Thread: Winning over the opposition..

Chris,

I firmly believe you and others are right that the real problems with late model Defenders are generally fairly simple matters to address either permanently, or to move to regular maintenance tasks (e.g. The options to sort the unlubricated drive flange splines range from just greasing periodically, or pulling out an oil seal to make them oil lubricated etc)

I went a step further with the discussions around 2pinion diffs - replaced my diff centers with Ashcroft ATBs front & rear

(To give perspective as to what I consider "simple" issues in the newer defenders - compare to all the problems VW have had with recent TSI/DSG engines/gearboxes)

But all that said, the relative simplicity of sorting known issues, and they being relatively simple things.... There is still a huge quality problem that causes concern: read on here tales of people who had diff replaced 3 times, or gearbox, or other bits... Replaced over and over - til they get a good one, and it lasts a few hundred thou km with no issues

Shouldn't happen. Period

I wanted a Defender, my first, and I wanted to buy new - because I read the tales of woe and figured I would put up with the inconvenience of the vehicle being in for replacement parts - at least happy warranty is honored with no questions asked. Until at last I will have a good one.

So far my warranty issues have been minor. (Aircon and an intercooler hose). And I have pre-empted any possibility of diff centre issues, and drive flanges also pre-emptively replaced. Along with a remap to close off EGR

But I reckon the brand suffers more than necessary with the bad run of issues some have had.

... And continuing, but in a separate post as it deserves a life of its own:

As well as the quality issues that should not exist (by that I mean the occasional recurrence of the repeated cycles of replacing the same part over and over until a "good one" is finally lucked on)

There is another very worrying aspect to owning a modern Defender:
I do regularly participate in trips into the Malaysian jungles. Sometimes it's 2-3 days drive in some pretty wild country. No chance of a flat top getting in to recover the vehicle.

The big worry here is the security and immobilizer system - it isn't inspiring me with its reliability. It is also not inspiring me with the way simple every day "accidents" could result in disaster. (Like losing or damaging the remote locking fob)

Sure, if it fails, or a user error intervenes, in a suburban or urban setting it's an inconvenience. If it happens 2days drive into the jungle interior... It's much more than a bother.

Mitigation actions are not working out for me:
- LR Malaysia have never satisfied repeated requests to give me my EKA code.
(Knowing the EKA code is a step towards solving many possible security systems failures - even small things like losing or damaging the remote locking fob)
- sick of waiting on LRM I invested money in a Nanocom Evo only to discover these are not compatible with the changes made to the "standard" 10AS security module. Thus it's been a total waste of money to date too.
- the Nanocom (should, had it worked as advertised) would have allowed me to turn off immobilizer functions before hitting the jungles
(Note: BBS have now recognized the problem, it was a surprise to them too, and are working on it but it's taking a LONG time and still nowhere near an estimated fix date)

So every time I go jungle now I have to remember to take the spare set of keys and put them somewhere separate to my vehicle, usually with another vehicle, where they are going to be safe and secure and hopefully functional - if something happens to the working set of keys.

Note: this only solves part of the problem ( loss or damage to the working set). It does nothing for me should the security unit having a spaz attack and immobilizer cannot be disabled. Thus still I worry on every trip ...

Originally Posted by tact

Chris,

I wanted a Defender, my first, and I wanted to buy new - because I read the tales of woe and figured I would put up with the inconvenience of the vehicle being in for replacement parts - at least happy warranty is honored with no questions asked. Until at last I will have a good one.

...And I have pre-empted any possibility of diff centre issues, and drive flanges also pre-emptively replaced. Along with a remap to close off EGR...

Thanks for your clear thinking tact. These do appear to be the three pre-emptive modifications to make the 2.2 puma Defender more reliable...

Has your warranty period expired or did you have your remap / EGR shutoff done before the end of your warranty? and if so how does it affect warranty / service?

Did you replace with input shaft and drive flanges from Ashcrofts?

Originally Posted by tact

...There is another very worrying aspect to owning a modern Defender:

I do regularly participate in trips into the Malaysian jungles. Sometimes it's 2-3 days drive in some pretty wild country. No chance of a flat top getting in to recover the vehicle. The big worry here is the security and immobilizer system - it isn't inspiring me with its reliability. It is also not inspiring me with the way simple every day "accidents" could result in disaster. (Like losing or damaging the remote locking fob)

Sure, if it fails, or a user error intervenes, in a suburban or urban setting it's an inconvenience. If it happens 2days drive into the jungle interior... It's much more than a bother. ...Thus still I worry on every trip ...

Agreed, this is symbolic of what I see as the biggest problem with owning a late model Land Rover, regardless of model. Land Rover customer service outside major cities is entirely centred around 'Land Rover Assist', firstly being available and secondly returning you to base (Land Rover's base, not yours) on a flat tray. Not only is this highly problematic for those of us who regularly use our vehicles thousands of km from a LR service agent, but also once the meagre 3 years warranty runs out! - no more LR assist. Obviously independent LR service specialists are awesome and usually provide much better service than LR service centres, but because of LR's lack of service and dealer support throughout the Australian continent, there is not enough critical mass of ownership for there to be enough independent LR specialists outside major centres either.

This problem plays out in the way you describe with potential immobiliser / key issues, but also in other ways, such as non-standard, hard to get oils being required, lack of parts network in general and the attitude that everyone will be based nearby a city based service agent. This 'customer service' model of back to LR base servicing and repairs severely limits the Land Rover owners ability to use the vehicle as it is intended and is clearly more about both cost saving and income generation rather than customer service.

This then inevitably becomes played out in company priorities becoming more and more urban centric, with the excuse of 'that is where the majority live'. To me this is anathema to the brand and the biggest reason why Land Rover will not regain market share in Australia, at least in the vast mining, agriculture and tourism industries that occupy 80% of the continent.

It is also why progressive designs of new LR vehicles is focussed on urban adventure escapism, rather than a simplicity of design with utmost consideration for field maintainability and ease of customer after sales service.

Originally Posted by MrLandy

Thanks for your clear thinking tact. These do appear to be the three pre-emptive modifications to make the 2.2 puma Defender more reliable...

Has your warranty period expired or did you have your remap / EGR shutoff done before the end of your warranty? and if so how does it affect warranty / service?

Did you replace with input shaft and drive flanges from Ashcrofts?

There is about 10mths of my 3yr warranty left. Took a gamble and replaced the drive flanges (HD units from Ashcrofts) and did the remap (BAS) just recently.

I replaced the diff centers (front & rear) with Ashcroft ATBs about 8mths ago.

So have taken a bit of risk on the warranty side. The original and untouched ECU can be swapped back in easily (it has been kept aside as a spare). Avoiding argument there. I reckon the diffs and flanges aren't going to cause me any grief in that department.

Thanks for mentioning the input shaft. Forgot about mentioning that one myself. Haven't pre-empted that one. If it does fail in the next 10mths under warranty - good. Either way, warranty or none, while its out a replacement shaft from Ashcroft will go in, along with Ashcroft ATB for centre diff to take away any fears of the TC box giving me grief in future.

So in summary
- Currently the security system is giving me cause to worry on every trip. Solution is getting my EKA and/or seeing my Nanocom Evo working properly.
- not really worrying me, but on a watch list, is the input shaft. If it fails then an Ashcroft replacement shaft goes in. (And an ATB centre diff with it)

Originally Posted by tact

There is about 10mths of my 3yr warranty left. Took a gamble and replaced the drive flanges (HD units from Ashcrofts) and did the remap (BAS) just recently.

I replaced the diff centers (front & rear) with Ashcroft ATBs about 8mths ago.

So have taken a bit of risk on the warranty side. The original and untouched ECU can be swapped back in easily (it has been kept aside as a spare). Avoiding argument there. I reckon the diffs and flanges aren't going to cause me any grief in that department.

Thanks for mentioning the input shaft. Forgot about mentioning that one myself. Haven't pre-empted that one. If it does fail in the next 10mths under warranty - good. Either way, warranty or none, while its out a replacement shaft from Ashcroft will go in, along with Ashcroft ATB for centre diff to take away any fears of the TC box giving me grief in future.

So in summary
- Currently the security system is giving me cause to worry on every trip. Solution is getting my EKA and/or seeing my Nanocom Evo working properly.
- not really worrying me, but on a watch list, is the input shaft. If it fails then an Ashcroft replacement shaft goes in. (And an ATB centre diff with it)

Cheers tact, sounds like a good strategy. Is it very difficult to swap ECU's in and out? How do you like the front and rear ATBs?

Originally Posted by MrLandy

Cheers tact, sounds like a good strategy. Is it very difficult to swap ECU's in and out? How do you like the front and rear ATBs?

Speaking only regards the only defender I have worked on - my own 2.2l TDCi:

- swapping ECUs is a dead easy task. 10min job once you've done it once before. Two small bolts to get the engine top sound deadening cover off. Two small nuts hold the ECU to its mount. 3 cabling plugs to pull.

- absolutely love the ATBs. Wrote up a couple of lengthy reports on them. Later when home will find and post links. Wouldn't say everyone should buy them. They are not a small expense and won't meet every need. But they are exactly what I wanted. In summary:
- they don't ever send all drive to any one wheel so no need to go down the path of replacing every transmission component with HD versions.
- they work for you delivering benefits BOTH on road and offroad
- got rid of a potential weak point (2 pinion diff) and got rid of a source of drive line backlash

Edit: here is the link I mentioned on ATBs. The first post gives a lot of background. On page two I added an update after 7mths and 10,000km living with ATBs
Fitted Ashcroft ATBs front and rear

Thanks I'll have a good read.
...and when you swap the original ECU back in for service, does it pick up the correct odometer reading and any other details needed no problem?