LPG as Refrigerant

**123rover50** · 11th March 2011, 06:33 AM

While doing some research I typed the above heading into google.
An interesting paper by the tech dept of Uni of NSW on LPG as refrigerants.
They are being used more commonly than we are lead to believe.
R600 is butane
R290 is propane
R600a is iso butane.
Care 30 is a mix of butane and propane and apparently is a drop in replacement for R12 and R 314.

They also do tests on safety regarding leaks etc , and the stuff is more environmentally friendly than the current batch. Of course the refrigerant manufacturers are not happy.
Someone with more ability than I might post a link as it is interesting reading.
Didiman

**rick130** · 11th March 2011, 07:00 AM

I don't have time ATM to post a full reply on the pros and cons, but FWIW all Electrolux/Westinghouse/Kelvinator fridges currently made in Australia are filled with hydrocarbon refrigerants.
They only require approx. 50g of charge on average.
They are very efficient and the explosion/fire risk is virtually nil.

I've also removed a hydrocarbon refrigerant from a commercial coolroom system (roo/pig chiller) as it had no safety systems in place in case of a leak. (total system held 4+kg of refrigerant)

Auto/household LPG is inappropriate as it isn't clean/dry enough and the balance of propane/butane isn't standardised.

**Pedro_The_Swift** · 11th March 2011, 07:06 AM

when you have time Rick,, that would make interesting reading

I believe ladas proposed this way back,,,

havent heard from him in a while,,

**p38arover** · 11th March 2011, 09:10 AM

There are a number of posts about this in the LPG area - many of which were dismissive of it as dangerous.

As Pedro mentioned, Ladas is the expert. His company (bought out by a multinational) did a lot of development work on this and they manufacture and sell hydrocarbon refrigerants.

**rick130** · 11th March 2011, 11:40 AM

Ladas sent me some excellent info, unfortunately ATM it isn't really viable in small/medium commercial and industrial refrigeration but this will be changing as there is currently a worldwide shortage of one of the main constituent in the 4 most common non ozone depleting refrigerants. (at a guess it's either pentafluroethane or difluromethane)

Apparently one of the major wholesalers was totally out of several types of the most common refrigerants at the beginning of last month, the other major wholesaler has cut adrift it's OEM customers so it has adequate supplies for trade use, and the smaller wholesalers are just plain struggling to get stocks of anything.

I'm awaiting an internal email from one of the biggest wholesalers in the country explaining the situation in full, but apparently China has discovered the huge amounts of electricity it can save by using R404A, R410A, etc compared to the old R22 (which is being phased out internationally) and R12 and R502 which have been gone from here since '92.

Anyway, this massive shortage of the 'synthetic' refrigerants will only be good for the 'natural' refrigerant market.

**LandieMan** · 11th March 2011, 11:55 AM

LPG being used as a commerical refrigerant killed and mamed a pile of fireman in NZ not so long ago.

The local brigade was responding to a "routine" alarm at a cool store and the place exploded. It was horrific.

Google "Tamamhere coolstore fire" if you're interested in the details.

Cheers, Landieman

**rick130** · 11th March 2011, 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by LandieMan

LPG being used as a commerical refrigerant killed and mamed a pile of fireman in NZ not so long ago.

The local brigade was responding to a "routine" alarm at a cool store and the place exploded. It was horrific.

Google "Tamamhere coolstore fire" if you're interested in the details.

Cheers, Landieman

Cheers.

Had a quick skim through some docs and it looks like a failure of legislation and reporting.

The inquiry identified nine different factors, any one of which could have avoided the risks and injuries to the responding firefighters:

HSNO regulations applied fully to this installation
prior notification to the Fire Service of hazardous substances at the premises
receipt of an application for approval of an evacuation scheme
pre-incident planning and familiarisation visit by local Fire Service staff
Fire Service awareness of the large-scale use of flammable refrigerants in New Zealand
warning signage at the premises
stenching agent present in refrigerant gas
flammable gas detection on the premises alerting crews
crews using a portable gas detector.

This indicates that the fundamental cause of the incident may lie in part in systemic defects in the regulatory environment and the communication between the various regulatory agencies. This is an issue that may deserve wider investigation by the Government.

Tamahere Icepak Coolstore report released

It wasn't a small scale local store or chiller either, it was a massive operation.

Icepak had converted most of the coolstore's cooling system to operate on Hychill Minus 50, a refrigerant made up of 95 per cent of highly flammable propane, but the Fire Service, local council and Government agencies were unaware of this.

About 400kg of Hychill Minus 400 was on site without the required safety certification. A location test certificate is required under Hazardous Goods and New Organisms (HSNO) legislation to certify plants with more than 100kg of flammable gas.

Tamahere Reports

That's a bloody lot of liquid propane.

AFAIK flammable gas detectors and automatic shut off isolating valves have to be a part of any reasonable sized installation here, I'll dig out the docs I have tonight.

The chiller I put back on conventional refrigerant held approx. 4-6kg and there was no way I was going to take a risk of a roo shooter opening the door one night with a fag hanging out of the corner of his mouth and having his whiskers singed or worse as the box (an insulated shipping container) was full of propane.

**scarry** · 11th March 2011, 09:48 PM

Originally Posted by rick130

The chiller I put back on conventional refrigerant held approx. 4-6kg and there was no way I was going to take a risk of a roo shooter opening the door one night with a fag hanging out of the corner of his mouth and having his whiskers singed or worse as the box (an insulated shipping container) was full of propane.

That is the main issue,as the majority of refrigerant leaks we get in cold rooms,cabinets,etc are in the evaporators.
You would only need to turn on an internal light or fan switch & the explosion would be massive......

**superquag** · 11th March 2011, 11:01 PM

Rick130, - could I interest you in a can (flammable or non-flammable propellent) of bug spray ?

This reaction reminds me of the Occ Health & Safety's cure for drowings... get rid of the water. Problem solved!

Better idea, though less impressive, would be to teach swimming...and water-safety. Round it off with a willingness to take responsibility. Obeying the relevant laws would'nt go astray.

The unfortunate thing is, petty clerks favour the OH&S approach, and will run amock with it unless cooler heads prevail.

Hydrocarbon (propane etc) based refrigerants do not generate any royalty stream for duPont. THAT is the problem with them... Worse still, they work so well!!!

Incidently, my Classic accelerates much faster with the air-con off. Yet the Mazda belonging to SWMBO'd does'nt really notice. - Its filled with the original R12, and works very well indeed.
Classic on factory R134a only gets the air down to 12 to 15 degrees, the Mazda around 3. Thats with a thermometer poked down an air-vent.

Cynical Old James from Gosnells.

**rick130** · 12th March 2011, 07:58 AM

James, I'm not sure which of my posts you are referring too ?

The first one where I mention that Electrolux uses hydrocarbons exclusively (and there is no inherent problem IMO, it's a good enviro move) or the one where I retrofitted a system back to a conventional blend ?

If the latter, somewhere between 4 and 6 kg of hydrocarbon could potentially leak into an airtight space. (not the 350g or so used in a car a/c system)
As Scarry said, the bulk of refrigerant leaks on commercial systems tend to occur in the FDC, either around the TX valve or associated piping.
There was no monitoring equipment to activate a non existent alarm.
People using the chiller aren't permanent staff trained in its operation, they are roo and pig shooters from all over the countryside who just rock up with their kills, open the door and load the carcasses in the middle of the night.

If anything could potentially happen
a) I'd have to live with it.
b) it's my arse and more importantly insurance on the line.

Would you take the risk ?

I've been through what was needed to retrofit a small country supermarket to hydrocarbon refrigerants with Ladas, and it just wasn't viable.
On a large scale yes, the extra safety/monitoring stuff can be amortised into the overall cost better but I wont do it unless IMO the job site is safe.

To give you an idea the Engineers from Electrolux were telling me that the new wiring and switches that they had to incorporate in case of a gas leak adds almost $80 to their production cost of a fridge, but they are saving massively in their overall refrigerant usage and are having large savings in efficiency.
They did that for only 50g of HC, an amount that only goes 'pop' and pops the freezer door open if it does 'explode'.

BTW, I've recharged plenty of tractor a/c systems that originally had R12 to a blend such as Origin 34M or Isceon 49 and they work great. They are blends of approx. 90% R134a and a mix of iso-propyl alcohol, isobutane and isopropane.
They are generally around 8% more efficient than R134a, but quite a bit more expensive.
A 1991 Fiat tractor last week was achieving 4.5* at the outlet (admittedly using an SDH15 Sanden compressor, one designed for R134A)
TX valve is the original R12 one.
Yes, I could us an HC but that's another bottle of refrigerant I'd have to carry around, another bottle rental, etc, etc and ATM I'm stocking seven different refrigerants and I'm over it.

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