Articulation

[blitz]

Rather than looking at a lift per se, I am looking at the maximum articulation I can get out of my 93/4 disco. Currently it is set up for towing but as I really am not doing that anymore with her I want to get better ground contact in more extreme situations.

Any ideas?

it has a 2" lift, and I am running 275/75/16's under her, no offset rims ior flares but they are coming.

I am also looking at caster corrected radius arms for her.

Also are rose joints legal?

[nicho]

If you have the cash QT have what looks like an awesome set up for big articulation but I'm sure a few guys on here could tell you how to do it cheaper with hilux shocks and patrol this and that..

[frantic]

2 suggestions:
Have a look at gwyn lewis in wales(u.K) i got his front and rear dislocation cones, rear hooks which catch the spring and +2in shock mounts. What this does is raise or increase the length of shock you can put in without losing your upward movement. You end up going from the standard 8in travel landie shock to a 12 in travel shock, i used OME 60070L which are a cruiser front shock for a 3in lift in them. i also used dobinson/suspension stuff springs but you already have that covered.
Normally if you fit a longer shock to a standard mount you must fit bigger bump stop blocks which restricts upward travel but with raised shock mounts you get both directions. Terrafirma have coppied some of gwyn lewis's stuff but is not the same quality.
Another option is to use an X-spring set up with longer/relocated shocks.
Also look at front/ rear driveshafts double card. or wide angle.

[uninformed]

#1, what determies articulation.....alot of things, but the biggest thing is the links and there geometry, NOT the springs or shocks...they are more for controling the springs. As you have a Disco 1 you will have radius arms + panhard up front and trailing arms + Aframe at rear. The rear is very flexy. The front is ok but is restricted to about a 10-12inch travel shock....Bushes: in the front the best IMO is to run Superpro at the chassis end of radius arm and OEM rubber at axle end....Castor correcting bushes rob articulation so rule them out...as for cranked RA you may be better using the stock arms and slotting the swivel housings and rotating to return the castor....the pinion angle will be better doing this. In the rear the trailing arm bushes at chassis end will be binding a little at stock height and worse at +2inch...this is where cranked arms are a good idea. Get them with some adjustment in the length and you can dial in your pinion angle. Once agian IMO Superpro at chassis and rubber at axle. Aframe is fine as is and I run Superpro at chassis. A good quality ball joint, like the MR Automotive adjustable/greaseable is a good idea.

setting the travel, Up and down and where they max out: Up travel will be determined by your front tyres at full lock at full stuff and seeing where they rub components....this is where bumostops and springs come into play. bumpstops will stop the axle going further up (remember to allow at LEAST 30mm for the rubber to compress under a heavy landing/bump) but make sure your coils are not "bound" ie fully compressed BEFORE the bumpstop is touched. Same with rear, look for rubbing...cutting may be an option.

Spring rates will allow different tunes to what you like as will shock valving. Longer shocks will need new towers as the closed length will probably be too long when at full up travel and stuff the shock. The rear shock mount at chassis is at a horrible angle....look at the disco 2 rear mount, this is a better angle.

longer brake lines will probably needed.

IMO is all about balance....no point having 3 inches of travel in the front and 30 in the rear...I prefer retaind springs for balance and traction.

cheers,
Serg

[wagoo]

A quick and cheap experiment that shows it isn't the std springs and dampers that is restricting front articulation, but the axle end radius arm bushings.
Drive up an articulation ramp or similar until a front wheel lifts, then try it with the right hand front radius arm bolt removed and notice how much further the vehicle articulates before wheel lift occurrs. you might want to disconnect the drooping wheels brake hose bracket from the body mount before doing this though.
While articulating, it would also be worth noting how much more level the vehicles body is.This demonstrates how a balanced front/rear suspension setup can provide greater stability in some circumstances in extreme terrain.
So called holey radius arm bushes can improve articulation to a degree,at the expense of short bushing life.But if noting how far the front of the radius arm that has had the bolt removed dislodges from its hanger during the experiment,this would indicate holey bushes could only make a cmparatively small improvement.
Bloody Hell! it has taken me 45 minutes to type out this post because the 'l' and the 'o' keys on my keypad keep freezing.
Talk about selflessness and dedication to helping out ones fellow man.
Wag0o.

[blitz]

In no particular order:

Cranked trailing arms sounds good.

longer schockie tower makes sense (and obviously brake lines)

caster corrected radius arms V slotted swivel hubs, I need to research as I dont think I get how slotted hubs can be better? or I am just slow tonight

If you have the cash QT have what looks like an awesome set up for big articulation but I'm sure a few guys on here could tell you how to do it cheaper with hilux shocks and patrol this and that..

So Nicho when I googled QT I mostly got Queensland Time umm can you elaborate?

gwyn lewis, now I hate you he is making all the sort of stuff I am sort of thinking of.

the geometry was why I was thinking of the rose joints as they give more movement than a rubber bush

well I will ponder all you have written

[uninformed]

pinon angle: think of how the vehicle is set up stock from the factory....if the front axle articulates or goes into down travel the stock angles for the pinion/Tcase work ...now adding longer springs is just pushing the axle down.....it gets to a point where at about 2.5 + inch lift on the springs you will need a double carden propshaft like in the front of a Disco 2...now rotating the whole front axle so it returns the castor lost due to the spring lift, only worsens the pinion angle and the proshaft wants to bind etc....so leave the RA's and the axle case alone and just rotate the swivel balls back....after all it is the swivel balls with the king pin bearings that set the castor.....

[uninformed]

A quick and cheap experiment that shows it isn't the std springs and dampers that is restricting front articulation, but the axle end radius arm bushings.
Drive up an articulation ramp or similar until a front wheel lifts, then try it with the right hand front radius arm bolt removed and notice how much further the vehicle articulates before wheel lift occurrs. you might want to disconnect the drooping wheels brake hose bracket from the body mount before doing this though.
While articulating, it would also be worth noting how much more level the vehicles body is.This demonstrates how a balanced front/rear suspension setup can provide greater stability in some circumstances in extreme terrain.
So called holey radius arm bushes can improve articulation to a degree,at the expense of short bushing life.But if noting how far the front of the radius arm that has had the bolt removed dislodges from its hanger during the experiment,this would indicate holey bushes could only make a cmparatively small improvement.
Bloody Hell! it has taken me 45 minutes to type out this post because the 'l' and the 'o' keys on my keypad keep freezing.
Talk about selflessness and dedication to helping out ones fellow man.
Wag0o.

Careful Bill,

doing that creates a very dodgy rig on and offroad....while the body may be more level on the ramp, from everything I have read from those who have done it and also run a single pinned/hinged RA say that they articulate like buggery but are as unstable as the american dollar. These were popular on the ford RA rigs in the USA abot 10 years ago....very few run them now.

[wagoo]

Careful Bill,

doing that creates a very dodgy rig on and offroad....while the body may be more level on the ramp, from everything I have read from those who have done it and also run a single pinned/hinged RA say that they articulate like buggery but are as unstable as the american dollar. These were popular on the ford RA rigs in the USA abot 10 years ago....very few run them now.

You are of course correct Serg. But I was not and never would advocate using a hinged RA or removing a bolt to gain extra offroad flex.Just offering the idea as a very quick and easy means of demonstrating which suspension components are really restricting articulation.After re reading that post I realise I was not clear on that point.
I can't see large articulation improvements being available with std length RAs without reorganising everything.Adapting Glen Dobbins X link design may be an option where space for an upper link for a 3link conversion isn't available.
Wagoo.

[uninformed]

No worries Bill, I think I miss read a little. A guy over on pirate, cut one of the bushes off the axle end of one RA for his rover and re welded it on so it was closer... He seemed to think it worked ok.