Thread: P38 Coil Suspension Conversion

i actually have the 4 schroeder valve, and to this day haven't had to use it.

That's why it hasn't failed.

Do a trip & no matter what tools/spares you take, you'll need what you've left behind.

Originally Posted by redandy3575

Yeah.....i'd have to disagree with you on this one in numerous ways. Firstly in my opinion, and my opinion only, if converting to coils is your thing then don't settle for a Range Rover P38 but rather a series 1 or 2 Discovery which most models have the coils anyway and would be more up your alley in what your looking for as the airbags suspension (and i've said this before) is one of the main key features of why you or rather i chose the Range Rover in the first place.

Converting to coils is not “my thing” but after having done my research on other P38 owners experiences by the way of the internet I chose to convert the suspension to coils in order to eliminate what one Land Rover mechanic that I spoke to referred to as “90% of the problems with the P38”. In the same way as you didn't purchase a P38 because you simply had to have a vehicle with airbag suspension I didn't purchase my vehicle because I just had to have a vehicle that I could convert to coil springs. So when you suggest that I should purchase a Discovery I draw to your attention to other factors that came into play as I contemplated owning a P38. Some of the things that I considered were the look of the vehicle, the sound proofing, street credibility, its off road capability and the price of the vehicle as well as other more subjective ones.

Originally Posted by redandy3575

By doing my research found that the airbag suspension setup along with BeCM system reads and sensors the terrain by interacting with the springs, something you cannot do with coils as the suspension in a coil setup is working totally independant.

Correct me if I'm wrong bit my recollection is that there is a 20 second delay in the the activation of the airbag system in relation to the positioning of the suspension potentiometers, so that the system does not respond to the terrain as you drive the vehicle over undulating terrain. When you are driving in a particular setting the air springs operate exactly the same way as coil springs. If the system was that active you would find that your air compressor would wear out in a relatively short period of time.

Originally Posted by redandy3575

Not only that, but your taking a step backward in off-road technology (bit like going from coils back to leaf springs). As far as reliability is concerned, airbag springs are only going to be as reliable as either yourself or your mechanic is willing to thoroughly inspect them properly upon your regular service interval. Ignore it, and like everything else, they will fail at some point.

What you are stating here is correct and this is where part of the problem stems. My experience is that a substantial percentage of vehicle owners try to get as much driving out of the vehicle with the minimum amount of money spent on them in maintenance. The end result is that the system will fail.

Originally Posted by redandy3575

I might add coils are really no different, they too suffer from metal fatigue and prolonged sagging over time, and like airbags, they too need regular inspection.

You are correct on this point also – so if you are converting to coil springs do your homework and be sure to buy them from a quality source.

Originally Posted by redandy3575

As someone else here on AULRO mentioned, airbags are now very commonly used not only in modern 4WD's but truck, buses & cars that are either towing or hauling heavy weights, so they're not uncommon, just different that's all. And as far as flexiblity is concerned, i run stock standard airsprings on mine, and they still out flex your typical japanese 4WD in more ways than one. Running over 2 inch lift might sound ok to you, but i reckon your insurance company would want to keep a close eye on you as that's above the legal limit within most insurance guidelines and you may find yourself driving uninsured unless going with a specialist insurance mob.

Do as I did, inform the insurance company of what you have done and they may want to have a look at the vehicle, if they refuse to insure it with the lift then go to another insurance company. Keep in mind that a substantial number of 4WD vehicles that are driving on our roads are lifted more than 4” as well as running tyres that substantially larger than the tyres that came with them when new. If you are going to make an issue of a moderate suspension lift then you should also question the legality of running oversize tyres for a given vehicle. While I am declaring a lift above 2” on my vehicle I can categorically state that my vehicle looks like a low rider compared to some of the pictures that I have seen of air suspension vehicles on this forum with a “legal” 2 inch lift

Originally Posted by PaulP38a

In addition to Redandy's comments on the legalities of a +2" lift, there is also the insurance aspect of it all. There was never a coil sprung P38 model released by Land Rover, so you would be relying on the ignorance of your insurance company should you ever have to make a claim. This is also true of your local RTA and authorised vehicle inspectors.

Most of the time you will be lucky as these folks generally have no idea about air suspension and think of it as something that only goes on trucks, and as load levelling assist.

When I transferred my lifted P38 from Qld to NSW the inspector had no concerns about the 2" lift and 33" tyres but asked me for an engineers certificate for the air suspension. I just showed him the owners manual

While there has never been a coil sprung P38 model released by Land Rover a 2 inch lift coil spring conversion is accepted by both vehicle inspectors and insurance companies as long as the spring rate is above that of the air springs that the vehicle came with. To the best of my knowledge you will struggle to get coil springs with a lower spring rate than the standard air springs of the P38 under normal load.

As you point out the vehicle inspector that inspected your vehicle had no concerns about the 2 inch lift nor the 33 inch tyres. Look, some of these inspectors have 4WD vehicles that have been lifted and modified and its not fair to assume that they are ignorant when it comes to the various 4WD vehicles. These inspectors are human and have a fair bit of discretion on how tough they will be when inspecting your vehicle. Depending on what the issue that they are dealing with is they can and will (in my experience) show leniency when it comes to common sense in regard to some modifications outside of stated legal limits – tyre sizes and suspension lifts are instances where I have seen a great deal of discretion used.

Originally Posted by PaulP38a

I applaud P38oncoils' write-up and respect his decision to convert the best 4x4xFar in to just another 4x4. When you own the car, it is yours to do with as you wish.

When people contact me with issues on their EAS, usually due to lack of maintenance, I sometimes get asked about coil conversion. My standard response is "buy a non-SLS Disco 2 and sell the P38 to someone who will look after it". If you have deep pockets and are prepared to let a mechanic learn on your car, or are prepared to let LR replace components rather than repair them... that is a hands-off approach to P38 ownership.

IMHO the P38 is now an enthusiast vehicle that requires an owner willing to maintain some parts of the vehicle him/herself, the EAS being the most obvious... Not because it is difficult or expensive (it is quite simple and cheap to maintain) but because people get scared off by dealers and workshops who don't know/care and want to charge silly amounts to do anything on it.

While I have had to do a couple of in-field repairs to the EAS during off-road playtimes, the time taken was less than recovering my coil-sprung companions from situations where they could not keep up. BTW the only time my EAS is set to high mode (less articulation) is when doing water crossings.

The main design flaw in the EAS is that LR did not include a means to individually inflate the bags in the event of component or system failure. This is the cause of most EAS horror stories. There are several variants of my (i mean our, it is actually Andy's design) EAS Emergency Bypass Kit out there, or just carry around 4 Schroeder valves. If you are an off-roader you will already have an air compressor in the boot for tyre inflation. A punctured bag is not the end of the world (hopefully you carry a spare) and it is quite possible to carry on with 3 bags operated manually to compensate. Coils fade and break too, with more devastating results as you can't pump up the other coils to compensate.

Cheers, Paul.

Thank you for your kind words Paul. A P38 is only an enthusiasts vehicle if it is in the hands of an enthusiast. There is a reason for so many P38s ending up in wrecking yards (in my opinion) prematurely. The fact is that not all people that want to own a P38 have either the capability nor perseverance to keep on top of maintaining the air suspension system (as well as other annoyances). The EAS has broken many an owner of a P38 and included in those are some that have been ardent mouthpieces for the benefits of the system. As you know Arnott Industries who manufactures the Gen III airsprings that are in your vehicle also manufacture the coil spring conversion kit that I use in my vehicle (the springs are from Old Man Emu). It can't be all bad.

I realise all the benefits of the system but I am not blind to its drawbacks and neither are you. As you point out there are design flaws in the system that compound the issues of substandard maintenance and this is where the main cause of the “90% of the problems with the P38” lies. Be fair when approached by a person that wants to own a P38 and don't deny him the chance of doing so even if he may choose to bypass “90% of the problems with the P38” by installing a coil suspension system, it doesn't have to be a lift that is over 2 inches. If an individual wants to own a P38 please don't condemn him to owning a Discovery, which is a totally different vehicle, if it is a P38 that he wants for all the other benefits either perceived or real. Keep in mind that each match-up between an happy owner and a P38 is one less P38 for the wrecking yards

I own a P38 on coils it came with them and passed a roadworthy to do so i have since changed them to 2" over King coils with Bilstiens. Recently participated in the Alpine challenge in the P38 over three days from Walhalla to Harriettville and was really happy i have done some 40,00kms since buying the old girl and absolutely love it (when it isn't broken or being stubborn) I have a D3 on air and love it also but out of the two i feel more comfortable out in the bush in the P38 on coils as the chance of breaking a coil as compared to stuffing an air bag i believe is less. Each to there own when it comes to cars mine is mine and i like it that way yours is yours and you like it that way if you didn't you could always buy a Nissan or Crapota.
Gippslander.

A hell of a lot of words here to say very little. Boring, boring, boring. Doesn't matter how you look at it, a p38 is an air suspension equipped vehicle by design and build of it's manufacturer.

Do what you want with yours to make yourself feel ok about it. But don't tell me mines any less for being the real deal. If the systems were such a big problem LR would have ****ed them off after the P38, not put versions of them into just about everything released since.

I reckon you have lobotomised and castrated your version of the car LR originally built. But hey, if it makes it easy for you to live with enjoy! Myself and many other purist enthusiasts will happily do the easy yards to keep ours true to the original "Best of Breed" design standards. Instead of just going the simple backwards option of dumbing them down.

Perhaps we can also focus on taking the bull**** out of EAS being such a big drama. It's a robust system when kept in good order. "80% of issues" is one "grease monkeys" questionable personal opinion based on his experiences.

You should have asked that fella what the true "root causes" of him developing that opinion were... Like lack of servicing and maintenance and general wear and tear. And quite possibly his dumb fear of the unknown through having never reco'd one completely himself.

Anyway, let's keep saving them from the scrap heap by educating on the ease and low cost of DIY EAS maintenance and repair. And that way at least the ones we save will be original and true to the manufacturers intended design.

Why did this turn into an EAS pro con thread?, these are all you see, some think it's a huge bravado thing they saved the EAS, big ****ing whoopy, it's just a **** stinking car, carve the thing up, do as you please, coils for you? Cool, nothing wrong with that, EAS? Yay..... Whatever, do some of you really harp on so much about EAS in the real world? Cause seriously, it's a modified p38 that goes bush and that's a good thing

Originally Posted by rovercare

Why did this turn into an EAS pro con thread?, these are all you see, some think it's a huge bravado thing they saved the EAS, big ****ing whoopy, it's just a **** stinking car, carve the thing up, do as you please, coils for you? Cool, nothing wrong with that, EAS? Yay..... Whatever, do some of you really harp on so much about EAS in the real world? Cause seriously, it's a modified p38 that goes bush and that's a good thing

We're just having a friendly debate that's all, i don't think there's any hard feelings amongst us.

I as an enthusiast with not just P38, but cars in general see the real value with vehicles kept to originality with the best possible care over time. Let's look at say a Phase 3 XY Ford Falcon GT ' Shaker', there are so many aftermarket conversions out there to make just about any XY falcon look and run like the real thing but.............they're not real & genuine. Despite how the aftermarket conversion looks and sounds, they're not worth 2 bob when going to sell it, why, because a cashed up enthusiast will know and only a fool will fall for the fake. Now having said that, i don't mind some mild aftermarket changes to lightly spice up the looks a little without doing any strucktual changes i can settle for that as can many enthusiasts, but drastic changes will reduce the vehicles appeal.

Where is all this going?? well if i and most likely many of you not only P38 enthusiast, but LR in general will look out for when purchasing your next LR is how well the vehicle has been cared and maintained in its past life. I know when looking around online at other later P38's (1999 - 2001), as soon as the word 'coil conversion' is mentioned, i immediately stop looking at that vehicle and move on. Cause to me that says the vehicle has had somewhat half its guts torn out and is not worth anywhere near their rediculous asking price. Again, only a fool will pay it not knowing what has been done, (bit like that Car history advert with that blue Volvo).

But look, at the end of the day if coil conversion is your thing, it's your car, and as Paul said, you can do whatever pleases you. But one thing is for certain that i won't be the one buying off you when selling it.

Also regarding lift kits, i see them as more trouble than their worth as it involves more than just simply lifting a vehicle and again will require changes both strucktualy and mechanically. Personally i'm not a huge fan of lifts, which again with air suspension you do not need as you can adjust your ride height to suit the road condition, instead of sitting up high all the time swaying like the leaning tower of Pisa. Your insurance company may be oblivious to this, but i can guarantee you one thing that when it comes to paying out and their bottom line is at stake here, they''ll find something to ping you on, and if you don't know your legality limits and have the right paperwork (e'g engineer certificate) your on your own.
A lot of 4WD's with these oversized tyres and 4 inch lifts you'll find that they'll either have specialist insurance (i.e Shannons) or worse, no insurance at all, and are really taking a gamble.