Thread: Grid can go 75% renewable

not even sure why you guys are arguing....

all the corporate arguments have all been done.

they know where they are spending their $$$.

and it's on renewables , in the many favoured schemes , now available for much cheaper power generation.

this was always going to be an inevitability , going back over 30yrs.....it just took better technology to bring it forward.

coal and gas and diesel can no longer compete profitably on the market , but they still have a very important role to play over the next 20-30yrs

I'm unsure how the likes of Adani and even our own Clive can envisage a future for coal , but it could be looking towards steel making.....there are still hundreds of developing nations need raw materials for their future.

Originally Posted by ramblingboy42

not even sure why you guys are arguing....

all the corporate arguments have all been done.

they know where they are spending their $$$.

and it's on renewables , in the many favoured schemes , now available for much cheaper power generation.

this was always going to be an inevitability , going back over 30yrs.....it just took better technology to bring it forward.

coal and gas and diesel can no longer compete profitably on the market , but they still have a very important role to play over the next 20-30yrs

I'm unsure how the likes of Adani and even our own Clive can envisage a future for coal , but it could be looking towards steel making.....there are still hundreds of developing nations need raw materials for their future.

I'm not saying I like coal or we shouldn't be putting more renewables in and phasing coal and eventually gas out, but there will come a time where things start to go wonky if this is all we're going to do. Other countries around the world (that are waaaaay ahead of us) are starting to see this. It will take another 10 to 15 years the way we are going to start seeing the same issues then trying to work out what to do about it - hopefully the rest of the world will have found a solution by then.

Originally Posted by Homestar

I'm not saying I like coal or we shouldn't be putting more renewables in and phasing coal and eventually gas out, but there will come a time where things start to go wonky if this is all we're going to do. Other countries around the world (that are waaaaay ahead of us) are starting to see this. It will take another 10 to 15 years the way we are going to start seeing the same issues then trying to work out what to do about it - hopefully the rest of the world will have found a solution by then.

Some times it a lot easier not being first. That's why I am a slow runner I would have a heart attack if I tried to keep up with the very fast movers.

See south oz kicked the ball off with hydrogen blend in gas lines. Only 5% but a start

"The Hyp SA project, run by Australian Gas Infrastructure Group (AGIG), plans to blend about 5% green hydrogen into its gas distribution network going to more than 700 homes in a suburb of Adelaide in South Australia, the state using the highest proportion of renewable energy for power." Link Its only a minnow at "1.25 megawat" of electrolysis to Hydrogen. I think that the poms are at 30% at some trail sites.

"Zero-carbon hydrogen has been injected into a UK gas network for the first time in a groundbreaking trial that could help to reduce carbon dioxide emissions.The 20% hydrogen and natural gas blend is being used to heat 100 homes and 30 faculty buildings at Keele University in Staffordshire. Unlike natural gas, when hydrogen is burned it produces heat and water as opposed to carbon dioxide"

My bad - they are 20%. Leaking pipes are not good for methane or hydrogen

Originally Posted by NavyDiver

Some times it a lot easier not being first. That's why I am a slow runner I would have a heart attack if I tried to keep up with the very fast movers.

See south oz kicked the ball off with hydrogen blend in gas lines. Only 5% but a start

"The Hyp SA project, run by Australian Gas Infrastructure Group (AGIG), plans to blend about 5% green hydrogen into its gas distribution network going to more than 700 homes in a suburb of Adelaide in South Australia, the state using the highest proportion of renewable energy for power." Link Its only a minnow at "1.25 megawat" of electrolysis to Hydrogen. I think that the poms are at 30% at some trail sites.

"Zero-carbon hydrogen has been injected into a UK gas network for the first time in a groundbreaking trial that could help to reduce carbon dioxide emissions.The 20% hydrogen and natural gas blend is being used to heat 100 homes and 30 faculty buildings at Keele University in Staffordshire. Unlike natural gas, when hydrogen is burned it produces heat and water as opposed to carbon dioxide"

My bad - they are 20%. Leaking pipes are not good for methane or hydrogen

Thanks - interesting information.

It does seem odd to me that one would burn H2 rather than run it through a fuel cell and then use a heat pump if you want to heat. I'd expect that because of the high efficiency of a H2 fuel cell for converting chemical energy into electricity combined with a heat pump that is inherently highly effective at converting electricity to heat that you get much more (possibly by a factor of 2 or 3) heat per kg of H2 than burning it as seems to be the case in SA and the UK. For cooking, using a fuel cell to generate electricity and then an induction top rather than gas I'd expect that once again you get more cooking done per kg of H2.

The crunch issue is how fast the price of H2 production can drop. Most estimates of future H2 prices assume some sort of 'learning curve' to extrapolate historical price reductions into the future and hence are intrinsically prone to inaccuracy.I am concerned that the more enthusiastic proponents of the hydrogen economy make optimistic assumptions about H2 generation costs, and we need to make sure we don't put a lot of eggs in the H2 basket for the short to medium term. [And I say this as someone who has been a fan of H2 since I listened to a seminar by the remarkable John Bockris on the subject back in the 1980s!].

Originally Posted by 1984V8110

Thanks - interesting information.

It does seem odd to me that one would burn H2 rather than run it through a fuel cell and then use a heat pump if you want to heat. I'd expect that because of the high efficiency of a H2 fuel cell for converting chemical energy into electricity combined with a heat pump that is inherently highly effective at converting electricity to heat that you get much more (possibly by a factor of 2 or 3) heat per kg of H2 than burning it as seems to be the case in SA and the UK. For cooking, using a fuel cell to generate electricity and then an induction top rather than gas I'd expect that once again you get more cooking done per kg of H2.

The crunch issue is how fast the price of H2 production can drop. Most estimates of future H2 prices assume some sort of 'learning curve' to extrapolate historical price reductions into the future and hence are intrinsically prone to inaccuracy.I am concerned that the more enthusiastic proponents of the hydrogen economy make optimistic assumptions about H2 generation costs, and we need to make sure we don't put a lot of eggs in the H2 basket for the short to medium term. [And I say this as someone who has been a fan of H2 since I listened to a seminar by the remarkable John Bockris on the subject back in the 1980s!].

I agree. The world is a odd place with efficiency at times. While the methane LNG ... are better than coal with the US gov site showing a very good science based example Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)
Pounds of CO2 emitted per million British thermal units (Btu) of energy for various fuels

Coal (anthracite) 228.6
Coal (bituminous) 205.7
Coal (lignite) 215.4
Coal (subbituminous) 214.3
Diesel fuel and heating oil 161.3
Gasoline (without ethanol) 157.2
Propane 139.0
Natural gas 117.0
Required amount to fix the last 100+ years of us is 0

SA is also doing good things with batteries.

Tesla battery scheme rolled out to homes without solar to build virtual power plant
ABC.net.au: Page Not Found

Originally Posted by DiscoMick

SA is also doing good things with batteries.

Tesla battery scheme rolled out to homes without solar to build virtual power plant
ABC.net.au: Page Not Found

At $2000 a year I’m not sure I’d want to add that cost to my power bill....

Story says the batteries are free to consumers whose power bills also fall by about 30% because of what they earn when the batteries discharge into the grid.