Thread: Is my Rangie more environmentally proper than a Prius?

Originally Posted by akelly

I want to be driving my landies for many years, and to pass on my IIA to my son

Easy, Bio Diesel, don't have to change a thing and will still be cleaner than a Prius.

As Adam said before a Prius is a stepping stone but just not a good one.

There are several different types of Hybrid fuelled cars,

1. Electric/Petrol (Prius) where is electric drive with a petrol engine back up, which is all good until the batteries are low or you need to go faster than 75k's then you just have an underpowered heavy weight small car.

2. Plug in electric/petrol which is a bit better, much the same but you can take advantage of plugging it in and charging off the grid to lessen the reliance on the petrol engine.

3. Diesel or Petrol/Electric which is where it has a small just powerful enough conventional engine which is running all the time as per normal but through a gen set and electric motor as the transmission.
They also have a smaller battery pack which can provide extra power for climbing hills, fast acceleration or over taking and they provide amazing economy on long distance runs but like normal cars lose it a bit in traffic.
The Honda version of this had a stop start device and the battery pack started the car rolling and then once at a certain speed cut in the engine which worked very well.
The latest Honda Civic Hybrid I think is similar to this but I'm not sure.

4. Duel Fuel, Gas/Petrol, a lot of us run it and it works very well, there are some brilliant systems available these days, some people don't think they are a Hybrid system but by definition they are.

There have been Diesel/Steam Hybrids, Electric/Air Hybrids, HHO/Petrol(Diesel) Hybrids (not the make your own HHO on board types as we know THEY DON"T WORK Please don't start in this thread about that) and probably many others that I have missed but I'm talking more commercially available here.

The thing about Prius the car is that there is only a few niggling problems with the whole package, e.g.Battery Life, not plug in, the enviromental foot print of building them and the fact that the fireys need hasmat gear if ones in a crash but the worsed thing about them by far is that I'm yet to meet the owner of one that I don't want to punch.

The owners seem to think that they are something special because they paid way too much for way less of a car than what the rest of us have.

The ones I have met have been self centred arrogant tossers who like nothing more than putting other down.

So far I have refrained from punching them in the face but I did get very tempted to run one of them off the road one day when in traffic they persisted in sitting between 2 lanes and were swerving about stopping others from passing while they left 1/2km in front of them Grrrrrrr.

I like Electric vehicles of all types, I'm actually helping out designing an electric tractor at the moment and have worked with several manufactures in the past with Electric turf equipment development so I understand that is where we are heading.

Just one thing though people, just because you drive electric doesn't mean you need to bee a D%$K.

Cheers Casper

Originally Posted by akelly

Yep - except I said lower emission vehicles. Not more economical.

The biggest single emission is CO2. Which is simply fuel economy expressed another way.

If you would like to disregard CO2 (as US emissions labels do) then you can drive an ultra low emissions vehicle powered by a 6 litre V8 which gets single digit mpg. I don't believe emissions and consumption can be divorced like that.

Originally Posted by Dougal

The biggest single emission is CO2. Which is simply fuel economy expressed another way.

If you would like to disregard CO2 (as US emissions labels do) then you can drive an ultra low emissions vehicle powered by a 6 litre V8 which gets single digit mpg. I don't believe emissions and consumption can be divorced like that.

I think Nitrogen is the largest amount (by %) of exhaust gases - I could be wrong though, I'm not a guru on these things.

You can keep your ideas about what is an appropriate path for technology - you obviously don't have an interest in what is possibe - that's fine. I'm not here to change your mind, I put my position forward. I want to have a series land rover powered by a clean electricity drop-in power plant. I'm odds-on to get that within 20 years and that suits me fine.

Your desire to keep burning oil, regardless of cost, until it runs out then look for a solution may not have as happy an outcome, I'm afraid.

Cheers,

Adam

Originally Posted by akelly

I think Nitrogen is the largest amount (by %) of exhaust gases - I could be wrong though, I'm not a guru on these things.

Indeed no guru.
Nitrogen passes through the engine, it's not produced by the engine so isn't an emission.

Originally Posted by akelly

You can keep your ideas about what is an appropriate path for technology - you obviously don't have an interest in what is possibe - that's fine. I'm not here to change your mind, I put my position forward. I want to have a series land rover powered by a clean electricity drop-in power plant. I'm odds-on to get that within 20 years and that suits me fine.

Your desire to keep burning oil, regardless of cost, until it runs out then look for a solution may not have as happy an outcome, I'm afraid.

Cheers,

Adam

Your electric powered landrover will be running on coal fired power stations. There is not enough renewable electricity generation in Australia to run electric vehicles.

There are only a few sources of energy in the world (well actually only one, the sun).
Here are the intermediate sources:
- Weather (solar, wind, tidal, hydro)
- Geothermal.
- Biomass (wood, algae etc)
- Fossil fuels (prehistoric biomass, oil, coal etc).

Which of these do you think can provide the minimum 20kw you need to move a landrover?

I don't have desire to keep burning oil, I have a desire to minimise the amount of oil I burn. I do this through owning vehicles with the most efficient engines on the planet (direct injection diesels).

Your ideas aren't green at all. Simply green-washed. Like the prius (oh look our company is reducing it's footprint) and these hydrogen powered research vehicles which are also running on power generated from burning coal.

You keep dreaming and trying to make yourself feel good. I and the other engineers will work on the real solutions.

Originally Posted by Dougal

Indeed no guru.
Nitrogen passes through the engine, it's not produced by the engine so isn't an emission.



Your electric powered landrover will be running on coal fired power stations. There is not enough renewable electricity generation in Australia to run electric vehicles.

There are only a few sources of energy in the world (well actually only one, the sun).
Here are the intermediate sources:
- Weather (solar, wind, tidal, hydro)
- Geothermal.
- Biomass (wood, algae etc)
- Fossil fuels (prehistoric biomass, oil, coal etc).

Which of these do you think can provide the minimum 20kw you need to move a landrover?

I don't have desire to keep burning oil, I have a desire to minimise the amount of oil I burn. I do this through owning vehicles with the most efficient engines on the planet (direct injection diesels).

Your ideas aren't green at all. Simply green-washed. Like the prius (oh look our company is reducing it's footprint) and these hydrogen powered research vehicles which are also running on power generated from burning coal.

You keep dreaming and trying to make yourself feel good. I and the other engineers will work on the real solutions.

Crack on hero. A breathless nation awaits. I'm an engineer too, although obviously far inferior to your far-sighted genius.

You've ignored every point I've made about not focusing on present capabilities - you must be one hell of an engineer.

I can't help reading this thread and noticing alot of disinformation, in fact most of the figures are incorrect.
The Prius arrangement is actually an impressive piece of engineering compared to other electric hybrid systems. It has a reasonable power output and very good fuel consumption figures. It's a parallel hybrid unlike the the Honda which is a seris hybrid (unless they have changed in very recent years). Which is why many manufacturers have adopted the Prius technology.

A lot of posts on this thread are written with hear say. Voltages, safety, performance, plug in or not plug in, etc. It gets very confusing while fogging the truth.
But heres one interesting figure is it takes 500Kg of batterys to store the same amount of power as 5L of fuel. That does make you think. But this is only a embryotic technology and in its very early days. So expect some big changes.

Casper your post has so many inconsistances after three attempts to correct them I gave up.

Originally Posted by nobbyclrk

I can't help reading this thread and noticing alot of disinformation, in fact most of the figures are incorrect.
The Prius arrangement is actually an impressive piece of engineering compared to other electric hybrid systems. It has a reasonable power output and very good fuel consumption figures. It's a parallel hybrid unlike the the Honda which is a seris hybrid (unless they have changed in very recent years). Which is why many manufacturers have adopted the Prius technology.

A lot of posts on this thread are written with hear say. Voltages, safety, performance, plug in or not plug in, etc. It gets very confusing while fogging the truth.
But heres one interesting figure is it takes 500Kg of batterys to store the same amount of power as 5L of fuel. That does make you think. But this is only a embryotic technology and in its very early days. So expect some big changes.

Casper your post has so many inconsistances after three attempts to correct them I gave up.

So is that 500kg of Lead acid, Calcium, Deep cycle, Lithium Ion for that amount of storage?

Specs
Mass: 83 lb (37.5 kg)
Dimensions: 33 x 15 x 7.5"
Nominal Voltage: 201.6 V
Nominal Capacity : 6.5Ah
Module weight: 1040 g
Module Form Factor: Prismatic
No of Modules: 28
Total no of Cells: 168
Module specs: http://www.peve.jp/e/hevjyusi.htm

What voltage queries were there? Has that answered your questions?

http://www.evworld.com/library/prius_fire_forensics.pdf
http://www.fireengineering.com/artic...trication.html
Not to mention them taking off on there own and not decelerating when needed even when depressing the brake.

Safety is very much in question

Performance is one of those grey areas where it's always a compromise between economy and out right performance, no doubt they are zippy little buggers but they are rarely driven like that due to when they are driven like that you may as well own a Commodore or Falcon.

Why would you spend $39,490 to $57,060 on a small uncomfortable car just to get 8 to 10 ltr/100kms so I don't believe performance really comes into this discussion.

You can get around 3.9 to 4.0 ltr/100kms average from a prius where our old Carolla used to return 6/100kms most of the time around town for $12,000.

Other than I have just been reading about the US PHEV which is a plug in Prius, but from what I can find we don't get it in Oz.

Feel free to PM me with all the inconsistencies, we can discuss them away from the forum so not to be getting away from what the thread is really about while slinging insults at each other.

If your going to throw mud buddy, put up your argument not just a wise crack.

It is a very technical subject and one which I have had a little to do with and one which I've been working on in very recent years with some of the most up to date INDUSTRIAL equipment.

The Prius is not cutting edge nor is it all that clever, the first was rushed into production to try and be the first and the didn't make it, Honda beat them by a year and they are still working out the bugs each series that comes out.

The Prius is a stepping stone and has pushed electronics and electrical storage to a more affordable level but it is not the be all and end all and has a larger carbon foot print than an F150 Raptor brand new and has less recyclable parts (at the moment) for when it reaches end of use.

In between building it and end of use, one to one on average use for that type of car it SHOULD use less fuel but that is not a given, it SHOULDN'T produce as many green house gasses but again that's not a given.

If it were a fleet of each your talking about of maybe 30 or so then there would be a definite difference but I know for a fact and you can get the numbers to prove it easily enough that the Subaru Liberty over a 3 year period costs significantly less to own and run in fleet operations in mostly suburban use than the Prius.

This study was done in conjunction with the Shire of Casey about 4 years ago.

The report was published in the local paper so shouldn't be too hard to track down if your really that interested.

I take it you must own a Prius then?

By the way, this is a pretty good article lol

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...f-prius-abuse/

I think that just about covers it, sorry for the edits folks, just added stuff didn't take anything out.

Cheers Casper

Originally Posted by Casper

So is that 500kg of Lead acid, Calcium, Deep cycle, Lithium Ion for that amount of storage?

Try again. 500Kg's of Hybrid battery as used by Toyota, Lexus, Ford, Honda and probably others.

Specs
Mass: 83 lb (37.5 kg)
Dimensions: 33 x 15 x 7.5"
Nominal Voltage: 201.6 V
Nominal Capacity : 6.5Ah
Module weight: 1040 g
Module Form Factor: Prismatic
No of Modules: 28
Total no of Cells: 168
Module specs: http://www.peve.jp/e/hevjyusi.htm

Thanks for the specs but your link appears to be broken. But I think thats for the Gen II Prius, is it not?

What voltage queries were there? Has that answered your questions?

I thought I brushed past a thread mentioning 120Volts. It's not the point. The point is what could be an informative or constuctive thread is turned into a thread no use to anyone who would like to learn due to the amount of in-correct information in it.

http://www.evworld.com/library/prius_fire_forensics.pdf
http://www.fireengineering.com/articles/2009/11/new-vehicle-extrication.html

I only brushed over the lower post. What about the Lexus, Honda?
....But the real scarey bit of that is I saw no mentioning of confirming the HV is safe. I see it mention a bleed down time of ten minutes but I'm pretty sure that is if the bleed down circuit is functioning. Sorry no google link. A big assumption that it has bled down is it not?

Not to mention them taking off on there own and not decelerating when needed even when depressing the brake.

I'd love to read that TSB. But it's not just issues with Toyota. Toyota got the bad press. Ford Australia couldn't even make a brake line long enough and it took along time before that issue was addressed.

Safety is very much in question

Very much so.

Performance is one of those grey areas where it's always a compromise between economy and out right performance, no doubt they are zippy little buggers but they are rarely driven like that due to when they are driven like that you may as well own a Commodore or Falcon.

Why would you spend $39,490 to $57,060 on a small uncomfortable car just to get 8 to 10 ltr/100kms so I don't believe performance really comes into this discussion.

No idea. All about personal choice.

You can get around 3.9 to 4.0 ltr/100kms average from a prius where our old Carolla used to return 6/100kms most of the time around town for $12,000.

Other than I have just been reading about the US PHEV which is a plug in Prius, but from what I can find we don't get it in Oz.

Feel free to PM me with all the inconsistencies, we can discuss them away from the forum so not to be getting away from what the thread is really about while slinging insults at each other.

If your going to throw mud buddy, put up your argument not just a wise crack.

I don't throw mud. I just don't like reading misinformation like you had put up. No need to PM's.

It is a very technical subject and one which I have had a little to do with and one which I've been working on in very recent years with some of the most up to date INDUSTRIAL equipment.



The Prius is not cutting edge nor is it all that clever, the first was rushed into production to try and be the first and the didn't make it, Honda beat them by a year and they are still working out the bugs each series that comes out.

The Prius is a stepping stone and has pushed electronics and electrical storage to a more affordable level but it is not the be all and end all and has a larger carbon foot print than an F150 Raptor brand new and has less recyclable parts (at the moment) for when it reaches end of use.

In between building it and end of use, one to one on average use for that type of car it SHOULD use less fuel but that is not a given, it SHOULDN'T produce as many green house gasses but again that's not a given.

If it were a fleet of each your talking about of maybe 30 or so then there would be a definite difference but I know for a fact and you can get the numbers to prove it easily enough that the Subaru Liberty over a 3 year period costs significantly less to own and run in fleet operations in mostly suburban use than the Prius.

This study was done in conjunction with the Shire of Casey about 4 years ago.

The report was published in the local paper so shouldn't be too hard to track down if your really that interested.

I take it you must own a Prius then?

By the way, this is a pretty good article lol

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/01/piston-slap-long-term-ramifications-of-prius-abuse/

I think that just about covers it, sorry for the edits folks, just added stuff didn't take anything out.

Cheers Casper

I don't understand the continually comparisons between a Honda and a Prius. They're Chalk and Cheese. In fact Honda only just reaches true hybrid status. There design is completly different. But don't think Honda are not continually trying to fix 'bugs'.

If we all looked at the automobile in the way some look at Hybrids we would all still be on horse back.

I'm not sure what to say about the rest of your post. It's pretty much all your personal opinion. Which is fine. I just like to read factual posts not hearsay. I stand by my earlier post.

And no I don't own a Prius. So you may not need to "refrain from punching me in the face" for that reason.
I just know a little bit about them.