Thread: 2012 Defender Details released

Interesting... But why the fasination with bigger engines and how much bigger?

Dont get me wrong, I dont want smaller, greener or any of that rubbish, but 2.5L - 3.0L would be ideal. I really cant see the fascination with BIG engines (Now gearing on the other hand, yep, defo needs sorting, admit the Puma is a massive step forward there.)

Lets not forget, a slightly tuned TD5 can easily munch its way through clutches, props, diff's and half-shafts if driven moderatley hard / when heavily loaded.

To put a bigger engine in will really only benefit the driver by producing more torque, the very thing that kills the above mentioned items. Therefore, to maintain reliability all the drivetrain would need to be upgraded also. LR simply wouldnt invest the $$$ in a simple vehicle refresh. We need to wait for the Defender replacement before we can hope to see any torquier engines as standard.

Personsally Id love to see the new 3.0L D4 drivetrain in the Defer replacement and some proper noise reduction, and I dont mean a free pair of ear-muffs with every purchase!

Jon

The defender needs 4'' added to it's cabin width,a 3ltr four cylinder T/D,hypiod diffs with stronger axles/half shafts.Thats it,people can mod from there. Pat

The problem is york-john LR and in particular defender production is being managed by accountants who have killed the defender by trying to save money. If they spent around (in mass production money) $3000 aus they could have a vehicle that would be competitive and make more sales.
Stronger axles/cv for every defender would cost about 1/2 ashcroft/great basin/lucky8 in mass production, a 3.2td5 from ford or the 2.7tdv6 about $500-1000 difference to the 2.2, flog the crash can and duel front airbags of the 94-5 disco to have it and you will be able to compete head to head with the japanese utes and sell to fleets. Instead someone in LR would suggest these upgrades and get shot down by an accountant saying no way at current production levels

Frantic is spot on: if LR stuffed the TDV6 into the Defender the problem would be solved.

My crikey, everybody and their dog are doing that conversion these days, there are virtually plug & play kits on the shelf.

But LR hides behind some carbon tax or some such crap. Despite the fact that the TDV6 engines are all being built by Peugeot and Renault IN EUROPE......

So they are just letting some bean counter kill the defender based on what?
Surely not on development costs, the engines are done & dusted! The ECUs and TCUs are there, the transmissions are there.
So they have to upgrade the axles and drivetrain slightly? My heck, stronger stuff is available off the shelf from Borg Warner and other independent third parties all over the world.
Toyota, Nissan and other Japanese manufacturers buy from one common supplier most of the time, so why not Tata?

Nope sorry, I fail to see a clear argument for the current engine limitations in the Defender. I think it's plain short sightedness.

I'll be happy to debate this with anybody who can come with a proper rebuttal.

simple, you dont need a huge engine and there are tax breaks for utility vehicles based on engine capacity in a lot of countries.

in euro land its often less than 100Ks from town to town (and in some places you can cross a country in that distance) on roads that are not as straight as most of ours.

the defenders stock suspension is not really up to "spirited" driving on road so you dont really need the power there and off road, youve got the lowest low range out of the box in an offroader so why do you need the big donk there?

hell I remember when a 2.25 naturally aspirated petrol 4 pot was all you really needed to get the job done. the same power that that donk used to produce can now be made from a 500cc 3 pot turbo diesel.

need a big engine, nope, Quite happy back here with an Na 2.25 diesel thanks. (not that thats going to stop me stuffing in a turbo 3.9 with more boost than the tyre pressures into frankenrover)

"simple, you dont need a huge engine and there are tax breaks for utility vehicles based on engine capacity in a lot of countries."

So why do the Fords, Nissans et al utilities come with bigger motors?
They're lighter, have less GVM, but the Defender that is rated at 3.5T GVM wouldn't be able to pull that comfortably?
And the TDV6 is 2.7 and hardly HUGE.

"in euro land its often less than 100Ks from town to town (and in some places you can cross a country in that distance) on roads that are not as straight as most of ours."

So now LR only makes cars for Europe? No wonder it's showing declining sales.

"the defenders stock suspension is not really up to "spirited" driving on road so you dont really need the power there and off road, youve got the lowest low range out of the box in an offroader so why do you need the big donk there?"

To maintain a safe, economical cruising speed while loaded. As for spirited driving: most current generation ECUs can record/measure road speed, so speed limit the vehicle. BMW does it already, as do most car manufacturers.
As for the suspension: it's the same basic suspension as used on the Land Cruiser 105, rated at 180kmh, so that's a rubbish argument. A BMW can do 250km/h, but not necessarily around a corner designed for 90km/h. If you try it, you're a fool. If you try the same with a Defender at 140km/h, you're still a fool.

"hell I remember when a 2.25 naturally aspirated petrol 4 pot was all you really needed to get the job done. the same power that that donk used to produce can now be made from a 500cc 3 pot turbo diesel."

Hell I remember when 90km/h was really fast because we had no highways, but what's your point?

"need a big engine, nope, Quite happy back here with an Na 2.25 diesel thanks. (not that thats going to stop me stuffing in a turbo 3.9 with more boost than the tyre pressures into frankenrover)"

So why no OPTIONAL detuned, lower tech TDV6 with variable vane turbos and maybe smaller injectors for the Defender? I guarantee you Land Rover won't be able to satisfy demand.

And as mentioned, add a driver's and passenger's airbag, some interior roll-cage strength (side impact bars behind the sills, stronger steel pillars, door impact bars), and you'll satisfy most of the safety concerns.

Sorry, no convincing points there.

Originally Posted by jakeslouw

Frantic is spot on: if LR stuffed the TDV6 into the Defender the problem would be solved.

But LR hides behind some carbon tax or some such crap. Despite the fact that the TDV6 engines are all being built by Peugeot and Renault IN EUROPE......

I think the only problem with the TDV6 is the high cost per unit compared to the ZSD Series Puma Engine 2.2L. If you want the TDV6 you are going to have to pay high end Disco and Range Rover Prices

Keep the 4 banger and keep Freelander prices!

Also the TDV6 is not made in France it's made in Dagenham outside london, This factory also makes Engines for the 2012 Ford Territory Diesel and they are shipped to Australia where they are tuned and tested before being fitted.

Defender is only just making a profit on each unit now, 2006-07 was a massive cost cutting operation on the defender cheaper parts were sourced etc more plastic etc. Also the engine which was a high cost low volume engine was ceased (Td5) As they were only making enough for the Defender and this was not viable.

Originally Posted by jakeslouw

"simple, you dont need a huge engine and there are tax breaks for utility vehicles based on engine capacity in a lot of countries."

So why do the Fords, Nissans et al utilities come with bigger motors?
They're lighter, have less GVM, but the Defender that is rated at 3.5T GVM wouldn't be able to pull that comfortably?
And the TDV6 is 2.7 and hardly HUGE.

because they dont market those engines in the same areas as the defender does. the first break point for most engine capacities is the 2.5L mark factory fit a bigger engine as standard and the price rises exponentially as you cant bring the vehicle in at the same taxing bracket. The TDV6 also costs more in the first place. so that's an exponential price increase. Once you put a trailer on you're limited to 100KPH. What are you a tractor puller or something? got to get their fastest and heaviest? the tdi300 with a 5 speed is quite happy with about 6t hanging from it, and the 2.2tdci beats that on torque and power and its got an extra cog in the box to help it along as well.

"in euro land its often less than 100Ks from town to town (and in some places you can cross a country in that distance) on roads that are not as straight as most of ours."

So now LR only makes cars for Europe? No wonder it's showing declining sales.


"the defenders stock suspension is not really up to "spirited" driving on road so you dont really need the power there and off road, youve got the lowest low range out of the box in an offroader so why do you need the big donk there?"

To maintain a safe, economical cruising speed while loaded. As for spirited driving: most current generation ECUs can record/measure road speed, so speed limit the vehicle. BMW does it already, as do most car manufacturers.
As for the suspension: it's the same basic suspension as used on the Land Cruiser 105, rated at 180kmh, so that's a rubbish argument. A BMW can do 250km/h, but not necessarily around a corner designed for 90km/h. If you try it, you're a fool. If you try the same with a Defender at 140km/h, you're still a fool.

IF you cant drive it at high speeds why power it to do so? as for a safe economical driving speed, in most cases given the brickonamics of the defender thats going to be about 80KPH loaded or unloaded. If you want to go faster why not get an american designed vehicle, they have plenty of straight roads but cant build light auto diesels worth a damn.

"hell I remember when a 2.25 naturally aspirated petrol 4 pot was all you really needed to get the job done. the same power that that donk used to produce can now be made from a 500cc 3 pot turbo diesel."

Hell I remember when 90km/h was really fast because we had no highways, but what's your point?

with less than 1/4 of the capacity you can now make the same amount of power

"need a big engine, nope, Quite happy back here with an Na 2.25 diesel thanks. (not that thats going to stop me stuffing in a turbo 3.9 with more boost than the tyre pressures into frankenrover)"

So why no OPTIONAL detuned, lower tech TDV6 with variable vane turbos and maybe smaller injectors for the Defender? I guarantee you Land Rover won't be able to satisfy demand.

because if you tried that on you'd have to have additional parts stock, possibly tooling at the factory and being Euro X complient on emmissions means you cant just detune any more doing so generally blows the NOX emissions out the window

And as mentioned, add a driver's and passenger's airbag, some interior roll-cage strength (side impact bars behind the sills, stronger steel pillars, door impact bars), and you'll satisfy most of the safety concerns.

Sorry, no convincing points there.

not for you perhaps but definately for the sales people