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What was the failure with the shackle ? the pin appears pretty much unaffected, even the thread looks to be in good nick. (or is that a different pin)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tank
I wouldn't have thought a snatch would generate the forces to cause a catastrophic failure of a shackle that was in good nick
Martyn
Frank,
I'm confused. Please look at the photo below
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/im...12/02/1390.jpg
Geoff's Series has bellied out on the fuel tank and dragging the bumperettes. Geoff had used a little gusto as he needed to pop the front wheels up the step and now has one front and one rear wheel off the ground, with open diffs.
The track behind the Series is horizontal, and curves towards the left quite sharply. The track in front has limited traction and more steps making a snatch very difficult, and nowhere to turn around safely to use a winch.
For this example lets say the best option was to drag the Series backwards a few metres to give room for some road building and a better line. The recovery vehicle is not directly behind the Series but to the passenger side by a vehicle's width. On the Series a hitch receiver type rear recovery point is fitted allowing the shackle to be mounted in either the horiztonal or vertical plane, but not at a diagonal plane.
Should the pin on the shackle be horizontal or vertical?
Martyn, a different pin mate, these pics were taken today using a pin out of one of my shackles (3.25T) to show the perfect fit in the original dent, the incident happened near Kambalda in WA the shackle body stripped the theads and the shackle pulled apart.
A shackle with a threaded pin is NOT designed to rely on its thread to take the load, whatever that load might be, though the load is spread along the length of the pin.
The load bearing areas are the pin between the cheeks of the shackle body and the CENTRE of the "bow" or "D", this is how a shackle was designed to take a load.
If you move the load to the valleys and ridges of the threads, and only to one side then there is a chance that the threads will fail, do it often enough and it will inevitably fail.
The whole idea of mounting the shackle pin Vertical is to allow the shackle to swing into alignment with the direction of pull so that the load is spread to the patrs of the shackle that are designed to take the load.
IMO snatch straps should be burnt, no two snatches are the same, incredible shock loadings are created, any sling or rope that has the elasticity of a snatch strap is TOTALLY BANNED in the Rigging game.
Snatch straps seem to come with ratings, some 4x4 magazines tested these straps by pulling on them till destruction. That's OK, but it only tells you at what point they will break under a slow contolled pull on a testing machine.
Not strung between 2 vehicles with one bogged and the other driving off at an unknown speed with an unknown amount of slack.
A 3.25T SWL/WLL shackle would require anywhere from 12 to 15 tonnes of load to destroy it, of course that is if it is loaded as it was designed to be loaded.
The shackle that damaged my son's vehicle was torn apart by an 8000Kg. snatch strap that survived the snatch in question. So how many Kg's/Tonnes load did it take to destroy a brand new 3.25T SWL/WLL rated shackle that had been mounted with the pin horizontal, the pin jambed in the recovery point hole and the strap pulled around the shackle body off centre, well it must have been LESS that 8000Kg, as the strap survived.
The SWL/WLL embossed on a Rated shackle is totally null and void if you use (abuse) the shackle for any other purpose than it was designed to be used, abuse them at your and others peril, Regards Frank.
Mark I have no idea why you are confused (or are you having a dig), if I was there and could see the situation it would be easy. Commonsense says to do it safely.Quote:
Originally Posted by isuzutoo-eh
If I fitted the shackle pin vertically and it appeared to me that when the load was applied and the shackle took the load and the pin was jambed (at least until the vehicles were on the same or similar plane) I would mount the shackle horizontally, till the towed vehicle was level then I would change it back to vertical.
Mark you seem to think that I'm fixated on Vertical or Horizontal, my priority and yours too should be to make sure the shackle is NOT loaded sideways with a jambed pin, please read my reply to Martyn above, oh and BTW there is no way I would snatch Geoff's pride and joy, forward or back, Geoff, some Lockers mate, Regards Frank.
P.S. If you have a look at the back of (4x4 Action's) Roothy's Milo, he has a very good setup on the rear bar, 2 vertical (pin hole) eye bolts, with a decent length of a bridle strap the best of both worlds.
Jesus Christ whats with all the red writing!!!Quote:
I seen a few videos a few years back on other forums, 4x4 Action, Outerlimits etc., why would I keep links to them, do you have links to all the U-tube stuff you've seen.
It bothers me that you need proof, seems you think I'm lying, you are calling into question my Qualifications to make the observances I have made about the dangerous misuse of the humble shackle, what are your qualifications to question my honesty in this matter. My Qualifications include 40 years as a Rigger in the Mining/Construction/ Shipbuilding industries as a Class 1 Ticketed Rigger (good anywhere in the World), Mobile /Slewing Crane Ticket, Overhead Crane ticket, Dogmans Ticket, Scaffolders ticket, all earned on site and a 12 months Tafe course for Rigging.
I have tried hard to explain a Safety Issue re: the misuse of a shackle in recovery situations and all I get is"what ifs" or "buts", there are no ifs or buts you either use the gear correctlty or it will eventually fail and maybe injure someone and if you have an "if" or "But" left then I have wasted my time, Regards Frank.
I'm sorry frank but I like to see videos of stuff as do many people when simply having ONE person trying to explain, some people don't always have the knack of explaining things well that everyone understands because we all come from different backgrounds and understand things in different ways.
YOU are the one that said its all over the internet in forums etc..well I'm sorry I can't find anything so feel free to point me in the right direction. I never asked that you kept links some people can simply remember what videos they saw them in and go get the video saving people a lot of time trying to search.
What's wrong with wanting to see the videos you talk about???? DON'T talk about them then to back up what your saying if your not prepared to share and get all bloody precious about it when people ask.
And yes for your information I'm not just going to take your word for it does not mean I'm calling you a liar, or calling your qualifications in to question don't be so arrogant.
If you want to come on here giving us your expert opinion then dont be surprised if people ask you to back up your claim..we don't know you from a bar of soap.
Its natural for people to want to question especially if they feel they have experienced contrary to what you are saying.
I said I have never heard of or seen a failure, it appears a large number of people haven't, you said you had and read about it on forums and seen it all over you tube (fair enough). So far you have given ONE example its obviously not a common problem if that is the case, however like I stated above I could of not been searching correctly.
Talk about getting precious, Jeez.Quote:
Originally Posted by dullbird
Look I've offered you and everyone else that have questioned what I have said the chance to check what I have said as Factual by referring to the recognised authorities publications in Text books such as riggers guide. But you and others don't seem to want to know, you are like JohnF in the post in Soapbox "Does god exist".
You have your pet idea and if I don't agree you attack me and my credibility, if you wish to be ignorant of the facts, then be so, I couldn't give a stuff. Never have I asked you to take my word, if the videos are no longer available on U-Tube, tough, not my bloody fault. So I suppose the photos I've shown you mean nothing as well, no skin off my nose, if you are incapable of taking advice from me then that is your problem.
I tried blue but it was a bit hard to read, Regards Frank.
Anyway Zord, nice looking steering guard design, despite the raging debate :)
Frank
I have actually found what you have said very interesting and I understood a lot of what you were saying although not everything..
However dont make out that I attacked you..because that certainly was not the case I posted some opposing opinion on what I had experienced and what I was aware to be rules and regs regarding design and modification..you appeared to take offence because the way you see it you have al this experience and who am I to question you.
I asked you to post some links as I tried to search them myself!! so dont make me out to be lazy on that front either..might I add (not to fuel fire at all) but I came up with nothing on a web search either as well as you tube. which makes it hard to find authorities publications on the web to look at these things if they are not searchable.
as for your Riggers guide I'm not going out to buy a book on rigging, so some links to things you were saying would of been nice is all I'm saying but obviously to much to ask.
please dont liken me to JohnF I find that even more insulting then you red lettered post.
I noted the damage on the defender was it a D or a bow shackle I don't recall you specifying..AND that is NOT A DIG its a genuine question and one I feel people will benefit form the answer D shackles were a big no no for us in the UK.
I have no problem with taking advice as long as I can be sure its fully informed. there are plenty of people out there that have some knowledge but little knowledge can be just as dangerous if not more than someone that has none.
If you think I'm precious Imagine how your post read to have me reply like that.
Now I think ultimately we need to get back to the OP design on his guard which I think he has done a really nice job on. and just to keep you happy although it wont touch the skin on your nose I have looked up the swivel points in the UK, as I do think they are a better suited attachment for a shackle they are also much cheaper there, however I still have to check out the whole design rule thing because my ARB has nothing forward of the uprights my winch fairlead area is recessed and I believe this one done to comply with the no protrusion thing. I have nothing to back that up though that is just what I had heard hence more investigation is needed...
My point is being missed again (BTW I changed it to Blue), it is not MY FACTS, it is the correct way to use a shackle ( as stated by engineers/designers/ law makers, I'm only quoting them and my teachers on the job and at TAFE), any other way is dangerous as pointed out in the post where a brand new 3.25T SWL, (with a breaking strain around 15 Tonnes),rated shackle is torn apart by a load less than that of the breaking strain of the snatch strap at 8000kgs.Quote:
Originally Posted by dullbird
Why? Because it was used in a manner it was not designed to be used.
I sent you a PM before I read your last post, let's put this to bed, eh! Regards Frank.
Is it time for a kiss and make up :ehigh5::ehand:......:wub: :D.