Caution with E10 fuel

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Originally Posted by Lotz-A-Landies

for months. I even worry about leaving the petrol sitting in my dual fuel RRc. So will run on it till the tanks nearly empty then wait until the cheap days in the cycle.

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Yes , and a caution to anyone in a bushfire risk area . You need to change the fuel in your fire pumps each fire season. The stale petrol will result in hard starting or non-starting ... the last thing you want if a fire is at the door.

A chap down the road has 20 year old red SUPER grade lead petrol sitting in old car wrecks, it starts instantly .... the difference is quite amazing.

Long stroke engines ( like ours ) perform well on slower burning petrol and some vintage vehicle owners add 10% diesel or kero to their modern petrol to deliberately lower the octane . Modern petrol evaporates at a quicker rate too .. they use a wider range of fractions at the refinery these days squeezing as much out of the crude as they can.. older petrol had a narrower range within the crude oil base.

Biofuels FAQ

The above site lists E10 as not suitable for aircraft, not generally recommended for marine (because of the danger of water contaminating the fuel) and do not leave in the tank of small engines (lawnmowers, chainsaws etc.) for more than a few weeks.

It's also interesting to read the list of cars not suitable. Seems that a lot of European cars are designed for the E5 available in Europe and not E10. Land Rover is listed as OK post 1986.

Capability of vehicles to satisfactorily operate on Ethanol Blend petrol : FCAI

Colin

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Originally Posted by gromit

Biofuels FAQ

The above site lists E10 as not suitable for aircraft, not generally recommended for marine (because of the danger of water contaminating the fuel) and do not leave in the tank of small engines (lawnmowers, chainsaws etc.) for more than a few weeks.

It's also interesting to read the list of cars not suitable. Seems that a lot of European cars are designed for the E5 available in Europe and not E10. Land Rover is listed as OK post 1986.

Capability of vehicles to satisfactorily operate on Ethanol Blend petrol : FCAI

Colin

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The problem with such lists is that they are a list of engines that have been certified by manufacturers as suitable. The implication is that anything not on the list is not suitable, but in most cases it simply means that there has been no testing, and hence the situation is unknown. The same goes for the use in aircraft, where unknowns are regarded very seriously - it took many years before motor fuel was approved at all for use in aircraft, and it is still only approved on a case by case basis.

John

I have a 2000 V8 disco with the low compression motor. Every time i put E10 or premium petrol in it,it gets a rattle like a tapet rattle. As soon as i put standard 91 octane petrol in the rattle stops.Does any else have this problem,what is it, and is it doing damage?

I drive 1976 petrol Series 3 and have the drip feed lead replacement fitted.
I have noticed that my local servo (Shell Woy Woy ) no longer offers standard unleaded only unleaded + E10 and unleaded premium - at a very premium price. :angry: I understand the removal of standard unleaded is an ongoing process. Does anybody know if E10 fuel is ok for use in series landrovers provided that it is not left idle for long periods of time?.:confused:

The only significant issue with Ethanol at the ~10% level is that it vapourises far more readily, so VOC emissions while refuelling are much higher. E-10 approved cars need to be designed with much larger charcoal cannisters.

E85 is already here at at least 2 servos (syd and melbourne). Saab sells an E-85 compatible car here, and holden make one which they sell in Brazil.

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Originally Posted by Lotz-A-Landies

Actually when series 1 engines were designed 1930's petrol was almost pure petroleum with basically the only additive being lead. The fuel could sit in a drum for years with barely any change in it's octane level.

These days fuel has so many octane boosters and other additives that everything degrades rather rapidly and noticeable drops in octane levels detectable within weeks. Not the type of fuel to sit unused in a vehicle or gerrycan for months. I even worry about leaving the petrol sitting in my dual fuel RRc. So will run on it till the tanks nearly empty then wait until the cheap days in the cycle.

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Sorry Diana, but there is no such thing as "pure petroleum"

Petroleum always has and always will be a complex and variable mix of hydrocarbons.

I assume that the tetraethyl lead (which supplied 4 RON points at levels when it was used at when super was phased out) does not degrade, or inhibits oxidation of the fuel.

If anything, modern fuels could be regarded as more "pure", as they use aromatics and other hydrocarbons to reach the necessary octane levels, rather than additives like lead.

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Originally Posted by series1buff

Long stroke engines ( like ours ) perform well on slower burning petrol and some vintage vehicle owners add 10% diesel or kero to their modern petrol to deliberately lower the octane .

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Isn't diesel the equvelant of stupid low octane fuel? I would have thought it would do the opposite of the desired outcome. Kero maybe ????

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Originally Posted by isuzurover

<snip>
Sorry Diana, but there is no such thing as "pure petroleum"

Petroleum always has and always will be a complex and variable mix of hydrocarbons.

I assume that the tetraethyl lead (which supplied 4 RON points at levels when it was used at when super was phased out) does not degrade, or inhibits oxidation of the fuel.

If anything, modern fuels could be regarded as more "pure", as they use aromatics and other hydrocarbons to reach the necessary octane levels, rather than additives like lead.

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Ben

I stand corrected (again) however the fact that petrol stored from decades ago, be it because of the neurotoxic poison tetra ethyl lead or other additives, degrades very slowly, if at all, while the petrol in currently available mixtures seem to degrade quite quickly.

On one single point, I was under the impression that the tetra ethyl lead added to petrol was used as an anti-knock agent and not as part of any octane boosting?

Diana

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Originally Posted by Lotz-A-Landies

Ben



On one single point, I was under the impression that the tetra ethyl lead added to petrol was used as an anti-knock agent and not as part of any octane boosting?

Diana

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That's what Octane rating is all about, it's about anti-knock properties.:)

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Originally Posted by Lotz-A-Landies

On one single point, I was under the impression that the tetra ethyl lead added to petrol was used as an anti-knock agent and not as part of any octane boosting?

Diana

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As mentioned, Octane (rating), or more correctly Research Octane Number (RON), is related to the ability of a fuel to prevent knock.

TEL adds 4 RON points (which is why standard ULP was ~4 RON lower than super when first introduced).

There is also Motor Octane Number (MON). To confuse things (or just to be different), the US uses (RON+MON)/2 or some other silly ratio, where most other countries use RON.

The molecule Octane, C8H18 has no real relationship to octane ratings. Octane ratings are determined using an "Octane engine" - an internal combustion engine with a variable compression ratio and a knock sensor. It is calibrated using pure naptha.