Reply With QuoteGet an ISUZU County for Say 10K spend 10K and you will have some thing worth leaving to your Kids
Master
Might as well as add to this thread based on my viewpoint as a Discovery II V8 auto owner.
Today I got a chance to test drive a brand spanking new 2009 Defender 110. It had only 150 kms on the odometer when the keys were handed to me. With the 1/2 hour drive around the inner city area, I was able to make the following observations.
Firstly, the not so good bits:
1. Build quality very consistent with previous years Defenders, i.e. you can see daylight at the bottom corner of the front doors. Looking at the side mirrors, it looks like the 2nd row doors were not properly shut. But when I got out to slam the rear doors shut, they were already tightly shut!
2. Internal rear vision mirror vibrates and it's hard to see the traffic behind you.
3. Airconditioning vents only from the center - there are no side vents near the doors. I use the vents to dry my sweaty palms and now I have to crossover my right hand to the other vent....A/C is noisy even with the minimum fan speed but there a lot of other noises anyway....
4. Synchros are slow so a quick shift from 2nd to 3rd can create a slight feeling of tear crunch through the gear shift.I thought that the new 6 speed gearbox won't have the problems like the 5 speeders in the TD5, but I guess not.
5. Still noisy even though transmission tunnel is quieter than TD5 (due to use of steel instead of aluminium). A stone flicked up from a tyre onto the wheel arch and scared the crap out of me because I thought a rear window had broken, the clunk was so loud!
6. High general road noise levels make driving at 80 km/hr seem fast.I think on a long drive, this can cause accelerated driver fatigue. Hand me those Land Rover ear plugs please!
7. Clutch pedal slightly heavy but at least clutch action is progressive and easy to modulate. At least I'll get better calf muscles one day.
8. Front driveshaft now has a Double Cardan joint on the front driveshaft like Disco II. Bad bad bad. Just ask any well informed Discovery II long term owner why.
9. Hard to modulate the temperature control with the a/c temperature dial - turn it warm then it gets hot, turn it back to where it was, but it doesn't go back to the cool temperature it was at.... Very vague. Will drive any one batty if you are very particular about achieving a specific temperature.
10. If engine stalls, it's not possible to restart the engine just by turning the key from it's "ON" position to "crank" position - you need to turn it completely off first before it will allow you to crank the engine. So not so nice if you stall the engine right in the middle of the intersection and just try turning the key to "crank" to get engine restarted quickly. A stalled hill start is another scenario where one needs to restart the engine quickly (unless you don't mind unassisted brakes)
Then the good parts:
1. Airconditioning is nice and cold and not trying to freeze my kneecaps, like the TD5 ones do! Yay! :-)
2. There is a large tachometer - Yay! Even though my ears will tell me what revs the engine is doing, it's nice to have accurate information for smooth gear shifting purposes.
3. 2nd gear starts on the 6 speed gearbox are effortless. 1st gear handy for towing starts.
4. PUMA diesel is noticeably more refined than TD5, at idle, at full load, at all times, really. I reckon this motor will also be more reliable in the long term as there's no oil-in-loom issues to worry about, or loose oil pump bolt.
5. Ride quality superb for a vehicle with this much load carrying capacity. Probably even smoother with a load in the back.
6. Center cubby box is now fully lined so doesn't look like a plain timber box as in the TD5. Just feels more "finished" than before.
7. Excellent anti shunt control means blipping the throttle produces no driveline shunt. Good for drivers with lousy smooth driving technique, aka jerky right foot.
8. Impressive, almost ridiculously slow speed in 1st gear, low range (coming from an auto driver). Would make descents in steep conditions a breeze. Love it!!
9. Availability of 3rd row seats (not sure if this was previously available in the TD5). This can be very useful.
10. ECU is mounted on firewall, high up in engine bay. Much better than under the driver's seat in the TD5 where it can be flooded.
11. Wheel arch flares are now not colour coded - which is a good thing for me, although this may be one of those features that keep coming and going on Defenders. Some models in the past have painted flares, some do not. Don't know why there's this inconsistency.
12. Turbo lag, if present, is negligible. The vehicle will lug around in 4th gear at engine idle speeds and come up to normal cruising speed without complaining too much.
Summary:
Would I buy one? Probably not - I'd save my pennies for the D3. Sorry, Deefer fans!I think I'm too used to having more comfort and refinement.
Cheers,
Lawrance
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Get an ISUZU County for Say 10K spend 10K and you will have some thing worth leaving to your Kids
OldBushie
1. Build quality very consistent with previous years Defenders, i.e. you can see daylight at the bottom corner of the front doors. Looking at the side mirrors, it looks like the 2nd row doors were not properly shut. But when I got out to slam the rear doors shut, they were already tightly shut!
That will be a door alignment issue, mine are fine
3. Airconditioning vents only from the center - there are no side vents near the doors. I use the vents to dry my sweaty palms and now I have to crossover my right hand to the other vent....
Good and bad here. Good is that there is a very low air flow movement with only A/C switched on and no main fan on. Great in a hot climate! There are also now side vents to the front windows, they work well
5. Still noisy even though transmission tunnel is quieter than TD5 (due to use of steel instead of aluminium). A stone flicked up from a tyre onto the wheel arch and scared the crap out of me because I thought a rear window had broken, the clunk was so loud!
I love watching people's reaction to stones hitting the rear guards. It sure gives you a fright if you don't know about it!
6. High general road noise levels make driving at 80 km/hr seem fast.
I don't believe it is any noisier than a D1 Tdi
8. Front driveshaft now has a Double Cardan joint on the front driveshaft like Disco II. Bad bad bad. Just ask any well informed Discovery II long term owner why.
If they do then this is something after mid 2008, because mine doesn't
9. Hard to modulate the temperature control with the a/c temperature dial - turn it warm then it gets hot, turn it back to where it was, but it doesn't go back to the cool temperature it was at.... Very vague. Will drive any one batty if you are very particular about achieving a specific temperature.
Three things I miss from the D2: Climate Control, Variable intermittent wipers and cruise control
11. Wheel arch flares are now not colour coded - which is a good thing for me, although this may be one of those features that keep coming and going on Defenders. Some models in the past have painted flares, some do not. Don't know why there's this inconsistency.
Bet you drove a White one, the other colours all have colour coded flares
Lawrance, you also need to play with the anti-stall, traction control and low-range 1. Next add 1.5 tonne of trailer behind it off-road and crawl through a washout using full articulation. Fantastic!
MY15 Discovery 4 SE SDV6
Past: 97 D1 Tdi, 03 D2a Td5, 08 Kimberley Kamper, 08 Defender 110 TDCi, 99 Defender 110 300Tdi[/SIZE]
Master
Hi Derek,
Yes, it was a white one. So I guess that explains why the flares are not coloured, yet other non-white ones that I've seen are body coloured. Thanks for clarifying this point.
I'll have to go and have a look at the front propshaft on that model that I drove. I may have been mistaken re the DC joint on the front propshaft. Which would be a good thing since it is a sore point with the Discovery II.
Will report back when I get a chance to consult the LR oracle that I know!
Lawrance
Fossicker
Thank you all for your input.
I’d be interested to learn if the defender Lawrence drove had a double Cardan joint (having just done a search of the forum you could even say that I’m very interested.)
A few people have suggested the 300, 200tdi’s and the Isuzu. To be 100% honest with you, if I were in this position 5 – 7 years ago, wouldn’t even hesitate – they would get my vote also. I guess I have reservations about the overall wear on all components and rust regarding the older fenders. No doubt I’m dismissing some that may even outlast my eventual purchase, but without intimately knowing the service history and the higher mileage, I feel it is more like a lottery.
There are plenty of threads on this site about 300, 200 and Isuzu v TD5, Puma. When I started looking at defenders I considered older models also, however at the end of the day I’m no mechanic so if anything goes really pear shaped, I wont be the one working on it so the simpler motor does me little favours (except maybe cost - although one needs to consider availability of parts for older examples in years to come – potentially at least). The older examples will work better for others, but not for me I believe.
ECU engines are here to stay (whatever make or model, 4WD, Wagon, Hatch back etc) and for me, with my limited mechanical experience, I may as well benefit from the improved performance engines with ECU offer. I also don’t believe it unreasonable to expect that with proper maintenance, I should receive largely trouble free 7 years / 150,000k service from a new Puma or 04-06 TD5...........
Am I being too optimistic????
OldBushie
No I think you have a fairly balanced view. Some wit will probably jump in about 7 years of trouble free motoring, but to date with 4 Rovers I have had very little issues. The only fault I had with my Td5 D2 was when the DC failed without notice at 125kph south of Alice - OK it wasn't a minor fault either
MY15 Discovery 4 SE SDV6
Past: 97 D1 Tdi, 03 D2a Td5, 08 Kimberley Kamper, 08 Defender 110 TDCi, 99 Defender 110 300Tdi[/SIZE]
Master
Hi Penft,
I've got my wires crossed - I thought I saw what looked like a DC but I was wrong - the Defender does not have a double cardan joint on the front propshaft, so it will not have any of the DC issues that Discovery II owners face. The negative about this is that a suspension lift of 2" could cause driveline vibrations to be introduced.
If I had to choose between a Puma motor vs a TD5, I'd pick Puma. Not because it is the "latest", therefore greatest, but because the TD5 will eventually suffer from the engine oil in wiring loom problem. I guess it isn't really that expensive to get it replaced, but I do like the driving characteristics of the Puma motor heaps better. The TD5 will easily stall when off boost, not to mention the poor location of the ECU, if you are one for deep river crossings.
Cheers,
Lawrance
Swaggie
SubscriberHi Tyler,
Good first up question & welcome to the forum.
I'd lean towards the puma myself. It is a whole generation newer in terms of comforts and civilisation inside the cabin than a TD5. Quieter at 110Km/h, probably mainly due to the higher 6th gear. One thing I miss (which is pretty silly) is the opening vents at the front, as you can't just get fresh air coming in any more, you have to use the fan.
We have a TD5 130 and a Puma 110, and the missus prefers the Puma, due to it being more civilised and more like a normal car than the 130.
You could get a new Puma, bung on a bullbar and snorkel, and that would be about all the mods you'd require for a fantastic touring vehicle. No need to muck with the suspension or tyres or locking diffs. It goes brilliantly straight from the factory. You'd have 3 years warranty too.
That's my thoughts anyway - good luck. Nice dilemma to have really
Cheers
David
Tyler,
You haven't said what your current vehicle is ? I think you have to drive a defender to really know whether you will be able to live with it day to day, and the Puma one is definitely quieter and more refined.
I changed from a 200 Tdi Disco to the puma defender and the 15 year old disco was quieter.
Regards
John D - Defender 110 2.4
Master
SubscriberI was perfectly happy with the TD5 Defender until I bought the PUMA. The difference in drivability between the two is great.
BUT - The TD5 is better off road - it has better articulation out of the box. The sway bars on the PUMA make it go round corners on rails, but don't help articulation, you also apparently cannot legally remove them.
In my experience some new defenders take a bit of sorting out before they are done, ie when you first get them they tend to need dealer intervention on various things if the first year or so. After that they tend to settle down. So if you get a "new" PUMA then you should bank on having to get things sorted out in the first year or so. (My PUMA has needed 3 diffs, and a complete body strip and rebuild). Whereas a "sorted" TD5 is likely to remain so for quite a while. (My TD5 also required 3 diffs, 2 gearbox rebuilds and a 2 week strip and rebuild of the body work in the first year or so, but is now chugging past 170,000ks)
So if you are not going to buy a PUMA then don't drive one. If you want a sorted vehicle then get a TD5 from a fussy owner.
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