Thread: Where's the Defender wave gone?

Originally Posted by johntins

Hey, if bikes are your thing, go for it. I still say you're mad though

Riding m/bikes keeps you young and offsets dementia....as you have to think for yourself and every other idiot on the road....and if you see a motorcyclist with what looks like a helmet spinning on his head, particularly if you are in a defender or series...then that would be me...checking you out!

Originally Posted by Gordie

Riding m/bikes keeps you young and offsets dementia....as you have to think for yourself and every other idiot on the road

I could say the same thing about heavy vehicle driving. Every idiot can dart in and out, pop up in the mirrors just as I'm changing lanes, and do all the things that idiots do. The one BIG difference is, if a car, or worse, a bike does something stupid near me, the chances are, I'll be going home, having to live with the fact that someone took me on, or just plain misjudged, and THEY won't be going home. It's called suicide by truck, and I REALLY wish people would stop doing it. I've got 34 wheels. You won't miss all of them, no matter how small a ball you roll into. Don't play near trucks. Truckies are people too.

Originally Posted by johntins

I could say the same thing about heavy vehicle driving. Every idiot can dart in and out, pop up in the mirrors just as I'm changing lanes, and do all the things that idiots do. The one BIG difference is, if a car, or worse, a bike does something stupid near me, the chances are, I'll be going home, having to live with the fact that someone took me on, or just plain misjudged, and THEY won't be going home. It's called suicide by truck, and I REALLY wish people would stop doing it. I've got 34 wheels. You won't miss all of them, no matter how small a ball you roll into. Don't play near trucks. Truckies are people too.

Thanks for the post. It's an interesting perspective.

We need stuff delivered.. we need people to do this work. I'm sure that 99+% of truck drivers are very professional drivers.

The other perspective too is people need to get around. It's one thing to say we need stuff delivered - but the whole reason is so we can go to the shops and buy it, and get around.. and live etc.

The issue with these things is the sliding scale of potential for harm. A pedestrian or a person on a bike can do little to harm anyone other than themselves. Then there are motorbikes, then cars, and then trucks. All of which use fossil fuel to amass what would have been an unimaginable amount of kinetic energy only a few hundred years ago. We should expect the people with any potential for harm to behave the most carefully.

Unfortunately though.. all the methods of transport are operated by humans. Every day we see people doing stupid things on the road .. yet we just can't stop people doing them. People know they are doing stupid things but they still do them. I've got no answers.

The culture of safety in the airline industry shows how much could be done. Complex issue.

Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

[...]
The issue with these things is the sliding scale of potential for harm. [...] We should expect the people with any potential for harm to behave the most carefully.

I do struggle to accept this thinking. i.e. Wherever you are on this vehicle size continuum - truck, car, motorbike, bicycle, pedestrian - the operator of the larger of any two vehicles has a greater duty of care.

Am not suggesting its ok for vehicle operators of any vehicle to exercise little care or concern for other road users. I am suggesting that the same (high) level of duty of care should apply across the board with no reference to relative size or relative vulnerability of any specific vehicle.

And perhaps its fair to say that the existing road rules do place a high level of duty of care on all road users already. (Driver of a B-Double reverses over a kid. Driver of a car reverses over a kid. Is one more heinous than the other?)

As such its totally lacking any value for smaller vehicle operators to despise larger.... and vice versa. "You and I got to do for you and I" - Macy Gray from the song, "Do Something"

Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

The issue with these things is the sliding scale of potential for harm. A pedestrian or a person on a bike can do little to harm anyone other than themselves. Then there are motorbikes, then cars, and then trucks. All of which use fossil fuel to amass what would have been an unimaginable amount of kinetic energy only a few hundred years ago. We should expect the people with any potential for harm to behave the most carefully.

Sorry, but I simply don't agree. Everybody has a responsibility. There is no sliding scale for this. Statistics prove that between 65% (VicRoads) and 80% ( NTI ), of crashes involving trucks and cars are the fault of the car driver. People tend to treat trucks as obstacles, something that's in their way, not as something that will kill them if they make a mistake when overtaking, cutting in, or pulling out. A vehicle 26 metres long and potentially 60+ tonnes is not something to disrespect, or disregard.
As for a bicycle doing little harm, you should perhaps look up some stats on that. A cyclist can kill, as has been seen many times, when pedestrians have been knocked down, often by cyclists who don't think traffic lights apply to them.

Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

The culture of safety in the airline industry shows how much could be done.

Idiots fly planes too. I was on the Tulla freeway the day that the, Garuda I think it was, 747 attempted to land at Essendon Airport, when he was supposed to be putting the thing down at Tullamarine. Not sure he kept his job.

The worst disaster in aviation history was caused by a pilot taking off without clearance. KLM 4805 collided with Pan Am 1736 on the runway of Los Rodeos Airport on the Canary Islands, killing 583 people. Admittedly, this incident led to improvements in aviation procedures, but it still happened, and a so called 'professional' caused it.

Originally Posted by johntins

Sorry, but I simply don't agree. Everybody has a responsibility. There is no sliding scale for this. Statistics prove that between 65% (VicRoads) and 80% ( NTI ), of crashes involving trucks and cars are the fault of the car driver. People tend to treat trucks as obstacles, something that's in their way, not as something that will kill them if they make a mistake when overtaking, cutting in, or pulling out. A vehicle 26 metres long and potentially 60+ tonnes is not something to disrespect, or disregard.
As for a bicycle doing little harm, you should perhaps look up some stats on that. A cyclist can kill, as has been seen many times, when pedestrians have been knocked down, often by cyclists who don't think traffic lights apply to them.

Fair enough... It's a strange thing the whole cars VS bikes thing and I've got no time for it.

But just for your reference.. Up until just this year I'm not aware that any cyclist had ever killed a pedestrian in Australia. And it was found to be the pedestrians fault who despite your assertion actually walked against the light. What might be of interest to you.. and this is a stat that isn't often considered. In collisions with pedestrians and cyclists it is usually the cyclist that is more seriously hurt. In fact, there have been an number of incidents where cyclists were killed in collisions with pedestrians. I think the rate is about .75 a year, so not often but it does happen. Meanwhile, around 200 pedestrians a year are killed in collisions with motor vehicles. Humans are funny .. if it happens often enough we tend to ignore it and concentrate on the things that happen rarely.

No Cookies | Herald Sun

Originally Posted by johntins

Idiots fly planes too. I was on the Tulla freeway the day that the, Garuda I think it was, 747 attempted to land at Essendon Airport, when he was supposed to be putting the thing down at Tullamarine. Not sure he kept his job.

The worst disaster in aviation history was caused by a pilot taking off without clearance. KLM 4805 collided with Pan Am 1736 on the runway of Los Rodeos Airport on the Canary Islands, killing 583 people. Admittedly, this incident led to improvements in aviation procedures, but it still happened, and a so called 'professional' caused it.

Yes, idiots fly planes. But unlike professional drivers, one good screw up and it's very likely they will be imprisoned, and also pretty well certain that they'll never work in that industry again.

In case you don't know, Australias biggest nearly crash ever was caused by a pilot data entry error. The crew had pretty much resigned by the time they landed.

The Aviation Herald

Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

Fair enough... It's a strange thing the whole cars VS bikes thing and I've got no time for it.

Nor do I. I believe we all have a responsibility to share the road.

As for cyclist vs pedestrian

Pedestrian dies after being hit by bike in St Kilda

Man struck by cyclist dies - National - theage.com.au

I can find more. Easily.

Originally Posted by johntins

Nor do I. I believe we all have a responsibility to share the road.

As for cyclist vs pedestrian

Pedestrian dies after being hit by bike in St Kilda

Man struck by cyclist dies - National - theage.com.au

I can find more. Easily.

The first one was the one I sent you where the pedestrian walked against the red light. I'd forgotten about the second one. So that's two in ten years.

I'd be fascinated if you can find any more.