Thread: EV general discussion

It's hot here in QLD. Like really hot.

Last night the missus walks into the lounge "Why is is dark in here?".

Quick look our voltage monitor and we are down at 190V in the house. No we were not charging our car but we sure were using our AC. And so it would appear was everyone else.

Personally if I was really worried about the grid stability - I'd be more worried about our reliance on AC. Many of our big power users like pools, and car charging can be encouraged to be done off peak. Things like AC and cooking can't really be time shifted. People need to use them when they get home.

Solar keeps us afloat when it's charging but we need to look solidly at encouraging more climate efficient houses, better local electricity grids to cope with when everyone is running it - and grid scale storage to supplement during evening peak.

Perhaps we could even encourage people to use their car batteries to support the local grid instead.

Define grid scale storage, then show me where this should be kept?

That stupid Tesla battery built not far from here can keep a very limited number of properties running for 8 minutes.
When you see the footprint it dominates, now scale up to support more than 100,000 homes for more than 8 minutes - and that’s massive.

And those hot nights, where the AC is on all night - that’s a flat battery on the EV in the morning. Because that base load supply isn’t coming back any time soon under those conditions (at least not until everyone’s solar arrays kick off again in the morning).

Originally Posted by Tombie

Define grid scale storage, then show me where this should be kept?

That stupid Tesla battery built not far from here can keep a very limited number of properties running for 8 minutes.
When you see the footprint it dominates, now scale up to support more than 100,000 homes for more than 8 minutes - and that’s massive.

And those hot nights, where the AC is on all night - that’s a flat battery on the EV in the morning. Because that base load supply isn’t coming back any time soon under those conditions (at least not until everyone’s solar arrays kick off again in the morning).

Ideally that would be provided by 2 million grid connected EVs which could keep 10 million homes powered for 1-4hrs during blackouts.

The SA big battery is only the equivalent to around 5,000 EVs and is really only intended to provide stability to the grid for minutes to give time for additional generators to come on line.

The Portland Aluminium Smelter provides the same benefit by being able to instantly tap down taking base load off the grid which provides the stability during the time it takes generators to spin up.

There is a 320MW gas power plant near where I am which is just for peak power demand but takes 10-15 minutes to come on line.

Grid connected EVs (and house solar storage batteries) certainly can be beneficial to managing peak power demand and bridge this time it takes for gas generators to come on line. And given most EVs spend most of their time parked up at home - why not put this capacity to use.

Will be interesting to see where Germanys EV sales go now incentives have gone - reuters.com.

Originally Posted by NavyDiver

Great fudging figures- Daihatsu will it survive?

Toyota own Daihatsu so it may.

Originally Posted by Tombie

Define grid scale storage, then show me where this should be kept?

That stupid Tesla battery built not far from here can keep a very limited number of properties running for 8 minutes.
When you see the footprint it dominates, now scale up to support more than 100,000 homes for more than 8 minutes - and that’s massive.

And those hot nights, where the AC is on all night - that’s a flat battery on the EV in the morning. Because that base load supply isn’t coming back any time soon under those conditions (at least not until everyone’s solar arrays kick off again in the morning).

Those "Big Batteries" despite their name are not really "grid scale storage". They are more for covering momentary loses of power to ensure grid stability. Very useful things but not in large numbers.

There are lots of different options. Pumped hydro is currently the front runner but the whole idea of this is there will be many complementary methods of storage. Last I heard was someone had worked out there were roughly 4500 sites around Aus that could be suitable for pumped hydro.

I guess the point is the power companies are showing zero interest in this because it's just not what they do. They just want to sell coal power because it's easy and it's what they have now and someone else paid to build them long time ago. They don't care about the price of electricity as long as they are making money.

As a country though the cost of energy is very important. It's a competitive advantage/disadvantage for us. Renewables and proper storage will reduce the cost and increase our national competitiveness. Hence I think this stuff really needs to be taken out of their hands and done in the national interest. You can't expect privately owned power companies to do this kind of thing as their only priority is making money. Oh well.

Originally Posted by DiscoDB

Grid connected EVs (and house solar storage batteries) certainly can be beneficial to managing peak power demand and bridge this time it takes for gas generators to come on line. And given most EVs spend most of their time parked up at home - why not put this capacity to use.

Exactly.. it's insanity that we aren't working on this right now. V2G is not about running the whole grid over night it's about short term peak loads.

The insanity is this storage capacity has already been paid for (by someone else). You've just got to come up with a framework to utilise it that gives the owners some compensation as well.

But again - private companies have no interest in this. The will only act in the national interest if they are forced to.

Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

Those "Big Batteries" despite their name are not really "grid scale storage". They are more for covering momentary loses of power to ensure grid stability. Very useful things but not in large numbers.

There are lots of different options. Pumped hydro is currently the front runner but the whole idea of this is there will be many complementary methods of storage. Last I heard was someone had worked out there were roughly 4500 sites around Aus that could be suitable for pumped hydro.

I guess the point is the power companies are showing zero interest in this because it's just not what they do. They just want to sell coal power because it's easy and it's what they have now and someone else paid to build them long time ago. They don't care about the price of electricity as long as they are making money.

As a country though the cost of energy is very important. It's a competitive advantage/disadvantage for us. Renewables and proper storage will reduce the cost and increase our national competitiveness. Hence I think this stuff really needs to be taken out of their hands and done in the national interest. You can't expect privately owned power companies to do this kind of thing as their only priority is making money. Oh well.

I’m aware of this! I’m pointing out to get to “grid scale” is hundreds/thousands of hectares of land consumed by storage units.

Pumped hydro, well, I was deeply involved in a project (we have a few of those 4,500 suitable sites). Had plenty of meetings of all types with the AER, power networks, the wholesalers. Worked on the modelling for behind/in front of meter options. Worked on route to market upgrades including stakeholder engagement with landowners. Worked with the design team on the storage dams, on the high density concrete structures required, even had a plan to float solar on top of the holding dam to reduce evaporation and add power to the pumping operation.

Project shelved - simply doesn’t stack up. The economics are horrendous, water usage is borderline criminal due to losses. The time for the dam to fill before first use was nearly 10 months!



As for grid stability well isn’t it quite cute currently.

LPMA, Castalloy, LBB, and several others all ramp down during high power demand periods.

It buffers the grid, sure, and the government quietly pays the agreed penalties to each group for the inconvenience.
The compensation hourly is quite extraordinary and has to cover lost productivity, refractory damage, reduced asset life due to increased process variability and cycling.

Another subsidy to the renewable grid that isn’t openly known.