Do I really not need to service my Puma for 20,000km?

**CraigE** · 27th April 2015, 10:19 AM

I agree in part and disagree in part. I am certainly not saying you are wrong, just different perspectives.
Oil testing can help track down problems and has its place but not warranted or easily available in most cases unless you suspect an issue. If you are changing regularly the oil testing should not even be required. I see the point on very hardworking or long haul engines and occasionally on vehicles like ours.
Changing the oil every 5000kms is not a waste of time as it keeps the oil in good nic and doing the job it should. For the cost of around $60 every 3 - 6 months or so I will keep up the regime and oils and filters at 10,000kms. Maybe different if you are paying a workshop to do it. I have found that at around 5000kms the oil starts to discolour and break down slightly, but is still very useable after testing, so is not a big deal if you miss one or do an extra couple of thousand kms. At 10000kms oil becomes quite noticeably darker and is vey clear it is starting to break down (moreso degradation from heat rather than contaminants). At 20000kms oil is trashed completely. This is what the LR service schedule was and had this tested when I first got the vehicle. All diesel mechanics I have discussed this with believe 20,000kms is way too much even for light driving, this includes LR specialists who don't agree with the 20,000kms interval, but wont publically say this, but will in private and should be done at a minimum of 10,000kms or there abouts as it gives you a buffer if you go over. They also generally recommend 5000km changes if you do any of the following: Tow heavy loads, Use LR frequently, Run in hot condition, Run in dusty conditions, Have worked hard in mud or sand. Which most of us do.
Maybe not for everyone and 10000kms is the minimum I would do, but for peace of mind I do around 5000kms and filters at 10000kms. Open a filter up that has done 20k, 10k and 5k and see the difference very clearly.
It also depends what oil you use, mineral, semi synthetic, full synthetic, race synthetic. I use Penrite HPR-15 Diesel.
It mainly comes down to personal preference.

When I got my TD5 it was obvious that the previous owner was only doing the recommended servicing as per the log book using Castrol I think. When I did some work on the engine after owning it for about 18 months I did notice a lot of sludge build up in places. Changed to Penrite HPR-15 and over the next 12 months this cleaned the engine. I noticed sludge coming out in oil changes. I did an inspection at around 12 months and the sludge had completely gone. A few years later we pulled the engine out for clutch and minor engine work and when stripping down were very impressed with how clean and goo condition the internals actually were.

Originally Posted by skc

I don't agree. Testing your oil is cheap protection; unless it has had the appropriate amount of use, changing it is an absolute waste of time, as if you have a problem, you are not addressing the root cause.

Suggest that next time you intend to change your oil that you take some and have it analysed first. Get them to check for fuel dilution / glycol / water / soot / neutralisation / Nitration / etc.

Oil and metallurgy technology has progressed a massive amount in the past 10 to 15 years, so don't waste it!

**CraigE** · 27th April 2015, 10:29 AM

And for Jeff.
Talk to your normal servicing agent or workshop. They are generally fine with you doing intermediate oil changes at home as this does not void warranty as long as you keep up the scheduled servicing. Whether you do 10k or 5k would be your personal preference, but IMHO 20k is too long. I saved my warranty in one vehicle when 1000kms over for servicing they stated I had voided my warranty on the engine, but was able to substantiate that I had been conducting intermediate servicing and oil changes.
There are now some cars saying 40,000km intervals and with BMW transmissions and others sealed for life, but what is life?

**PAT303** · 27th April 2015, 11:14 AM

I've been doing 10K changes with my Tdi for 17 years,when I did a valve set a few months back I could see the casting marks on the head,sludge,whats that?. Pat

**skc** · 27th April 2015, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by cafe latte

Put simply will there be no acids or particles in the oil at 20,00km? Answer of course there will be, lots.
Second question will there be less particles and acids at 10,000km?
Of course, probably half the amount or less.
So will the engine suffer less wear changing the oil more often?
Answer yes I refer to the first two questions..
Chris

Chris, it is clearly not about absolutes; it is about finding the point of asymptotic cost benefit. By your logic, we should change our oil every time we fill up with fuel; there will be less contamination and ergo less wear - must be better then, right?

**goingbush** · 27th April 2015, 02:23 PM

The service intervals on my 2013 Iveco Daily 4x4 are 40,000km

It has a 3.0 L CRD engine.

They do not want tho see the truck before that, no 1500km , no 5000km first service.
(Thats also 40.000km between king pin greasing- a job that needs doing every 5000km on this truck)

However for "Off Road" or "Heavy Duty" use they recommend halving the service intervals to 20,000 km

I wholeheartedly disagree with this. For the first 40.000km I was adhering to Iveco policy but I did do a first oil /filter change at 5000 km myself. Oil was black after 500km .

After some discussion with the dealers It has been suggested for my use 10,000km services are more appropriate.

Since then I have purchased the diagnostic interface that allows me to self service. and have been doing 10,000 km oil changes . Now even 5000km past my last service the oil is still translucent brown.

If you want to keep your vehicle long term, and not just for the life of the warranty I'd suggest 10,000km services.

cafe latte · 27th April 2015, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by skc

Chris, it is clearly not about absolutes; it is about finding the point of asymptotic cost benefit. By your logic, we should change our oil every time we fill up with fuel; there will be less contamination and ergo less wear - must be better then, right?

No I did not say that, but oil after 20,000km has had it totally especially in hot climates and the oil will be really bad if any off roading or towing had been done. The tipping point in my opinion is when the heat of the motor starts to break down the oil and the oil stops doing its job properly which is before 20,000km.
For the price of an oil change every 10,000km especially if you do it yourself why would anyone want dirty thin oil going round the engine their expensive pride and joy?
Chris

**bsperka** · 27th April 2015, 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by cafe latte

No I did not say that, but oil after 20,000km has had it totally especially in hot climates and the oil will be really bad if any off roading or towing had been done. The tipping point in my opinion is when the heat of the motor starts to break down the oil and the oil stops doing its job properly which is before 20,000km.
For the price of an oil change every 10,000km especially if you do it yourself why would anyone want dirty thin oil going round the engine their expensive pride and joy?
Chris

IIRC modern synthetic oils don't break down. Additives may get used up though.

**PAT303** · 27th April 2015, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by cafe latte

No I did not say that, but oil after 20,000km has had it totally especially in hot climates and the oil will be really bad if any off roading or towing had been done. The tipping point in my opinion is when the heat of the motor starts to break down the oil and the oil stops doing its job properly which is before 20,000km.
For the price of an oil change every 10,000km especially if you do it yourself why would anyone want dirty thin oil going round the engine their expensive pride and joy?
Chris

Oil doesn't wear out or break down unless it's been put under severe conditions,nothing you would do in your defender would meet this condition.You should not worry about the motor,instead be very pedantic about the gearbox/transfer oil,they are the ones that work the hardest. Pat

cafe latte · 27th April 2015, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by PAT303

Oil doesn't wear out or break down unless it's been put under severe conditions,nothing you would do in your defender would meet this condition.You should not worry about the motor,instead be very pedantic about the gearbox/transfer oil,they are the ones that work the hardest. Pat

Oil does actually change with time and use and in the engine it also get a lot of crud in it with use. Do what you want, but I will keep changing my oils regularly, well before 20K
Chris

schuy1 · 27th April 2015, 08:26 PM

Been doing 10000km changes on the defender since Igot it new in 1997. Always used Castrol (Tection Global) and now at 332000kms the oil stays clean on the dip until about 4500km. Now with the disco td5 (Castrol Edge 5-30 ) Im doing the 10000km changes only because I do a lot of gravel road.
The oil is still clean enough to see the dipstick marks. Use recommended oils and filters and you cant go wrong. Remember, the manufacturer has gone to a lot of testing to get the best settings,not just pulled them out of a hat!
Cheers Scott

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