Grid can go 75% renewable

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Originally Posted by Homestar

New ways of thinking yes - but ya canna change the laws of Physics (Jim).

Large solar is causing all sorts of issues with the grid, so just whacking more solar farms in won’t work, several of the largest solar farms in Vic are finding out first hand it isn’t that simple and have to **** off completely quite frequently during the day - there isn’t anywhere for the power to go and they can’t maintain a base load or provide and fault current when needed so they are still an ‘add on’ at best and make up very little of the total power used. House systems with integrated batteries would be far better than large scale systems, but the price is still way too high for mass adoption. Large scale batteries are eye wateringly expensive and even the biggest ones are a drop in the ocean but are good at smoothing things out somewhat. If they are charged with renewable energy then they have a place but again, due to cost, we won’t see nearly enough of them to make a significant difference or enough to be able to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels any time soon.

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One word- two really as Hydrogen or green ammonia can both be made with solar, wind or any type of electricity and currently are

Not one day goes by with out a few million here and several hundred million there popping up

"The 2 MW PEM electrolyser is the second system to be delivered as part of the green hydrogen infrastructure network that is currently supplying hydrogen to the first 46 Hyundai trucks already operating in Switzerland and aiming to reach a fleet of 1,600 by 2025. The system will be filling 350 barg trailers directly at site to dispatch the hydrogen to the Hydrospider network in Switzerland. H2 Energy is working together with various partners to establish a nation‐wide network of hydrogen stations and corresponding supply chain in Switzerland as well as abroad. H2 Energy is focusing on producing only renewable energy-based hydrogen to contribute to the decarbonization of various sectors."

An interesting line I see is "global sales network World's largest electrolyzer manufacturer, with >3500 units" I am not sure how long before we will see a replacement of the million of tonnes of Carbon fuel made Hydrogen and ammonia we already use or for a store of wind, solar .... for when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine.

On a smaller scale my UPS set up at work got a bug- Its is my 8 Lazer Printers- they can spike well over 2000w each if all turned on at once! That blows of the grid again if it flicks off for longer than a few seconds. I an cope with well over 10,000 watts. well over 20,000 is pita [biggrin]

A test run on Sunday with my lazer printers turned off worked well. I turned the lazer printers on one at a time with now problems. The sun was rude and solar covered the whole building load most of the time. A cool change buy my battery software (RFX) had the batteries go to a hibernation mode at over 80%. Previously a test would have seen them strip to zero then fully charge and go back to sleep.

"Batteries are useful for short-term energy storage, and concentrated solar power plants could help stabilize the electric grid. However, utilities also need to store a lot of energy for indefinite amounts of time. This is a role for renewable fuels like hydrogen and ammonia. Utilities would store energy in these fuels by producing them with surplus power, when wind turbines and solar panels are generating more electricity than the utilities’ customers need.

Hydrogen and ammonia contain more energy per pound than batteries, so they work where batteries don’t. For example, they could be used for shipping heavy loads and running heavy equipment, and for rocket fuel." link



I am often wrong of course[thumbsupbig]

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Originally Posted by NavyDiver

I am often wrong of course[thumbsupbig]

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I'm not sure you are here though. Batteries are short term, expensive and frankly not scalable. Thermal is tried, tested, maintinable and thoroughly developed, they just need to find a way to store hydrogen in some form of sustainable manner with a decent density.

The person that manages to turn hydrogen and carbon dioxide into a viable (both process and energy input) synthetic fuel that emits only as much as it contains and has an energy density even vaguely close to current hydrocarbons is going to win the world.

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Originally Posted by BradC

I'm not sure you are here though. Batteries are short term, expensive and frankly not scalable. Thermal is tried, tested, maintinable and thoroughly developed, they just need to find a way to store hydrogen in some form of sustainable manner with a decent density.

The person that manages to turn hydrogen and carbon dioxide into a viable (both process and energy input) synthetic fuel that emits only as much as it contains and has an energy density even vaguely close to current hydrocarbons is going to win the world.

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And re-write Physics [emoji2]

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Originally Posted by Tombie

And re-write Physics [emoji2]

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Not really. It's still going to take a huge over-par energy input to make it. It's not about end to end efficiency, it's about efficient (on a time and density basis) storage. Given the world is hell bent on extinguishing reliable power and replacing it with something that works when we don't need it, and doesn't work when we do, taking that and using it to create a "dispatchable" fuel source is less about efficiency and more practicality.

We're not trying to circumvent thermodynamics, we're just trying to get as much energy as we can in a form we can use when we need it. If it takes 400% input to create it, then so be it.

The alternative is to keep subsidising "green" power such that we make conventional generation completely un-economical, and then we all freeze to death in the dark.

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Originally Posted by BradC

I'm not sure you are here though. Batteries are short term, expensive and frankly not scalable. Thermal is tried, tested, maintinable and thoroughly developed, they just need to find a way to store hydrogen in some form of sustainable manner with a decent density.

The person that manages to turn hydrogen and carbon dioxide into a viable (both process and energy input) synthetic fuel that emits only as much as it contains and has an energy density even vaguely close to current hydrocarbons is going to win the world.

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Investing is fun. Counting is a numbers game "Linde will invest more than $1bn in decarbonisation initiatives and triple the amount of clean hydrogen production by 2028, the industrial gas giant has set out in its 2020 Sustainable Development Report."

A billion from a wanbe is hot air. Linde /BOC is a giant [thumbsupbig] this is happening now in so many locations with more money than I can get my head around some days [biggrin] I wonder if the more than Billion is Euro or USD[bigwhistle]Not really bothered which[biggrin]

Physics isn't a problem. Local sub stations with batteries will store surplus solar and release it on demand, to smooth the grid. Solar and wind generators are also installing batteries and making profits.

Five large-scale community batteries to be integrated into the Sunshine-absorbent State’s substations – pv magazine Australia

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Originally Posted by DiscoMick

Physics isn't a problem. Local sub stations with batteries will store surplus solar and release it on demand, to smooth the grid. Solar and wind generators are also installing batteries and making profits.

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If you think batteries are the answer, you don't understand the problem. Anyone can build a battery system and make it work. Now try to do that over a time frame to make the battery environmentally sustainable. We make them, we use them, we throw them away because recycling them is more expensive than dumping them and building new ones.

You can't service and maintain a battery to last 50+ years like you can a boiler and turbine. Batteries are a short term solution to a long term problem and should be seen as nothing more than a stop gap while proper investment is put into sustainable technology.

Of course there's a lot of money to be made in disposable energy storage, so while that's happening we're not playing the long game.

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Originally Posted by DiscoMick

Physics isn't a problem. Local sub stations with batteries will store surplus solar and release it on demand, to smooth the grid. Solar and wind generators are also installing batteries and making profits.

Five large-scale community batteries to be integrated into the Sunshine-absorbent State’s substations – pv magazine Australia

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It’s an enormous problem.

Batteries etc run HUGE cooling systems.
So do wind turbines.
(Obviously Coal etc are low yield also)

To be effective we need a low energy loss system.
Physics currently states there won’t be parity as losses are huge.

Countering these losses requires big footprints.

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Originally Posted by DiscoMick

Physics isn't a problem. Local sub stations with batteries will store surplus solar and release it on demand, to smooth the grid. Solar and wind generators are also installing batteries and making profits.

Five large-scale community batteries to be integrated into the Sunshine-absorbent State’s substations – pv magazine Australia

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Sorry but as an Engineer who works with the grid, Physics is EXACTLY the problem…

I don't know if the Guardian article is paywalled through Microsoft, but the crux of the article is that Britain is desperately paying hugh sums ogf money to have coal power stations supply enough electricity to keep the lights on as even though there is low demand at the moment there is little wind, and gas supplies are limited.
NSW of the future.
Britain’s last coal power stations to be paid huge sums to keep lights on (msn.com)

I am surprised none of our Guardian quoters are not posting this article .
I wonder why?
Regards PhilipA