Thread: Vibration 2008 Defender 130

Hi ,

am interested in the out come of this matter as I have the same vehicle 08 130. It also has a vibration under load from around 80 to 100. landrover claim that 110 S dont have a vibration and 130 S do!!

I have replaced rims and tyres to no avail. Also have had transfer case replaced still the same, uni joints and propshaft have been checked, I personally feel it is related to tailshaft but have all but given up persuing the matter. I try to avoid driving under load through those speeds in 6th gear use 5 instead then put it in 6 after 100kmh, will watch this forum for more info

cheers

Originally Posted by WD 130

Hi ,

am interested in the out come of this matter as I have the same vehicle 08 130. It also has a vibration under load from around 80 to 100. landrover claim that 110 S dont have a vibration and 130 S do!!

I have replaced rims and tyres to no avail. Also have had transfer case replaced still the same, uni joints and propshaft have been checked, I personally feel it is related to tailshaft but have all but given up persuing the matter. I try to avoid driving under load through those speeds in 6th gear use 5 instead then put it in 6 after 100kmh, will watch this forum for more info

cheers

I think I will need to consult a drivetrain expert.In my 130 the gearbox and transfer case have been swapped in and out with others. Wheels and tyres have been swapped. Tailshaft and rear diff replaced. Tested with hand brake drum removed.Axle shafts checked. Vibes disappear if rear tailshaft removed and driven on front only. Dealer used shims to change angle of rear axle and thought vibration reduced. Land Rover refuses to investigate further saying accessories must be the cause even though vibration was there b4 accessories fitted. Surpisingly I have spoken with some other 2008 owners who say they do not have the problem. Dealer found the same fault in 2 vehicles not even sold at that time and consider the fault to be a design/engineering problem characteristic of this model. My 1996 130 did not vibrate.

Originally Posted by lrbob

I think I will need to consult a drivetrain expert.In my 130 the gearbox and transfer case have been swapped in and out with others. Wheels and tyres have been swapped. Tailshaft and rear diff replaced. Tested with hand brake drum removed.Axle shafts checked. Vibes disappear if rear tailshaft removed and driven on front only. Dealer used shims to change angle of rear axle and thought vibration reduced. Land Rover refuses to investigate further saying accessories must be the cause even though vibration was there b4 accessories fitted. Surpisingly I have spoken with some other 2008 owners who say they do not have the problem. Dealer found the same fault in 2 vehicles not even sold at that time and consider the fault to be a design/engineering problem characteristic of this model. My 1996 130 did not vibrate.

IMHO if you want to fix the vibration you will need to get an appropriate rear driveshaft made - not just a replication of what you have now, but one with decent universal joints and using the appropriate drive tube for the driveshaft length.

I don't know about the 130, but Land Rover changed to smaller universal joints in the 110 and Range Rover at about 1986 - they went from 1310 series down to 1300 series.

Although the earlier 1310 size is ok, the ISO yokes/flanges that Land Rover used, restrict the allowable uni-joint angle compared to what is used in other vehicles with this size uni-joint. The smaller yokes again used with the 1300 series uni- joint restrict the allowable angle still further. The small uni-joint yoke and allowable operating angle is arguably the main reason why Land Rovers experience vibration problems even when the suspension is only lifted a small amount, resulting in an increase of operating angle.

BTW, the 1310 and 1300 series use the same bearings but the cross piece is smaller on the 1300. Because the bearings are closer together, the same torque creates higher loads on the bearings and the allowable torque is less.

Although your suspension has not been lifted and the uni-joint angles with the longer driveshaft of a 130 will be less than for a 110, the problem is obviously with your driveshaft. The uni-joints are probably ok for the operating angles, but the Land Rover logic of reducing drive train strength from marginal to poor (not only in the driveshaft) leads me to suspect they may have skimped on the drive tube properties for the 130 length.

As the driveshaft rotates, uni-joints operating at an angle force the shaft to speed up and slow down 2 times during each revolution. This causes a torsional vibration, and the frequency of vibration increases with rotational speed (angular velocity).

There will be other vibrations due to out of balance (they are rarely balanced perfectly, torsional vibrations from the engine, differential and wheels. The out of balance vibration is worse if there in any run-out at the uni-joint flanges.

The numerous small and larger vibrations combine in a complex way, some cancelling and others synchronising to produce more severe vibration, with changes of speed.

Now the driveshaft will also have a natural frequency (actually they have more than one natural modes of vibration) that depends on it's length and how stiff it is - stiffness is how much it deflects and is greatly influenced by the properties of the drive tube.

As the frequency of vibration (from the uni-joints or out of balance, etc.) gets close to the natural frequency of the driveshaft, the driveshaft will begin to resonate.

Rotating shafts also have another characteristic known as critical speed or whirling. It is very difficult to get a vehicle driveshaft perfectly balanced. With out of balance, the centre of mass is slightly offset from the axis of rotation. As the rotational speed reaches the critical speed, the shaft changes from rotating about the normal axis of rotation and begins rotating about the centre of mass. When whirling happens the rest of the vehicle starts to vibrate about the driveshaft - you can see something like this with clothes washing machines during spin-dry cycles as the machine shakes violently. The critical speed is a function of shaft length. It is important for the driveshaft to not operate near its critical speed.

1310 series uni-joints should be ok for your driveshaft, but unfortunately you are restricted to the narrow angle yokes of pre 1986 rovers, unless you use flange adaptors.

The other solution is to use a 1310 constant velocity, double cardan joint at the transfer case end. The constant velocity of the driveshaft will reduce vibration, as long as the diff pinion angle is corrected so the angle of the uni-joint at the diff is not great - must be less than 3*, preferably better than 2*. You will need a flange adapter for the 1310 CV.

I am interested to know if the driveshaft on my 95 130Tdi is the same joints and shaft as on the new puma 130 ? length diametre weight etc? would anyone know? I could take mine off and measure it etc to compare

Originally Posted by philco

I am interested to know if the driveshaft on my 95 130Tdi is the same joints and shaft as on the new puma 130 ? length diametre weight etc? would anyone know? I could take mine off and measure it etc to compare

Different length due to yours having a real rear differential Philco They fitted a P38a Bang-go rear diff after 2002....

Same uni joints etc, BUT the front shafts in all 2001/2 onwards 110 and 130 seem to have upgraded wider yokes and bigger uni joint cross... Why not do the rear aswell??

JC

I'm going to throw another spanner in the works here,

Try measuring the distance between the upper Aframe points on the crossmember above the rear diff and the transmission park brake drum face, and compare this measurement to a vehicle that ISN'T vibrating.

I hypothesise that some of the chassis jigging/ construction is a bit approimate. If this distance is significantly different, the nose angle of the rear differential will be out of normal parameters.

Also, check the wheelbase left and right, and compare the distnce between the front radius rod and rear trailing arm bracketry between yours and a vibration free example. This will also upset the nose angle if out by enough.

I have come across quite a few 110's that developed front shaft vibes after a minor suspension lift in Td5 models, whereas Tdi ones never seem as touchy. Supposedly the same chassis dimensions etc but I think that LR have changed a few dimensions to achieve a caster change, this then effectively reduces the amount by which you can lif the suspension without upsetting shaft angles etc. I haven't been able to proove this though, it is just an observation at present based on what I have seen.

John has some pretty valid points above about shaft whipping, shaft diameter has remained unchanged with the 130 since day 1, and now they put out about 50% more torque thn the humble 300Tdi so I wouldn;t be suprised if this is a contributing factor aswell.

JC

never owned a quiet 130 or one that aint not leaked some kinda fluid .leakeaked seapped water and took in dust ? isnt that why we own landys

Originally Posted by justinc

Different length due to yours having a real rear differential Philco They fitted a P38a Bang-go rear diff after 2002....

Same uni joints etc, BUT the front shafts in all 2001/2 onwards 110 and 130 seem to have upgraded wider yokes and bigger uni joint cross... Why not do the rear aswell??

JC

I'm interested in a comparison of driveshaft length and drive tube diameter.

Based on a 100" wheelbase disco/rangie, I would expect the 130 (127" wheelbase) to have a driveshaft about 58" long.

From information on Tom Wood's web site, this length should have a tube about 3" diameter - see pic below, pasted from his information. BTW the disco/rangie tube dia is 2", which is suitable for its length - my concern is that the 130 may still have 2" tubes.

(Edit:
This diameter is based on a tailshaft speed of 3000 rpm, so could be smaller if rpm is lower.
end edit)

I am planning to have Tom Woods make new driveshafts for my bushie - his prices, given the good exchange rate and shipping to Australia, work out well for a quality product.