Thread: EV general discussion

Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

More LOLs from me. The guy on a LandRover forum likes his cars to have good resale.

Anyway leaving that aside - I do think while the price war is hotting up that we are going to see solid EV depreciation. Probably no worse than ice cars of similar prices - but it's going to seem bad after the pandemic boom and early EV resale prices. Lower operating costs will offset this (likely with change).

The thing is IMHO the EV price war is not just going to be about EV's. It's going to spread to ICE cars. Pretty soon people will have the choice of a second hand camry hybrid or an brand new (likely chinese) EV for similar prices. The EV won't have the range of the camry, but will beat it in all other respects. Lower costs for "fuel", less servicing etc.

I remember when Hyundai hit the Australian market. The resale of all secondhand cars dropped because you could buy a second hand car or a new Hyundai. IMHO it not going to be long until legacy manufacturers give up competing with the coming EV wave, and will try and hide in the corners of the markets that EV's aren't competitive in. Like the 4x4 ute market and large 4x4. And even then I expect some pain as EV manufacturers try to hit that market.

And it's happening even faster than I expected. I thought we would see this end of the decade but looks like it's going to be the next few years.

But I guess it's easy to ignore little old me. The thing is there are a lot of industry insiders who have seen what's happening in China and are just saying "We're f#$%ed".

From the head of Kia.

"Australia's new-car market is set to "change dramatically", with the influx of Chinese brands, putting legacy car makers at real risk of failure."

"It is going to change dramatically": Kia says Chinese brands like MG, Haval, Chery, BYD, GAC, Leapmotor and Geely will permanently reshape Australia's new-car market, putting legacy brands like Toyota, Ford, Hyundai, Nissan, Mitsubishi and Mazda at risk - Car News | CarsGuide

Definitely, my BiL used to buy ten new cars at a time, every second year. All Fords, from top spec Fairlanes to pov pack utes and vans. Along came Hyundai et al, and the depreciation accelerated to the point that turnover was extended to five years.
There are far more el cheapo, Chinese options these days, either ICE or EV, that second hand prices will plummet after 2~3 years.

Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

If you think an SX camry is much better in any metric I probably can't help you and you're not being objective. Mcpherson struts, 131kwh .. LOL.

Hows internet connectivity of the Camry? Can you turn the AC on via the app on a hot day? etc etc..

Also.. does the camry get a 6k rebate?

Does the camry cost 1.20 per 100k to run? I guess you enjoy going and talking to the people at the dealer every six months..

Quite entertaining. Let's try to be objective then. I would argue that the interior appointment, the fit and finish, the build quality and reliability of a toyota is, has been and possibly for the foreseeable future will be miles ahead of a tesla (model 3 and s certainly). Also even the fairly large Camry still weighs considerably less than that overweight bumper car that is the model 3, nevermind the model S that weighs more than my bloody range rover! Also, the ride quality is appalling as far as I am concerned. Admittedly, the camry's CVT is not the most refined way of driving either.

Now about power. That is the most annoying thing about EVangelists imho. We have known how to build powerful electric motors for, oh, 100 years or so? It's actually not that hard and the nature of an electric motor means torque and power over a fairly wide band from the get go. So, yes, an EV that can do 0-60 in 2 seconds... I just don't find that impressive, at all, what so ever. It's the nature of the beast but it is being used to slap petrolheads around the head with since we have used that metric for so long. I would argue that it is WAY more impressive and certainly a lot more difficult to get that kind of performance out of a complex mechanical machine like an ICE. But let's turn this the other way around. A tesla model s (not sure about the 3) tops out at 190kph. If I do that with my 25 year old honda legend (which is quieter than a model S btw in the cabin) I can do that for 2,5hrs straight on the autobahn and fill up in 5 minutes to be on my way again. (and yes I have done that from munich, I worked for BMW funny enough, back home) Let's see an EV do that...

I know, I know, this is oz and not Germany and what not, but the fact I am trying to convey here: it's hard for an EV to do that but easy for an ICE. In other words, when an EV comes around that is capable of such a feat, that WOULD be impressive.

And finally I personally do not like touch screens in my car. Again, I know in oz not a problem but try northern european winters where one drives with a big fat coat on and gloves... The UI of a tesla (or other touch screen vehicle) is worthless. And regarding the internet connectivity I can have apple carplay or android auto and that's good enough. My car does not need a simcard, I do not WANT my car to have a simcard thank you very much.

BTW
Can I start my AC with an app? yes/no. I have a viper car alarm which has been around for decades and it has a remote start function. Whenever I get ready to leave I press a button (on the very long range remote btw) and the ICE will fire up and the climate control will do it's thing, heating in winter, cooling in summer. That "feature" has been around for, oh, 30 years or so. Viper now also have a version that works with an app but I never bothered to upgrade. Maybe if this one breaks.

To conclude, I find an EV to not be the "revolution" it is made out to be, it is an evolution at most and one with as many downsides, features, and perks as that what came before it just in different points. The only reason that they MAY have some bonuses like running costs are currently artificially kept up by rebates, government sponsoring and (also a form of government sponsoring I guess) a lack of equal taxation of both the fuel and ownership of an EV (at least here in europe, but most likely also in oz).

Cheers,
-P

This thread goes on and on - going around in circles endlessly covering the same things over and over.

EVs in their modern form is relatively new technology and will take time to sort themselves out. They have their strengths and weaknesses.

ICE vehicles obviously have been around for a very long time and have an advantage of having infrastructure in place and like EVs they have their strengths and weaknesses.

FFS lets stop knocking each of them endlessly and as you would buy anything else, just buy what suits you.

Garry

Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

.......... Anyone who thinks EV's are "zero emission" is delusional anyway.

What we really need people to do is to stop driving everywhere. Live locally, catch PT, ride, walk. Unfortunately we've poured soo many resources into making cars irresistible that no surprise, we're not getting enough volunteers for the better choices. Yes this won't work for everyone but it's early days yet.

So EV's are better than ICE. That's what we're going for. EV's unlike ICE will continue to get lower emissions as our grid becomes more renewable. That's why the longer we delay the transition the harder it's going to be to hit targets, and the more likely hood that we will have to take measures to actively discourage ICE at some point (sorry)........

Everything has emissions, including viewing this web page, as it is basically emitting CO2 on a computer and/or at a data centre somewhere.

It seems EV's are half the emissions of a petrol according to the below article, even including the building and decommissioning. More embodied CO2 during manufacture but equalises at about 38 000k's and just gets better from there. Are electric cars better for the environment than fuel-powered cars? Here's the verdict - ABC News

Originally Posted by RANDLOVER

Everything has emissions, including viewing this web page, as it is basically emitting CO2 on a computer and/or at a data centre somewhere.

It seems EV's are half the emissions of a petrol according to the below article, even including the building and decommissioning. More embodied CO2 during manufacture but equalises at about 38 000k's and just gets better from there. Are electric cars better for the environment than fuel-powered cars? Here's the verdict - ABC News

The only green car trip is one you don't make. If you want to reduce your carbon emissions from transport you should walk, cycle, take public transport. These options work and make a meaningful difference.

Unfortunately - it's not always possible to do this. For an endless number of reasons. These reasons generally range from necessity right through to choice or prefference.

So if you have to drive an EV is likely less bad. If they are suitable it would be helpful if more people considered them when buying another car.

Personally that's my take.

Originally Posted by 101RRS

This thread goes on and on - going around in circles endlessly covering the same things over and over.

EVs in their modern form is relatively new technology and will take time to sort themselves out. They have their strengths and weaknesses.

ICE vehicles obviously have been around for a very long time and have an advantage of having infrastructure in place and like EVs they have their strengths and weaknesses.

FFS lets stop knocking each of them endlessly and as you would buy anything else, just buy what suits you.

Garry

Yes I agree - although there is a lot of people in here who won't consider for some reasons that I reckon are pretty wild. "I just reckon Camry's are better" etc.

My argument all along is that the crazy proliferation of SUV's and UTEs in Australia is insane. We don't all need to have cars capable of this stuff. Just looking at the streets around me here in inner suburban Brisbane all the families. So many people.. both cars in the family are either a 4x4 UTE or an SUV. House up the street has four ute/suv's and a little nissan. My new neighbours have a Ranger for dad and a big Jeep thing for Mum. These things are breeding. No one's garage in this suburb can fit these cars because they were all designed when cars were smaller. How did people manage? When I moved in here everyone kept their cars inside - and now they all have to live on the street. Further few if any show any signs of actually being used for their purpose.

And in this thread if I mention that probably this is a bit un-necessary it's on. "EV's are useless". Given that people are unwilling/unable to walk, cycle or catch public transport to help the climate. Do you reckon we could just get them to consider maybe one family car being an EV rather than a giant SUV? FFS?

Further on the above - people in here need to have a serious look at how they perceive cars. Every one of my cars has a purpose. That's fine. But we need to acknowledge that EV's are actually really good at some things. Towing your monster boat or caravan probably not. Driving up the beach not so. ETC. But for driving around the city, and actually as a highway car they are pretty darn good.

I drove my Defender to the mechanic on Monday. Normally I ride home from there but couldn't due to work issues. Anyway got a pickup in the EV. OMG it is so good at this type of trip. It's insanely comfortable by comparison. Quiet. Rides so nice! I just get in and it all works. I shake my head in disbelief at anyone who chooses to drive a defender around town by choice. Yes I understand that for many it might be their only car.. but man if you have another choice..

Anyway this article needs to be updated but the point holds. Yes modern cars have gotten more economical. But we've just bought bigger cars and driven them more so we're not any better off.

Myth: Cars are becoming more fuel efficient – Public Transport Users Association

IMHO if the haters in this thread really wanted to actually hit EV's where it hurts - this is what they should be pointing out. Because EV's cost less to run - people will just drive them more which will negate the climate benefits of EV's. Will anyone in here actually notice this point?

In economics, the Jevons paradox (/ˈdʒɛvənz/; sometimes Jevons effect) occurs when technological progress increases the efficiency with which a resource is used (reducing the amount necessary for any one use), but the falling cost of use induces increases in demand enough that resource use is increased, rather than reduced.^[1][2][3] Governments typically assume that efficiency gains will lower resource consumption, ignoring the possibility of the paradox arising.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons...0rather%20than

My argument all along is that the crazy proliferation of SUV's and UTEs in Australia is insane. We don't all need to have cars capable of this stuff. Just looking at the streets around me here in inner suburban Brisbane all the families. So many people.. both cars in the family are either a 4x4 UTE or an SUV. House up the street has four ute/suv's and a little nissan. My new neighbours have a Ranger for dad and a big Jeep thing for Mum. These things are breeding. No one's garage in this suburb can fit these cars because they were all designed when cars were smaller. How did people manage? When I moved in here everyone kept their cars inside - and now they all have to live on the street. Further few if any show any signs of actually being used for their purpose.

Mate, that is what freedom of choice in a democracy is all about.
The same applies to supermarkets. Do we need umpteen brands of butter for example? No we don't but that is what freedom is about.
Do we need umpteen colours and designs for houses? No but that is freedom. we can all live in Soviet style high rises.
Would it make you happy if there were no supermarkets, no individual houses?
Sounds like Russia to me.
Regards PhilipA