Thread: buying a second hand defender, what to look out for?

Hi Alex,

I'm sure you will get lots of tips from this site. You will no doubt hear the issue with the timing belt on early 300tdi motors but since the vehicle in question has a new one all is good there. Since most of your information is related to the engine I found the following document in my archives back in the day when I was buying my first Defender. Although written for UK conditions ... it will give you a rough idea what to look for.

The Defender buyers guide
I guess the first thing to clarify is the term 'Defender'. Some people are very touchy about this. When the Land Rover Discovery was launched, there was some confusion over whether Land Rover was a model or a brand name, so the Land Rover 90, 110 and 127 were renamed Defender 90, Defender 110 etc. For convenience, I'll be referring to all versions as 'Defender', whether they were pre-name change or not. To be fair, there were minor improvements made at the same time, but personally speaking they're all the same to me [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]

If you mention to a Land Rover enthusiast that you're thinking of buying a LandRover, you'll be greeted with incredible enthusiasm, and a heartfelt warning about rust in the chassis and bulkhead. This enthusiasm amongst owners is widespread and binds them together like no other owners group. Defender drivers will usually give a friendly flash or wave towards other Defender drivers - a trait rarely known to drivers of other marques. However... they will also be familiar with the dreaded rot.

The following guide is not intended to be the be-all and end-all checklist, but rather a list of known problem areas - you'll still need to undertake the usual pre-buying checks that you would follow when buying an 'ordinary' saloon - check for engine wear, obvious mechanical defects, etc! Don't be put off by the extent of problem areas described below - a Defender is a fantastic purchase that will look after you for decades - if you choose one carefully and look after it.

Most of the photos on this web site can be clicked upon to obtain larger versions of the image - usually with explanatory text. As some are quite large, they may take a while to download if you are using a modem.

1.1 Underneath - the chassis
Defenders have a separate ladder type chassis made of box section steel. Despite the Land Rover's reputation as a vehicle that will last forever, the chassis does need regular inspection. Replacement (at worst) or patching will inevitably be neccessary in order to keep the vehicle safely on the road. Where a replacement has been fitted, it is usually made of galvanised steel - unlike the original article. The danger spots are as follows:
• chassis beams just in front of the front suspension spring mounts
• bulkhead outriggers
• top of gearbox crossmember
• fuel tank support outrigger on 90s
• chassis beams just in front/behind rear spring mounts
• fuel tank supports on 110s
• rear crossmember
• on the 'topside' of the entire chassis

The bulkhead outriggers are particularly prone to degeneration, as the road spray/mud from the front wheels invariably gets compacted on the leading face of the brackets, leading to rapid rusting. The is unfortunate, as these outriggers support and anchor the bulkhead - which in turn provides the majority of the strength in the body, the other supports being there to support the weight of the body and load, rather than provide rigidity.

The rear crossmember is vulnerable for exactly the same reason - mud from the rear wheels collects in the crossmember and accelerates the rusting process. As this crossmember provides the strength for the towbar, any corrosion in this crossmember leads to a serious safety risk when towing. Unfortunately, it isn't unknown for unscrupulous owners to skim rusty areas of the rear crossmember with bodyfiller - so it is vital to check for this with a magnet and/or medium-to-heavy hammer.

There are also many nooks and crannies where the body is supported above the chassis. Mud and road debris collects in these areas and once again, rot sets in. The actual mounting locations and brackets used are dependent upon model, but they are all mild steel and rust through in around 12-15 years of typical use.

1.2 Underneath - the steering
Early models did not have power steering as standard, so this is something to be wary of. A non-PAS Defender is almost as easy to drive, but it can get heavy when parking, and if large tyres are fitted it will be a struggle. Check for leaks from the power steering box, the steering drop-arm and the power steering pump - if there are any leaks, allow for a reconditioned unit in the price. They are not cheap, but are straight-forward to change. Do not be talked into accepting a seal kit to fix these leaks - they will invariably return shortly after being re-sealed - you need a reconditioned replacement.

Look for wear in the two universal joints in the steering column. They are cheap to replace at around £14 each, but wear in them (apart from being an MoT failure) can make the vehicle wander dangerously. The two chrome balls ('swivel housings') become pitted after a few years - this pitting is not an MoT failure in itself, but it can cause damage to the seals, leading to oil leaks from the swivel housing. This can lead to the bearings running dry and oil/grease being splashed onto the front brake discs, which is an MoT failure! A popular fitment, is to install leather gaiters over the chrome balls to prevent the pitting. These gaiters have also been used to hide pitting...you have been warned! Replacing the chrome swivel housings is awkward and expensive - allow at least £120 per side for a garage to do the job for you.

Look for damage to the various steering linkages and ball joints, and for any damage caused by off roading. If a steering guard or differential guard is fitted, see if it shows signs of abuse - it could say a lot about how the vehicle has been treated. Many people fit 'armour' for cosmetic reasons. If this is the case, then there should be no damage. Remember to check with your insurers before you drive off - many do not like bullbars or roll cages.

1.3 Underneath - the brakes
Defenders had pretty poor brakes up until the introduction of the Tdi models. The early (-1993) 4 cylinder models were fitted with type 50 servos of 227mm diameter - these can be identified by the vacuum hose connection being at the '6 o'clock' position. Later models, and all V8s, had the larger (276mm diameter) type 80 servo fitted. This has the vacuum connection at the '11 o'clock' position.

Land Rover remedied the situation to a certain extent in 1993 when the Tdis were introduced. The 110 Tdis were fitted with vented discs at the front (as was the 90 heavy duty model), with plain discs at the rear. Up until then, there had been plain discs at the front and drum brakes at the rear.

Due to the poor braking ability of the pre-Tdi Defenders, there have been a few popular modifications. A common upgrade was to fit the rear axle of a Range Rover to provide rear disc brakes. This isn't a straight fit, and requires welding a bracket to one side of the axle to mount the shock absorber. Check any rear axle with discs to see whether the axle fitted is from a Range Rover - apart from anything else, it'll make identifying spares more awkward. An easier upgrade is to fit a late model Defender rear axle with the rear discs fitted. Note that if you're considering fitting a Range Rover rear axle to a 110 - don't! The Range Rover item has a lower axle-load rating, and isn't upto the job on a 110.

Another upgrade available, is to fit vented discs to the front axle. These are worthy additions if you are affected by brake fade, but the calipers for example, are much more expensive to replace.

1.4 Underneath - the suspension
Most Defenders have had replacement bushes fitted - the original Land Rover rubber ones last for two years or so, and then require replacement. It has become popular to fit polyurethane bushes instead, which are firmer but last much longer. Some people say these are far superior, but others say that they make the ride harsh and noisy.
The original oil-filled shock absorbers will most likely have been replaced with gas-filled after-market items. Arguably, Bilstein make the best, but they are expensive. The condition of the steering damper will affect the precision of the steering, and again an after-market replacement is normal.

While you're under the vehicle, check the condition of the 'A' frame and ball-joint fitted above the rear axle - this is usually neglected as it is awkward to reach, but is part of the MoT test. The self levelling suspension, if fitted, is very expensive to replace if faulty - the parts alone may cost you £300.

At the front of the vehicle, the shock absorber mounts ('turrets' or 'cones') are prone to corrosion. Replacements are very cheap at around £12-£15 each, but fitting them is a pain as the retaining nuts are usually badly corroded.

Springs are frequently upgraded to allow the fitment of a winch, heavy bullbar, etc. You may also find a vehicle which has had a suspension lift. These are generally fitted for enhanced off-road clearance. If a lifting kit is fitted - ask why. Be very wary of these - they affect the steering geometry and if this is not properly corrected, the vehicle will be unstable to drive. Lift kits may also have the knock-on effect of causing additional and rapid wear in the driveline universal joints.

2.2 Topside - the gearbox
There have been various types of gearbox fitted to the Defender, the latest and arguably the best manual gearbox being the R380 5-speed. With the exception of the 50th anniversary special edition, the 4 speed automatic gearbox has never been a factory option in the UK, but is a popular conversion.

The main checks to be made include ensuring that the hi-lo ranges can be selected reasonably easily (it can be a bit reluctant when cold). With the engine running, ensure that the selector is in the high ratio/non-locked position (push to the right and then push forward). The warning light on the dashboard should be unlit. Engage the differential lock by pulling the selector back to the neutral area, them to the left and forward. The warning light should now be lit up. If it isn't, ask why. If the bulb is missing, it may have been removed to hide a problem. Check that the low range works also.

Some transmission noise is normal, but any shrill/harsh/grating/howling/deep-rumbling noises could indicate wear or damage. Incidentally, don't use the diff lock when travelling on a firm road, such as tarmac, as serious (i.e. expensive !) damage could be done to the transmission. It is worth noting that the handbrake in a Land Rover is actually a transmission brake - so pulling it on while the vehicle is in motion can cause serious damage to the gearbox / transfer box - remember to remind the examiner of this when you take the vehicle for an MoT!

2.3 Topside - the bulkhead
The bulkhead, firewall, or 'dash assembly' as Land Rover refers to it, provides the main structural strength in the body. Unfortnately, it is made of mild steel and is not galvanised, so once again it rusts. The favourite areas for rusting are along the top, where water enters through leaking windscreen seals; inside the door pillars, where the door hinges are located; and around the footwells - particularly to the front of the A pillar.

The bulkhead can be replaced, but it is not for the faint hearted - it requires the dismantling of most of the vehicles systems - steering, brakes, electrics, and also requires substantial amounts of bodywork to be removed. Hence, you'll find that if a bulkhead has needed welding, it has been undertaken in-situ ! During my restoration project, I simply replaced my bulkhead with a better one, rather than weld it up - a more expensive option, but as the vehicle was being dismantled anyway, it was easier and will result in a better finish when the project is finally completed - in 2010...

2.4 Topside - the bodywork
Defenders have an aluminium alloy ('birmabrite') body which doesn't rust - but it does corrode. The problem is due to a basic design fault, which places the aluminium alloy directly onto mild steel frames (as in the doors). The result is an electrolytic reaction which gently, but inevitably, turns the alloy into aluminium oxide - the white powdery deposits that can frequently be seen on Defenders as young as two years old.

The doors are particularly badly affected, and replacements are frequently needed after only three to four years, hence the price of secondhand doors in good condition remains very high. Be sure to check inside the interior panels of doors when considering a purchase. The panels are held on by self tapping screws, so removal is easy and does not damage any fittings. If the owner objects to your request, walk away or adjust the price - something nasty is probably lurking in that damp recess! The steel frames of the doors also rust quite badly, and welded repairs to the frame are not uncommon.

If you are replacing the chassis, or remove the body at any time, you can substantially reduce the amount of anodic corrosion by inserting a layer of rubber between the steel (chassis brackets) and aluminiun (body) mounting areas. This is available in sheet form from Woolies - see the links section.

All Defenders leak to a certain extent, but most leaks can be identified and sealed with patience. You might need a few tubes of silicone sealant, but it is possible. The only area where you'll be unlikely to get a perfect seal is around the doors. I haven't come across one yet that didn't leak - even brand new ones still sport this 'characteristic' [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]
Note that vehicles that have been converted from a hardtop to a station wagon may leak if the installation of the windows wasn't carried out correctly - if too much metal is removed, the seal will never be watertight.

2.5 Topside - the interior
Just because the Defender that you're looking at says 'County' along its sides, and has County specification upholstery in it, doesn't mean that the vehicle is a genuine 'County' model. The ease with which you can switch seating and install roof lining panels, means that you must look at the logbook to see which model the vehicle was originally built as. This isn't to say that a converted vehicle is any poorer, just that it isn't worth as much. You should also bear in mind the fact that you probably won't see a 'standard' vehicle - Defenders lend themselves to being customised so well, that they usually are.

2.6 Topside - wheels and tyres
The wheels and tyres fitted to a Defender have a direct impact upon its stability and driving characteristics. The standard fitment sizes have been tested thoroughly by Land Rover and have been deemed safe by them - fit anything else and your insurers may not pay up if you have an accident.

Larger tyres may look the part, but as the vehicle's weight is being spread over a larger contact area, it makes the wheel much more likely to aquaplane (bad) or lock up under braking (very bad). The type of tyres fitted will also greatly influence the vehicles ability on-road and off it. Road bias tyres will be quieter, last longer, give good steering and braking performance on tarmac, but will lose grip easily in muddy conditions. Likewise, off-road bias tyres will be superb in muddy areas, but may be dangerous at speed on tarmac with much greater stopping distances. The middle ground 'all terrain' tyres are the best compromise for those that need good on-road performance as well as good off-road ability. It is always wise to seek professional advice on the selection of tyres, as their effect on 4x4 vehicles is so pronounced. Remember to inform your insurer of any changes.

3.0 Finally...
Finally, if you are looking to buy a Land Rover, shortlist a few examples that you like, and then take a knowledgeable friend along for a further more in-depth look. You won't regret it - even if it does cost you a couple of pints of nectar !

G'day warover. I would really try to find the real cause of the seizure in that engine. (hydraulic?) If caused by lack of oil, a new engine would be indicated (too damaged to rebuild) If it broke the timing belt this normally means bent pushrods, broken rocker arms, some possible other damage. I dont think I would be purchasing a vehicle with engine not running unless dirt cheap. Dont forget that without some sort of road test theres a lot more mechanical stuff between the flywheel and the bitumen that could be RS (and very exy to fix!)
As a very solid 4wd I think they rate at the top of the tree but they can still get busted!
cheers sheff

Thanks Sheff,

From what the seller was saying, it is caused by a broken timing belt, which he replaced, as well as replacing the pushrods. After this, he took it to Broome (2237km) a couple of times.

He then found that the belt (?) has missed a tooth, which stopped the car from working, he then replaced the harmonic balancer (as mentioned) and timing belt again. This is the state of the car at present, in total, he has travelled around 18,000km with it (147,000 when he got it)

The car is in working order, but I want to know if the engine has suffered so much damage already that it needs a recond unit (also, how much would one of those be?)

Hope the above helps,

Alex

Sounds more like somewhere in the past someone tried to swim the vehicle across a river and drowned the motor. Now this guy has had a go at trying to fix it and failed and now wants someone else to inherit the problem.

New rings and pistons won't fix the problem nor will new push rods or timing belt. Sure they are related but an out of sync timing belt will not cause hydraulic lock by being out one tooth or two either. It'll do funny things on a stock motor like poor performance, hard starting with backfiring in the case of a petrol, difficult to set the timng, in the case of rings noticable amounts of oil usage within short periods and generally just be a real temperamental pig.A well looked after motor should have no reason to have problems even if you cane it a bit too regularly.

A "Siezed" motor is one that has run without out adequate oil or been continued to be worked in a condition where it is not adequately being cooled, ie. radiator is boiling and just continues to be flogged, to the point the pistons become so hot they fuse to the cylinder walls and motor stops. Usually a rebuild case as the bores will be scored and require machining.

If it's a "hydraulic lock" it means the motor swallowed more than a good gulp full of water and because water doesn't compress as easily as air everything stops rather quickly. So it's gonna be more like bent con' rods and bent valve gear. Not saying it's not fixable but you should prepare in your mind if you're really thinking about buying it there's going to be a lot of checking and rebuilding if you take it.

So I'd be sitting on the chance of a new (crate) motor as a worst case, second mortgage the house for that one however it might not be that bad....won't be cheap either way. You're still gonna need to knock the pistons out and check the con rods for straightness which I would toss and put in a new set for the sake of being sure they were up to the job, new set of rockers and valves.

Could always call an "automotive dismantler" for a second hand motor as another option rather than fix the motor the vehicle has already.

Then stick it all back together and turn the key to start and see what happens.

Agree completely all that hellspawn says. Also the harmonic balancer issue. If that was replaced after the first episode (broken timing belt) it could be that it had come loose on the crankshaft. The tightening procedure for the retaining stud is tight, then a whole bl@@dy lot tighter!! If not it WILL loosen and apart from damage to the balancer pulley bore similar damage will occur to the end of the crankshaft which will also put you into mortgage territory!
Working on these motors is quite straightfoward for DIYS and a little nous. I have no problems working on my 300tdi disco, timing belt change quite easy but you do need the specific tools/instructions. And this pretty much goes for the rest of the vehicle. They are not that hard to find in good condition, the price should always be negotiable on these vehicles, I bought a disco cos I like them, and I know I will get 20yrs. out of it (after all my 76 s111, 2.25 diesel is still going strong! [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img])
cheers sheff

Thank you Hellspawn and Sheff,

From the sound of things, I'm looking at possibly a recond engine for this car, or an endless round of fixing bits that fall off. What sheff was saying about tightening the retaining stud rings a bell, because the current owner kept saying that 'the bolt needs to be checked every now and again because of a design fault'. Sound to me that he didn't fasten it on hard enough.

The other thing I noticed about the buyer's guide is that they all sound like rust buckets. Is this true for all landrovers? or just the defenders in general? A design fault for putting mild steel on the instrument / firewall I gather from the guides.

Anyway, I'll probably not be looking at this particular car, a shame really, as they sound like really capable 4wds, now I'm looking for something with similar capabality that's diesel.

Thanks for all your help guys.

Cheers!

Think you've made a good decision somehow about this particular vehicle.
Plenty of better examples about.

Sounds to me like you are wise to walk away from this but don't lose faith in the make and model. Here in Perth they do come up for sale, one or two every week. Expect to pay around $18k for a 300Tdi.