Thread: V8 Discovery on Hydrogen

Originally Posted by cnorris

Well said JohnE! No more posts on hydrogen on this forum from me.
Cheers
cnorris

mate, keep us up to date with your system, and how its going, some of us are realy intrested.

Originally Posted by mcrover

Pro : It is possible to build one of these systems
Con : It's doubtful if a home made system will work, espesially one as small as what Clean32 has.

...

funny, i thought i was running Bio diesel, have to lift the bonnet in the morring to check LOL

I am sure there are ways of working this out.

Energy provided by Hydrogen vs. Energy required to make hydrogen.

Any budding chemists out there please speak up.

P.S. Would you guys stop quoting Wikipedia as a reliable source - I watched my 12 yo daughter amend a Wikipedia page with 3 clicks of the mouse

"Look Dad, I'm famous!"

Originally Posted by Sleepy

I am sure there are ways of working this out.

Energy provided by Hydrogen vs. Energy required to make hydrogen.

Any budding chemists out there please speak up.

P.S. Would you guys stop quoting Wikipedia as a reliable source - I watched my 12 yo daughter amend a Wikipedia page with 3 clicks of the mouse

"Look Dad, I'm famous!"

Mate that’s simple, it takes more to produce than it will produce, no arguments there.
But if hydrogen is added to other fuels, it changes the way those fuels burn/ behave etc. The 2 most obvious is that the fuel will burn faster and cooler.

Hydrogen is the main addition to Diesel, in the clean diesel up thing of about 5 years ago, its also why octane ratings of diesel have increased ( a little) but there burn rate has increased much.
And it doesn’t need much hydrogen to change the burn properties of any given fuel.

Originally Posted by clean32

Mate that’s simple, it takes more to produce than it will produce, no arguments there.
Correct - probably overall efficiency is around 10%

But if hydrogen is added to other fuels, it changes the way those fuels burn/ behave etc. The 2 most obvious is that the fuel will burn faster and cooler.
I do not believe this (faster and cooler) is necessarily accurate when talking about hydrogen as an additive rather than a sole fuel. The main advantage of hydrogen as a fuel additive is that hydrogen will ignite over a much wider range of ratios to oxygen than just about any other fuel, and once ignited will provide a better ignition source than the spark, spreading the flame front much more reliably. This means that it will give better ignition in difficult conditions, such as idling, and this effect may result in increased economy. But it will also tend to mask any minor engine problems such as an out of tolerance sensor, plug gaps wrong, leaky HT leads etc and so give an improvement that could also have been achieved by fixing the problems. The quoted articles suggest most improvement will be in idling economy, but these depend on using a non standard (leaner) mixture and a much higher percentage of hydrogen than will be achieved by on board generators. Above idling, the increased combustion temperature from a leaner mixture may cause mechanical problems and excessive NOx and preclude these being used - at high powers engines will run on leaner mixtures without added hydrogen, but cannot meet durability and emission requirements. While hydrogen burning alone may burn cooler than petrol, I am not convinced that this will be the case when we are talking about a small percentage as an additive to petrol. As a general rule a leaner mixture will burn hotter, although if leaned far enough it will get cooler again - but the maximum thermal efficiency will be at the highest burn temperature - going past this on the lean side will decrease both power and fuel consumption (although it may be worth doing, for example on the overrun or when idling, if you can manage it without problems, and hydrogen may help here)

Hydrogen is the main addition to Diesel, in the clean diesel up thing of about 5 years ago, its also why octane ratings of diesel have increased ( a little) but there burn rate has increased much.
No. The main change to the 'clean diesel' is to reduce the sulphur content. Any change in the hydrogen content of the fuel is a result of removing the sulphur and not to do with the 'cleanness' of it. In any case, diesel fuel does not contain any free hydrogen so its behaviour is not related to the improved combustion achieved by adding hydrogen (or in fact any light fraction including LPG).
And octane rating is totally irrelevant to diesel fuel. Perhaps you are thinking of cetane rating, although this is not exactly equivalent.

And it doesn’t need much hydrogen to change the burn properties of any given fuel.

That is correct - but note that the references quoted talk about 2-5%, which is still a lot more than the on board generators will give.

I have added some comments on my analysis of the situation, which may help.

John

Originally Posted by clean32

Hydrogen is the main addition to Diesel, in the clean diesel up thing of about 5 years ago, its also why octane ratings of diesel have increased ( a little) but there burn rate has increased much.
And it doesn’t need much hydrogen to change the burn properties of any given fuel.

Sorry, but this is wrong. Cetane rating is what is important in diesel, not octane. Cetane is related to parrafin/olefin type molecule content, not aromatic content which governs octane rating.

As I have posted elsewhere (either here or on OL), these generators produce "brown's gas" - a mix of O2, H2 and water vapour. It is likely that the H2O vapour has the biggest effect, as it works like water injection, which has been proven to improve combustion efficiency and reduce NOx (I posted a paper somewhere on this - from Daimler Benz). However I am still sceptical that such a system could change fuel consumption by more than 1-2%.

Originally Posted by isuzurover

Sorry, but this is wrong. Cetane rating is what is important in diesel, not octane. Cetane is related to parrafin/olefin type molecule content, not aromatic content which governs octane rating.

As I have posted elsewhere (either here or on OL), these generators produce "brown's gas" - a mix of O2, H2 and water vapour. It is likely that the H2O vapour has the biggest effect, as it works like water injection, which has been proven to improve combustion efficiency and reduce NOx (I posted a paper somewhere on this - from Daimler Benz). However I am still sceptical that such a system could change fuel consumption by more than 1-2%.

I think I will believe Dr Ben over others.........He's really a Dr but I dont know of what

Hey If wikepedia isnt any good, Maybe tomorrow I should ring Dr Karl on JJJ and ask him

Now he will tell us if it's true or not

Originally Posted by BAILEY

buddy your a ****in nutcase

Oh so I cant call people stupid but.........

Who the hell are you anyway?

So are you another believer?

I must appologise to clean32, I should have checked and it's not his system its Cnorris's system.

Sorry I hope nobody died as a result of my mistake and I hope we can all get on with what we are doing.