Hand vs electric winch: solo travelling

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Originally Posted by Tank

Trying to work out why most people think you can't winch backwards with an electric winch mounted on the front bar.
That bottom roller on the fairlead is not there for looks.
I have winched out of a bog and other impassable places by running the winch cable under the vehicle and attaching it to a tree behind and pulled my self free with no problems (another reason I don't use synthetic rope).

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On this I just gotta say, for the typical setup - that's evil! On so many levels! The purpose of the "bottom roller on the fairlead" (or any of the other rollers), in a typical front mounted winch setup, is most assuredly NOT for bearing high loads, nor for facilitating wire winch rope being deflected through large angles for loading! (180 degrees! Around a < 2" roller!)

Whilst it can work, can be done, please enlighten me on how you do that in a reasonable & safe, without inflicting damage to the wire rope?

Someone (was it you, Tank?) rightly wrote up how incorrectly sized snatch blocks can torture wire rope. Key points being decently sized pully diameter and right sized groove to support the wire rope properly.

How can the typical fairlead roller (less than 2" dia?, and not grooved at all) be anything but destructive to wire rope deflected more than just a few degrees!?

Got 12" diameter lower roller? Bottom edge gives line of sight clear pull underneath out to the rear? Maybe that's an order of magnitude less evil, but still is evil!

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Originally Posted by tact

Watching wording indeed please. I never referred to "rigged to (dis)advantage" - the term with a specific technical meaning. Tried keeping all I wrote non-technical. Unless apples and oranges are in the riggers handbook too - then my apologies.

I wrote "no MA at all. disadvantage only." The disadvantage being frictional losses added to the load burden with no mechanical advantage to mitigate.

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thats the point I was trying to get you to clear up.. whose doing the pulling, if the person in the chair isnt doing the pulling as well then you're correct, but if the person in the chair is doing the pulling then you're off the mark.

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Originally Posted by tact

You are sitting in the chair. Rope up and over a pully back to your hands. You pull 1M of rope. How much higher off the ground is your bum in the chair? (1M)

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no, you go up half a meter... 50cm of rope comes from the left side of the pully, 50cm of rope comes from the right side of the pully.

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Originally Posted by tact

You are sitting in the chair. Same chair. Same rope. Your mate standing behind you pulls in 1M of rope. How much higher is your bum in the chair now off the ground? (1M)

(All "apples")

Now it's time for oranges. You in the same chair. Same rope up and over the same single pulley. Difference this time, you feed the rope around a pulley attached to your harness/chair ... And you or your mate pull up towards the first pulley (above you). You pull in 1M of rope. Your bum goes up how far? (1/2M)

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33cms. assuming the rope starts at your chair, goes up to the top pully, back to a pully on the top of your chair, and then your mate lifts upwards, what you've constructed in this configuration is a 3:1 rigged to advantage.

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Originally Posted by tact

Oranges example is what you have in a normal 4x4 vehicle equipped with a winch and rope is passed through a remote snatch block and back to the vehicle. (Wind 1M of winch rope onto the drum and car moves forward 1/2m)

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how is this different to the situation in the chair above (i turned it blue)

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Originally Posted by tact

Tank, all your experience and all you write is absolutely correct for situations you are writing about. Eg The bosuns chair self lift thing. Sit in harness at one end of the rope, round a single pulley, pull the other end. No MA at all. Disadvantage only.

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which way does this work? as per your description I turned blue above or the way in your vehicle pulling itself on a snatch block? why does doing it vertically as a bosuns chair make it any different to doing it laid out on the ground

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Originally Posted by Toxic_Avenger

Everyone seems to love their tirfor winches.
I have a high lift jack and a jack-mate block to replace the base. With the addition of a few lengths of chain to my existing rigging, this can be used as a (slow) winching device.

What's peoples thoughts on this?

My reasoning for this route might be along the lines of the ability to lift vertically with the hi lift as well as horizontally. Electric winch is also available.

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yep, I use the tirfor as an adjuster on anchoring gear and use chains, IF i carry the tirfor I carry 2 chains and a dog so that I can (in reality its usually just the extra chain and dog as I carry a drag chain anyway) use it as a winch/anchor tensioner as needed.



Now lets really set the cat in with the pidgeons...

whats the difference between 1:1 set to disadvantage, 1:1 set to advantage, 2:1 set to disadvantage and 2:1 set to advantage...

and I'll give you all a hint.... it all depends on which instruction I read....

I'll leave that there for a day and then give a wordy on how its all written up...

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Originally Posted by vnx205

Have you ever tried this? I can't believe how few people seem to have actually tried it. As a young teenager I used to regularly do it and the rope didn't pass through a pulley at the top. It just went over a wooden rafter. I had to overcome the friction of the rope passing over a square hardwood rafter and I could still manage it.

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Fantastic! You try it again. Please.

Throw a rope over a beam. Tie nothing to either end. Pull a meter down on one side. The other side of the rope goes up how far? (1M)

Please physically try this. It's amazing.

Now - tie one end of the rope to yourself. Please. I insist. You must actually do this.

Now pull a meter down on the other end. You go up how far? (1m). Now pass the free end of the rope to your mate and ask him to pull in another meter. How much higher did you go up? (1m)

This is NOT the setup when a vehicle with a front mounted winch spools out wire rope which is run out to a snatch block and hooked back to the vehicle.

Proof : winch in a meter of wire rope. Vehicle moves 1/2 m

Let you figure out why. I have explained already.

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Originally Posted by tact

Fantastic! You try it again. Please. I have tried it. Have you?

Throw a rope over a beam. Tie nothing to either end. Pull a meter down on one side. The other side of the rope goes up how far? (1M)

Please physically try this. It's amazing. It isn't amazing. It is exactly what you would expect.

Now - tie one end of the rope to yourself. Please. I insist. You must actually do this. I have. Dozens of times.

Now pull a meter down on the other end. You go up how far? (1m).No. Now pass the free end of the rope to your mate and ask him to pull in another meter. How much higher did you go up? (1m)Yes

This is NOT the setup when a vehicle with a front mounted winch spools out wire rope which is run out to a snatch block and hooked back to the vehicle. Yes it is if you are the one on both ends of the rope.

Proof : winch in a meter of wire rope. Vehicle moves 1/2 m

Let you figure out why. I have explained already.

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Have you looked at my diagram?

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Originally Posted by vnx205

Have you looked at my diagram?

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Yes I looked. It shows a 1/2 meter pull.

If you pull in half a meter, the chair rises 1/2m .... (And yes there is a meter of rope below the chair.... But you didn't pull in a meter. You only pulled in half a meter, the other half meter of rope below the chair is because the chair moved up half a meter!)

Pull in half a meter, rise half a meter. 1:1

Pull in 1m and you rise 1m. (And amazingly there are 2m of rope below where the chair is now, but you only pulled in 1m!). Still 1:1

And it doesn't matter if it's you pulling yourself (intended) or your mate over there is doing the pulling... Pull 1m of rope down, chair goes up 1m. 1:1

Winch in a meter of rope when using a snatch block and hooking back to the vehicle. You move the vehicle 1/2 m. 2:1

You started with the end of the rope in your hand. You pull enough rope down so that there is a metre of rope dangling below your hand. Yet you claim that you only pulled in half a metre? Surely a metre of rope passed through your hands.

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Originally Posted by tact

Yes I looked. It shows a 1/2 meter pull.

If you pull in half a meter, the chair rises 1/2m .... (And yes there is a meter of rope below the chair.... But you didn't pull in a meter. You only pulled in half a meter, the other half meter of rope below the chair is because the chair moved up half a meter!) You raised yourself half a metre by pulling in a metre of rope.

Pull in half a meter, rise half a meter. 1:1

Pull in 1m and you rise 1m. (And amazingly there are 2m of rope below where the chair is now, but you only pulled in 1m!). Still 1:1

And it doesn't matter if it's you pulling yourself (intended) or your mate over there is doing the pulling... Pull 1m of rope down, chair goes up 1m. 1:1It does matter. It gives quite a different result.

Winch in a meter of rope when using a snatch block and hooking back to the vehicle. You move the vehicle 1/2 m. 2:1

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Have you actually tried to pull yourself up using this method? I have.

I've pulled up a several tonne anchor with blocks and tackle on a ship. That's why I have an electric one:) Several hours of pain!

I do not have a hand one. When needed my mates have pulled from the electric bar mount under there trucks. :wasntme: Not such a great idea with wire but sounds feasible in an emergency.

With the low prices for good and often seldomly if ever used winches unless weight is an issue I suggest electric.

I do get to use mine a few times in the mountains but not at all often if MT tires are loaded. Not that I would like my MTs on for a long trip unless planning lots of mud or snow or very steep stuff.

To each his own, at least I understand what I'm doing is not 100% correct, BTW it is only 90 degrees not 180 degrees, this method has worked many times for me and have not had a problem, I'm aware of what is happening to the cable, but sometimes you need to compromise. What's the alternative, have 2 winches.
It is not an everyday occurrence and the winch cable has suffered no visible damage, unlike running it through a ****ty 4wd shop, one size fits all snatch block, bottom fairlead roller has no signs of damage either, horses for courses, Regards frank.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tact

On this I just gotta say, for the typical setup - that's evil! On so many levels! The purpose of the "bottom roller on the fairlead" (or any of the other rollers), in a typical front mounted winch setup, is most assuredly NOT for bearing high loads, nor for facilitating wire winch rope being deflected through large angles for loading! (180 degrees! Around a < 2" roller!)

Whilst it can work, can be done, please enlighten me on how you do that in a reasonable & safe, without inflicting damage to the wire rope?

Someone (was it you, Tank?) rightly wrote up how incorrectly sized snatch blocks can torture wire rope. Key points being decently sized pully diameter and right sized groove to support the wire rope properly.

How can the typical fairlead roller (less than 2" dia?, and not grooved at all) be anything but destructive to wire rope deflected more than just a few degrees!?

Got 12" diameter lower roller? Bottom edge gives line of sight clear pull underneath out to the rear? Maybe that's an order of magnitude less evil, but still is evil!

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Originally Posted by NavyDiver

I've pulled up a several tonne anchor with blocks and tackle on a ship. That's why I have an electric one:) Several hours of pain!

I do not have a hand one. When needed my mates have pulled from the electric bar mount under there trucks. :wasntme: Not such a great idea with wire but sounds feasible in an emergency.

With the low prices for good and often seldomly if ever used winches unless weight is an issue I suggest electric.

I do get to use mine a few times in the mountains but not at all often if MT tires are loaded. Not that I would like my MTs on for a long trip unless planning lots of mud or snow or very steep stuff.

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Completely agree that for simplicity & ease an electric winch looks good. The winch itself may not be so expensive but if you have to buy a winch bar as well as add on a decent installation it's not that cheap.

I had a winch on my hilux years ago and tackled a lot of hard HARD trails in the jungles. Sometimes solo. In 7yrs I used the winch to help myself out just once.

Maybe that means my definition of a HARD trail really means I am just not trying hard enough to get stuck properly. But to give example:
The Janda Baik trail is recognized by all Malaysian off-roaders in the know as a HARD trail. This is the trail that had me use my winch to save myself that one time in 7yrs.

One trip on that trail we started with my hilux, a long wheelbase LCII (troopy), a short wheelbase LCII, another long wheelbase LCII wagon, a jeep Cherokee, Nissan navara, and a Kia sorrento.

The jeep, Nissan, Kia all parked up after the first (easier) 1km. They jumped into the 4 Toyos. The next 6hrs we progressed 1.6km. Tough.

One section, maybe 100m long, took the short wheelbase LCII 45min and he had to break out his winch several times. (Seemed like every 10 meters!)

I was second vehicle. Cleared it in 38seconds. Still have the video of the "skippy run".
https://www.facebook.com/nwmclean/vi...0150644042044/
(It was a little steeper than it looks in the video, and the slippery clay in the washouts isn't obvious...)

Not intending to fit a winch or bullbar to the defender I bought new 2yrs ago. Will be careful not to go solo at all. Have a decent recovery kit (straps, shackles, shovel, axe, pick etc) and will always travel in good (well equipped) company.

A lot of serious obstacles only need the first guy to have a front winch for safety. After that it's safer generally to use safety/tow straps to give the guy behind a tug if needed.