Thread: TD5 Boost Limit Box group buy

Originally Posted by Slunnie

Does the TD5 have some type of altitude compensation or something like that? I'm just surprised it references pressure like that rather than as a pressure differential from atmospheric.

Yes it does.


The ambient pressure sensor gives a voltage between 0V and 5V output proportional to ambient pressure.
This is used to maintain boost pressure when changes in ambient pressure occur.
Also used to reduce the ammount of smoke produced as high altitudes.

The ambient temprature sensor which is built into the same sensor also gives a voltage between 0V and 5V proportional to ambient temprature.
This is used in the exhaust gas over temprature protection and in turbo overspeed protection strategies.

The ambient pressure and temp sensor is locatedin the airbox lid.

If the ambient temp sensor fails it defaults to 37C thus reducing exhaust gas tempratures.
If the ambient pressure sensor part fails it will default to 95/6Kpa thus lowering the allowed boost and achieving turbo protection.


Regards Pete

Dave isnt your ECU upgrade a Toombraider job???
Im pretty sure Peter would be pretty familiar with the upgrade.
Andrew

since you started out talking in PSI if you look at the PSI as absolute from your first post

Originally Posted by B-A-S

The box will allow you to run any boost you require,althow i only recomend 17.5-18psi max as there are other limiting factors on the TD5 engine that will cause problems if more than that is run continuously.

and thats only a paltry 2.8-3.3 Psi of boost over atmospheric pressure. which is an alarmingly low 25ish KPa advantage as an absolute pressure difference or a 125ish kpa if its a gauge reading (Im assuming it is) since the boost cut is set at 242kpa before adding your box then your only getting half way up the available boost.



Some of your information (as Ive said earlier) does not jell with the info I have which includes the Raves and the T4 system for doing diagnostics works.

The basics of it is this.

I dont endorse aftermarket butchery that I cant dissect for functionality and other potential problems...


The reason the ECU cuts boost is because something is overcooked your system essentially masks the symptom and not the problem. Thats always a bad thing in my books.

Because I have no idea how your box works and how it does its trickery I have no way of knowing exactly what other things it might mask or make worse. given the info youve posted up earlier off of the top of my head I can think of 4 ways of doing what you are trying to do starting out using a 555 timer to do the pulse modulation required and then just using the wiring to feed voltage in and never give the ECU anything like the info it needs all the way through to setting up a Picaxe with hand coded software that will chop the tops off of the boost signal along with ramping it smoothly to provide a cleaner ramping of the response of the fuel map to the rising boost pressure delivering more driveability or flipping that around and allowing the ECU to see more boost thus upping the fuel delivery forcing a harder turbo response but still chopping the peaks off so that you never hit the ECU's boost limitation.



If the Mike you mentioned in your first post is the same Mike that I know I'll eyeball one then.

Just for discussions sake...

If the wastegate actuator is preset at 1.305 ATM what (expressed in PSI(g) and PSI(a) )is the attainable boost pressure inside the inlet manifold excluding losses and without over spooling the turbocharger.

17.5-18psi over atmospheric pressure not including.



Pete

Originally Posted by Blknight.aus

Some of your information (as Ive said earlier) does not jell with the info I have which includes the Raves and the T4 system for doing diagnostics works.

Sorry Dave i dont use Rave or T4 for my information regarding the Storm engine managament.

I actualy use the official 48 page documents Rave and T4 softwares information was originaly writen from.

Originally Posted by Blknight.aus

The reason the ECU cuts boost is because something is overcooked your system essentially masks the symptom and not the problem.

Yes you are correct to an extent, BUT The problem been in this case would be that the owner has decided to mechanicly adjust boost on the wastegate.

Therefore im providing a soloution to the unnormaly mechanicaly adjusted wastegate.

Originally Posted by B-A-S

17.5-18psi over atmospheric pressure not including.
To me your questions and answers are not atualy about product intrest, they seem and i may be wrong to be about your self and your knowlage that you want to share.
If you want to share your knowlage produce me a scema and ill produce the box for you and sell it as yours, afterall it WILL be better im sure.

Pete

Actually I have a vested interest in this product.. odds are that if a td5 with one of your boxes comes in with problems then questions will be asked in the tech forum. If I know how an added in box works I can attract or detract it from the list of potential causes of problems....

Thats why Im not reccomending it. I dont know how it works and you dont want to share your info..

Originally Posted by B-A-S

The box will allow you to run any boost you require,althow i only recomend 17.5-18psi max as there are other limiting factors on the TD5 engine that will cause problems if more than that is run continuously.


Regards Pete

fair enough theres other factors that will limit the boost, what are they?

Originally Posted by B-A-S

The D2 running the modulator allows a combined atmospheric and charge pressure of upto 242Kpa to be seen in the inlet manifold for no more than 400ms before it gives limp boost and fuel cut which is 10Kpa and 20Mg of fuel at the same time as running a base maf reading of 100Kpa which is actualy atmospheric pressure.

BUT it ONLY allows this if controled/made by its self in certian scenarios it does not run this pressure all the time and does not allow it to be mechanicly done by a third party.

So yes you can run more boost than standard with mechanical adjustments but the side effects that happen are more than most think.

Regards Pete

would one of those side effects of a mechanical adjustment be, say, hitting the over boost cut limit because the map sensor is detecting an overboost situation...

Isnt that what your box is supposed to prevent?

what other side effects are there of more boost within the limitations set by the original non tampered with ECU limitations?

Originally Posted by B-A-S

I fully apreciate what you are stating and it possibile from logging data from the ecu you may see some of this information but belive me side effects will be present.

I prefer not to get into a forum debate on the electronics of this car as it will take me ages to type out and explane the running stratgies of this car and the reasons for them etc etc.

All i can say in short, is what i already have and the box works and does what is says on the tin.


Some info on the standard modulator for reference if any one is intrested

The turbo wastegate modulator allows the pressure required to open the wastegate valve to be alterd so boost pressure can be controled as it desires.

This actuator requires a PWM signal from the ecu to operate correctly.
The valve operates at a fequency of less than 50Hz.

Vsat(A21 to GND) Isink=0.40A max 0.19V
Current trip level (assuming load variation of -+10% min 2.6-12A
+ve Clamp voltage@Isink=10mA (Drive Off) Max Vbatt+1.5
-Ve Clamp Isink= -10mA -1.5V


Regards Pete

thats the second time you mentioned side effects and for someone who didn't want to go into technicalities typing out the op-params of a component from its data sheet seems to be getting pretty technical. As you didnt want to waste time explaining the operation strategies of the engine but did anyway, why not continue so that those who might be a bit skeptical of how your box fits into the grand scheme of things might be swayed?

Originally Posted by B-A-S

Yes the engine is still protected because other components and sensors on the engine will provide faults if boost reaches more than my box allows.

Regards Pete

now thats the second time youve mentioned that theres things that arent affected by your box that protect the engine.. just for a sense of security to prove that my concept that your box might be potentially dangerous to the engine why not let us know what they are and how they will stop the engine from massive overboost.

Originally Posted by B-A-S

I fully apreciate your concerns and totaly understand your questions.
The fail safe is lifted ultimatly from the standard pressure and would cut back in around 23psi IF other systems dont do it automaticly first.

What i will never says is "It will be fine" the cosice to modify your car will always remain your responcibility and i always state any tuning done to a car could have problems, if a customer has any worries what so ever i dont recomend you do it.

Ultimatly what i make and sell is tested to the best of my abilitys but if im not fitting the product and setting it up i cant be held responsible for misuse or incorrect fitting.
When i produce a product i do my best to cover all angles regarding relilability of the product and the car its fitted to but in the unforeseen circumstance problems may happen as will all modifications.

Regards Pete

hang on....

isnt 23 Psi of boost what Im running? isnt that supposed to be over what is safe to do and cant be achieved without your box fitted?


unless your setting it up? isnt it ment to be plug'n'play? what setting up can there be?

oh and hey, thats the 3rd mention of other systems that will cut the boost back anyway...

In case I didnt ask already what are those systems?

And call me a pedant if you like but if those other systems weren't reading in sync with the system that your changing wouldn't the system decide that something was not as cool as it should be and flag errors...


Just, you know, Exploring nuances.

Dave ive explained what the box does and how it works,im not going to go into what is inside or provide schemas for it,
Why should i !!. Do Motorola give me the schemas for there ecus just because id like them to? I think not.

Nor am i the forum diagnostic guru at beck and call to you, im here because i want to offer help in other posts when i want to offer it and not be forced to give it just because you say jump or make a intimidating post making me feel i have to.

About your comment on the grand scheme of things that people might be swayed, I don’t want to sway anyone into my products with words alone nor force them to buy anything from me.
As for this post i think that you have tried your hardest to jeopardize this thread and peoples understandings of the system already there fore i will now choose not to sell the box to AU customers and will leave it up to you to produce your own better box that in your mind is safer with more whistles resistors and 555 timers than mine.
Or if you feel the need don’t produce and repair the what may or may not be car faults with your T4 and Rave CD.


If you have a car that comes into your workshop that is still giving overboost and it’s got a box fitted, then the box may have failed somehow so remove it in undamaged state and ill replace it if it’s faulty.

But looking in live data and making logs you been the expert would see if the boost limit was hit so you could then make an expert decision on what the problem actually was.
If the live data logs show the boost limit is still hit then you may have a box fault,
if not then do your expert diagnostic job your self and look elsewhere in the system,
you have offended me with your postings and the way you have gone about what you have so i now feel i cant help you even if i wanted to for fear of you stating i was wrong.
You have more thinking going on than you actually let on and i feel that you are only here in this thread to try and intimidate me because you know better.

On the other factors that limit boost on fail safe strategies, look on your T4 or Rave im not here to TRY and help then get slammed back down by you just because you own a garage.
Or to have you post a reply stating im wrong or i do it wrong.

If your running a combined charge and atmospheric pressure of 258.5794Kpa you say you are,
make some live data logs your self in T4 and then you will see what goes out of scale then you will know what sensors are also boost or air related, I then wont have to try and explain and you tell me im wrong again.

Im not going to be forced by you into a full on debate about diagnostics of the td5 because this thread was not about that in the first place.

Regarding the technicalities i posted, this was to show you that you are not speaking to a monkey and i do actually know and have the data needed to back up my theories.
But in the same post it was actually answering a GENUINE question asked, and not a dig at someone you know nothing about.

I fully appreciate that you are a garage owner and have a superb understanding of the TD5 and respect that, and on the same note i don’t want to argue with you or be bouncing non constructive posts back and forth at each other just because we can, i can’t see the point.
I don’t know if ive offended you somehow and this is why you are making such a big deal of something you have no real interest in.
If you can do a better job of enabling people to run higher boost than the ecu will allow then feel free to do so.


May be you want me to post you a copy of the Thunder job engine management system data so you can read for your self its strategies ??


Ps im sorry to the rest of the forum if my attitude has come over wrong and i sincerely apologize,
The posts made by me in this thread are not normally how i would make answers, and i don’t normally post comments like i have directed at other members.
But im not going to be forum bullied or pushed around by other so-called expert members that have something to prove.
Normal question and answers are what im used to on forums, not the im better than you and you are wrong approach.

Sorry


May be some other forum members will post there findings on overboost and list its problems and standard or correct way cure without fitting a box.

Regards Pete

dont worrie about it pete! there are alot of experts here.

May be some other forum members will post there findings on overboost and list its problems and standard or correct way cure without fitting a box.

as stated in my first post, there havnt been any problems with my boost box AT ALL, apart from blowing the egr/IC hose off! but i spose the gauge did hit 28ish psi and maybee i should have had 3 hose clamps not 2

i ran 26psi for 6months and loved it, but im back to 24psi as this is where i have a good deal of power and i have knocked alot of the smoke out of the system.

cheers phil