Thread: hydrogen fuel

If you are going to use the engine that the Hydrogen is going to be used in and you have a gain then isn't this called perpetual motion?

If you get a tank of Hydrogen made elsewhere then fair enough.
Making comparisons to gas injected system is a furphy since the engine using the gas is not producing the power to make it.

Seems common sense to me, or am I missing something? Perhaps snake oil is used as an additive?


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Thanx Garry, for your opinion.
Yes, I've searched and as I stated earlier
I have found as much either way.

Ben's answer at least has a bit more substance.....
Some time ago I read that the percentages of hydrogen required compared to LPG in the diesel scenario were different due to the speed and temperature of combustion of hydrogen.

I'm not planning to build a system at this stage, I am however interested and remain open minded until I see enough science to sway me either way. Was hoping that Garry may have helped in this regard since such a strong opinion must have some basis. (I thought)

Miky, you are missing something ... read the thread

Technically diesel gas using hydrogen instead of LPG works. been there tried it using bottled hydrogen for all intents and purposes its the same as LPG fumigation BUT the gas is a bucket load dearer.

getting the engine thats burning the hydrogen to improve the power out of the already injected fuel to provide the power to split water to make the hydrogen... no, thats the stumbling block.

even with a paltry flow rate of 1l/m the best reliable electrolyser that Ive seen thats portable enough to hit that flow rate just makes it unfeasable as youd burn more fuel carrying it around and then you have the power loss from the crank trying to power the thing up.

most of the individual pieces of technology to make it all work are there but ATM the entropic loss of making the hydrogen on the vehicle is still to high.

Originally Posted by sschmez

Thanx Garry, for your opinion.
Yes, I've searched and as I stated earlier
I have found as much either way.

Ben's answer at least has a bit more substance.....
Some time ago I read that the percentages of hydrogen required compared to LPG in the diesel scenario were different due to the speed and temperature of combustion of hydrogen.

I'm not planning to build a system at this stage, I am however interested and remain open minded until I see enough science to sway me either way. Was hoping that Garry may have helped in this regard since such a strong opinion must have some basis. (I thought)

Miky, you are missing something ... read the thread

Everyone on the is thread is telling you it does not work and you seem to want to ignore this - build one and make your car run on it - oh and don't forget to fit a hyclone so that you do so you will not have to use much petrol at all.

Better still just show us one piece of scientific evidence that this works.

Endat

Originally Posted by Blknight.aus

entropic

There's that word, or the adjective of the noun I used earlier.

As a side issue, I stumbled across some early drawings of what looks to me like a fuelless power generation system. I can complete the design the power generation side. I just need someone to construct the pilot plant.
I'm offering a 50/50 split to the right person. I estimate we could make billions.
mc-escher-waterfall.jpg

Originally Posted by garrycol

Everyone on the is thread is telling you it does not work and you seem to want to ignore this - build one and make your car run on it - oh and don't forget to fit a hyclone so that you do so you will not have to use much petrol at all.

Better still just show us one piece of scientific evidence that this works.

Endat

Sorry Garry, you've missed the point again.............

Everyone on this thread saying it doesn't work or does work is not the point.

I WANT TO KNOW WHY IT WORKS OR DOESN'T WORK.

I've already said I don't know and I'm interested in the science, I'm not building anything at this point and I've got nothing to prove to you, myself or anyone else. I thought it was just a simple question and that since you have such a strong opinion you may have had some basis for it.

I also read alot and have a scientific aptitude so just 'cos Garry or anyone else says so doesn't mean it is so. (flat earth theory) .... thankfully Blacknight who says he's actually played with the stuff has shared his experiences and added something of some value to this thread.

heres the original thread...

Browns Gas, Please read before shooting .

Originally Posted by sschmez

I WANT TO KNOW WHY IT WORKS OR DOESN'T WORK.

Originally Posted by Mick_Marsh

"entropy" ... find out how much energy is required to split H2O into H2 and O2 and how much energy you get from combining H2 and O2 into H2O.

More energy is used to get hydrogen from water than you get burning hydrogen

Originally Posted by garrycol

The power required from the engine to generate the 12v to turn water into hydrogen is far greater than the energy given back to the engine by burning a minuscule amount of extra hydrogen in the engine.

This has been well proven by many organisations.

So very well put. If you don't believe Gary now, ask CSIRO (I have a contact there), NASA (read up about the Gemini missions), JPL at CalTech, MIT or even your local high school's chemistry department.

Originally Posted by Blknight.aus

getting the engine thats burning the hydrogen to improve the power out of the already injected fuel to provide the power to split water to make the hydrogen... no, thats the stumbling block.
......
the entropic loss of making the hydrogen on the vehicle is still to high.

Can you see the pattern developing here?

Further to the evidence

Originally Posted by bee utey

Mythbusters built one. Fitted it to a yank tank. It didn't work.

Empirically tested. Results in the public domain.

Finally

Originally Posted by Mick_Marsh

Oh, and could you please post up the qualifications of and scientific research done by the owner of the big yank tank you spoke to. I assume you asked him for those as well. I'm sure you wouldn't have accepted his opinion.

I can get you further information on why it does not work but "quid pro quo"
Give me the published (in a reputable journal), peer reviewed proof from the fellow in the yank tank you met. Also, as previously requested, his qualifications and scientific research.