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Thread: TD5 fueling problem question

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Kilmore Vic
    Posts
    190

    TD5 fueling problem question

    HI all, I have not been on for some time due to parking my D2 TD5 due to its reluctance to run. Time has come to try to resurrect it though.
    The short version of the problem was that a hydraulic lash adjuster failed and bent a valve. It sat for a while due to lack of funds, I collected up the bits then took the head off (second time). New valve, new head gasket, other bits and pieces that needed to be replaced while it was apart. It all went back together, started and then promptly stopped and didn't want to do anything more. It would turn over but not even try to fire. I was more than a bit frustrated and it sat under the carport and I just drove my Falcon which did start for me.

    Fast forward to now and after going four wheeling with a friend, I want to get the Disco up and out on the tracks again. So I re-subscribed here and started reading everything I could find on "TD5 turns over but does not start". The main suspects coming up as the fuel pump and the crank sensor with one of the threads suggesting working from the back forwards to eliminate one thing at a time so this is what I have done.

    So I decided to remove the fuel pump to check if it was blocked with years of crud. I opened the cover and wow there was a lot of dirt under there.

    IMG_3006.jpg

    Cleaned and then out it came.

    IMG_3009.jpg

    It looked really clean so I gave the mesh at the bottom a clean up and then put it back in.

    Next was the fuel filter and the non-return valve in the top of it.

    The valve did not want to budge, to the extent that mounting tab was starting to bend. As they say life wasn't meant to be easy, off came the filter block and I dealt with the non return valve in the vice.

    IMG_3010.jpgIMG_3012.jpgIMG_3013.jpg

    Filter block back on the Disco and new filter in place.

    IMG_3016.jpgIMG_3017.jpg

    So that was stage one. Time to try it and see if that did anything. First step remove the fuel pump relay and crank it till the oil light went off. Then I connected the Nanocom and the battery was pretty weak so I jumpered up with the mighty Falcon and turned on the ignition. It did get some RPM reading so it was not looking like a crank sensor problem.

    Bleed seemed to do something, it is a 99 model so the pump five times to bleed doesnt work. You just power on and leave it for three minutes until the fuel pump switches off. I gave it crank and it was trying to start, promising. Ignition off 15 seconds, on again bleed and try again. Life!

    However, it ran for a minute or so and then ceased. It sounded like it had run out of fuel. Bleed it again twice, and it started again, ran for a little while then stopped. Once more just to make it clear. Bleed, it starts runs for a little while and stops like it has run out of fuel. While it is running, the fuel pump is working very hard too.

    So that was my long lead in to the question. I am thinking that the injector seals are not sealing and I need to do the injector seals and washers, does this sound correct to the collective AULRO wisdom? Can anyone else think of anything else to check?

    Thanks
    Bernie
    D2 TD5 Manual

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Kilmore Vic
    Posts
    190

    A quick video

    Seeing if I can add a video of it running and then not running

    IMG_3019_small.mp4
    D2 TD5 Manual

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Darwin
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    1,415
    Quote Originally Posted by Designosaur View Post
    video of it running IMG_3019_small.mp4
    Air leak into fuel system? Had a vehicle (not a D2) that I had to bleed every few kms. The mechanic found a small pin hole in the fuel filter shell.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Melbourn(ish)
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    24,959
    common problem if you put the fuel lines on in the wrong spots.
    Dave

    "In a Landrover the other vehicle is your crumple zone."

    For spelling call Rogets, for mechanicing call me.

    Fozzy, 2.25D SIII Ex DCA Ute
    TDI D1(parting/ed)
    Tdi autoManual d1 (Kept it for the girlfriend)
    Archaeopteryx 1990 6x6 dual cab(This things staying)


    If you've benefited from one or more of my posts please remember, your taxes paid for my skill sets, I'm just trying to make sure you get your monies worth.
    If you think you're in front on the deal, pay it forwards.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Kilmore Vic
    Posts
    190
    Quote Originally Posted by workingonit View Post
    Air leak into fuel system? Had a vehicle (not a D2) that I had to bleed every few kms. The mechanic found a small pin hole in the fuel filter shell.
    Thanks, I did put another fuel filter on yesterday though so I don't think the air leak will be from there.

    Cheers
    D2 TD5 Manual

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Kilmore Vic
    Posts
    190
    Quote Originally Posted by Blknight.aus View Post
    common problem if you put the fuel lines on in the wrong spots.
    HI Blknight, does something look in the wrong spot in one of the pics? Or are you just suggesting something to check.

    Thanks
    B
    D2 TD5 Manual

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
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    Darwin
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    Quote Originally Posted by Designosaur View Post
    HI Blknight, does something look in the wrong spot in one of the pics? Or are you just suggesting something to check.

    Thanks
    B
    Not so much 'you might have a hole in the filter' but the effect an air leak has. Not always conclusive, but you could bleed and then run to stall, then unscrew the filter - if the level in the filter is basically 'full' then the issue is ahead of the filter - if the level is low then pre-filter.

    Actually Blknight reminds me I once crossed the pick up and return lines on a D1 tank. The pick up line reaches the bottom of the tank. The return line is much shorter, so at 1/4 tank it sent air to the engine. However, the fact that you can bleed and start indicates your lines at the tank are probably not crossed.

    How full is your tank?

    Is the duration from 'bleed and run' to 'engine stall' consistent?

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Melbourn(ish)
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    24,959
    4 ports on the tank..

    LP out to filter
    Filter back to HP + spill
    HP out to Engine
    Return and bleed

    if you cross up the LP side it will sort of prime and start and run when you have a full tank.
    If you cross up the HP out and LP out it will prime and sort of run but not well.

    IF you cross over the Return to HP and Spill and the return and bleed it can be a pig to bleed but once its bled up it will run ok.

    the 10P engine setup is more tolerant of getting it wrong than the later ones.

    it can also get interesting if you cross up the lines to the filter housing.

    If i remember from when I mapped it out theres 13 or 14ish theoretical reasonable ways of getting the system plumbed up wrong (lots more if you count the things you cant do without putting in really wierd hoses or just plain stupid stuff like fitting a port on the 3 way fpr to the lp pump outlet) of which 3 or 4 are common and only 2 of them are show stoppers.

    theres a couple of threads about a TSB to deal with the bleeder in the return line. That primarily addresses hard starting or easy starts with multiple bleeds or easy immidate restarts (if you get the failure it talks about in worst case scenario you have fuel come out.
    Dave

    "In a Landrover the other vehicle is your crumple zone."

    For spelling call Rogets, for mechanicing call me.

    Fozzy, 2.25D SIII Ex DCA Ute
    TDI D1(parting/ed)
    Tdi autoManual d1 (Kept it for the girlfriend)
    Archaeopteryx 1990 6x6 dual cab(This things staying)


    If you've benefited from one or more of my posts please remember, your taxes paid for my skill sets, I'm just trying to make sure you get your monies worth.
    If you think you're in front on the deal, pay it forwards.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Kilmore Vic
    Posts
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    Quote Originally Posted by workingonit View Post
    How full is your tank?

    Is the duration from 'bleed and run' to 'engine stall' consistent?
    Hi, yes definately an air leak, the tank is about half full. I am leaning towards the injector washers though because it bleeds up pretty easily, the air could be coming from the cylinders being forced past the washer. I think that it is at higher pressure in the cylinder than the 4 bar or so that the fuel system is at.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blknight.aus View Post
    4 ports on the tank..

    LP out to filter
    Filter back to HP + spill
    HP out to Engine
    Return and bleed

    if you cross up the LP side it will sort of prime and start and run when you have a full tank.
    If you cross up the HP out and LP out it will prime and sort of run but not well.

    IF you cross over the Return to HP and Spill and the return and bleed it can be a pig to bleed but once its bled up it will run ok.

    the 10P engine setup is more tolerant of getting it wrong than the later ones.

    it can also get interesting if you cross up the lines to the filter housing.
    Thanks Blknight, I think I have put everything back the same way as it was in the before pictures that I took. That is not to say that it was correct before, I will check it all out. The fuel pump connections are the same order as the manual so I'm relatively confident there. The coloured dust covers are on the correct ports of the filter block. I have not followed them back to the pump and forward to the engine though so I will do that.

    A further question, on a 10P engine, how does the high pressure stage of the fuel pump know to have a rest? I read that it actually pumps at 6 bar or so and the FPR reduces this down to 4 or so. It therefore shouldn't be at full tilt all the time. Reason for asking, the 10P seems to run a bleed sequence everytime you turn the key on rather than just when you pump the pedal to the floor 5 times like the later ones. Does it have something in the pump to stop that if the fuel system is at pressure? I am thinking that the engine is bleeding up then starting but as soon as the time for the pump to run is up, that is when it stops. That might be why I can hear the pump working so abnormally hard while running. (NB. these are just thoughts, happy to be proven wrong)

    I am picking up washers and injector seals at lunch time tomorrow so lots of stuff to check and replace on the weekend. I will report back. Thanks for the input so far!

    Bernie
    D2 TD5 Manual

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Designosaur View Post
    Hi, yes definately an air leak, the tank is about half full. I am leaning towards the injector washers though because it bleeds up pretty easily, the air could be coming from the cylinders being forced past the washer. I think that it is at higher pressure in the cylinder than the 4 bar or so that the fuel system is at.



    Thanks Blknight, I think I have put everything back the same way as it was in the before pictures that I took. That is not to say that it was correct before, I will check it all out. The fuel pump connections are the same order as the manual so I'm relatively confident there. The coloured dust covers are on the correct ports of the filter block. I have not followed them back to the pump and forward to the engine though so I will do that.

    A further question, on a 10P engine, how does the high pressure stage of the fuel pump know to have a rest? I read that it actually pumps at 6 bar or so and the FPR reduces this down to 4 or so. It therefore shouldn't be at full tilt all the time. Reason for asking, the 10P seems to run a bleed sequence everytime you turn the key on rather than just when you pump the pedal to the floor 5 times like the later ones. Does it have something in the pump to stop that if the fuel system is at pressure? I am thinking that the engine is bleeding up then starting but as soon as the time for the pump to run is up, that is when it stops. That might be why I can hear the pump working so abnormally hard while running. (NB. these are just thoughts, happy to be proven wrong)

    I am picking up washers and injector seals at lunch time tomorrow so lots of stuff to check and replace on the weekend. I will report back. Thanks for the input so far!

    Bernie
    It doesnt, if a td5 is running the pump is running. 1 motor drives the low and high pressure side of the pump.

    low pressure goes to the filter, the filter feeds the High pressure, the high pressure feeds the engine, the FPR returns fuel not needed to maintain the head pressure at 60-75psi to tank.

    to test for injector seal blow past simply fill the tank to absolutely brimming full and start it up. if it bubbles for more than a few seconds to a minute and the level doesnt drop down by about the amount of the bubbling you have injector compression seal or nozzle blow past possible a venturi leak on the return line from the filter to the tank.

    to test the latter, just take the line off the tank end and put it into a very large bowl, run the prime sequence and watch for bubbles.
    Dave

    "In a Landrover the other vehicle is your crumple zone."

    For spelling call Rogets, for mechanicing call me.

    Fozzy, 2.25D SIII Ex DCA Ute
    TDI D1(parting/ed)
    Tdi autoManual d1 (Kept it for the girlfriend)
    Archaeopteryx 1990 6x6 dual cab(This things staying)


    If you've benefited from one or more of my posts please remember, your taxes paid for my skill sets, I'm just trying to make sure you get your monies worth.
    If you think you're in front on the deal, pay it forwards.

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