Thread: Puma electric window always powered on mod

Originally Posted by 90@

I know bugger all about electronics....
But having a bit of a read and a look at the wiring diagram on the website for these relays, I think that maybe the relays are not the correct ones for the job...???

The way I read the diagram is that the terminal 15 is used to trigger the delay function between on and off (disregarding the time limits which is set by the dials).

So for the delay to go ON, it uses a continuous power supply (on/off switch),
And for the delay OFF, it uses a momentary switch.

So to go between the delay on and the delay off... It would require another switch somewhere being powered by the supply (positive +) side of the battery system to go to this terminal 15 to turn on and off the delay system....
The switch being able to be used as both a momentary and an continuous switch?

Because with the standard relay being used it is being triggered by holding the window switch down, triggering and energising the load circuit.

Or have I got it completely ballsed up???

Electrical things hurt my head whenever I try and think about them...
Hopefully someone with more electrical knowledge can clear this up for me.

I hope what I've written above makes sense.

Regards,
Mike.

In these rigs the standard relay is activated by the ignition, not the use of the window switches.
Terminal 15 in the diagrame is the ignition feed to activate the relay(the coil is earthed at pin 31).
That in turn conects the battery live feed (pin 30) to the outiputs (pins87) that then conect to the window switches( and some have found- seat heaters and wipers)
The bypass just joins pins 30 to 87.

I see on the diagrame there is a 10 amp output limitation at pin 87.
I found I was blowing 10 amp fuses in the online fuse Holder I used in this modification, a 20 amp fuse is now fitted with no issues.
It may be worth running a amp meter across pins 30 and 87 to see what the draw is when the window(or both)is used.

Originally Posted by alien

In these rigs the standard relay is activated by the ignition, not the use of the window switches.
Terminal 15 in the diagrame is the ignition feed to activate the relay(the coil is earthed at pin 31).
That in turn conects the battery live feed (pin 30) to the outiputs (pins87) that then conect to the window switches( and some have found- seat heaters and wipers)
The bypass just joins pins 30 to 87.

I see on the diagrame there is a 10 amp output limitation at pin 87.
I found I was blowing 10 amp fuses in the online fuse Holder I used in this modification, a 20 amp fuse is now fitted with no issues.
It may be worth running a amp meter across pins 30 and 87 to see what the draw is when the window(or both)is used.

I would've thought that power was switched on to the relay when the ignition was switched on, but that the relay was not triggered to provide the heavier current flow until the window switch was depressed and therefore triggering the relay to actuate and the electromagnet to energize and provide the heavier current flow required for the window electric motor to work (of course polarity dependant on rotational requirement of the switching gear; ie, window up or down).

What I understand that you're saying is that the ignition when switched on energises the relay even when it is not required to be used.
For example, the complete opposite of a relay used for say, the headlights which is only energised when the headlights are switched on to allow for the greater current flow required.

Even allowing for the miniscule amount of power required to activate the elctromagnet and energise the relay, wouldn't it be better for the electrical system to have it switched off and only energised when the switch is pushed?

Anyways, I still don't think that you realise what I'm trying to get across, that being even if the standard relay is activated by the ignition (as you suggest), that with the ignition off, the new time delay relay won't work without a switchable power supply to supply power for the time delay function to work.... If the ignition is off and there is no power to the relay, and there being no capacitor to power the time delay relay, it's function will not work. You turn the time delay function on by providing power to pin 15 as a continuous supply...
To provide the necessary power to allow this relay system to work as a timer function, what I see you would have to do is run a bridging wire from pin 30 (+12V fused battery feed) to pin 15, you could also put a switch in this bridging wire to turn the time delay function off, although this is basically the same as using the ignition key switch with the standard relay...

Or do I have it completely ballsed up still.

Regards,
Mike.

I can see where your coming from for the normal use of a relay.
Having a relay to power up a circuit,like a headlamps or driving lights is how we see thier normal function.
How ever we are talking Land Rover so throw all previous assumptions out the window
What they have done is use a relay for various functions to reduce current flow through the ignition switch.
Manufacturers have been doing this for many years.
The headlamp circuit is another example of this on a Defender.
The headlamp relay supplies power to the switch which is why they turn off when the ignition is off(park lamps are on another circuit).
The headlamp switch still takes all the current and is a known weak point, a Traxside kit has sorted that for me using the witch to operate a relay under the bonnet

My understanding of the delay relay (for our intended use )is pin 15 is the switch supply.
When turned on the relay works as normal.
When turned off a internal circuit allows the relay to stay conected for a predetermined time according to the setting.
It will get power for this timer function from pin 30 as 15 is the trigger for starting the timer.
Hope that makes sense.

Originally Posted by Tombie

Have to wonder what else is being left powered up... there's a bit of potential for damage if unknown...

I just had quick look at part of the wiring diagrams.
Indeed the window relay supplies power to the windows, rear wipers, seat warmers.
I have not look to see what else, another ron job(latter on).


Pin 30(live supply) has a 60 amp supply via a Fusible link.
The relay then supplies the internal fuse box with...
10 amp Seat warmer LH.
10 amp Seat warmer RH.
20 amp Window LH.
20 amp Window RH.
10 amp Rear wiper/washer.




At this stage I'll plead the 5th,
I don't have seat warmers and never use the rear wipers so never knew about the other circuits.
As with all things on any forum, do your own research before doing any modifications.
And I walk away hopefully covering myself

Thanks Alien..
In the case of Mrs Tombies Vehicle that would result in a flat battery in short order during cooler weather

Originally Posted by alien

I just had quick look at part of the wiring diagrams.
Indeed the window relay supplies power to the windows, rear wipers, seat warmers.
I have not look to see what else, another ron job(latter on).


Pin 30(live supply) has a 60 amp supply via a Fusible link.
The relay then supplies the internal fuse box with...
10 amp Seat warmer LH.
10 amp Seat warmer RH.
20 amp Window LH.
20 amp Window RH.
10 amp Rear wiper/washer.

...so, the circuit can have at peak about 70 amps thru it, theoretically. Unlikely, but that's what the relay MIGHT encounter.

Also, I had a look at the factory relay you replace with a wire, or a timer relay - it's a 40A one in my car. So, I think the UK-sourced timer relay linked elsewhere in this thread, rated as a 10A unit, is not up to the job.

I've been looking for other timer relays, with higher ampage ratings, and have found a cheapie on aliexpress (not my favourite shopping venue) and a slightly more expensive Beuler one ($US 16 plus shipping) here: Beuler BU508TD 12 VDC Automotive 4-Pin SPST Time Delay Relay with adjustable timing

The aliexpress one looks to need one of the wires moved in the relay socket to properly align with the relay. For all of about $6 I've ordered one and we'll see what (or if) it turns up. Also, this cheapie, like the UK-sourced unit, is quite tall and I found I couldn't properly shut the fuse hatch with the taller relay inside - something will need to move.

The Beuler sourced one looks good but it's hard to find on the web, the seller I linked to gouges for shipping, and has not yet replied to my request asking what can be done to make that part of the cost more reasonable.

So, probably coming to the limit of my personal interest in what this will achieve for the amount of effort expended .

The summary for me for now is that the permanent-on wire looks to have flat battery risks, but the best cost to implement, and the relays are hard to find in the correct spec... I'll post if I get any updates, for those like me who are driven nuts by small problems . I should get a life, but I got a Defender instead...

I just fitted the new delay relay in place of my jumper set up, and no go. I downloaded the instructions from their web site and adjusted the dials inside the plugs but no use, so my jumper cable is back in place.
I also replaced the rear wiper relay with the 5 second delay unit they sell and Bugger me, always on, even with the key removed!, so I put the OEM rear wiper relay back in.
On the electronics front, a disappointing day!
Ken

So I was away with the family a while back and experienced some weird electrical issues. Was going around a corner and the fan and stereo momentarily cut out and came back on. About a hundred metres up the road and it cut out again this time with a burning smell. Couldn't trace it anywhere, can't find any fuses blown. Got it going again and continued on. Next time I tried to go some where I can't get it started. It will kick over fine but as soon as I release the key it cuts out. It will keep running if I hold the key just of the starter motor kicking but as soon as I release it it stops. Now the stereo and fan are gone completely. A bit of research later and suspected the ignition switching on the back of the barrel had fallen apart, apparently a common problem. Took it in to get fixed and mechanic says it hadn't fallen apart but the whole switch had been burnt out as if way too much current had gone through it. I think this bypass is at the top of my list for culprits. What do you think? Could this have led to the burnt out switch???