Toe in or toe out

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Originally Posted by cjc_td5

The stage 1 supplement manual says 1.2-2.5mm toe OUT.

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yes - as above - that's 'cause they're constant 4WD

The other problem with toe out is when you hit the anchors hard you get even more toe out and the car will be all over the place. Fun in a panic stop.
What tyres are you running?
Do cross ply's have anything to do with what it says in the manual?
I know it makes a difference to camber settings. Less being required than radials.

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Originally Posted by timax

The other problem with toe out is when you hit the anchors hard you get even more toe out and the car will be all over the place. Fun in a panic stop.
What tyres are you running?
Do cross ply's have anything to do with what it says in the manual?
I know it makes a difference to camber settings. Less being required than radials.

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Is that question to me mate?
I run 235/85R16 radials on disco steel rims.
The manual does not differentiate between tyre types.

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Originally Posted by timax

The other problem with toe out is when you hit the anchors hard you get even more toe out and the car will be all over the place. Fun in a panic stop.
What tyres are you running?
Do cross ply's have anything to do with what it says in the manual?
I know it makes a difference to camber settings. Less being required than radials.

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And your Defender is running toe out.

Is it an issue under brakes? [wink11]

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Originally Posted by cjc_td5

Is that question to me mate?
I run 235/85R16 radials on disco steel rims.
The manual does not differentiate between tyre types.

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Possibly because they were originally fitted with cross ply tyres ? Just guessing here. What is the age of the car?
I only have experience with changing toe out settings for the racetrack . Comes down to car /tyre combo and what im comfortable with.
For example. Alfa GTV6 on radials i like 5mm toe out and 2 degrees negative camber. Better turn in with less understeer but dont let go of the wheel.
My PRB clubman on Cross-ply was zero toe and zero camber and with Radials zero toe and 1.5 degree negative camber.
Personally id just adjust toe to feel and camber to tyre ware .

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Originally Posted by rick130

And your Defender is running toe out.

Is it an issue under brakes? [wink11]

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My Defender is running toe in. How much i have no idea. Its fine under brakes , well for a Defender at least.

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Originally Posted by timax

My Defender is running toe in. How much i have no idea. Its fine under brakes , well for a Defender at least.

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ALL Defenders need toe OUT , unless of course you have a 2wd / part time conversion

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Originally Posted by timax

The other problem with toe out is when you hit the anchors hard you get even more toe out and the car will be all over the place. Fun in a panic stop.
<snip>.

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umm no, well maybe if your TRE , swivels or wheel bearings are stuffed , and thats not going to help your braking if you have Toe In.

Sorry that I keep referencing Iveco on a LandRover site but, they are legendary for having the worst brakes of any vehicle ever made and I've modified mine to the extent that it undoubtably has by far the best brakes of ANY Daily 4x4 in the entire universe, it now pulls up in the same distance as a modern family car , it stops exactly where I point it and it has toe out.

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Originally Posted by rick130

I'm not sure if I agree with that John.

I'm only visualising it but our scrub radius is unchanged, whether you run toe in or out.

At walking pace you will get a little increased scrub with toe out, that's how it increases turn in response at speed, and under power with a constant 4wd the wheels will try to toe in anyway but it doesn't matter where our camber is.

Things like track change through increasing rim offset affect scrub much more.

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Scrub radius is a separate issue. To quote from Wikipedia:-

"When a wheel is set up to have some camber angle, the interaction between the tire and road surface causes the wheel to tend to want to roll in a curve, as if it were part of a conical surface (camber thrust). This tendency to turn increases the rolling resistance as well as increasing tire wear. A small degree of toe (toe-out for negative camber, toe-in for positive camber) will cancel this turning tendency, reducing wear and rolling resistance."

I suspect that we are to some extent talking at cross purposes - there are multiple factors affecting what you want to achieve from suspension settings - stability, rolling resistance, steering effort etc. One point I note though when looking on line for more information on this question - nearly all on-line discussion is directed at independent suspension; we are discussing beam axles! At least with beam axles camber and toe do not change with spring deflection (although they do change as soon as you turn the steering wheel!).

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Originally Posted by JDNSW

Scrub radius is a separate issue. To quote from Wikipedia:-

"When a wheel is set up to have some camber angle, the interaction between the tire and road surface causes the wheel to tend to want to roll in a curve, as if it were part of a conical surface (camber thrust). This tendency to turn increases the rolling resistance as well as increasing tire wear. A small degree of toe (toe-out for negative camber, toe-in for positive camber) will cancel this turning tendency, reducing wear and rolling resistance."

I suspect that we are to some extent talking at cross purposes - there are multiple factors affecting what you want to achieve from suspension settings - stability, rolling resistance, steering effort etc. One point I note though when looking on line for more information on this question - nearly all on-line discussion is directed at independent suspension; we are discussing beam axles! At least with beam axles camber and toe do not change with spring deflection (although they do change as soon as you turn the steering wheel!).

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Hi John.

I started writing some stuff from my own experience working and modifying race car stuff years ago but it gets so damned complicated suffice to say what you said regarding "there are multiple factors affecting what you want to achieve" is pretty much it.