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Every thing is relative.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tombie2
If a Powerchip will make a 'slight improvement' in the vehicles towing ability, it is worth it. Anything has to be better than what it has.
New cam = $$$, head work more $$$$, etc, more $$$$$ then after market chip, extra $$$$$, which = $,$$$ of petrol :D
There is a thin line between "more bang for your buck".
Exactly...Quote:
Originally Posted by RonMcGr
But a Petrol has almost no scope for changes...
To make a petrol "air pump" better you need fuel & Air...
I chipped my V8... No useable gains were achieved.
I re-cammed it, added an aftermarket ECU and head work and got real useable gains in torque and power.
Unfortunately this is the reality with a petrol engine.
Forced induction can circumvent the more air issue, and then more fuel etc.. for more go... Can yield good gains in torque and power, but it comes at a large cost.
Well if I have to comment I will. "Opinions are like bums. Everyone has one"
IMHO the question of Powerchips vs interceptors on V8s depends on a lot of individual circumstances.
Which V8? The 3.9 certainly benefits from an interceptor probably more than a Powerchip as the standard fuelling is pretty OK. The major gains from an interceptor are from timing. This is because the old 3.9 has a dizzy and is tuned to operate on camel urine. ( to be accurate 87 octane)
A Powerchip/Tornado is a replacement ECU integrated chip with different values. They are valuable if you want to run a 4.6 on a 14CUX as they take out the maximum % limitation of injector duration. BUT they do nothing for timing. So IMHO would give smaller gains. I understand that the standard 14CUX chip runs lean at 120KMh road speed for the UK fuel economy tests. The Tornado removes this and also richens at high revs.
I would think that an interceptor would give modest/small gains on a GEMS or Motronic as they have integrated advance curves and knock sensors. From feedback I have heard this seems to be borne out in practice. By the same token there would be little to gain from a Powerchip. Except to remove the manufacturers safety margins/emissions compliance.
An interceptor can do most of what a powerchip ( to trim fuel values)can do except change maximum injector duration, remove max speed retriction, change idle speed, that a Tornado can do for example.
On the other hand most interceptors these days have a timing correction curve where the interceptor replaces the vacuum advance function and can be used to selectively add or reduce timing by 500RPM increments and small (5%) TPS %. The Powerchip or similar does not do this at all.
IMHO the $1400 spent on an interceptor for a 3.9 is well spent if you do not intend to increase engine size, want seamless drivebility with all the good things about the stock ECU . Bang for the buck is good with % increases in the teens ,typically 15%. If you are a person who doesn't want to know what is under the bonnet like a GenY( like my son) it is a particularly good approach as it is set and forget.
On the other hand if you are like Tombie11 and are willing to watch a screen and advance the timing while driving, I contend that an aftermarket ECU will give many happy hours of occupation. I priced a Haltech with tuning as a turnkey with a reputable supplier and got a $3000 plus answer.
It is unlikely however that without literally hundreds of hours of dyno or driving tuning that the Haltech car will come anywhere near a factory ECU in startability or drivability. A holden ECU has something like 68 fuel maps that come into play depending on temp etc etc and even the old 14CUX has a few.
Graeme Cooper said to me a couple of years ago that he hated fitting aftermarket ECUs as the customer was never happy, as they could never get them to run properly under all conditions. I personally recall being at the Stockton cleanup with our club pres who has an 86? with 4.6 and Motec( the BEST). It took him 5 minutes to start after coming off the beach.Mine started in about 2 revolutions.
So its horses for courses.
from personal experience I disagree that cams and head work are better avenues. I have personally modified my heads using sound principles and gained 7% across the board. The time I took was 30hours plus and even if I was slow, the cost for someone to do it would be $2000plus.
CAMS. I strongly believe the best cam is a standard cam. Car makers put thousands of hours into cam research. What I always wonder about aftermarket cams is why they all have high lift (usually 0.4in on a Rover V8) while NO OEM cams have high lift. I can only assume that it is because this increases wear, noise and side thrust on the guides expotentially. While it seems you can get good gains with a cam, most people overcam engines, and this is a disaster in an automatic as they will not idle in drive. A towing cam may be appropriate and give extra power but I haven't yet been game to try. I have added cams to engines in the past and had mixed results.( probably because I overcammed LOL)
If Holden can make a turd of an engine like the old iron 3.8( which was after all 3/4 of a Buick 350 which was a successor to the Buick 215 ie Rover V8) quite a good performer with electronics then it is certainly possible to improve the old 3.9.
Regards Philip A
whats an interceptor?? its all japanese to me lol
Thanks Phillip,
I cancelled the fitting this morning and will now look for a Haltech unit. Once I told Cameron that the 3.9 had a dizzy, he did say it would be better if the timing was included.
Cheers,
Ron
Thanks to Phillips advice, I'm now going down a different track.
After numerous phone calls, I finally found some one who has fitted "Interceptors" to Rover 3.9 V8's and know what he is talking about.
Kelvin at C.N.J MotorSport, it the man.
Last week a new Unichip was released that suits the 3.9 to a "T". He tells me there are two types of amplifiers in the dizzy, one is compatible and the other not.
He can also install twin maps for low and high octane petrol, which is hand if travelling west and you have to take what fuel you can buy.
So, the power chip was going to be $1,000 fitted, for fuel only.
The Unichip $1,450 fitted, plus $150 for duel mapping and an extra $200 if the Dizzy is not compatible.
Knowing my luck, it won't be :mad:
Anyway, this is the closest I can get to, "Graeme Cooper"!
Cheers,
Ron
As i said .. Phillip has been through the mill
Hi Guys,
As I said in my earlier I pruchased a Haltech Interceptor 2 from Graeme Cooper and found the below Dyno stats/increases.
obviously have not had time to detrmine my fuel consumption but when dynoed I recieved a 30Kw and about 30-40Nm power increase at the wheels. This sort of increase is certainly noticable on the road and the low down torque (idle-1700rpm) is greatly increased.
The Haltech unit is a complete Management system ($1200 Incl. install, configs and Dyno)that plugs into the existing ECU, which also means that when I sell the vehicle I can just unplug the unit and add re-install it into my next vehicle. I have a High compresssion 4.0 and as I commented before the low down torque is a complete transformation. We did a Dyno last week on the stock engine which produced 68Kw's at the rear wheels which I am told by Graeme Cooper was a little on the low side. I checked engine compression and all clearances which were all well within recommended specifications (engine has done 58000Klm's).
I have been told that the ECU upgrade that is supplied by Bruce Davis is just re-mapped chip and is not configured to your indiviual engine tolerances so I think the extra money is worth it.
I will let you know the fuel consumption figure at a later date.
Cheers
Glenn
Update?Quote:
Originally Posted by LavisLane
I'm also interested in the Haltech Interceptor as I believe it can be dual mapped for LPG/petrol in both fuel and ignition.
My GEMS 4.6 has been worked over a bit. It now has high compression pistons, a towing cam, and worked heads - all done at Bruce Davis Performance Landys. It has also been fitted with sequential vapour injection LPG.
Bruce wants to rechip mine.