3 Slipped Liners 4.0 P38A

Hi,

Thanks for your replies and thoughts....I'm glad no one is mentioning my neglected black V anymore.....if I was a woman I would be rather offended! (Edit- Damn....should have been quicker writing this reply)

There is no doubt that the engine needs a major refit. It would be nice to have a couple of months of extra time up my sleeve to take my time building up a new motor.

I was concerned about fitting a new piston in the liner that has slipped in the past....was not sure if the tighter fit of new rings would increase the likleyhood of the liner slipping again. The idea of pinning the liner sounds ok, but I don't want to do anything that will make the block useless.....incase I go the route of having new liners installed in it. I was reading this topic about pinning liners:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery-...-thoughts.html

The guy concluded :

Quote:

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So my conclusion to this experience is:

1. Always make sure your cooling system is in top condition.
2. If you have a slipped liner, pinning the liners might buy you some time, however, loose liners are usually an indication of a bigger problem that needs to be addressed.

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I know my cooling system is A1 - I've, as a matter of course, and to avoid any problems (slipped liners?) replaced the water pump, thermostat, hoses, temp sender, heater O rings, expansion tank top, viscous coupling...none had any issues, but I figured I would avoid any problems, or breakdowns. The radiator was new when I bought the car. I've never had to add coolant, except when flushing/changing coolant. The temp gauge has generally hung over the half way mark, maybe 1 graduation higher on 40 degree days.

That makes me think that the liners will stay put for now, but pinning would offer a reliable stop gap measure to buy some time. I think it's plain for all to see that a new engine / rebuild is the only long term solution to guarantee reliability, and is what I WILL have to do....If I do decide to pin, and repair (as a stop gap) I'll take more photo's so maybe others can get an idea of the pitfalls. I figure it might be worth a try, just for the fun of it.

I've got more reading to do.

Thanks again for all your advice.

Regards,

Bruce

Does anyone have any suggestions as to the casue of the piston damage?

Is it possible that happened when the liner slipped?

I can't for the life of me figure out what caused the damage, and where the pieces went...they must have been removed or repaired previously, (yet the damaged piston was left in place).....there is no damage to the exhaust valve......and they (metal pieces) weren't in the cylinder.

Any advice gratefully received.

Thanks,

Bruce

I think the top ring caught on the top edge of the liner and broke the land away.
I was not going to post again but seeing you asked.
I had another close look at your first photos and while 1 liner appears to be still at the bottom , another seems to be moving up and down ( no carbon above)

Regards Philip A

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PhilipA

Its's not only me who says it.
RPi Engineering - V8 Engines



We all need to start somewhere, and this is for sure the best and most reliable place to start!

Take a good look inside even if only through the oil filler hole.

Oh, and you will need a torch, a Penlight is best.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...017/07/593.jpg A good look inside the rocker covers through the oil hole will help you to determine the internal condition (and the minimum parts you will need for a successful job).
if your are unsure, it will fall into one of the following categories.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...016/04/266.jpgSilver Alloy surfaces? Sounds like a new engine
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...016/04/266.jpgBrown tarnished? Very low mileage, dark brown? Perhaps higher mileage, but well cared for.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...016/04/266.jpgBlack? Getting poor, a full rebuild/replacement should be considered.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...016/04/266.jpgBlack Coated & becoming dense? Very poor condition, A rebuild is normally required
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...016/04/266.jpgBlack and very sludgy? Dead on its feet.

You can be sure this method is a reliable way to determine what you have, and to help you decide what you should do.



Are one of the recognised experts "presumptuous" as well?
I can assure you that the V in my engine is honey brown at 208KK.

Regards Philip A

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Hello Philip ,

almost everything is up to interpretation .

Here , your looking at pics of an engine with a broken piston what you`ve quoted is to do with general wear and not failure of a part .

The internet and books are wonderful but sometimes there is no substitute for real world knowledge .

Peter

I would like to thank every single person that has posted in the thread. I really appreciate the advice, knowledge, and experience you all have. I would especially like to thank PLR, for taking a huge amount of his time to ask questions, look at photo's, diagnose, and take a real interest....Mate, I really appreciate it. Nobody can deny the engine has issues; major issues.....it's easy to say "just replace it"......I'm of the opinion that worst case - it's a new engine anyway.....I'll live with the cost....I'll figure something out.....let's see if we can learn something useful from my misfortune.....that maybe others can benefit from; other than the standard "it's stuffed", "get a reco or new engine".

We all share a common affinity to Land Rover's / Range Rover's.....and I like the fact that we all have different takes on things....I find it kind of balances things out......my "black V" is really of no consequence, it's a technicality......however it happened......It's nothing that a bath (in solvent) and a paint brush, or a new engine won't won't fix.

Thanks everyone, for all the help. I hope you have a great Christmas.

Regards,

Bruce

Hello Bruce ,

i too had another look at your liners pics and i`m guessing the 2nd pic is the faulty piston cylinder ?

It appears from the pic that it has moved further down than the other 2 ?

Philips suggestion that top ring has hooked up on the liner top is feasible and prove-able .

If you are able to measure the distance down from the deck to the base of the chamfer on the liner and when you have the piston removed measure the distance from the top to the base of the top ring and along with the piston top to deck height ( which i have somewhere ) and confirm that the liner is sittin on the 360 base the figures will tell if it is possible .

If before you got the car it was overheated and broke rings in that cylinder and had the rings and not piston replaced this could be another reason for the breaks .

We have two 4.0ltr blocks one i bought new in 2004 and it lives in our 85RR the other resides in a crate in the shed it has one top hat liner fitted but as they do the cylinder beside it failed also it had done 100k when the tophat was fitted it another 20k before the cylinder beside let go it came from a 1998 P38a . If i ever get it fixed it will go into our softy LSE .

When i suggested a replacement piston could be fitted , i was not meaning a new piston partly for the reason you mention but also because if the top ring has gone over the liner , i would suggest as an interim the second hand piston would be fitted using the rings that are on the broken piston because they have worn to the cylinder shape and the top ring would be left off because as it is the ring won`t be sealing very well but it would still be doing something so there would be a difference .
If the ring hasn`t and can`t catch on the liner i`d use all three rings .

The other option would be to leave it as it is and put the heads back on .

This i think you could do if you can be sure the the piston break is not a recent thing as in it`s been this way since before you owned it .

These suggestions of coarse involve risk and as i say what i type can`t be 100% because i`m not looking at it in the flesh but if it needs to be used it could give time to weigh up your options and i say could not will for the same reason .

Peter

PLR Peter can't you post without denigrating others? How do you know my experience, and how confident of you to decry RPis experience.

I have not commented on what I think are your "kooky" ideas which I think have a real danger of heartbreak for the poster.To persevere with the engine as it is is in my opinion absurd.

What is now holding the sleeves in at the bottom. It is obvious there is no cast ledge as there is in later engines.

I have never seen any record of sleeves sinking as much as the ones in this engine, and a standard sleeve length would mean they are protuding into the crankcase below the cast block. I wonder how much more movement it would take for one to pick up a crankshaft throw.

Unless of course these are shorter sleeves that have been fitted later.

Every photo I have of the crankcase shows the sleeves about 1/4 inch above the casting edge, and those sleeves have dropped more than a 1/4 inch.
Have a look at this site , which is one of the top specilists in the USA, and includes cutaways of a failed 4.0 litre. See where the sleeves sit in relation to the bottom of the casting.

JE Robison Service — the blog: The last word on Land Rover liner failures - I hope!
BUT PLR will of course consider Robisons and RPi to not know much.

Regards Philip A

Gentlemen!

Please limit your posts to helping Bruce,, or refrain from further posts,,

G`day Bruce ,

was thinking about your machine yesterday and it dawned .

If you look at the liners that haven`t moved , at the very top you will see where the top ring is at its highest point and where the liner is untouched by the ring .

It will just look like a circle/ring around 6mm down from the deck , should be able to find at least 1 that`s clearly the travel mark from the 5 that haven`t moved .

You`ll be able to measure to the lower part of the mark and add 1.6mm for ring thickness and relate that measurement to the 3 dropped liners to check if the top ring can catch . not well explained .

From the top of the liner down to where the top of the ring travel is measured then add 1.6mm for ring thickness .

The other thing is that if you look at the 3 dropped liners and they have been like they are a while , they may show different travel marks to the one that haven`t dropped but they may not too because it takes i while to happen and by looking at this you may be able to judge how recent the liner drop was .

It may be that the difference is only that the untouched part of the very top of the liner as on the liners that haven`t dropped is lighter or maybe just marked .

Hope you can grasp what i`m getting at , i realise it`s not well explained .

Peter