Thread: Noisy tappets after 3.5 rebuild, oil flow?

Originally Posted by Bulldog

Hi all,

I've just completed a 3.5L V8 upper rebuild on my '79 RR (heads, cam, timing chain, tappets, push rods etc). I started it up yesterday (ran about a minute or so) and it was quite noisy. I did an AULRO search and found out i needed to fill the oil pump with vasaline to prime it. Did that, and started it again today. Most of the noise is gone, but there is still something that sounds like tappet noise (ran it a min or two for it to go away - as the manual suggests). The oil light went off 3 seconds after it was started. After switching it off, i opened the oil filler and some smoke came out (because of new parts wearing in??? - the manual says there will be some smoke and strange smells on first startup). I cannot see any fresh oil on the rocker shafts or touch any with my finger.

My questions:
1. Should i keep running it and see what happens?
2. Should the rocker shafts be "soaked" in oil or does it just run inside them? (i am 100% sure they are the right way around according to the end notch).
3. Are there any ways to really check if i have oil flow to the whole engine? (removing the oil temp sensor will only prove its getting to the oil pump won't it).

The idea of running an engine with no oil makes me very nervous and the thought of destroying my last few weeks work is not a nice one to say the least...

Any ideas greatly appriciated. Thank you in advance.

Did you replace the cam bearings in the block, I haven't had a look at the 3.5 oiling system, but most V8's oil the rockers via the cam bearings, by a hole/oil gallery from the main bearings to the cam bearing then around the cam shaft bearing journal through a groove in the bearing shell or the camshaft journal and and out through a hole/s in the cam bearing tunnel and up to the rockers. If the holes in the cam bearing shells do not line up with these holes/oil galleries then NO oil will get to the rockers, if they have moved they may have partially blocked these holes or completely. If you didn't change the cam bearings you may have knocked them out of alignment when you fitted the new camshaft, did you have any problems getting the camshaft in, were any of the cam journals a tight fit, it doesn't have to move far to block off the oil gallery, anyway have a look at the manual and see which bearings transport the oil to the rockers, it may only be one, two or all of them, worth checking, Regards Frank.

Originally Posted by Bulldog

Hi all,

I've just completed a 3.5L V8 upper rebuild on my '79 RR (heads, cam, timing chain, tappets, push rods etc). I started it up yesterday (ran about a minute or so) and it was quite noisy. I did an AULRO search and found out i needed to fill the oil pump with vasaline to prime it. Did that, and started it again today. Most of the noise is gone, but there is still something that sounds like tappet noise (ran it a min or two for it to go away - as the manual suggests). The oil light went off 3 seconds after it was started. After switching it off, i opened the oil filler and some smoke came out (because of new parts wearing in??? - the manual says there will be some smoke and strange smells on first startup). I cannot see any fresh oil on the rocker shafts or touch any with my finger.

My questions:
1. Should i keep running it and see what happens?
2. Should the rocker shafts be "soaked" in oil or does it just run inside them? (i am 100% sure they are the right way around according to the end notch).
3. Are there any ways to really check if i have oil flow to the whole engine? (removing the oil temp sensor will only prove its getting to the oil pump won't it).

The idea of running an engine with no oil makes me very nervous and the thought of destroying my last few weeks work is not a nice one to say the least...

Any ideas greatly appriciated. Thank you in advance.

I finally worked out how to get it here, this may explain the problem your'e having, Regards Frank

Originally Posted by Tank

Did you replace the cam bearings in the block, I haven't had a look at the 3.5 oiling system, but most V8's oil the rockers via the cam bearings, by a hole/oil gallery from the main bearings to the cam bearing then around the cam shaft bearing journal through a groove in the bearing shell or the camshaft journal and and out through a hole/s in the cam bearing tunnel and up to the rockers. If the holes in the cam bearing shells do not line up with these holes/oil galleries then NO oil will get to the rockers, if they have moved they may have partially blocked these holes or completely. If you didn't change the cam bearings you may have knocked them out of alignment when you fitted the new camshaft, did you have any problems getting the camshaft in, were any of the cam journals a tight fit, it doesn't have to move far to block off the oil gallery, anyway have a look at the manual and see which bearings transport the oil to the rockers, it may only be one, two or all of them, worth checking, Regards Frank.

I've been flicking thru my manuals (thats more than one). FYI they are:
1. Haynes Range Rover 1970-1985 3528cc
2. Workshop manual - Range Rover (Land Rover Publication)
3. 3.5/3.9 & 4.2 litre V8 engine - Overhaul manual (Land Rover Publication)

I have noted:
1. Only manual #3 mentions priming the tappets in a jar of oil - i missed that, as i didn't really use this manual.
2. The Haynes manual re: camshaft removal says "...the bearings cannot be renewed; if they are damaged a new block will be required." Doesn't sound much like a part thats gonna move easily if i slightly tap it with the camshaft, although i must add, the cam bearings are listed in my parts catalogue that i use . I was very careful with the camshaft.
3. The "fitting rocker shafts and push rods" page shown in the last post seems to point out that the shafts are "handed", as are the shaft baffles. I made particular note of this well before refitting them, checking them as i went, after, and as i currently have the rocker covers off, checked them again.
4. IMHO it is unlikely that i have a blockage in the rocker shaft, as the same is happening on both sides - no oil to the pushrods and beyond.

Now, while i'm quoting from these books, i'd like to add this point from the Haynes manual section "49 Engine - initial start-up after overhaul or major repair", keeping in mind, as you read, that i (and many of you too, from your posts) have had no proper oil flow to the rockers, tappets and cam - and we all know the damage that can do:
"3. As soon as the engine fires and runs, keep it going at a fast tickover only (not faster) and bring it up to normal working temperature. Do not exceed 1000 rpm initially, or the crankshaft rear oil seal may be damaged.
4. Tappet noise will be experienced initially on starting up after an overhaul or major repair. This noise should vanish quite quickly as the tappets fill with oil. If excessive noise is apparent, run the engine at around 2500 rpm which should eliminate any tappet noise."

Normal working temperature is quite a long time. So, where's the mention in there of, i don't know, "if excessive noise is apparent, turn the bloody thing off before your new bits become very worn, very quick"???

I think i've said enough.

G`day Pete

I understand the words but i don`t understand all of your points , can you be more specific or simple , maybe ? ( not the cam , the no proper oil flow to rockers )

Do you think it`s right or do you think there is a lack of flow ?

Cheers

Hi Bulldog, you've already got the rocker covers off soooo,,,,
pull the rocker shafts off, pull the spark plugs out and crank it over with the starter. This will tell you if you are getting oil to the bottom of the rocker shaft post.
I did this with mine before start up, pumped oil about 1m into the air.
This way you will know for sure. If you are not getting oil to the post, then you have a blockage lower down, heads or block, either way, no fun
If you do get oil to the posts, then you have a blockage in the post or the shaft, and you have them off already, so easy fix

Although its getting to the level of Trainspotting, you can get new cam bearings. Its just that Rover do not supply them.
Regards Philip A

Originally Posted by PLR

G`day Pete

I understand the words but i don`t understand all of your points , can you be more specific or simple , maybe ? ( not the cam , the no proper oil flow to rockers )

Do you think it`s right or do you think there is a lack of flow ?

Cheers

Hi PLR
No oil flow to the rocker shafts. All i was saying there was that others seem to have experienced the same problems as me. That being, done an overhaul and found there is no oil getting to the rocker shafts, and therefore the lifters too (and had to tip oil/ATF/deisel down the push rods). My rant about the manual was just simply saying that the manual takes it for granted that everything is working properly. In my case, if i followed the manual's guide and revved the engine at 2500rpm until after it warmed up, the engine would most likely be dead by now. It was just an observation i made in my nights reading.

Originally Posted by Discobunny

Hi Bulldog, you've already got the rocker covers off soooo,,,,
pull the rocker shafts off, pull the spark plugs out and crank it over with the starter. This will tell you if you are getting oil to the bottom of the rocker shaft post.
I did this with mine before start up, pumped oil about 1m into the air.
This way you will know for sure. If you are not getting oil to the post, then you have a blockage lower down, heads or block, either way, no fun
If you do get oil to the posts, then you have a blockage in the post or the shaft, and you have them off already, so easy fix

That's a good idea, Discobunny, i will do that (if/when i get the torque wrench again). But as i said, it's happening on both sides so more likely to be a problem common to each (ie. the block, oil pump etc). Although, if the heads had sat around a while, any gunk in them may have gone dry... Worth a try