Thread: why do wheel bearings come loose?

Originally Posted by uninformed

Both front and rear are the type with 2 nuts and a locking washer between them. Tabs are bent inward and outward to lock both nuts. There is a larger, thicker washer between the outer bearing and the first nut.

I just checked my rears which I did, say a month ago, new timken bearings, and they are showing signs of being loose also. The fronts I hadnt touced myself before. I was getting my truck service every 10k, but not for about 30k now. I do all the oils etc myself on date, and repairs as needed now (if I can). I followed LRs WSM procedure and not only used a good quality and tested torque wrench, but checked for play at the hub during assembly of the rears.

Do new bearings bed in and need adjusting x km after fitting?

Hopefully early next week I will be overhauling the front end and will also re tension the rear bearings.

Serg

If the inner seal isn't seated deep enough in the hub,it can mean that when you do up the nuts that you haven't actually removed all the play,as the inner bearing doesn't butt fully against the flange on the hub,and after a short period,play becomes evident.When I first got my 110,I had some work done and while it was there,I said to them to replace the bearings as they were an unknown quality.A few months later I found play in the bearings,and tightening the nut up didn't eliminate it completely,further investigation revealed the inner seal wasn't seated far enough in the hub.I replaced the seals and located them correctly and no more problems.The seals were twin lipped seals as I run oil in everything.

thanks Wayne,

For the rears, I use a MD driveflange and the spigot pushes it in X amount. Seals are RTC3511 Corteco. The front end was fully rebuilt with MD locker etc. The guy doing it has done more of these than I have had hot dinners so I would guess the seal depth be ok?

I have had this problem of bearings on my '96 110 loosening in short order after setting as per the book. Sometimes in as little as 20000k!And I mean really loose! After much head (wood) scratching I have come to the conclusion the method used is incorrect. I have gone back to using the old Tighten,spin wheel and check, tighten, repeat until there is minimal play in bearing as per old school bearing setting procedure. No more problem service to service now
I run oil lubed hubs with Maxidrive drive members. I think the reason or part of it is for rough road use the official setting procedure leaves too much play in the bearing which allows it to fret under load which wears/vibrates the locking nuts. I do do a lot of rough road running.
Cheers Scott

Originally Posted by uninformed

Both front and rear are the type with 2 nuts and a locking washer between them. Tabs are bent inward and outward to lock both nuts. There is a larger, thicker washer between the outer bearing and the first nut.

I just checked my rears which I did, say a month ago, new timken bearings, and they are showing signs of being loose also. The fronts I hadnt touced myself before. I was getting my truck service every 10k, but not for about 30k now. I do all the oils etc myself on date, and repairs as needed now (if I can). I followed LRs WSM procedure and not only used a good quality and tested torque wrench, but checked for play at the hub during assembly of the rears.

Do new bearings bed in and need adjusting x km after fitting?

Hopefully early next week I will be overhauling the front end and will also re tension the rear bearings.

Originally Posted by schuy1

I have had this problem of bearings on my '96 110 loosening in short order after setting as per the book. Sometimes in as little as 20000k!And I mean really loose! After much head (wood) scratching I have come to the conclusion the method used is incorrect. I have gone back to using the old Tighten,spin wheel and check, tighten, repeat until there is minimal play in bearing as per old school bearing setting procedure. No more problem service to service now
I run oil lubed hubs with Maxidrive drive members. I think the reason or part of it is for rough road use the official setting procedure leaves too much play in the bearing which allows it to fret under load which wears/vibrates the locking nuts. I do do a lot of rough road running.
Cheers Scott

Serg,
Rolling element bearings are precision manufactured such that they don't bed in or need to be adjusted after a bedding in period.

There could be a problem with your procedure. I don't know the procedure in the Land Rover workshop manual, so can't comment on it. My procedure is close to what Scott (schuy1) described, but I will just add the following:

(a) initially over tighten the bearings a little and note the position of the nut
(b) grab top and bottom of the tyre and rock it to ensure no play, then spin the wheel a few times before backing off the nut and repeating step (a)
(c) again rock and spin the tyre a few times, then back off the nut and tighten to just take out all play in the bearings
(d) spin the wheel to make sure they are not too tight, using my "feel" for what amount of drag is correct - note: be sure this drag is not due to the brakes.
(e) now realise that tightening the outer nut will further tighten the bearings, so back off the nut a little, fit the tab washer and outer nut (I don't use the later style nuts with grub screws)
(f) spin the wheel a few times then check that play in the bearings is minimal and not over tight
(g) if correct, bend over the tab washer to secure the nuts

Check the temperature around the hubs during or after the first trip after adjusting wheel bearing to check for "all ok".

assembling 6X6 axles the bearing was pressed into the hub, often using frozen bearing cones as the cones didnt want to seat in the hub.

the wheel bearing nuts then tensioned often overtight, the same people did the assembly and came up with a feel that stopped every vehicle needing adjustment a second time- after a 10KM drive .

you often find some rear wheel bearings needed adjustment.
don't remember ever doing front bearings.

I can remember the factory specs being odd.it required adjustment till there was freeplay [preload] that allowed movement measured with dial gauge at the tyre tread.
I think that might be ok if the axle was solid mounted in a test bench.

if you looked up most disc brake axle specs they require movement at the disc.

most of the wheel bearing I see on other vehicles the bearing has been spinning on the washer. even the truck bearings I do that need a puller to remove.

Originally Posted by Bush65

Serg,
Rolling element bearings are precision manufactured such that they don't bed in or need to be adjusted after a bedding in period.

There could be a problem with your procedure. I don't know the procedure in the Land Rover workshop manual, so can't comment on it. My procedure is close to what Scott (schuy1) described, but I will just add the following:

(a) initially over tighten the bearings a little and note the position of the nut
(b) grab top and bottom of the tyre and rock it to ensure no play, then spin the wheel a few times before backing off the nut and repeating step (a)
(c) again rock and spin the tyre a few times, then back off the nut and tighten to just take out all play in the bearings
(d) spin the wheel to make sure they are not too tight, using my "feel" for what amount of drag is correct - note: be sure this drag is not due to the brakes.
(e) now realise that tightening the outer nut will further tighten the bearings, so back off the nut a little, fit the tab washer and outer nut (I don't use the later style nuts with grub screws)
(f) spin the wheel a few times then check that play in the bearings is minimal and not over tight
(g) if correct, bend over the tab washer to secure the nuts

Check the temperature around the hubs during or after the first trip after adjusting wheel bearing to check for "all ok".

LR procedure:

tighten first adjusting nut to 50nm, ensure hub is free to spin with NO bearing play.

Back off adjusting nut 90 degrees and re tighten to 10nm

Fit new lock washer and second lock nut. Tighten lock nut to 50nm.

That is the way I have done it previously and did so with the caliper removed. I did have the wheel/tyre off and only gave a quick check of the bearing play at caliper. Of coarse grabbing the tyre will provide a better feel if there is any. I did not check it once the tyre and wheel was on again.

When I did the fronts the other night (note I did not do the fronts originaly) I did check with the wheel/tyre on before I bent the tab over. I found that the 10nm setting was a little low, but it takes bugger all more to remove that play when the second lock nut is tightend to 50nm. I think I went to about 12nm on the adjuster nut.

how are you guys feeling for heat at the hub. Only place I can get my hands is on the driveflange, otherwise it means taking the wheel off.

I guess this is one of those things where experience and feel comes into play.

Originally Posted by uninformed

.......

how are you guys feeling for heat at the hub. Only place I can get my hands is on the driveflange, otherwise it means taking the wheel off.

.....

The hub is a good conductor of heat - the drive flange will be pretty much the same temperature as the hub. But be aware that a dragging brake will heat it up even quicker than a tight bearing!

When on a long trip I check hub temperatures at every stop.

John

Originally Posted by uninformed

hey all,

If wheel bearings have been installed and adjusted correctly, run in good oil ,changed at proper intervals, running stock rims and tyres, why would they work loose and have play in them?

I assume you're talking tapered roller bearings here ? These are by far the most commonly used especially in 4WD's.

It doesn't matter if you've got a Landy, Patrol, Landcruiser, Jeep or an Oka the wheel bearing setup is basically the same. There is an inner bearing comprising a race and a cup (pointing outwards) with an adjacent grease/oil seal and an identical outer bearing set up (without the seal) pointing inwards. The outer bearing is usually smaller in diameter than the inner bearing especially in non 4WD setups. The whole lot is retained by a thick thrust washer against the outer race which is 'keyed' into a slot machined in the stub axle so it cannot rotate. Next comes a large fine threaded nut which is tightened onto the thrust washer to set the wheel bearing adjustment. Next comes a soft multi tabbed washer which is also keyed into the stub axle so it cannot rotate. One tab is bent inward to lock the nut in position. Next comes an identical outer nut which is tightened onto the tab washer/inner nut to lock it into place. Finally a tab is bent outwards to stop the lock nut rotating and upsetting the whole setup.

All very basic and simple but there are a number of things that can (and do) go wrong which upsets the whole shooting match.

Here's a few, in no particular order.


1/. Greasing wheel bearings properly is a messy job and requires a certain technique. Basically with a palm full of you favourite High Temperature wheel bearing grease (normal lube grease will not do), hold the bearing upside down in the other hand and repeatedly 'bite' at the grease whilst rotating the bearing until it's fully 'packed'. Just smearing grease onto the rollers will not do and will lead to premature bearing wear/failure due to poor lubrication.

2/. Avoid using a cold chisel to tighten/loosen the big wheel bearing nuts. The resulting nicks in the edges of the nut can 'jag' the thrust washer forcing it to rotate thus damaging/destroying its keyway tab. This can result in a bearing coming loose or the nuts unwinding completely with catastrophic results. This can be particularly evident on the LHS of the vehicle as the wheel rotation is in the 'unwind' direction of the nut(s).
A nick in the side of the nut adjacent to the thrust washer can give a false 'feel' when tightening the inner nut as a small gap is actually left between the two surfaces. As the 'nick' wears or is flattened the bearing tension decreases and the bearing becomes loose.

3/. Make sure the inner bearing cup is firmly seated. A small gap here will result in a loose bearing later as the cup settles. Thou's matter. It needs to be firmly seated. This is not usually a problem when a cup is pressed in but when a cup is hammered in. What happens is that the cup is firmly seated when tapped in but 'bounces' when it hits the 'bottom' leaving a small gap. When fitting cups this way its best to use light blows at this stage. This is a very common problem.

4/. Always use new tab washers when re assembling. Old tab washers get bent and mangled and the hub keying tab gets worn which can allow it to rotate with the nuts affecting wheel bearing adjustment. Worn or damaged threads can also be a problem as nuts can be a bit 'wobbly' and not be biting correctly on the stub axle thread which, when coupled with the above can lead to loss of correct adjustment.


Replacing worn nuts and tab washers and using the correct hub nut spanner can make a big difference when servicing the wheel bearings, not only does it make the job easier, it is also more likely to stay in adjustment.

Deano