Thread: Problem with front radius arm to axle Superpro bushes

Originally Posted by Reads90

Just remember there was a change over between the 300tdi and TD5.

The 300tdi are wider arms and bigger bolts and the Td5 are thinner arms and smaller bolts.

Make sure which you have. After all not unusual for Land Rover to use up the remaining parts before changing to new stock. And as you said you have one of the very early TD5's

So you may have 300tdi arms on a td5 and this would mean TD5 bushes would be lose in them.

Just a thought to put out there

I personally have never had a problem with super pro bushes.

bugger me, more changes!

whats the width of the Td5 arms?
whats the width of the Td5 bush
what dia bolt do they use?

Santiago,
The easiest way to check Panhard vs the "hocky sticks"

have a driver sit in vehicle with engine running and parked on a hard surface (concrete is good)
then as observer watch both the axle and chassis ends of the panhard bush as they gently wobble the steering wheel left to right. Doesnt need to turn much but at least 10 degreesof arc.

You should see no relative movement between the hard links and the Panhard rod itself.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not removed the Panhard and go for a drive

Steve

Originally Posted by roverrescue

Santiago,
The easiest way to check Panhard vs the "hocky sticks"

have a driver sit in vehicle with engine running and parked on a hard surface (concrete is good)
then as observer watch both the axle and chassis ends of the panhard bush as they gently wobble the steering wheel left to right. Doesnt need to turn much but at least 10 degreesof arc.

You should see no relative movement between the hard links and the Panhard rod itself.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not removed the Panhard and go for a drive

Steve

Roverscue,

Thank you very much. Luckyly I had read Rick130's advice this morning (your Saturday night) before grabbing my tools. I also had the "feeling" that maybe it would be risky to remove the Panhard and drive. That's why I asked. Anyways, first thing I did this morning was to check all the bolts and nuts which a tighten all the bushes. Everything was firm. Given that the Panhard bushes looked OK (as far as I could see) I decided to start by the only thing that obviously looked worng: the big bolts that tigthen the radius arm to axle bushes.

Given that my friend's 300Tdi bolts were considerably longer and given that Superpro's web page specifies that late 300Tdi's and early Td5's (like mine) should have the same bushes I suspected that somebody had changed them along the way. So I decided to change the bolts and see if this was the problem.

I did a quick web search and found out that the bolts were supposed to be 16mm (diameter). Went to the local hardware store, bought the nicest 16mm bolts (the yellow shiny ones, probably zinc coated?) I could find (+/- 1.5 cms longer than the ones I had before) together with nuts and whasers. I bought 4 to change them all.

The guy at the shop measured one of the old bolts that I had undone and carried with me as a sample: initially he said it looked like 16mm but after a few seconds he changed his mind and said they were not milimetric, they were 5/8 (of an inch). This comment raised my hopes.

I went back, changed the two on the front side of the axle and gave it a try within my backyard, climbing a 0.4/0.5 meter high log. First try: no clunk, second try: no clunk; did it on reverse (climbing with the rear wheels) and had one clunk in the front axle again but not as loud as before.

Went back to my garage and changed the other two bolts. Since then I tried all the axle articulation I have been abe to do in my backyard (climbing the logs with one wheel at a time) and NO CLUNKS AT ALL. I could easily get many clunks climbing the logs in my backyard if I tried to before changing the bolts.

Bottimline: so far it looks like the bolts were to blame. Apparently they were not only the wrong size but also they were a bit worn and they were too short. I can only imagine that a "clever" mechanic changed the bolts during a previous bush change. I cannot imagine Land Rover using 5/8 bolts in one Defender and 16mm ones in other ones.

Anyways, tomorrow I will do the real and hopefully final test: a nice dry creek bed with some large boulders where I can do some nice articulation about 10 minutes away from my house (too bussy with family stuff today).

I will take pics of the new bolts and of the D110 tomorrow. Thanks everybody for the great help and for the interesnting discussion (apparently never ending) on rubber vs poliurethane.

If I can confirm the results tomorrow I will be able to happily say that the Superpro bushes had nothing to do with the clunks!! It was apparently "human error".

Cheers,
Stgo

Good outcome Santiago - thanks for finishing this thread off on a positive.

My only fear is that a 5/8 bolt is nominally smaller in diameter than an M16.
My understanding is that the crush tube on the SP (and OEM) bushes is for slide fit on M16.
From memory the bushing tube measures out at 16.05mm.

I wonder if your clunks were in fact as Rick was intimating not from the bolt itself but actual wear at the thread diameter vs flange hole on axle. The bolts in your original picture do look particularly short. New bolts with firm torque has clamped the bush nicely for now. Time will tell but me thinks you might be buying those longer M16 at some stage.

Ps not that I have any knowledge of the Argentinian bolt industry but "shiney yellow" coating wil most likely be a Cadmium plating of some flavour.

Steve

Good result. But properly torqued bolts won't move or clunk no matter how much clearance they have. The joint should be tight.

How are you tightening these? Do you have a torque wrench?

Originally Posted by Dougal

How are you tightening these? Do you have a torque wrench?

I'm sure someone on this forum a few years ago suggested that you don't need a torque wrench for those suspension bolts.

You just tighten them enough that you do yourself an injury in the process.

Originally Posted by Dougal

Good result. But properly torqued bolts won't move or clunk no matter how much clearance they have. The joint should be tight.

How are you tightening these? Do you have a torque wrench?

The problem is that a bolt in double shear, ie. in a clevis should not be using the threads as a bearing surface, it will move eventually and flatten the threads as the threads act as a cutter and oversize the bore.

This is why AN airframe bolts have an unthreaded shank length (it's known as grip length) that goes up in 1/64" increments so they can be used in double shear easily.
Any race car I ever spannered that used HT bolts were changed for AN/MS/NAS bolts in clevises, or if using SH cap screws I'd have chronically oversized ones on hand, cut off any excess thread and use a washer or two to fit to length.
I've seen far too many clevises flogged out from bolt threads bearing in them.

Just a shame you can't get aircraft hardware in metric.

Originally Posted by roverrescue

Good outcome Santiago - thanks for finishing this thread off on a positive.

My only fear is that a 5/8 bolt is nominally smaller in diameter than an M16.
My understanding is that the crush tube on the SP (and OEM) bushes is for slide fit on M16.
From memory the bushing tube measures out at 16.05mm.

I wonder if your clunks were in fact as Rick was intimating not from the bolt itself but actual wear at the thread diameter vs flange hole on axle. The bolts in your original picture do look particularly short. New bolts with firm torque has clamped the bush nicely for now. Time will tell but me thinks you might be buying those longer M16 at some stage.

Ps not that I have any knowledge of the Argentinian bolt industry but "shiney yellow" coating wil most likely be a Cadmium plating of some flavour.

Steve

Steve,
Yes you are right, "tornillo cadmeado" is I think what they call theses bolts. Translation would be "cadmium treated bolt"....or somthing similar. Probably "Cd" and not "Zn" then.

Back to the bolt issue. From your comments I am afraid I probably did not explain myself clearly: I bought and installed 16mm bolts and replaced the 5/8 bolts I had before. From my basic math:
5/16 = 0.625
0.625 x 25.4 (mm in one inch) = 15.875mm, which is pretty close to 16mm but is actually smaller so my understanding is this may have been the main cause of the clunks .

I will be able to tell for sure tomorrow after my real world test.
Cheers,
Stgo