Thread: EV general discussion

Change to Thailand report. Found dozen more BYD ev pvt and taxis while walk around Phukett old town. I should have taken my wet suite!!!! About twenty e-scooters spotted during my long walk.

The hills are why I thought ev bikes/cars should rock as the up is painful plus for everything the tuk tuks struggle and down regen IF ev should give back power on what now still cost for brake pads and a little bit of petrol.

The amount of Electricity used here is mind blowing - Air conditioning ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++ cost must hurt! A shopping centre I was in today was chilly. Hate to think of the costs!

Anyone here thought of U308 I wonder?

Originally Posted by NavyDiver

..................

Anyone here thought of U308 I wonder?

Has that been found down next to the Titanic as well?

DL

Originally Posted by Homestar

................saving the planet when only 7% of our emissions come from vehicles in the first place.

It’s all misplaced focus and the big polluters are very happy to keep it that way. I’ll keep driving a diesel vehicle knowing that it really does have **** all to do with the total emissions we produce in reality. Until other much bigger changes are made we’re ****ing in the wind with EV’s if you are only looking at one thing.

I think you've dropped a 1 as Aus transport is 17.6% of our emissions......What are the sources of Australia’s greenhouse gases? - CSIRO

• energy (burning fossil fuels to produce electricity) contributed 33.6 per cent of the total emissions
• stationary energy (including manufacturing, mining, residential and commercial fuel use) 20.4 per cent
• transport 17.6 per cent
• agriculture 14.6 per cent
• fugitive emissions 10.0 per cent
• industrial processes 6.2 per cent
• waste 2.7 per cent.

I think EV's and especially solar are popular in some quarters, as they are changes people can make, to affect the rest they'd have to, stop eating, stop using stuff. Hence the saying, "think global, act local". Once people have solar and/or an EV they will wonder why the businesses they support don't, and pressure will build for them to do so, albeit there may be some green washing, but it has already started for example, Big supermarkets set emissions reduction targets (afr.com) from the Aus Financial Review.

Originally Posted by Homestar

Yeah was about to chip in before I read Tombie’s post. Lowest spec Model Y is $69,000 and let’s say compare that to a base spec RAV4 - something that can handle a set of golf clubs and 4 people no dramas. They are $39,000 so a $30K difference. How much petrol will that buy? I’m glad you asked.

Currently $1.70 a litre around here but let’s say $1.90 a litre for ****s and giggles. That’s 15,789 litres of bang juice. RAV4 will average around 8 litres per 100KM, so around 200KKM or 13 years at the Australia average KM.

Average age of a car in Aus is 10 years.

RAV4 is still a pretty good goer at 10 years, and the Model Y - well we need to stay tuned for that don’t we.


You can see this doesn’t add up right saying you’re saving fuel by having an EV…?

The current price of a Rav4 is between 47 and 54k with the top one being 60k. Does toyota even bring in the base one?

A byd Atto is about 51 drive away. As of yesterday, a model 3 is 61 DA. In some states you might get some rebates. That alone looks pretty close. In some states you might get some rebates too. (in QLD some may qualify for 6.8k). I don't think that's greatly different.

Originally Posted by Tombie

Saving petrol money? Again it’s just funds shifting.
An equivalent Petrol vehicle of same trim level as say a Tesla is about 1/2 the price.

That’s a lot of petrol…and no inconvenience or limitations (short of a fuel strike).

TL;DR

On the other topics (to save another reply):
Public transport will never replace single drivers - convenience and timing just won’t allow it here.
Even where I live, a trip home after work will likely not be directly home. Nor will my work exit be “on time” it never is.
Most of my colleagues are the same.

And quite a way back in the thread you quoted “cleaner air in cities” - again that’s great, it’s NIMBY though. Less exhaust emissions in the city vs significant emissions at mine sites, processing facilities, power producers - even “renewables” which consume sickening amounts of CO2 in their structures and production processes.

By the time all of that is dealt with over the planned life of EV vehicles, it really isn’t beneficial. Lots of innocent workers will be dead or seriously ill, so that a western city can have clean(er) air. Lots of seriously big mining assets will have dug multitudes of dirt for the precious Lithium bearing ore, burning millions of tonnes of fuel to do so.

Copper miners will have multiplied production and emissions to make the necessary copper for engines, power transmission etc.

Iron producers (yes I make my living at one) will ramp production to make more cars and engines, meaning more emissions above and beyond…

It doesn’t end, we all use the same planet, same atmosphere. All that’s happening is little pockets of western air are slightly less dirty than 2nd / 3rd world areas.

There is no money to be saved by owner #1 of an EV.
It’s entirely swallowed by the up front cost vs an equivalent liquid fuelled vehicle.

My 195,000km travelled D4 has required $34,000 in fuel and cost ~$80k = $114,000 out of my pocket. And it’s 12 years old. The first 130,000km was done in the first 5 years.

When looking at a Tesla, it was $165,000 and would be turned over by 5 years.

That would then require the mining etc to produce another one for me to buy. Another $165,000 outlay (less trade in).

In the meantime, even with lots of solar, my power bill would increase significantly, my inconvenience would be exponentially increased, and a tiny part of my area would have slightly cleaner air.


So how is this a benefit?

So, "it will be required to be turned over" after 5 years? What's happening to the car then? Just shot into space?

The indications from the US is that most Tesla batteries at ten years have over 85% capacity still remaining. There will be a point that they won't be viable for sure, but it's probably going to be of similar age to most similar cars. We believe the new LFP batteries being used now should have less degradation.

And when that time comes, lithium batteries are in excess of 90% recyclable. So it's going to go around again.

FYI Teslas are far far less than 160k now. In fact, you'd get two of them for the price of a fairly poverty Land Rover.

Tesla slashes prices of best selling Model Y and Model 3 to lowest ever level

And seeing you're opposed to cleaner air in cities, and less people dying of pollution related deaths, won't you think of Australias fuel security? Or we love that Russian Oil?

I've said before and I'll say again.. if you really want to throw something at EV's that should stick it's the whole Jevons paradox stuff. Everytime you make something cheaper you use it more.. that's what humans do.

I find it hilarious that people can't deal with EV's. They are just cars with a different type of propulsion. They are still cars. They are probably a little bit better for the environment than an equivalent, but they're still a car. All car trips have consequence.

Jevons paradox - Wikipedia

• energy (burning fossil fuels to produce electricity) contributed 33.6 per cent of the total emissions
• stationary energy (including manufacturing, mining, residential and commercial fuel use) 20.4 per cent
• transport 17.6 per cent
• agriculture 14.6 per cent
• fugitive emissions 10.0 per cent
• industrial processes 6.2 per cent
• waste 2.7 per cent.

Transport includes
cars, trucks, buses, trains, ships, tractors, mining trucks, motorcycles, fire trucks, and probably a few more that I cannot think of.
I am all for electric buses, mining trucks, semis, etc but after much ado, there seems to be a general pull back from these.
I understand from news reports that the truck replacement battery thing has died and that the electric bus conversion plan by the Government has slooooowed down greatly. Also I seem to recall a slow down in the electric mining truck project.
Cheap EVs will first sell to virtue ( and rent) seeking companies and governments rather than individuals.
Still for a very significant part of the population even the cheapest EV is so far off the planet in cost for pensioners, low income workers, the unemplyed, students .
EVs are really an elitist luxury.
I can recall That Evs were proposed a few years back as the ideal car for retired people. retired people are usually asset rich and cash poor. even those who have cash seem unwilling to buy Evs. in my Probus club of 140members only one has a Tesla, and boy does he evangelise to the utter boredom of all others. He has a long range 3 and even then to go to broken Hill he had to make a detour of hundreds of Ks to find a charger to be able to make it. His wife also has a Hyundai Kona and admits to stealing power from motels . Lucky she wasn't caught .

Regards PhilipA

Just an other amusing titbit . When i worked for the NSW State government, they were tasked with buying Priuses. Same reasons as now. urban pollution etc. They sent them to the farrest flunge outposts. When I asked the Director General , based in Central Sydney why he hadn't swapped his Statesman for one I had a very icy reception.

BTW the Commonwealth Government Green Guide says this

Motor vehicle exhausts also produce greenhouse gases that contribute to climate change. The main greenhouse gas produced by vehicles is carbon dioxide (CO₂), but they also produce nitrous oxide and methane. Light vehicles account for around 11 per cent of Australia's greenhouse gas emissions.

So closer to 8% than 18%.

Originally Posted by PhilipA

Transport includes
cars, trucks, buses, trains, ships, tractors, mining trucks, motorcycles, fire trucks, and probably a few more that I cannot think of.
I am all for electric buses, mining trucks, semis, etc but after much ado, there seems to be a general pull back from these.
I understand from news reports that the truck replacement battery thing has died and that the electric bus conversion plan by the Government has slooooowed down greatly. Also I seem to recall a slow down in the electric mining truck project.
Cheap EVs will first sell to virtue ( and rent) seeking companies and governments rather than individuals.
Still for a very significant part of the population even the cheapest EV is so far off the planet in cost for pensioners, low income workers, the unemplyed, students .
EVs are really an elitist luxury.
I can recall That Evs were proposed a few years back as the ideal car for retired people. retired people are usually asset rich and cash poor. even those who have cash seem unwilling to buy Evs. in my Probus club of 140members only one has a Tesla, and boy does he evangelise to the utter boredom of all others. He has a long range 3 and even then to go to broken Hill he had to make a detour of hundreds of Ks to find a charger to be able to make it. His wife also has a Hyundai Kona and admits to stealing power from motels . Lucky she wasn't caught .

Regards PhilipA

Just an other amusing titbit . When i worked for the NSW State government, they were tasked with buying Priuses. Same reasons as now. urban pollution etc. They sent them to the farrest flunge outposts. When I asked the Director General , based in Central Sydney why he hadn't swapped his Statesman for one I had a very icy reception.

BTW the Commonwealth Government Green Guide says this

So closer to 8% than 18%.

Director General types might be an issue? I suspect the changes occuring will be faster than many think and a lot faster than some want. Prices are failing fast, battery tech is improving faster than most thought possible. My range handicapped MG 200ish is now 400 or more at the same or lower price. Director General types might like the new polestar very statesman like and possibly cheaper in inflation adjusted money? I know a

Us very long range 4wd towing types are still waiting patiently

Originally Posted by NavyDiver

.....
Us very long range 4wd towing types are still waiting patiently

Speak for yourself. I probably only have another ten years of driving - can you seriously see any possibility of a heavy four wheel drive EV that can be afforded by a pensioner in that time frame? Unfortunately, I can't. My 110 has not quite done 700,000, and is currently worth about what I paid for it over thirty years ago, and it will probably still be going in that time frame. But I would really like to replace it with a practical EV that can actually reach my home, and can tow my trailer occasionally, (no deliveries here) and carry all my grandkids on occasion.