Thread: Defender 130 td5 engine cuts out

Originally Posted by MDAkinc

Thanks for your brilliant and detailed help, AK83.
I haven't got a Nanocom, but I see there is one on line for $271 plus postage from the UK. It's called iCar Soft LR V2.0. Would that be worth getting?

....

iCarSoft won't work on a TD5, don't waste $s(or thoughts) on one(unless you have any other OBDII capable vehicles you may want to diagnose).

I think the other option is a Hawkeye diagnostic thing. I've read some folks use them, but don't know anything about them myself.

If you've had injector seals done(as well as CPS) and Bruce Davis has a reputable following, it's unlikely then that they are the causes. Not impossible to take out of the equation, just very unlikely to be.

Another possible cause could be FPR(fuel pressure regulator), and you could do a cheaper rebuild option(strip and replace regulator) or you could just get an entire assembly to replace. But this is just guesswork.

So is your issue persistent? .. in that it will only run for about 15mins every time .. or just that on some drives it will do this, but then other times it runs ok?

When we were troubleshooting the brothers D2, it was a 'always on' issue .. in that the car would only drive for about 10-15mins or so .. ie. pretty much unusable.

I haven't checked the temp of the fuel filter myself, but when we replaced the fuel pump(incorrect guess at the injector seal issue), I do remember that the half a tank of diesel was very warm. Note that the fuel going to the injectors does funnel it's way through the actual head(in via the FPR, out from the front via a return pipe) .. and it's under pressure by both the fuel pump, and each injector .. AND it also gets some heat transfer from the coolant too via the fuel cooler too.
So it would be expected that the fuel filter should be warm(just that I've never thought to check it).

One other question: if you drive for a shorter duration, that is switch it off before it dies, does it then run for about 15 mins again, or will it only drive for a short period?

When I finally gave in and began taking it to a LR expert to solve the mystery, I was driving at a reduced speed to normal(eg. instead of 80 in a 80 zone, I was just pootling at 60), then the TD5 started to die a bit more slowly than it usually did.
Spur of the moment choice, I vigorously pumped the accelerator as it was dying. In the old days I had a old beetle that had a vapour locking fuel pump, and to keep it going while it died, I did this, and it kept going.
It was more of a reaction, then a premeditated thought.
Anyhow , it kind of came good, just with much reduced power at the time and billowing out smoke(from the exhaust). but it kept going. I stopped it due to the smoke level(totally inconsiderate).
So I turned around and headed back home. Later that night, I tried the same thing, but it was hit and miss if it worked. I tried at many speeds trying to replicate the exact situation, but nothing. it helped sometimes, but other times not.

The, same day, I got back onto the forum and noted a few replies, re the injector seals.

I can't recall what the fuel cap was like on my D2s but if the cap has a vacuum relief valve then try leaving the cap loose. I had a BMW Isetta when a teenager that would stop after different running times depending on how much fuel was in the tank that was caused by a blocked breather valve in the fuel cap.

Thanks very much to ADK83 for your long thughtful post. Sorry I haven't reacted sooner. I've had to put the problem on hold until the new year, but briefly now: Since it developed suddenly a few weeks ago, it has been an 'always on' problem, as you describe. Every time I use the car, or try to, it will drive normally for 15 minutes and then quit. As you put it, it is pretty much unusable.

I will think about the fuel pressure regulator. I will also look at fuel cap breather. I must say, the car's behaviour matches inability to breathe, although I'm surprised that that would cause such instant failure each time.

Thanks for warning me off the iCarSoft analyser. I'm planning a trip from Sydney to the Kimberley starting in May, so given the age of the vehicle I think it might be a good idea to have an analyser of some sort.

I've got a wider question for the forum: This vehicle (a single cab ute) has been enormously versatile and useful. At home on the small farm, it has a tipping ute body. For travelling, we take that off the chassis and put a camper van body on, with which we have travelled over most of Asia and North America with no problems. The car is 20 years old and has 232,000 kms on it. I'm willing to spend money on a major re-fit to return it to near-new reliability, since I can't get a new one. What do people think?

Happy New Year. I'll be back then.
Kinc

OK. Nanocom. These are great. As I said previously I sold mine for reasons I won't go into. I regretted it so much that I bought another one last year, and my D2 is currently not being driven. You are free to start a Group Buy, although I'm not sure if the demand is still there, but suck it and see, I guess. If you choose to get one, I would recommend sooner rather than later, as the interface is "interesting", so better to familiarize your self with it before you find you need it.

230,000 for a 20 year old TD5? It's barely run in. I can't see why it would need a whole lot of work. I would have a couple of suggestions though. TD5s of that vintage had a couple of quirks, well the Disco ones did and I imagine the Defender ones came down the same line. I would suggest checking with those with more accurate knowledge than mine if your engine is one that had the plastic dowells to locate the cylinder head. If it did you have either had the head gasket replaced, or you are about to. If it was one of the later ones then don't worry. Same thing applies to the oil pump bolt. Some were built without this being fitted with no thread lock, and that is serious. Once again, your engine may not fall into this category but it's a must to at least check. I'm fairly sure folk like discorevy would be able to tell you based on its production year. I think it was a narrow window, but its a 'fail to proceed' item if ever there was one. It's no biggie to do a preventative fix.

For a trip like that I would suggest at the least a low coolant/high temp alarm, although you could rig your new Nanocom to display temps. Obviously you'll be carrying spares of stuff

Just a couple of thoughts. I'm sure folk will have others.

Originally Posted by MDAkinc

Thanks very much to ADK83 for your long thughtful post. Sorry I haven't reacted sooner. I've had to put the problem on hold until the new year, but briefly now: Since it developed suddenly a few weeks ago, it has been an 'always on' problem, as you describe. Every time I use the car, or try to, it will drive normally for 15 minutes and then quit. As you put it, it is pretty much unusable.

I will think about the fuel pressure regulator. I will also look at fuel cap breather. I must say, the car's behaviour matches inability to breathe, although I'm surprised that that would cause such instant failure each time.

Thanks for warning me off the iCarSoft analyser. I'm planning a trip from Sydney to the Kimberley starting in May, so given the age of the vehicle I think it might be a good idea to have an analyser of some sort.

I've got a wider question for the forum: This vehicle (a single cab ute) has been enormously versatile and useful. At home on the small farm, it has a tipping ute body. For travelling, we take that off the chassis and put a camper van body on, with which we have travelled over most of Asia and North America with no problems. The car is 20 years old and has 232,000 kms on it. I'm willing to spend money on a major re-fit to return it to near-new reliability, since I can't get a new one. What do people think?

Happy New Year. I'll be back then.
Kinc

There's a couple of ways to check Crank Sensor, which, as Tins and Daz wrote, sounds like a possible problem.

1: Check engine revs while cranking with a TD5 compatible reader after it cuts out, but as you don't have, or can access one ... yet, then

2: When it stops, have a bottle of water ready, lift the bonnet and pour the water onto the Crank Sensor. They normally play up when they get warm if faulty and this will cool it down, usually enough to start it again, obviously if it starts up it's the sensor.
Also check the wiring to the sensor hasn't been stretched or sandwiched between box and engine if the clutch has been recently changed.

If the old fuel pump that was removed was blackened with carbon that will mean injector seals.

It's always a possibility the new injector washers were fitted without the surfaces being cleaned properly.
Does it take a lot of cranking to start after sitting for a while?

Obviously as others have stated, check for oil ingress to wiring, ECU , harness


The plastic dowel's I've seen in Every year up to and including 2004 models and haven't had to remove a head on anything TD5 after that year. (Defenders only after 04).. Daz?

Finally, as Tins alluded to, Those K's on a TD5 are very low, keep the fluids and filters changed regularly and you can expect a very long service life out of it.
I do 2 that have over 700 000 k's on original engines with no reason to overhaul yet. ( now I've done it )

It's safe to say that IF you were to find something modern to replace it with, then the new one will be far less reliable and long lived due to Emission regs and the levels of complexity necessary for modern vehicles, use of plastics subjected to heat cycles etc... In other words, Keep it.

Originally Posted by discorevy

Also check the wiring to the sensor hasn't been stretched or sandwiched between box and engine if the clutch has been recently changed.

That happens. Ask me how I know. But in my case, the thing wouldn't start because the sensor was inside the bellhousing.... that's how I know that a Jag one fits...

I'm back after the Christmas and NY holiday. Thanks to everyone who has offered suggestions for the problem with my 2002 td5 defender cutting out. I'm afraid the problem has got worse. After sitting for a week or so, the thing now won't start at all, let alone continue running. My son John and I have made notes of possible sources of the problem. I am now about to type up these notes and will post them in the next couple of days for your consideration.
MDAKinc

2 January 2023
MDAkinc

2002 Land-Rover Defender td5 130 single cab ute cuts out and now won’t start at all.

SYMPTOMS

Engine Died. Two weeks ago now the LR suddenly died on the road after about 8 ks. Up until then it had been running well and normally. I tried starting it several times in the next half hour. Twice it started but packed up again after only a hundred metres. But at the end of the half hour it returned to normal and I was able to drive home, near which it quit again.This pattern was repeated several times since the original.

I’ve got an appointment with Bruce Davis, the LR expert in South Windsor, on 30 Jan, but I hope to get it fixed before then, especially as rego is coming due.

Engine won’t start. The LR sat unused for about a week. A few days ago when I tried it, it wouldn’t start at all.

Smoke from exhaust. It cranked fine, and some smoke appeared from the exhaust pipe. As I understand it, no fuel can enter the combustion chambers without an electrical signal. If so, then if the smoke is diesel smoke, the injectors must be receiving electrical signals. If not, might the smoke be coolant or sump oil? The oil level is very slightly high, but that could be that I slightly over-filled it at the last oil change. The coolant level is OK.

Fuel Gauge. The fuel gauge was acting unreliably before this trouble. I replaced the connector at the top of the fuel tank and the gauge now reads reliably.

Fuel pump. Early in this saga I replaced the fuel pump with a new genuine one. This has made no difference to the problem.

Volt Meter. The volt meter pins itself on the high side of the gauge when it is switched to either of the two batteries. The original one was giving those same problems before I put in a new gauge about 4 months ago and now the new one is doing the same thing.

Fuel Tank Breathers. A single system of pipes vents the three fuel tanks to two outlets. One of these outlets was blocked but clearing it made no difference.

Radiator. The cooling system has been functioning normally. However, a year or more ago I had two or three isolated issues where the temperature gauge suddenly shot up on a long hill, causing the engine to lose power dramatically but temporarily. I blew out the radiator with compressed air and was going to get the radiator pressure tested, but haven’t done so.

In-Line Air Bleeders. Since the start of the current troubles, I have replaced the two in-line air bleeders in the rear outer (white nylon insert) and forward inner (rubber duck’s bill) fuel lines from the fuel filter. This has made no difference. The mount for the fuel filter looks to be in sound condition.

Fuel Air Bleed Sequence. The fuel bleed sequence (floor the accelerator 5 times and then wait for check engine to go out) doesn’t cure the problem but it also doesn’t seem to get rid of all the air.

Reversing Light. The reversing light actuated by the gear lever doesn’t work since the clutch was replaced in Victor Harbour last March.

Oil in Wiring Loom. At the suggestion of the forum, I took the red plug off at the computer. There was a tiny amount of oil in it. I cleaned the connection with contact cleaner.

Crank Angle Sensor. Bruce Davis put in a new good quality one when he did the injector seals last July.


ACTIONS PLANNED BEFORE TAKING IT TO Bruce Davis

Analyser. I will get our local mechanic to test the car with his analyser, which is not specifically for Land-Rovers. I will also consider buying the analyser suggested by AK83 on the forum.

Fuel Pressure. I have ordered a fuel pressure test kit. Where should I test it? I assume at the outlet of the fuel pressure regulator and at the point where the fuel leaves the engine for the return to the filter. It is supposed to be 4 bars.

Fuel Temperature. I will test the fuel temperature. Any advice about how to do this? Where is the fuel temperature sensor?

Injector Seals. These have been mentioned on the forum as possible culprits. These were changed by Bruce Davis last July at considerable cost. Is it worth changing them again? I now see online that changing them is simple. Will the engine run if, say, one injector has not been done up properly?

Injector Wiring Loom. This is mentioned several times on the forum as worth doing. It is cheap to buy, only about $100, and is apparently easy to do. It is also something that should be done regularly. I plan to replace it within the next week.

Cooling System Pressure Test. I’ll get our local mechanic to do that, unless the forum can tell me how to do it.


ANY ADVICE from the Forum about all this will be much appreciated.

Kinc