Disco 3/4 Automatic Transmission FAQ - 6 Speed

[Tote]

Since my D3 has been getting the shudders I thought I'd post some of my research on a new thread rather than generating heaps of posts on the FAQ. Happy to be corrected on any points that other people know of, maybe we'll all learn something. So to kick it off....

Transmission is a ZF 6HP26 unit. Is currently fitted to BMWs, Ford Falcons and Territories, Audis and Jaguars to name a few

The transmission has been around in one form or another since 2001 when it was introduced on a 7 series

ZF have designated the transmission as "sealed for life" but a more accurate description of this strategy would be "sealed until the warranty period is over"

The Land Rover variant uses a plastic sump which has an inbuilt filter which is a throwaway with the sump at service time. The filter also means that the engine has to be lifted from one mount to fit the new sump. ZF make a steel sump part number 1068 103 820 01 Kit Sump. an alloy sump may also be available ex Ford. These variants do not have the filter inbuilt and can be fitted / removed without lifting the engine.

Fluid for these transmissions is ZF LifguardFluid6 part number S671 090 253 for a 20 litre drum. Dealers charge $78 a litre, other repairers less but it's still expensive.
Other alternatives may be Motospecs Part # 749626, Ford RI-28, Shell ATF M 1375.4, Mercon SP XT-6-QSP Ford have a RRP of $48 a litre for their oil.


The design of the 6hp26 is different in that it does not have bands but rather clutch packs and the transmission is completely electronically controlled. The torque converter clutch is modulated in that it can be engaging and releasing at a rapid rate to allow a transition between fully locked up and disengaged. The torque converter clutch can lock up in all gears

Due to these transmissions having no service schedule they develop a "shudder" that is similar to driving over a ripple strip embedded in the white line at the edge of a road. This is caused by the degredation of the oil and causes wear to the torque converter clutch and potentially damages the rest of the transmission through contamination and overheating.

It would seem that 50,000KM would be a good time to change the transmission fluid to delay the fault above happening.

Sport mode reduces the shudder substantially, possibly because the transmission is more likely to kick down a gear in response to increased load rather than modulating the torque converter to allow some slip.

There are reports from the UK of coolant contamination from the transmission cooler in the radiator becoming porous. It may be worthwhile to consider testing old fluid for glycol as a transmission flush will not help for long.

It's NOT a "Land Rover Problem".... Googling the transmission model number brings up lots of tales of woe from owners of these transmissions that have failed due to lack of oil changes.

When off road in steep country it is preferable to lock the vehicle in a suitable gear to reduce heat load on the transmission rather than leaving it in drive.

A new transmission will cost you in the vicinity of $7000 so regular oil changes make sense.

Thats all I can think of for now, any other thoughts welcome.
RMP, maybe when we have a complete list we could revise and put in the FAQ?

Regards,
Tote

[oldsalt]

I have heard of people putting the steel pan on - has anybody gone down the alloy route ?? Is there much weight difference and/or any issues with it getting "biffed" off-road ??? I'm about to get the big flush and a new pan very soon and would be interested in any feedback. The two place I have in mind are A & B in Dandenong and Manuel Transmissions in Thomastown ... I hear that they are both good with ZF boxes - any feedback on these appreciated as well.
cheers. :)

[bbyer]

To my disappointment, I am going to have my dealer put the replacement LR part number plastic tranny pan/oil filter combo on when he does the new oil, new filter thing in a couple of weeks along with an engine oil change.

For me, it was a money/sourcing question related more to the oil filter than anything else.

The plastic LR supplied pan costs about $300 here whereas the metal pan would come directly from ZF in Germany at a cost to me of about $500 plus another $100 for shipping.

That was still OK for me as the added cost would probably be offset by reduced labour to remove the pan and install the new one - not having to lift the engine/tranny etc.

The real problem was at next tranny oil filter change where I would have to preorder the oil filter from Germany, (not stocked in Canada), at a cost of maybe near $200.

I had figured that maybe a metal pan and filter from a Ford F250, (5 speed ZF), would work, but no, I pretty much have to use the official ZF part number from Germany as there is no A&B aftermarket pan easily available here. Yes, I could order one but ....

I actually expect the A&B pan and filter are both Ford Australia part numbers but that does not do me much good here in Canada. Somehow I cannot see A&B pressing out pans in a back room somewhere and then attaching magnets and drain plugs etc and throwing in a filter all for $200.00 just for a few D3's. If so, they should do winch bumpers as well.

As to tranny oil change interval, the dealer here suggests 75,000 km if driven for personal use, (mostly in town, and no off road), but more often if used off road or towing.

[WhiteD3]

It would seem that 50,000KM would be a good time to change the transmission fluid to delay the fault above happening.

I have to disagree, sorry :) My D3 has done 97k without a shudder or any other transmission issues. I've never towed anything so maybe this towing is a qualifier re the timing of the ATF change?

[RR P38]

Since my D3 has been getting the shudders I thought I'd post some of my research on a new thread rather than generating heaps of posts on the FAQ. Happy to be corrected on any points that other people know of, maybe we'll all learn something. So to kick it off....

Transmission is a ZF 6HP26 unit. Is currently fitted to BMWs, Ford Falcons and Territories, Audis and Jaguars to name a few

The transmission has been around in one form or another since 2001 when it was introduced on a 7 series

ZF have designated the transmission as "sealed for life" but a more accurate description of this strategy would be "sealed until the warranty period is over"

The Land Rover variant uses a plastic sump which has an inbuilt filter which is a throwaway with the sump at service time. The filter also means that the engine has to be lifted from one mount to fit the new sump. ZF make a steel sump part number 1068 103 820 01 Kit Sump. an alloy sump may also be available ex Ford. These variants do not have the filter inbuilt and can be fitted / removed without lifting the engine.

Fluid for these transmissions is ZF LifguardFluid6 part number S671 090 253 for a 20 litre drum. Dealers charge $78 a litre, other repairers less but it's still expensive.
Other alternatives may be Motospecs Part # 749626, Ford RI-28, Shell ATF M 1375.4, Mercon SP XT-6-QSP Ford have a RRP of $48 a litre for their oil.


The design of the 6hp26 is different in that it does not have bands but rather clutch packs and the transmission is completely electronically controlled. The torque converter clutch is modulated in that it can be engaging and releasing at a rapid rate to allow a transition between fully locked up and disengaged. The torque converter clutch can lock up in all gears

Due to these transmissions having no service schedule they develop a "shudder" that is similar to driving over a ripple strip embedded in the white line at the edge of a road. This is caused by the degredation of the oil and causes wear to the torque converter clutch and potentially damages the rest of the transmission through contamination and overheating.

It would seem that 50,000KM would be a good time to change the transmission fluid to delay the fault above happening.

Sport mode reduces the shudder substantially, possibly because the transmission is more likely to kick down a gear in response to increased load rather than modulating the torque converter to allow some slip.

There are reports from the UK of coolant contamination from the transmission cooler in the radiator becoming porous. It may be worthwhile to consider testing old fluid for glycol as a transmission flush will not help for long.

It's NOT a "Land Rover Problem".... Googling the transmission model number brings up lots of tales of woe from owners of these transmissions that have failed due to lack of oil changes.

When off road in steep country it is preferable to lock the vehicle in a suitable gear to reduce heat load on the transmission rather than leaving it in drive.

A new transmission will cost you in the vicinity of $7000 so regular oil changes make sense.

Thats all I can think of for now, any other thoughts welcome.
RMP, maybe when we have a complete list we could revise and put in the FAQ?

Regards,
Tote

Nice work with the fact finding.
It is hard to believe that a part as critical to a vehicle as a transmission is so "neglected" by a vehicle manufacturer such as L/R. Particularly when it is for off rd use in remote areas. How does L/R think people can be trip prepared and have confidence in their of road vehicle if they cant even service something (at a reasonable cost).
I guess it looks good on L/Rs servicing shedule (as its not there).
I think they call this out sourcing.
It is obviously the way most transmissions will go, some mechanics in the future will never work on a transmission other than to pull them out and put a new one in at great cost to an irate owner.

[Rockylizard]

.............It is obviously the way most transmissions will go, some mechanics in the future will never work on a transmission other than to pull them out and put a new one in at great cost to an irate owner.

Gday...

It is not just transmissions ... "mechanics" (who are no longer "mechanics" but "technicians") do not fix anything anymore. It is all test it - find fault - remove & replace. There is very little that is 'fixed' or 'overhauled' anymore.

And to make it worse, the "technician" decides it needs remove & replace ... and gets the 2nd year apprentice to do the work.

They charge "technician's" hourly rate, but pay the 2nd year apprentice's hourly rate. Been that way for years now.

Now in my day.........:wheelchair:......
Cheers
John

[101RRS]

I believe (but not confirmed) that the reason that the oil is in for life (as mentioned on most modern European auto vehicles) is to meet European oil pollution requirements - less oil disposed of means ultimately less pollution. Most manufactures have had this requirement thrust upon them rather than it being a manufacturers requirememt.

While I think Tote's 50,000km is a bit too soon (noting it is a number that prevents the issue not when it starts) I think 100,000km is longest that oil should remain in the box. L322 experience shows that 130,000km will ruin a box behind a V8 petrol but will last alot longer behind a TD6 - however different boxes are involved.

My RRS is coming up to its 48,000km service soon and I will discuss with the service agent but I will most likely get a mega flush at its 96,000 service assuming all is still well.

Garry

[Mike_S]

My RRS has just had the gearbox oil changed, after a leak developed from the input shaft & also one from the transfer box (having covered 57,000 miles). Have to say, the gear change is now much smoother and the 'clunk' I used to get occasionally when asking the box to grab 1st gear at junctions has now gone. It's very noticeable how much better the box now behaves.

I think that flushing out the box is a bit OTT, I'd much prefer to just change the oil and leave it at that, I don't see a benefit in essentially changing the (very expensive) oil twice.

[garryc]

I have to disagree, sorry :) My D3 has done 97k without a shudder or any other transmission issues. I've never towed anything so maybe this towing is a qualifier re the timing of the ATF change?
I've been through all this and my oil at 70,000km was dark. The ZF website says change oil at 80-120,000km if towing, high temperature or high speeds. I spoke to ZF in Sydney and said my D3 is over 3 tonnes when fully laden and he said that is the same as towing! I have done 2 more double flushes and am up to 125,000km on the vehicle. Checking the oil every third or fourth service is a wise move.;)

[oldsalt]

Just booked my D3 in for a full auto service and a new "steel" pan on Wednesday. Being done at "Manuel Automatics" in Thomastown, I had a good long talk to the owner and they seem very knowledgeable re Landrovers (they do a lot for Les Richmond Auto) - so we'll see how it goes, I checked all the part numbers etc with them and they assured me they only use genuine ZF parts and oils. I'll post a report when I've got it back.
cheers :)

[Tote]

Some more info, the link below has the recommended fluids ( I wonder how much Masarati fluid costs) and recommended change intervals.

"ZF 5 and 6-speed as well as the ZF 4HP20 automatic transmissions are filled maintenance-free with specially developed partially
synthetic ATF oils. Maintenance-free fills are intended for normal operating conditions. Especially driving at very high operating
temperatures can result in accelerated aging or increased wear of ATF oils. It is recommended, in the event of severe operating
conditions, such as:
- frequent highway driving in top speed range,
- offensive, sporty driving style,
- frequent trailer operation,
being above average, oil purification (oil change) on automatic transmissions is recommended between 80,000 km and 120,000 km, or
8 years, depending on the load.
In each case, only released ATF oil may be used for oil changes. And oil changes must be performed in accordance with the relevant
specifications."

http://www.zf.com.au/Tech%20Info/Lubrication%20Lists/TE-ML_11.pdf

Regards
Tote

[oldsalt]

Had the transmission done yesterday, metal sump kit - $300, 5.5 litres of Lifeguard oil - $197 - labour $254, they said the oil that came out was "very clean" (which is always nice to know) - before the "service" it ran pretty smooth but now it's very smooth indeed, so I'm very pleased with the way "Manuel Automatics" of Thomastown did the job, nice people to deal with - on time & courteous - explained all the work they had done - what more can you ask.
cheers :)

[chuck]

Old Salt

I am in Fawkner so Thomastown is handy.

Regards

Chuck

[OzV8]

There are reports from the UK of coolant contamination from the transmission cooler in the radiator becoming porous. It may be worthwhile to consider testing old fluid for glycol as a transmission flush will not help for long.



A cab driver (Ford Fairlane) in Brisbane told me this happened to him. He also complained about the fact that it cost $9000 for a new 6 speed ZF when the old 4 speed Ford box could be had for $1400!

[Preacher]

I have to disagree, sorry :) My D3 has done 97k without a shudder or any other transmission issues. I've never towed anything so maybe this towing is a qualifier re the timing of the ATF change?

I've just had my auto stripped down looking for a noise (preventative measure) they tell me it looked brand new and must have been off a low miledge rig. Have done 120k no towing until NOW. Didn't find the noise, new bearings while it was down.

dj

[gasman]

All this talk is making feel nervous.:eek:

Anyone recommend a ZF specialist near the NSW Central Coast.

Will travel for right people as previous experiences tell me the coast has a higher than normal level of mechanically challenged people, no make that challenged at everything!

[gasman]

Thanks Tote for your information, now I understand a bit better.
Mine is shuddering when existing a roundabout then disappears.
So now I am in a dilema. Do I spend $700 on an auto service or do I spend $2200 on reconditioning the TC as they will have replace the oil in either instance? (my box was re'coed 50k ago).

Thanks

[bbyer]

So now I am in a dilemma. Do I spend $700 on an auto service or do I spend $2200 on reconditioning the TC as they will have replace the oil in either instance? (my box was re'coed 50k ago).
Thanks I wondered if you know which shop did the reconditioning? If so, and if they would talk to you, perhaps they would answer that question for you.

It could be that they remember the tranny, particularly if it was not so good. It all comes down to trust and luck. My guys when they changed the pan filter etc said based on what they found stuck on the pan magnets that the tranny was still OK but there was a bit more metal on the magnets than they would have liked to see for 126,000 km.

Tranny rebuilds, like engine rebuilds, come down to a question of the parts you leave in and what you replace. Often that is decided by who is paying, not the guys doing the fixing. Me, in the absence of anything else, I would probably do another oil change, but make certain that the official Land Rover oil was used. The tranny will then either get better or get worse.

The way to "quick fix" a tranny that is slipping is to add find metal powder to the oil - that reduces slip for awhile - at least until you are far away from the shop; hence new clean oil of the correct type will either solve the problem as it washes out stuff, (glazing), causing the problems or the problem becomes worse because the oil is attempting to do what it is supposed to do, and the parts are such that the oil cannot do its job of transmitting torque.

[ADMIRAL]

I wondered if you know which shop did the reconditioning? If so, and if they would talk to you, perhaps they would answer that question for you.

It could be that they remember the tranny, particularly if it was not so good. It all comes down to trust and luck. My guys when they changed the pan filter etc said based on what they found stuck on the pan magnets that the tranny was still OK but there was a bit more metal on the magnets than they would have liked to see for 126,000 km.

Tranny rebuilds, like engine rebuilds, come down to a question of the parts you leave in and what you replace. Often that is decided by who is paying, not the guys doing the fixing. Me, in the absence of anything else, I would probably do another oil change, but make certain that the official Land Rover oil was used. The tranny will then either get better or get worse.

The way to "quick fix" a tranny that is slipping is to add find metal powder to the oil - that reduces slip for awhile - at least until you are far away from the shop; hence new clean oil of the correct type will either solve the problem as it washes out stuff, (glazing), causing the problems or the problem becomes worse because the oil is attempting to do what it is supposed to do, and the parts are such that the oil cannot do its job of transmitting torque.

Hey what!! Most transmission manufacturers have quite sophisticated filtering systems to eliminate foreign material, particularly metal, from the fluid. I cannot see this being good for any transmission IMO.

[bbyer]

Hey what!! Most transmission manufacturers have quite sophisticated filtering systems to eliminate foreign material, particularly metal, from the fluid. I cannot see this being good for any transmission IMO. You are correct, metal filings are bad for the transmission and that is one reason that ZF has put two magnets in the bottom of the plastic oil pan. I was surprised as to how many metal slivers and how much metal paste was clinging to the magnets when the plastic filter / pan combo was replaced in my ZF. The magnets were doing their job and provided an indication of the degree of operational wear within the transmission.

As to purposely pouring metal filings in with the transmission oil, well this is equivalent to packing a rear differential with sawdust. The sawdust quiets the gears down for a time, long enough for a difficult client to depart; the metal filings increase the viscosity of the transmission oil such that the client can also depart. These "fixes" normally are a result of the vehicle owner blaming the shop for the mechanical problems.

In the case of a transmission, often it is the dirty oil that has kept the vehicle at least mobile. In this case, the result of an oil change is that the vehicle cannot even back off the hoist. An unreasonable owner then blames the shop, insists the tranny was OK when the vehicle drove onto the hoist, claims the shop wrecked it so they better fix it - they do.:o

[gasman]

Thanks for all your thoughts guy's, I think I will have it serviced first. Now the next problem: find a decent ZF mechanic on the Central Coast or near to.

[gasman]

Hi all.
Found out through the previous owner that the auto was still under warranty from rebuild. Lucily, as it turns out I had just 900klms to go.
Left with the mechs for 3 days and on the 3rd.......
Well, even after them saying there was nothing wrong with the box, they dropped the pan, saved the oil for reuse and apparently change the modulators. Whatever they did has seemed to fix the problem.
Word of caution though:
Get 3 opinions before doing anything and ask around first,as I was told that the TC was gone and it was a $7500 rebuild, where as the second guy said if the TC was gone, you would feel shuddering in all gears not just 3rd.
IMHO the advise I received from the tranny guys was all a bit sus and I have just been lucky!
Good Luck

[discos_galore]

My D3 had a shudder under accelleration in 3rd. It had 120k on the clock, I've had it for about 50 k without doing much towing but I don't know it's life prior to me. I put in to Hiline 4 wd in Traralgon and he replaced the sump pan with a metal one and replaced the tranny fluid with genuine stuff and flushed it out just a bit and the shudder is gone.

Did the lower control arms on the front for me too and now it handles like a sports car again.

I recommend his services should anyone be looking for a land rover specialist that isn't a stealer.
:)

[Ashes]

I had the "auto service" pan/oil replace today and lower control arms replaced. Much improved ride, tighter steering and no knock from the front over bumps.
My transmission wasn't giving me any warning signs or grief so not a huge difference in that but it is possily a little smoother. Car had done 84k so nice to have the new car feel back again.

[dk09]

Hi,

I have a D4 3.0 SE and it almost has 15,000kms.
I am worried about my transmission.

I haven't spoken to LR yet - but thought I would share some early symptoms here, to see if I do indeed have something to worry about.

So - I do mainly short trips, which I know isn't the best for a vehicle - but lets face it a vehicle that hasn't even got 15,000 shouldn't present any symptoms like:

On a couple of occasions over the past week the trans has slipped, early on in the journey.

The trans doesn't appear to change up to a higher gear as "fast" as it previously did when travelling between 50 -60kms. i,e at 50kmh ish the tacco is reading near 2600 to 2700 -- previously I recall the up-shift to another gear occuring much faster and revs dropping back to 2200-2400rpm

This is the vehicle I have wanted for a long time - despite often heard stories of reliability horror. I am a tad nervous at the moment - and would welcome to hear if anyone else is having similar experience.

dk

[Graeme]

DK,
Has the vehicle had a service recently? There have been software updates that prevent torque converter lockup and gear upshifts when cold which may account for your observed change in gearbox behaviour. I noticed it quite early with my 3.0 D4 and the owner of a 2007 D3 also noticed it after a recent service.

[dk09]

Thanks Graeme,

No - it hasn't had a service yet.

First one was due at 24k or November - which ever came first.

The upshifts are a concern, but not as much as the short slipping from take-off (has happened twice this week)

Hard for me to confirm - but it also feels like there is some slippage between gear changes at 20-30km/h (I am guessing from 2nd to 3rd or 3rd to 4th)

[Celtoid]

Hey DK,

My 2009 D4 SE is doing exactly the same thing, by the sounds of it.

I've over 40K on mine though. It's been back to LR twice and they keep 'flashing' the ECU which certainly helps but doesn't work permenantly.

Under low load...as in accelerating slowly....the gear change is fine 9 times out of 10. From moderate acceleration onwards, the change between 1st and 2nd is bad...ranging from a slight slip or shudder to a really definate slip, so bad the passenger can feel it. This occurs more often than not.

I'm taking it back to them again soon.

It ****es me off as this gearbox is not LR and has a reputation for being bullet-proof......:mad:

Cheers,

Kev.

[dk09]

Hi,


The trans doesn't appear to change up to a higher gear as "fast" as it previously did when travelling between 50 -60kms. i,e at 50kmh ish the tacco is reading near 2600 to 2700 -- previously I recall the up-shift to another gear occuring much faster and revs dropping back to 2200-2400rpm


dk

Above should have read 1600/1700rpm not 2600/2700. Double checked when driving today. RPM drops back to 1200-1400

Thanks for the feedback Kev

Will be speaking with LR RSN

dk

[Beerenton]

Hi all

My D3 is in for some work today (LR specialist, not a dealer), and after 95k they are *strongly* recommending the trans fluid change and pan swap. They took a sample of the fluid and said it was jet black.

Any ideas on whether cracking the "sealed for life" trans would have any impact on warranty, if the trans decided to blow after it was done? I've got another 6 months or 5k left until the factory warranty expires.

Cheers.

[bbyer]

I am a real fan of changing the oil; also the change to a metal pan is a good idea, but in Canada, not as easy to actually get done as in Australia.

I am a little puzzled as to how your independent determined the tranny oil was black unless they undid one of the plugs as there is no dipstick like a "normal" automatic transmission. The oil probably should be black and I assumed it smelled OK - that is my test of trouble or not. The real education is when the plastic pan is pulled and one examines the metal filing goo clinging to the two magnets. On mine, it was sort of a thick paste on both magnets, but fortunately, no chunks.

Nothing bad should happen in then next 5,000 km as I assume that will happen in less than six months so three more months or so on the factory oil should be no big deal. If it is, then may your tranny fail quickly please.

When I did my oil change at about 130,000 km, (five years), the fuel mileage improved about 2 litres/100 km on my 4.4 litre V8 petrol engine.

As such, I will get the cost of the oil change back within a year in saved fuel costs. I also got improved acceleration and the shifting remained good - it was smooth before I might add; hence my surprise when the fuel economy improved as all seemed well.

The link below is to a number of files I have collected re the ZF6HP26X tranny that is on our 3's.

DISCO3.CO.UK Photo Gallery - ZF 6HP26 Automatic Transmission in LR3 (http://www.disco3.co.uk/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5059)

[Tote]

An interesting dilemma you have there. If the transmission is not slipping the oil change may delay the inevitable and you may not have problems in the future. The alternative would be to get the dealer to do the work and then you would have a documented transmission problem inside the warranty period that you could use in the event that a transmission replacement was needed in the future outside the warranty period.
Or you could buy an extended warranty and hope it would cover the cost of the transmission replacement should it be necessary.

FWIW I would probably go to the dealer with a sample of the oil and ask them what their approach to fixing the problem would be and document their response. Unless the box is slipping they probably will not even investigate further than saying that the transmission is sealed for life......

Regards,
Tote

[Celtoid]

Hey dk,

Took my truck back to LR again.....I'd had an interesting couple of weeks...

I'm one of the poor souls who had a naughty turbo on their 3.0L TD.....my car got split and the turbo was replaced.


Shortly afterwards I started having all sorts of erroneous faults that seemed to be of an electrical nature:

A sharp cracking noise (like amplified static) coming through the car speakers...regardless of what was turned on or otherwise.
My fuel guage stopped working for a few minutes.
Headlights flickering in sympathy with the cracking noise.
And finally an engine that cranked but wouldn't start.
I'd booked the car into LR to get these things and the transmission issue looked at (again). I assumed that the electrical issues were caused by something not being reconnected properly. By this stage I assumed the transmission had a mechanical issue.

It was the morning I was due to take the car in that it wouldn't start. It finally did after quite a few attempts.

Got a call from LR.....my battery was 'flat'....well sort of....didn't have the capacity to run all the 'stuff' properly, thus causing all the weird issues.

They'd also had a few bulletins regarding software patches that were needed to fix sound system static, a few other issues......and you guessed it....transmission issues!!!

The long and the short....new battery fitted (under warranty), patches downloaded ....and it's freakin awesome......:)

No more glitches and the transmission and engine are running like they were when new!

Get your car into LR mate......:D

Cheers,

Kev.

[101RRS]

Does this fit our gearboxes?? ZF 6 Speed Automatic Ford Aston Martin & Jaguar ZF6HP26 Transmission Service kit | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ZF-6-Speed-Automatic-Ford-Aston-Martin-Jaguar-ZF6HP26-Transmission-Service-kit-/140611151832?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item20bd13e7d8)

If so would seem to be a good buy.

Garry

[outasight]

According to the LR D4 brochure, the 2.7 is fitted with a ZF HP26.

The 3.0 are listed as ZF HP28.

Regards,

Les.

[justinc]

Does this fit our gearboxes?? ZF 6 Speed Automatic Ford Aston Martin & Jaguar ZF6HP26 Transmission Service kit | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ZF-6-Speed-Automatic-Ford-Aston-Martin-Jaguar-ZF6HP26-Transmission-Service-kit-/140611151832?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item20bd13e7d8)

If so would seem to be a good buy.

Garry

HiGary,
Unfortunately to fit that pl;astic pan (IE it is the original one), you need to lift the engine off its mounts etc etc, hence the change to seperate filter and steel pan which only necessitates the undoing of the rear trans mount and lifyting trans uo against the floorpan in order to remove and refit. Saves about half a day!!!:(
Steel pan kit and filter with gasket etc are up to $440 but can be found for less by the looks of it.

JC
JC

[outasight]

Same seller has steel pan kit ...
ZF 6 Speed Automatic Range Rover ZF6HP26 Steel Sump Conversion Service Kit | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ZF-6-Speed-Automatic-Range-Rover-ZF6HP26-Steel-Sump-Conversion-Service-Kit-/140611155008)

Regards,

Les.

[justinc]

Same seller has steel pan kit ...
ZF 6 Speed Automatic Range Rover ZF6HP26 Steel Sump Conversion Service Kit | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ZF-6-Speed-Automatic-Range-Rover-ZF6HP26-Steel-Sump-Conversion-Service-Kit-/140611155008)

Regards,

Les.

Thanks Les, may have to have a chat to my supplier then about prices:(, Or start getting customers to buy off ebay themselves and get me to fit them then!:o

JC

[101RRS]

Thanks JC - misread the original ebay post to be the steel sump - second link by Les is still a good buy though. Interesting the seller is recommending a change at 60,000km instead of Landrovers 240,000km and indicates even ZF says a max of 100,000km - I wonder where Landrover gets their service interval from. Even talks about different oils - more information in an ebay ad than you get out of your dealer - maybe they need to have a read of the ad.

My car is coming up to 60,000 and I just intend to pull the drain plug and let as much oil as I can out and then refill (maybe 5 litres) to freshen the oil and at 96,000km get a full service and steel pan and get a megaflush done.

After that change 5 litres or so of oli every 24,000km and another full service and megaflush in another 96,000km.

Garry

[Ean Austral]

Think I will have to order that kit when I get home..I see the oil also in 1 ltr bottles, didn't see a price tho..did I miss it, or not?

The plastic piece he says to cut, does it matter where its cut, or is it criticle for the next filter element fit?


Many thanks

Cheers Ean

[Owl]

..I see the oil also in 1 ltr bottles, didn't see a price tho..did I miss it, or not?

The plastic piece he says to cut, does it matter where its cut, or is it criticle for the next filter element fit?



$55/L
ZF Lifeguard 6 Transmission Fluid Ford Falcon Territory | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ZF-Lifeguard-6-Transmission-Fluid-Ford-Falcon-Territory-/140581744633?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item20bb532ff9)

I believe the idea is that you cut the filter neck off the plastic pan so that the pan can be removed without dismantling the whole car. Then remove the cut off bit before fitting the new filter and pan.

[bbyer]

I one is going to remove the plastic pan/filter combo, and replace it with the separate oil filter and metal pan, that is when breaking off the vertical plastic "pipe" has some merit.

The reason one has to lift the engine/tranny is to get enough vertical space between the tranny body and that frame cross member to get the old plastic pan out, (if one does not break off the vertical pipe), and more significantly, the new plastic one in with the pipe intact.

If one is installing the metal pan, then one does not need to lift the tranny as one can break off the pipe to remove the plastic pan and the metal pan will slide in, (not easily), utilizing the existing space. That is one of the advantages of the metal pan changeover. Also the metal pan uses shorter pan attachment screws, (21 of them), do do not reuse the longer plastic pan screws.

Regardless of pan, one has to make certain that the vertical oil pipe seal located at the top of the vertical tube comes out when the vertical tube is removed. Two seals is not twice as good.

Below is a link to some material I have found on our ZF 6HP26X transmission. Note the use of the letter X. That is apparently what ZF calls our tranny whereas Land Rover tends to not use the X.

DISCO3.CO.UK Photo Gallery - ZF 6HP26 Automatic Transmission in LR3 (http://www.disco3.co.uk/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5059)

[DiscoMick]

Just curious if your references to changing the transmission oil refer only to the gearbox or include the transfer case?

[bbyer]

The whole discussion re of changing oil, (or not), in the drive train stems from the Land Rover recommendations which for the most part tend to be seen/viewed/interpreted as never.

My view is that LR does not wish to pay for any oil changes to anything while the vehicle is either under lease or under warranty. In the case of the engine, they make it simple - free oil changes for a while and then you pay; the rest of the drive train, the inference is "for life". Land Rovers interpretation of when life ends is not before the end of the warranty or lease.

In brief, yes, change the oil in the transfer case and the differentials. As to how often, good question. If you ford creeks or live in a high humidity area, the differentials seem to absorb water somehow, hence maybe if not every year, then every couple of years. Re the transfer case, maybe the same but at least when you do the tranny; and the tranny, well that is what this thread is all about. As with all, others may have very different views.

[GdayMate]

Hi All,

In The Verandah (click link below) the steel pan kit and oil are available to members at a discount from Rhys. Check-it out.....

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/verandah/154809-land-rover-range-rover-automatic-transmission-service-kits-fluids.html

Cheers.....

[CaverD3]

I believe the idea is that you cut the filter neck off the plastic pan so that the pan can be removed without dismantling the whole car. Then remove the cut off bit before fitting the new filter and pan.

Dont cut off the pipe from the new pan, you will noy get circulation through the filter. If you cut off install metal pan with separate filtre as bbyer says.

The old pan can be removed and new one fitted by unbolting the transmission hydraulic unit (forgotten what it is called) instaed if unbolting the transmission and one engine mount.

[Argonaut]

Hi all,

I've been researching about purchasing a D3 and I noticed the issue of the transmission pan & oil changeover. So I thought I'd give a few places a call to see what they charge. A well known LR service provider in the southern suburbs of Melbourne quoted $1040 for a change of pan & oil and transmission specialist in the Northern suburbs of Melbourne quoted $880. Now I know that's quite expensive to service a transmission after getting used to paying about half of what they charge on my current car. What got me concerned is when I asked the transmission place how good the boxes are, honestly she says to me they are no good, they are unreliable and expensive to fix if broken, in the vicinity of $5k. Now I know this was the girl at reception, and she may have over exaggerated things, but overall what is peoples opinion of it and apart from the stories of shudder are they that bad. My theory is if you look after something and maintain it properly you should hopefully not have any problems, is it the same with the ZF boxes ?

Cheers
Argonaut

[101RRS]

There is nothing wrong with the gearboxes as long as they are serviced in accordance with ZF's recommendations and not Landrovers.

These boxes are fitted in a number of different makes of vehicles.

Cheers

Garry

[msoukkar]

Since my D3 has been getting the shudders I thought I'd post some of my research on a new thread rather than generating heaps of posts on the FAQ. Happy to be corrected on any points that other people know of, maybe we'll all learn something. So to kick it off....

Transmission is a ZF 6HP26 unit. Is currently fitted to BMWs, Ford Falcons and Territories, Audis and Jaguars to name a few

The transmission has been around in one form or another since 2001 when it was introduced on a 7 series

ZF have designated the transmission as "sealed for life" but a more accurate description of this strategy would be "sealed until the warranty period is over"

The Land Rover variant uses a plastic sump which has an inbuilt filter which is a throwaway with the sump at service time. The filter also means that the engine has to be lifted from one mount to fit the new sump. ZF make a steel sump part number 1068 103 820 01 Kit Sump. an alloy sump may also be available ex Ford. These variants do not have the filter inbuilt and can be fitted / removed without lifting the engine.

Fluid for these transmissions is ZF LifguardFluid6 part number S671 090 253 for a 20 litre drum. Dealers charge $78 a litre, other repairers less but it's still expensive.
Other alternatives may be Motospecs Part # 749626, Ford RI-28, Shell ATF M 1375.4, Mercon SP XT-6-QSP Ford have a RRP of $48 a litre for their oil.


The design of the 6hp26 is different in that it does not have bands but rather clutch packs and the transmission is completely electronically controlled. The torque converter clutch is modulated in that it can be engaging and releasing at a rapid rate to allow a transition between fully locked up and disengaged. The torque converter clutch can lock up in all gears

Due to these transmissions having no service schedule they develop a "shudder" that is similar to driving over a ripple strip embedded in the white line at the edge of a road. This is caused by the degredation of the oil and causes wear to the torque converter clutch and potentially damages the rest of the transmission through contamination and overheating.

It would seem that 50,000KM would be a good time to change the transmission fluid to delay the fault above happening.

Sport mode reduces the shudder substantially, possibly because the transmission is more likely to kick down a gear in response to increased load rather than modulating the torque converter to allow some slip.

There are reports from the UK of coolant contamination from the transmission cooler in the radiator becoming porous. It may be worthwhile to consider testing old fluid for glycol as a transmission flush will not help for long.

It's NOT a "Land Rover Problem".... Googling the transmission model number brings up lots of tales of woe from owners of these transmissions that have failed due to lack of oil changes.

When off road in steep country it is preferable to lock the vehicle in a suitable gear to reduce heat load on the transmission rather than leaving it in drive.

A new transmission will cost you in the vicinity of $7000 so regular oil changes make sense.

Thats all I can think of for now, any other thoughts welcome.
RMP, maybe when we have a complete list we could revise and put in the FAQ?

Regards,
Tote
Need help finding engine for 2002 freelander V6 can anyone help

[101RRS]

Need help finding engine for 2002 freelander V6 can anyone help

Not much point posting is this section as it is for the Range Rover Sport/Disco 3/4 section.

Trying posting in the Freelander 1 section.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/freelander-1/

Garry

[lpj]

Not much point posting is this section as it is for the Range Rover Sport/Disco 3/4 section.

Trying posting in the Freelander 1 section.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/freelander-1/

Garry

Or is it the wrong section?
:p
If you could shoe-horn a 3.0l SDV6 into the Freelander, you'd have an awesome machine!!

[Rich84]

TYK500050 TRANSMISSION FLUID 1LTR | Range Rover Sport 2005>: Transmission | shop | www.lrseries.com | L. R. Series (http://www.lrseries.com/shop/product/listing/17026/3964/1/TYK500050-TRANSMISSION-FLUID-1LTR.html)

I bought 15 L from LR Series in the UK to do my own megaflush style gearbox service. It's cheap @ 14 pounds/L. That and a new oil pump was $500 delivered.

I will be doing (at the same time)
-megaflush
-ATF cooler (bypass radiator cooler so eliminate the glycol ingress possibility)
-Steel pan + filter

[jarlel]

Hi all,

I hope you can welcome a Norwegian guy that needs some assistance https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/04/1146.jpg
None on the Norwegian forum have experience with the steel sump, so hopefully someone here can assist.

I just bought the steel pan conversion kit (BMW X5 type) for the zf6hp26 and have a question related to something i found on a forum somewhere about reduced fluid capacity with the steel pan:

"Keep in mind that you are losing app. 1 liter on your transmission fluid capacity. (More frequent fluid changes required) The fluid level has to be checked with the overflow plug in the pan, not the trans housing anymore. If the filler plug in the housing is used to adjust fluid level, the trans is overfilled by app. 1 liter and will overheat-fail".

Where is the logic? It says I'll loose 1 liter but will overfill with 1 liter if I adjust fluid level with the filler plug in the housing?

Is this correct for the steel sump pan? What is the correct filler hole and fluid level check procedure?
Don't want to put this on without knowing for sure what is the correct procedure...

There is a white plastic thing attached to the top of the oil drain plug - I assume this should be there?

Thanks in advance for any help!

[Rich84]

Even if it is true that you are adding an extra litre of sump capacity to the trans, you're hardly going to overheat it with that extra fluid. If anything it'd be the opposite. As long as you keep the fluid level to where it should be by using the fill plug and following the ZF procedure (which has been documented many times) there should be no problems.

[CaverD3]

Your information about ATF capacity seems to be incorrect. AFAIK the capacity is the same. The only difference the filtre which can be changed without undoing engone and transmission bolts or undoing the valve block. No one has had any isues with this modification that I know of. I thought the level was checked at the filler plug but not certain of that.

[Rich84]

Yep, level checked at the filler plug with the engine on, air con on and fluid temp up to 35-40deg C.

[bbyer]

Yep, level checked at the filler plug with the engine on, air con on and fluid temp up to 35-40deg C.

The fluid temperature is what determines the correct quantity. Cold oil at a given level could be too much oil, too hot hot at the same level, too little.

As to how you measure fluid temperature, some use those infrared thermometers aimed at the bottom of the metal pan but I think the guys with experience just go by experience - they know what is correct, and that is the tough part - getting the experience - that takes years.

As to oil quantity, I have heard of it but do not know. What I do know is the metal pan takes 21 shorter Torx screws than the plastic pan so make certain the kit has the shorter screws.

Below is a link to a number of files related to the tranny and the pan change options. A picture in one of the files shows that white plastic "wing' you refer to - and yes it should be there. If I recall correctly, it has something to do with ZF's recommended fill procedure. You use some kind of pump to get the fluid uphill and into the tranny pan thru the "drain" hole. (I think I got that right.) I also think one of the files shows that procedure.

DISCO3.CO.UK Photo Gallery - ZF 6HP26 Automatic Transmission in LR3 (http://www.disco3.co.uk/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5059)

[bbyer]

Yep, level checked at the filler plug with the engine on, air con on and fluid temp up to 35-40deg C.

The fluid temperature is what determines the correct quantity. Cold oil could be too much oil, too hot hot, too little.

As to how you measure fluid temperature, some use those infrared thermometers but I think the guys with experience just go by experience - they know what is correct, and that is the tough part - getting the experience - that takes years.

As to oil quantity, I have heard of it but do not know. What I do know is the metal pan takes 21 shorter Torx screws than the plastic pan so make certain the kit has the shorter screws.

Below is a link to a number of files related to the tranny and the pan change options. A picture in one of the files shows that white plastic "wing' you refer to - and yes it should be there. If I recall correctly, it has something to do with ZF's recommended fill procedure. You use some kind of pump to get the fluid uphill and into the tranny pan thru the "drain" hole. (I think I got that right.) I also think one of the files shows that procedure.

DISCO3.CO.UK Photo Gallery - ZF 6HP26 Automatic Transmission in LR3 (http://www.disco3.co.uk/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=5059)

[jarlel]

Thanks everyone :-)

Then I will:

*Check the level by using the filler hole (temperature from my HawkEye)
*Leave the white plastic thing as it is
*Not worry about changed fluid level :-)

[Rich84]

I picked up my trans pan and filter kit yesterday from my local auto trans shop. He asked me how I was going to check the level so I explained each step. He said getting the trans to the absolute correct temperature was not too much of an issue here in Australia since we have a warmer ambient and the temperature was more of an issue in colder climates. He said when they do Falcons etc with the 6HP they basically do a cold fill, then turn it on, top it off, run through the gears, top off again and that's it.

He also recommended getting an auxiliary cooler in place of the radiator cooler and specifically recommended against the cheaper ones as they can cause a drop in the oil pressure.

[samnt650]

Hello, my D3 received the metal pan upgrade. Now its time for me to do another transmission oil change. With the old plastic pan, there was a drain plug, but not on the metal pan. Does anyone have a good idea how to drain the pan without taking an "oil bath"?

[Rich84]

Remove your top intake piping, remove visco fan and cowling, put intake piping back on, remove the inlet pipe for the auto trans cooler (it's the top 1/2" pipe going into the passenger's side of the main radiator, get a helper to turn the car on while you hold that hose into a 3L milk container.

Fill the container, turn the car off.

Be warned, it's pretty high pressure!!

This way you can drain enough of the fluid to drop the pan without it going absolutely everywhere (which it would otherwise, seeing as the correct trans fluid level is above the pan).

[bbyer]

I thought that white plastic thing on the inside was not only a fill port but also a drain port - you have to use some sort of hooked suction device but ....

http://www.disco3.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/15405/ZF_Transmissions_metal_pans_magnets_and_no_magnets .pdf

[Rich84]

:eek: never heard that one before, you'd have a time getting ~3L that the pan holds out of the filler port that way...? You flat out couldn't do it with pump/sucker I have.

[101RRS]

Hang on - I have been under the illusion that there was a drain plug in the metal pan and from the recent comments I take that not to be the case.

I thought the whole point of the metal pan was to make changing the oil and filter easier.

I will be getting a metal pan before too long - before I unstall it should I drill a hole at a convenient place and get a proper drain and plug welded in??

Garry

[Rich84]

I would probably think very hard about doing that garry... Mine definitely doesn't have one.

[101RRS]

Rich,

The plastic pan has a drain plug so I would have thought the metal one would have also. Do you have a ZF metal pan or some knock off??

In fact I just spoke the ZF Australia and they said the steel pan for the D3/D4/RRS and BMW X5 (same pan) has a drain plug but the steel pan for the Falcon and Territory does not. I am thinking your supplier has given you the wrong steel pan.

Garry

[Balanda Chris]

discovery 3 surging problem fixed
Hi everyone, have read a few threads about the surging problem with some of the Discovery 3 2.7 TD vehicles. I own a 2009 Discovery 3 S and had the surging problem. After reading the threads of others and seeking advice from 'The Rover Specialists' in Darwin I had my transmission serviced and torque converter flushed. Probably paid too much but they replaced the sump plate swith a metal ZF plate, zf oil and replaceable filter. Problem solved. No more surging and they recommend another srvice in 40,000 K's. My Discovery 3 has 117,000 kms on it.

The above is the thread I placed in January 2013. I have now done over 123000 ks and all is good. No shudder or surge at all. On and off I have been towing a 20" van. No I am very happy.

[Rich84]

It's possible that I have the pan for the Falcon or Territory over the X5 pan then I guess?

Either way it does fit, has the magnets, etc. The drain thing is an inconvenience more than anything, as I can drain a set amount through the oil cooler.

[CaverD3]

Or just use a large catch tray.

[samnt650]

GarryCol

>In fact I just spoke the ZF Australia and they said the steel pan for the D3/D4/RRS and BMW X5 (same pan) has a drain plug but the steel pan for the Falcon and Territory does not.

Do you know which model year X5 your contact (ZF) was referring to?

[101RRS]

Do you know which model year X5 your contact (ZF) was referring to?

Sorry no - is there a difference in the ZF6HP26 gearboxes fitted to the X5.

[samnt650]

Both x5 (e53 and e70) are fitted with 6sp. I never saw one with the metal pan and I owned both models in past. I know x3 share the same gearbox and don't know if it had metal or plastic pan

[101RRS]

Maybe the same as Landrover - supplied with plastic pans from the factory and later people replace them with the metal product.

[samnt650]

I was able to drain & fill the transmission only using the filler plug, and with help of my Mityvac. In all I got apx 3qt of fluid exchanged.

It was real PITA to have the heat shield bracket put back in. Do I really need this piece on the truck? I know the v8 BMW x5 dont have heat shield. That transmission work just fine sandwiched between 2 cats.

[Graeme]

Hang on - I have been under the illusion that there was a drain plug in the metal pan and from the recent comments I take that not to be the case.The pan I bought from ZF Sydney has a drain plug and a label stating only to use BMW oil.

[CaverD3]

Heat will also dry out the front driveshaft so you may want to keep it if it protects other parts.

[samnt650]

This is the part # I got from ZF, for the steel pan WITHOUT drain plug
Steel pan 1068 203 042

[White D4]

I have just returned from a 2000km trip from Sydney to Brisbane towing a 3.5t van and the box developed a shudder in drive at speeds from 60km to 100km but when moved to sport mode it went away. Feels worse with the van off the car.

Have booked it into LR for a service, will be telling them to change the oil, car is at 90,000km and performed faultlessly till now.

Cheers

[gasman]

If its out of warranty, dont take it to your LR dealer. They have no idea about Autos.
If you are in Sydney, take it to Graeme Coopers at St Peters and have a service performed there.
They will have a look at everything that maybe causing the shudder, just not change the oil!

[CaverD3]

Resetting then box and calibrating the transfer case can help sometimes.

[redoutback]

My Disco 3 used to shudder and the rpm was up and down under the load.
I've been told that my tranny needs to be replaced with reconditioned one (min$5,500 to $12,000).
After reading a forum about Dr. Tranny in Disco3.com, I ordered 2 of them on ebay delivered to Sydney total cost of less than $30.
The result? - MAGIC, MIRACLE!
As soon as I added 2 tubes of Dr Tranny through the upper tranny cooling hose, all the shudder is gone!
It's been 3 weeks (2,000km) since I added Dr Tranny and no problem I have ever since.
If you have torque converter problem like shudder/judder, try with Dr Tranny first.

[White D4]

Hi all,

Well had the box flushed and filled at Graeme Coopers in Sydney, shudder GONE.

The tranny fluid that came out was disgusting, and the price was a third of the cost than the Land Rover dealer.

Graeme Ccooper recommend a tranny oil change every 40,000km will be doing that from now on.

Cheers

[DiscoMick]

Dr Tranny looks like interesting stuff.

Dr. Tranny Instant Shudder Fixx (http://www.lubegard.com/~/C-230/Dr.+Tranny+Instant+Shudder+Fixx)

[KOOS BEST]

I have had terrible shudder ,were quoted I require new torque converter done a double flush with the OEM oil , still had a shudder.
I flushed again , filled with Fuchs ATF 4400 and added 2 x tubes of Dr Tranny, have NONE, NOTHING , ZERO shudder for the last 28 000km.
I tour in Southern Africa towing a trailer and tow boats on the beach , it is as smooth as new.

Dr Tranny WORKS!!!!!!!!!

[smwilk]

I had my transmission serviced today @ 130000, last time at 88000. Same auto shop but this time they put GW syntrans in it. I should have asked first but i didnt because they used lifeguard 6 last time. The are well regarded. i queried them and he said they switched from lifeguard 6 about 9 months ago without issue. ATF was $108! I googled it and seems lots of the falcon guys are saying it is good. I have to say iam nervous. Box is very smooth though this time. I couldn't notice any change at the 88000 service. My box has not has any problems and I tow a 2.5T van. If If it does develop problems I will now wonder about the oil.

[101RRS]

Not an issue if your service people are prepared to warrant your gearbox against failure.

For the price you paid for ATF I assume you only got a basic ATF change and not the full on change.

When looking at the GW website, I did not see Lifeguard 6 on the list of oils it could replace.

I certainly hope that the GW ATF proves to be Ok but at this stage it is a bit too early for me to switch.

Please let us know how you go.

Cheers

Garry

[Rich84]

If your shop has put ATF in the box you may want to think about getting them to change it back to lg6 quickly. It may not cause issues immediately but they WILL develop and by the time they do it will be too late.

Penrite SIN ATF (now ATF FS) was specified by Penrite for this box, but check their website and they now say it is specifically not for use in ZF 6 and 8 speed boxes. Friction, lubrication, pressure and temperature characteristics of LG6 fluid is designed specially for the 6HPs!

Using ATF can causes issues with the valve operation, clutch operation and torque converter operation.

When I bought my car I did a full ATF oil change and used Penrite ATF FS as generally it is one of the highest spec ATFs on the market.

Luckily for me, my gearbox started acting up almost immediately and I only drove 150km on it. The issues included:

-increased noise and vibration (not shudder) :BigCry:
-shudder got WORSE :BigCry:
-grinding noise at 70 and 100km/h :BigCry:
-torque converter 'squawk' on gear changes (sounds like a squeaking noise) :BigCry:

Needless to say I went to the nearest Ford dealer and bought 8ltr of LG6 (at $60 per litre :BigCry: )

That fixed those issues apart from the shudder, which is now mostly gone after a megaflush and a tube of doc tranny :)

This is in no way an attack at Penrite, I believe their product is good, it's just not for this gearbox. I believe most LR specialists will tell you the exact same thing. I have spoken to a couple about it myself.

At the end of the day, keep your eyes and ears open for any change of operation in the box!

[smwilk]

I spoke to Gulf Western today and they confirmed syntrans is suitable for ZF6. Apparently is states so on the label. He said it has been used without any problem in ZF6 for 2 years now. He said they would be worried about legal liability if it wasn't right. He said ZF will not certify anyone's ATF for their product but ZF have confirmed the oil contains the right additives. I can't find anything negative on the ford forums and it appears a number of tranny shops are now using it. After 300km the box is certainly behaving normally and the shifts are much smoother since the service. I am kicking myself for not specifying LG6 but iam feeling more confident. Keep ya all posted.

[719jak]

I have done some research and have found the ZHP26 auto service kit for $44 inc from Garmax part number KFS981 .They are at 2 Aldinga St Brendale Brisbane 3881 1692:)

[vbrab]

Found this site selling 20 litres genuine oil at a fair price.
Pick up only.

ZF Transmission Fluid 83220142516 83220142516 6HP26 6HP26A 6HP19 6HP15 6HP19 in Melbourne, VIC | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ZF-transmission-fluid-83220142516-83220142516-6HP26-6HP26A-6HP19-6HP15-6HP19-/141131066211?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item20dc112b63)

[101RRS]

Last time I checked it was about $100 cheaper direct from ZF.

Garry

[rocmic]

I bought individual litre bottles at the end of October for $32 per litre from Motospecs which comes to a similar price
Edit, just saw garrycol post, zf were extremely reluctant to give me a price,let alone sell it to me. which was a pain since they are 5 minutes from where I live. Motospecs may well be cheaper for drums than i paid for individual bottles

[CaverD3]

just got 20L from ZF.
Doing a double change on the D3.
Anyone interested in the extra?

[101RRS]

zf were extremely reluctant to give me a price,let alone sell it to me.

They gave me their price and delivery over the phone no issues as well as the price of their steel pan kit.

[101RRS]

just got 20mL from ZF.


Crikey 20ml will not go far ;)

[CaverD3]

They have become very reluctant to supply direct except to trade.
I am an existing customer so am already on their system.

[sheerluck]

Crikey 20ml will not go far ;)

Four teaspoons worth? That's a small gearbox!

[CaverD3]

I think that should be about the amount of Dr Tranny I will use. :D

[vbrab]

I usually buy from ZF as well, and been happy with price, but lately they have been flicking customers off to retail "bandits' who want $60 a litre, (even for a 20L drum rate).
Sent a mate to ZF (WA) today ,and they sent him to bandit who wanted $1600 for a 20l drum with a pan/filter/gasget set (with $240 delivery).
So that made the Ebay option look almost reasonable.
Just thought I'd put it up there in case others are getting rude quotes on a drum of fluid.

[Tote]

Bloody thieves, $19.95 a litre from roverparts.com in the US. Might be worth the freight.........
Transmission Fluid ZF Lifeguard 1 Liter Or 1.06 Quarts (LRN13754ZF Same Fit As Part # LRN13754) - Land Rover fluids & oils from Atlantic British (http://www.roverparts.com/Parts/LRN13754ZF.cfm)

Regards,
Tote

[gedaso]

I just tried doing a dummy checkout of 20 litres from that link, and got a popup saying that it wasn't available for export :(

Anyone had recent success buying direct from ZF in Sydney, as a retail customer (not trade) ?

[Redback]

I just tried doing a dummy checkout of 20 litres from that link, and got a popup saying that it wasn't available for export :(

Anyone had recent success buying direct from ZF in Sydney, as a retail customer (not trade) ?

Give them a call, pretty sure they sell to the public.

14 Lidco Street
Arndell Park, NSW 2148

96795555


Baz.

[rocmic]

Some on the forum have had succes buying directly from ZF. I asked them last year and they told me they no longer sell retail. they pointed me at Motospecs as an agent. Got a reasonable price from them.
cheers
Mike

[letherm]

I just tried doing a dummy checkout of 20 litres from that link, and got a popup saying that it wasn't available for export :(

Anyone had recent success buying direct from ZF in Sydney, as a retail customer (not trade) ?

Just a thought but it might be worth following up.

There are services available where you can buy from the US via a dummy US address so to speak. The US companies concerned will accept the goods from the US business you're dealing with and forward them on to you in Australia. They do charge a fee of course but I believe it's not huge. Essentially the company you're buying from believes you're a US resident because of the address you quote which is the intermediaries address.

Haven't had the need to use them myself but my brother has with no problems. Obviously you need to be aware of freight costs and allow for them in your cost analysis of whether it's worth buying OS. Classic example of this issue is Amazon not selling products to us because we're in Australia and this gets around that nicely.

Martin

[Tote]

I use borderlynx for that purpose but the risk that you run is that the shipping company might decide that transmission oil is hazardous goods and can't be shipped by air ( its not) and you would be stuck with oil you own in the US.

Regards
Tote

Sent from my Nexus 7 using AULRO mobile app

[RanOver]

Hi All

I had the transmission oil changed and new metal pan installed on the Disco 3 last week.

It now has some issues when changing gears, like if you roll up to traffic and then accelerate, it sometimes changes gear to what seems like neutral and then kicks into gear and accelerates.

In the morning, negotiating an up ramp out of our house, it will hesitate and not know what gear to change to, so you have to accelerate to keep it moving.

The mechanic has a RRS and seems to know what he is talking about.

He has assured me he used the specified oil, but I am not confident that he has pumped all of the old oil out when filling with new oil.

I do not want to damage auto box, but have to use the car daily to get to work.

What would you suggest as the next step?

I am going back to the mechanic latter today, as he wants to connect to computer to check for any messages.

Thanks

Steve

[catsman]

Just bought a d4 and in need of the transmission flush. Can anyone recommend a good ZF place in Melbourne other than Manuel and A + B as they are a looong way from me?

[gedaso]

I use borderlynx for that purpose but the risk that you run is that the shipping company might decide that transmission oil is hazardous goods and can't be shipped by air ( its not) and you would be stuck with oil you own in the US.

Regards
Tote

Sent from my Nexus 7 using AULRO mobile app
I've had a bit of a look around and found a lot of fleabay vendors in the US and UK who were quoting very attractive prices for the pan kits, LifeGuard 6 fluid, and airmail to Oz.

[Celtoid]

Just bought a d4 and in need of the transmission flush. Can anyone recommend a good ZF place in Melbourne other than Manuel and A + B as they are a looong way from me?






Why do you think the 'Sealed For Life' (;)) transmission of your D4 needs a flush? I've a first build D4 AUG 2009 and transmission is still good as gold.

[vbrab]

Can recommend Motospecs as good service/price, they have trans kits, price comparable to getting from ZF (who seem to be a bit reluctant to deal retail now). Motospecs Australia wide, easy to deal with, and have bought 3 x 20 litres and kits from them so far.

[rocmic]

Can recommend Motospecs as good service/price, they have trans kits, price comparable to getting from ZF (who seem to be a bit reluctant to deal retail now). Motospecs Australia wide, easy to deal with, and have bought 3 x 20 litres and kits from them so far.

X2
Cheers Mike

[LandyAndy]

How many litres required for a FULL fluid change?????
I have the same gearbox(I love it) on our Territory Turbo.Will look into a 20lt drum at the next Terror service so I have it on hand for later when I get a D3 or D4.
Cheers
Andrew

[vbrab]

Missed my chance the mid life crisis, now just have to grow old....and try and enjoy it

[Plane Fixer]

I have just had an auto service at 72,000k here in Coffs. I had a full flush and steel pan and filter and the cost was very reasonable.
It was not the same car when I drove away;the changes were so smooth that I did not notice them and I am very happy and was money well spent.

[EKK]

Hi

I originally joined about 8 years ago when I bought my 2006 Discovery 3. At the time I recall the big issue was the development of the new Mitchell Bros hitch. Which I bought and has given me good service.

After 8 years of generally happy motoring including towing a 2 tonne caravan, I need some advice on a couple of things, one of which is an auto service. My local LR service has suggested the car needs an auto service at a cost of just over $1000.

The car has done about 183K and been regularly serviced by the LR dealer. So presumably everything is up to date.

I would appreciate any advice on whether this work needs to be done.

PS If this reads like my knowledge of cars is limited to the fuel cap, then that would be pretty accurate! :)

Cheers

[Fitzy2011]

Absolutely have it done as it will extend the life dramatically and next time you need it serviced it will be easier and cheaper, as this first time means they will have to change the pan to a metal one from plastic.

[vbrab]

Hi EKK, If you have done over 80K and your dealer is unlikely to have done a trans service, then you should get it done. There is a dealer myth that the trans is "sealed for life". It is indeed sealed for "life" but that is very much shortened if you don't get a service.
I expect your oil will look quite black (as mine did when first done at 180k because dealer insisted "sealed for life"). About $1000 is about usual retail price if you have to get somebody to do it for you. Dearer first time, as have to include new steel pan. Make sure they use genuine ZF trans fluid.
I think others will suggest getting service after that about every 60-80k.

[101RRS]

The car has done about 183K and been regularly serviced by the LR dealer. So presumably everything is up to date.



If serviced correctly, the gearbox will have never been touched as the LR service interval is 254,000km or 10 years - which ever is the earlier.

Garry

[EKK]

Thanks for the advice.

Since I posted my question, I have noticed another problem. When I start the car and put it from park into drive or reverse for the first time, I sometimes can hear a short whirring noise. Any gear change after that, say from reverse to drive, is fine.

Happened 3 times yesterday when I started the car and put it into gear. The fourth time I started the car there was no noise when I put the car into gear.

A call to the service man seems in order although I would appreciate any thoughts

Cheers

[Epic pooh]

I too have a similar whirring noise. No idea what it is or if it is gearbox related - happens randomly with no rhyme or reason. Anyone else had experience with this kind of noise ?

[jonesy63]

If it is just after starting - it is probably the fan.

[vbrab]

Had a "noise' that usually came with morning start up, then faded when car got warm.
Seemed to come from near alternator, sounded bit like stiff bearing/squeak or such, but usually shut up after a few minutes running, did not return unless starting cold car .
Bought new alternator (for standby), made tool for removing fan, all just in case. But did not swap alternator, as no time.
2 months later, noticed small leak of water on ground under motor passengers side (not aircon).
Traced it back up to water pump dribbling out of hole designed to alert of seal failure. On pull down, found that the "noise" was likely the dried coolant that had been dripping for some time on to drive belts and such.
After replacing water pump, all noise stopped.
Perhaps run your hand around bottom of water pump. (my W pump was less than 12 months old when it failed)

[NavyDiver]

I have to disagree, sorry :) My D3 has done 97k without a shudder or any other transmission issues. I've never towed anything so maybe this towing is a qualifier re the timing of the ATF change?

Mine got a slight shudder at 180,000 km. I think the point of the 50,000km would avoid problems not how far we can go before we have them? My new gear box will have a pan and service at 50.

[Epic pooh]

Thanks guys - it does sound like it comes from the centre stack / glovebox general area. It starts when the car is started (sometimes) and goes for varying lengths of time (up to about 10secs) no rhyme or reason to it. Does sound fan like but is not influenced by having the blower on if the noise occurs. Does the fan cycle sometimes when the car is started (by its own inner logic) anyone know ? Anyone know if there are other fans under the dash ?

[vbrab]

My first chnage was at 180K, but NEVER towed anything in that 180k and changed sweetly, as had spent 99% of its life in top gear highway running. Fluid came out looking like black used diesel oil.
Now at 300k have done 2 more fluid/filter changes, and trans still changes sweetly.
Would still go with looking to change fluid at least by 80k.

[EKK]

Not sure if this is related to my problem but ...

My handbrake was making a similar whirring noise when I activated or released the handbrake. When I put the handbrake on there would be a whirr then a clunk. British Off Road gave the handbrake a service, in the hope that that would fix that problem. (The cost of the alternative was frightening)

The noise from the gear change sounded similar to this. So today I started the car, took the handbrake off and then put it into gear - no noise.

I did this a couple of times. Start the car - release the handbrake - select reverse or drive. No noise when I put the car into gear.

This afternoon, the whirr with the handbrake has returned. So when I release the handbrake I get the whirr-clunk but no gearbox noise. B*gger

I will try it over the weekend and see if I can replicate the noise. The problem is the noise is random.

I admit up front it might all be coincidental and my knowledge of cars is zilch. So this might make sense to someone.

Cheers

[shaunh]

im thinking we should up our service price! $1000!!! i know they're expensive but we've never charged that much even with genuine zf fluid and new pan

[Geedublya]

im thinking we should up our service price! $1000!!! i know they're expensive but we've never charged that much even with genuine zf fluid and new pan

What do you charge?

My quote is $600-700 with a new steel pan and genuine fluid.

$1000 does seem expensive however I think dealers are farming the job out and putting a margin on top.

[NavyDiver]

Not sure if this is related to my problem but ...

My handbrake was making a similar whirring noise when I activated or released the handbrake. When I put the handbrake on there would be a whirr then a clunk. British Off Road gave the handbrake a service, in the hope that that would fix that problem. (The cost of the alternative was frightening)

The noise from the gear change sounded similar to this. So today I started the car, took the handbrake off and then put it into gear - no noise....

Cheers

Handbrake is not related to the gear box at all. The hand brake is well covered in many posts. Try searching or look at threads like http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/127608-hand-brake-actuator-d3-squeal-bang.html or mine at http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/121148-d3-parking-brake-issue.html and DISCO3.CO.UK - View topic - How to - Rear discs/pads and EPB adjust (http://www.disco3.co.uk/forum/topic25409.html)

[EKK]

Thanks for the links, weakestlink.

I know the handbrake is not related to the gear box. I was just saying that the noise I got when I put the car into reverse or drive was similar to the noise I was getting when I applied or released the handbrake.

Cheers

[shaunh]

yep thats about on the mark 600-700

[Epic pooh]

Upon further investigation my buzzing seems to be related to ventilation system stepper motor / actuator for the various flaps that direct air up down etc. looks like fun.

Thanks for the comment jonsey - pointed my mind in the right direction. Now that I think I know what it is I think I'll continue to ignore it until it presents an issue (ie can't cool my balls in summer or warm my toes in winter haha) !

[jonesy63]

Hey Epic - the A/C stepper motor in the D3 was known for failing and making "farting" noises. :wasntme: Well, that's what I had to say to SWMBO when it was failing! :D

[Epic pooh]

Mine has been farting for years ... ! ... and I've been ignoring it because it looks a bit of bugger of a job to get my (not petite) hand in to lube it up so it farts more quietly.

Oh well, at least I think I got to the bottom of it (hopefully) and the only thing standing in the way of it being fixed is motivation ... I hadn't connected the farting and buzzing until your comment - a look in my logged faults seems to indicate stepper motor 'not happy'' !

Thanks again for the steer, really appreciate it !

[vbrab]

The $1000 quotes, seems to be a WA problem, possibly because of limited dealer options, and many others seems to take their lead from the dealers price. Have had trans fluid sellers suggest they were doing me a "special" favour, offering to sell 20 litres lifeguard 6 at over $900.
Went elsewhere of course.

[winaje]

The $1000 quotes, seems to be a WA problem
Not just WA, was quoted $1000 by A&B Transmissions in Dandenong to supply and fit a steel pan and refill with 6 litres of Lifeguard 6 :mad:

Spoke to Steve at Goulburn Valley Autos and was quoted $840 to supply and fit a steel pan, AND full flush with 12 litres of lifeguard 6, thats an extra 6 litres for $160 less...

I'm actually having the D3 taken to him and supplying my own oil, Nulon SYNATF, and he is S/F the steel pan and using my oil for $440. Full flush with the Nulon will cost me $680, plus will have enough oil left over to do SWMBO's Pug.

I spoke to a couple of the tech guys at Nulon for nearly an hour yesterday, firstly a chemical engineer, then a mechanical engineer. They described in detail how they have lab, bench and field tested the Nulon SYNATF in the 6HP26 box, the mech eng has been running it in his XR6T for 120k and sampled every 5 k, he states no noticeable chemical degradation yet. Also stated that they recommend changing the fluid at around 80k, including filter. They went into significant detail regarding viscosity at various temperatures in comparison with LG6, and how the box adjusts to the very slightly different oil.

I'm prepared to give it a try with the Nulon, and will report my experiences. Bear in mind that my box has 311k on it. Price difference is $31/L from the trans guy for LG6, vs $12/L in a 20L drum for the Nulon from Supercheap.

[Redback]

Thanks for the links, weakestlink.

I know the handbrake is not related to the gear box. I was just saying that the noise I got when I put the car into reverse or drive was similar to the noise I was getting when I applied or released the handbrake.

Cheers

My advice to you would be find a Land Rover specialist or transmisson specialist and have it done, chances are the Dealer won't do the pan or even put the correct oil in, if they actually do it at all.

I'm wary of Dealers, some do nothing at all and say they have, some only do part of the job, very hard to find a good Dealer these days.

Baz.

[101RRS]

I'm actually having the D3 taken to him and supplying my own oil, Nulon SYNATF,

Why would you be prepared to to risk a $4000-$8000 repair to your gearbox using untried oil to save a few $$$ in oil cost. Experiments with different oils on the Disco3UK forum have generally come to grief.

Do you have written advice from Nulon that they will warrant your gearbox against failure either now or in the future - sorry the risk is too great.

[winaje]

Why would you be prepared to to risk a $4000-$8000 repair to your gearbox using untried oil to save a few $$$ in oil cost. Experiments with different oils on the Disco3UK forum have generally come to grief.

Do you have written advice from Nulon that they will warrant your gearbox against failure either now or in the future - sorry the risk is too great.

Good questions.
First: I am advised that the oil is not untested, but has undergone years of lab/bench/field tests, that have been completed in the last year. They state that they have specifically tested a 50/50 mix of SYNATF and LG6, as the majority of users will do a service refill not a full flush, and have found that there is no degradation in transmission function or wear. They do recommend a complete replacement if possible, in line with ZFs suggestions.
Second: Someone has to take the risk and see if the strangehold of ZF/Shell can be broken. I have not seen any RECENT trials of Nulon SYNATF.
Third: I got my D3 for a stupidly cheap price and it's out of warranty, so I have less financial risk.
Fourth: I hate, really hate, getting gouged by a company, and if I can find a way to get the same result for 1/4 to 1/3 the price, I get a certain perverse pleasure in going out of my way to take business off the company that's exploiting us.
Fifth: I'm happy to change Nulon fluid at 50k @ $12/L, rather than change LG6 fluid at 100k @$48/L which is the cheapest I can buy it as a consumer.
Finally: I'm nuts.

I have not got a guarantee from Nulon, but really, is ANY company going to guarantee a 311k box? I do feel sufficiently confident in the experience of the guys who I spoke to though, to take the calculated gamble.

I'll let you know what happens, good or bad.

[ytt105]

Good on you. We all live in hope. I can see that the company that gets a compatible oil to market first will make a killing considering the number of cars now using that gearbox.

Sent from my ThL W8 using AULRO mobile app

[discotwinturbo]

My advice to you would be find a Land Rover specialist or transmisson specialist and have it done, chances are the Dealer won't do the pan or even put the correct oil in, if they actually do it at all. I'm wary of Dealers, some do nothing at all and say they have, some only do part of the job, very hard to find a good Dealer these days. Baz.

Southerns, my wa dealer, replaced mine at 60k with a steel pan for $1050 all up. I was happy to pay a little more, as I have complete trust/faith in my service manager.

Joe, the service manager, advised his clients to go with the steel pan conversion on every occasion, if it had not already been changed.

My oil test after being changed showed no issues at all.

Brett.....

[Marmoset]

Just rang up for a few quotes and the cheapest was just over $900! Pricing up the DIY options appears to be around $600. You'd be thinking that it's oil extracted from some reserve on Mars given the price of it!

The box on the disco 2 cost about $150 to service when I did that. But it was a simple beastie compared to the D3....

[sheerluck]

I've done similar to Will. It seems that Fuchs recommend their Titan ATF 4134, so I've bought 10l from Bursons for $95, and an aftermarket steel pan and filter kit for $175. I've also bought an aftermarket oil cooler for the tranny to be fitted at the same time for $80

That's a job for tomorrow night.

[winaje]

I've done similar to Will. It seems that Fuchs recommend their Titan ATF 4134, so I've bought 10l from Bursons for $95, and an aftermarket steel pan and filter kit for $175. I've also bought an aftermarket oil cooler for the tranny to be fitted at the same time for $80

That's a job for tomorrow night.

I'm interested in seeing your results. I've been told that it'll take about 120kms for the trans to adapt to the new oil, so be a bit patient after changing the oil.

Mine gets done next Tuesday.

[Epic pooh]

Trans ECU adaption should be reset when the oil is changed - so the trans will be learning about it's new config and relearning your driving style for a while. My experience is that it was smoother and quicker shifting as soon as the ATF change was done, it took several tanks of fuel to be back in touch with my driving style (I reset engine ECU adaption at the same time so that might have also been a factor).

[Rich84]

I've done similar to Will. It seems that Fuchs recommend their Titan ATF 4134, so I've bought 10l from Bursons for $95, and an aftermarket steel pan and filter kit for $175. I've also bought an aftermarket oil cooler for the tranny to be fitted at the same time for $80

That's a job for tomorrow night.



Sheerluck what are the physical characteristics of the Fuchs fluid? Does it look/smell like standard ATF, ie RED with a rubbery smell? The correct ZF fluid is amber in colour and smells a bit like cat ****. So basically it looks and smells like cat ****.

[Piddler]

My advice to you would be find a Land Rover specialist or transmisson specialist and have it done, chances are the Dealer won't do the pan or even put the correct oil in, if they actually do it at all.

I'm wary of Dealers, some do nothing at all and say they have, some only do part of the job, very hard to find a good Dealer these days.

Baz.


Yep,
I would go to a ZF specialist. They are listed on their website.

Cheers

[jonesy63]

FWIW, I just found a local workshop that has the Wynns ATF flushing machine and asked for a quote to replace plastic sump with metal, replace mechatronic seal and full flush with ZF Lifeguard Fluid 6. Quote was $900. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

[sheerluck]

Sheerluck what are the physical characteristics of the Fuchs fluid? Does it look/smell like standard ATF, ie RED with a rubbery smell? The correct ZF fluid is amber in colour and smells a bit like cat ****. So basically it looks and smells like cat ****.

Yep, light red/pink with a smell like burnt condoms.

No eau de cat at all. I'd rather have burnt condoms than cat ****.

[RHS58]

Good questions.
First: I am advised that the oil is not untested, but has undergone years of lab/bench/field tests, that have been completed in the last year. They state that they have specifically tested a 50/50 mix of SYNATF and LG6, as the majority of users will do a service refill not a full flush, and have found that there is no degradation in transmission function or wear. They do recommend a complete replacement if possible, in line with ZFs suggestions.
Second: Someone has to take the risk and see if the strangehold of ZF/Shell can be broken. I have not seen any RECENT trials of Nulon SYNATF.
Third: I got my D3 for a stupidly cheap price and it's out of warranty, so I have less financial risk.
Fourth: I hate, really hate, getting gouged by a company, and if I can find a way to get the same result for 1/4 to 1/3 the price, I get a certain perverse pleasure in going out of my way to take business off the company that's exploiting us.
Fifth: I'm happy to change Nulon fluid at 50k @ $12/L, rather than change LG6 fluid at 100k @$48/L which is the cheapest I can buy it as a consumer.
Finally: I'm nuts.

I have not got a guarantee from Nulon, but really, is ANY company going to guarantee a 311k box? I do feel sufficiently confident in the experience of the guys who I spoke to though, to take the calculated gamble.

I'll let you know what happens, good or bad.

You've thought it out.
Considered the options.
Weighed it up.
Kinda like what I do.
Reckon you'll be fine, the others will then follow suit...

[Rich84]

Yep, light red/pink with a smell like burnt condoms.

No eau de cat at all. I'd rather have burnt condoms than cat ****.

When I first bought my RRS I did a double flush with the best ATF I could get my hands on. Was a Penrite fully synth one. At the time I read that the ZF6HP26 needed ZF TE ML 11 spec oil, which the Penrite oil seemed to adhere to. Falcon/Territory owners with the 6HP26 all seemed to sing its praises too.


So once I'd done the flush it was great - extremely smooth shifts, still a slight burring noise from the torque converter that I only I could notice, but all good. UNTIL the trans started adapting to the new fluid. Then it started behaving quiet badly. Jerky shifts, audible squawking between gears and additional noise from the drivetrain. I bought 5 litres of Ford badged LG6 the next day and did two double flushes with the new fluid. After that, with the exception of the slight noise from the torque converter, the car drove perfectly and has done since, which is 50K down the track.


Not saying your experience will be like this, in fact I hope it won't be (I was worried I'd destroyed my trans for a while) but that was mine. I have since read on Penrite's website that their ATF is *Specifically* not for ZF 6 and 8 speed automatics.

[winaje]

Not saying your experience will be like this, in fact I hope it won't be (I was worried I'd destroyed my trans for a while) but that was mine. I have since read on Penrite's website that their ATF is *Specifically* not for ZF 6 and 8 speed automatics.

I hope it won't either, will know by next Tuesday night as the D3 will be driven 250kms before I get in it, so will know immediately if there's any issue.

I've been verbally advised specifically by Nulon that their SYNATF IS compatible with the 6HP26. The proof will be in the drivers seat, will report back in instalments lol...

[sheerluck]

When I first bought my RRS I did a double flush with the best ATF I could get my hands on. Was a Penrite fully synth one. At the time I read that the ZF6HP26 needed ZF TE ML 11 spec oil, which the Penrite oil seemed to adhere to. Falcon/Territory owners with the 6HP26 all seemed to sing its praises too.


So once I'd done the flush it was great - extremely smooth shifts, still a slight burring noise from the torque converter that I only I could notice, but all good. UNTIL the trans started adapting to the new fluid. Then it started behaving quiet badly. Jerky shifts, audible squawking between gears and additional noise from the drivetrain. I bought 5 litres of Ford badged LG6 the next day and did two double flushes with the new fluid. After that, with the exception of the slight noise from the torque converter, the car drove perfectly and has done since, which is 50K down the track.


Not saying your experience will be like this, in fact I hope it won't be (I was worried I'd destroyed my trans for a while) but that was mine. I have since read on Penrite's website that their ATF is *Specifically* not for ZF 6 and 8 speed automatics.

Rich, I've read enough on Disco3 and other sites to say that the Fuchs ATF works OK in the 6HP26.

I guess I'll see how it goes. Similar to Will, my D3 is of an age where there is little to lose.

[101RRS]

This thread prompted me to have a chat to my local auto transmission specialist. He clearly knows the vehicles and had some interesting comments and views.

He has rarely seen any with terminal failure.

He has seen plenty that have had a rock through or cracked plastic sump - causing fluid loss. So a metal bash plate might be the go offroad.

Not seen any Landies or BMWs with coolant ingress due to the cooler being in the radiator but has seen plenty of Fords. He put it down to crappy radiators in the Fords - not corrosion related failures but fatigue cracks.

Says the metal sump is a must - for protection and ease of servicing the filter.

Does not recommend a mega flush but does insist on oil testing and changing oil on the the basis of the results.

Normal change is just a basic change as long as the test is OK. He indicated that if you leave the car up on the hoist for a couple of hours with the drain and filler holes open then you will get an extra litre or so out the drain.

If he does have to do a mega flush he does not support the drain and fill a few times method but uses the oil cooler pipe method and does the lot in one go.

He believes most of the major oil companies have ATF that are suitable for the gearbox BUT he only uses and recommends ZF 6 - he supplies the local Landrover, BMW and Ford dealers with ZF 6 when they run out.

He charges $46 a litre for ZF 6 which is a bit expensive.

He recommends that the metal sump is a must, for most cars a basic change is only needed as long as the test is OK, then a basic change, test and filter change/clean about every 50,000km.

His cost for a metal pan and 5 litres of ZF6 with labour - is $850. If a mega flush is required - there is an additional $110 labour charge and $46 per litre of oil over the 5 litres.

Garry

[Marmoset]

I got 2 prices yesterday. One for $850 plus GST (metal pan, fluid change) and another for $1100 plus GST (Metal pan and full flush)

The first said no need for a flush - it's cheaper to come back in a year and change fluid again if required. Latter said they don't do it without flushing.

We're not short of options anyway, plastic/steel, flush/no flush!! That's before the fluid comes into it...:confused:

[Geedublya]

Had the metal pan installed and a flush yesterday. Pan is a BMW one with drain and fill holes, 5.5 litres of oil (ZF LG6) was replaced.

Oil was very clean and the filter was clean at 112K km. I got the car at 92K and it was obvious it had been babied, I doubt that it had ever been off road and the towpack was as new in the original bag.

Cost was $700.

I used this transmission shop to rebuild my D3 ZF box which had severe shudder, metal and torque converter clutch particles in the filter when he checked it at 250K. The transmission had been serviced previously on the D3 as it had a metal pan, I just wish I had done it when I first got the car at 192K.

As I tow a fairly heavy camper I intend to have mine serviced every 40K in future, at a cost of $400.

[winaje]

Hi all. Have got the D3 back with the new steel pan and Nulon ATFSYN. First impressions are very good, shudder completely gone as well as the hunt/surge. Vehicle has done 300kms so far, feels much smoother and shifts a lot quicker. I'm happy at this stage. I'll update the thread with any changes. Total cost was $678 for steel pan, full service, labour, and 20L of Nulon ATFSYN. Work carried out by Steve at Goulburn Valley Auto Transmissions in Shepparton.

[smwilk]

Guys, try Gulf Western ATF, my auto shop has been using it for some time. I have now done 50k with it and it's much smoother than my first service with ZF oil. I was initially apprehensive because they didn't tell me and I found out later. Shop said all ford ZF owners are using it now

[Crampeye]

Just read your posts today about gearbox shudder and ATF...


After picking myself up off the floor from a quote of just over $1000 for a service, flush, special sauce transmission additive, new metal pan cover and removable filter, I figured that I needed to do some hunting around.


Picked up a replacement filter through EBAY for a ZF6HP26 box. It was listed as a for XR6 Turbo/XR8 versions from an independent supplier. Looks identical to LR3 variants, but scored it delivered for $130......from a supplier at Geebung in Queensland!!!!


As for the ZF Lifeguard 6 ATF, REPCO offer it at $34 per litre...less than half price for the genuine version, but instead (accepting that I may need to do a double flush and waste a lot of transmission fluid....) I invested in the Nulon Full Synthetic. Todays price at REPCO for the NULON product was $56 for a 4 litre bottle (20% off sale ends July 31 for RACQ card holders...).


Anyway...just wanted to say thanks for the advice sharing so far guys and if this works out better than I can wish for, I will share the outcomes!!!

[winaje]

After 1500km with the Nulon SYNATF I've had no problems, vehicle running well. FYI Supercheap sold me a 20l drum for $248 including delivery.

[vbrab]

After hearing the tales of woe from some who have used alternatives to ZF lifeguard, would be useful for all if those who have used alternatives could give us all feedback on how their transmissions fare with long term use of alternative trans oils.
Have always found it hard to believe that ZF had an oil so unique that using alternatives put your trans in jeopardy, but there were always the stories about "gummed up" or "glazed over" trans plates etc which raised enough concern to keep me paying the ZF price/ransom.
My current D3 trans has just logged 300k on ZF oil without issue, but that may be driving style as much as oil.
Hearing from long term alternative trans oil users would go a long way to dispelling the myth about "only" ZF trans oil.

[101RRS]

which raised enough concern to keep me paying the ZF price/ransom.


ZF is not the problem - it is the onsellers who are price gouging. The ZF retail charge about $28.50 a litre when bought in 20ltr drums. Onsellers such as Landrover charge upwards of $90 a litre, my local auto repairer charges $46 a litre.

Buy direct from ZF and save.

Garry

[winaje]

Hearing from long term alternative trans oil users would go a long way to dispelling the myth about "only" ZF trans oil.

There's a guy in South Africa who has done about 40k on Fuchs oil with no issue. You'll find him on the UK forum, name like Koos Best

[CaverD3]

I think some other ATF manufacturers may have cracked it now.
In the early days of the ZF6 other ATFs were not suitable.
Agree I would like for feedback before my next ATF change. Fuchs is looksin ok so far.

[vbrab]

I also buy it by the drum, but even at $28 a litre that still seems a bit OTT for trans oil. be good if there was a suitable (better priced) replacement that we felt safe with in our transmissions.

[catsman]

Picked the car up from a South Melbourne independent mechanic workshop today as I had a voucher for a service, and as you would expect the oil change is free but then they start mentioning all the other stuff that "needs" doing. Only thing I agreed to as I knew it needed doing was the gearbox oil change with steel pan change. $800 bucks not bad and convenient as I find getting car in for service while at work a hassle.

When I pick it up find out they have used Liquid Moly ATF 1800. They say they use it in all their BMW which they do a lot of. Not really happy to spend 800 for an aftermarket oil, and not exactly a flush so there is a mix of oil in there now.:thumbsdown:

[catsman]

Also interesting reading on non ZF oils and also Penrites' ATF:

ZF 6HP26 Transmission Introduction - Furitech Automotive (http://www.furitech.com.au/index.php/zf-6hp26-transmission-introduction/)

Nulon's website states their ATF shouldn't be mixed with ZF lifeguard and recommend dry fill only...

[Michael2]

I'm looking at buying an 07 D3 V6 Petrol with 200K km for a friend who doesn't know much about cars. We got a pre-purchase inspection, noting that the gearbox still had the original plastic sump, and got quoted $1,300 for the service. The car has no surging issues.

Spoke to Keysborough Automatics (in Melbourne), who tell me they will service it with the ZF fluid and install the Metal sump for $350.

Will confirm this if/when it gets done, but I'm surprised by the range of prices (not really).

[101RRS]

Spoke to Keysborough Automatics (in Melbourne), who tell me they will service it with the ZF fluid and install the Metal sump for $350.

That sounds far too cheap, I would be wary and ensure what you are getting for the money.

[crawal]

Are all the ZF6 sums suitable for the Disco 3's ie BMW , ford or should i just stick to one suitable for Landrover ?
We sell the Range of Total oils at work and they do a product that meets the spec well under $15 litre .

[jonesy63]

Are all the ZF6 sums suitable for the Disco 3's ie BMW , ford or should i just stick to one suitable for Landrover ?
We sell the Range of Total oils at work and they do a product that meets the spec well under $15 litre .

crawal - no, they're not all the same. Most of the Ford ones don't have a drain hole. The BMW/Land Rover ones do have a drain hole - which obviously makes service a lot easier.

[Bandi1950]

I just purchased a steel pan & 20l of lifeguard6 from motorspecs at a cost $26 per litre. When I asked at my local LR dealer they wanted $103 per litre!!
Will try fitting the pan on the weekend and see how I go.

[rambada]

So I've replaced the tray & had a full service :)
Now as a follow up, how often should the tranny be serviced? Wait another 50,000kms or annually approx 20000kms?
Any consensus?

[~Rich~]

50,000 for me. I suppose if you tow a heavy van a lot then annual may be to way to go.

[vbrab]

I've been going with 50-60,000k's as well. Oil looks reasonably clean after that.
When I dropped it first time at 180,000 it looked like used diesel engine oil.

[shanegtr]

How many liters of oil would one need for a drain and refill? Mines already had the steel sump conversion done.

[winaje]

The general opinion is about 6 litres.

[Rich84]

Just got off the phone with TRS in Lonsdale. They priced a new genuine converter at $1100 or installed at $2300. They both seem like acceptable prices to me.


The guy who I spoke to knew exactly what the issue was and also commented on how failure to install the three crossover pipe brackets will lead to eventual failure of the crossover pipe, which they see often enough when people who don't know this model replace the TC. I did already know about that, but it gives me confidence in TRS that they understand the vehicle. His exact words were "we wouldn't even be having this conversation if the previous owner of your car had serviced the trans."


This is opposed to the service manager at Solitaire, who hadn't even heard of the TC being a common issue on TDV6s, and hadn't heard of the oil pump issue either!

[101RRS]

From the workshop manual:

Dry Fill - 9.5 litres
Drain and refill 3.5 to 4 litres (oil and gearbox temp must be between 30 and 50 degrees C)

[shanegtr]

From the workshop manual:

Dry Fill - 9.5 litres
Drain and refill 3.5 to 4 litres (oil and gearbox temp must be between 30 and 50 degrees C)


The general opinion is about 6 litres.

Thanks guys, I wasn't to sure if the replacement steel pan changed the volume to any great degree.

[winaje]

Thanks guys, I wasn't to sure if the replacement steel pan changed the volume to any great degree.

I'm unsure if there is much extra capacity with the steel pan. I based my comment on the fact that reputable sellers of the steel pan upgrade kit include 6 litres of LG6 in their kits.

[RoboDouche]

Mines probably getting done at British Off Road they quoted me $1100 which seems pretty steep.

I've noticed these on ebay

Ford NON Genuine ZF 6HP26 6 SPD Automatic Trans Steel Sump PAN Conversion KIT | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/201094019901'ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649)

It has a drain plug to, which would be damn handy. The only thing is getting some oil to suit.

Anyone gone down this path?

[RoboDouche]

I just noticed this guy to on ebay

Automatic Transmission Range Rover 6HP26 ZF Metal Sump Service KIT 6 Speed | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/121463537091'ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649)

He's selling lifeguard fluid for $39 a litre! Seems cheap!

[bbyer]

I looked at the eBay ad, (Ford non Genuine two posts above), picture and was surprised. The metal pan in the ad just above is more the norm.

The Ford non Genuine looks like a genuine ZF pan as it appears to include the magnets as well as that odd white plastic fill bit at the end centre.

It seems most Ford supplied metal pans lack both the drain and fill holes and hence do not need the white plastic bit; also the magnets are usually not there either.

For the price, that pan appears worth a second look.

[101RRS]

He's selling lifeguard fluid for $39 a litre! Seems cheap!

Repco sell by the litre a couple of $$$ cheaper - if you buy in bulk you can get it for about $26 from ZF.

Garry

[rambada]

So once the initial service has been completed ie pan change, whats the consensus for further servicing regimes?
Annually? Certain kms?

[RoboDouche]

I got told today 50,000k's is a good idea. Maybe out to 75,000 if you're not towing.

Just to let you Disco guys know. I got a quote to change the oil from a local "British" mechanic here on the Sunshine Coast. Quote was $1100 for a new pan and filter and oil. Oil was "apparently" going to cost $79 a litre!

So I went and ordered a metal pan with filter bolts and magnets from an Australian ebayer. Product seems identical to the part that they were going to use. Cost $200. I take it to a local auto gearbox place. $300 including labor and oil. So $500 in total. And yes that was the same oil to. They were also very familiar with the Ford ZF gearbox.

Anyone getting sick of getting ripped off because your car says Land Rover across the front of it? I am:mad:

[Rich84]

I got told today 50,000k's is a good idea. Maybe out to 75,000 if you're not towing.

Just to let you Disco guys know. I got a quote to change the oil from a local "British" mechanic here on the Sunshine Coast. Quote was $1100 for a new pan and filter and oil. Oil was "apparently" going to cost $79 a litre!

So I went and ordered a metal pan with filter bolts and magnets from an Australian ebayer. Product seems identical to the part that they were going to use. Cost $200. I take it to a local auto gearbox place. $300 including labor and oil. So $500 in total. And yes that was the same oil to. They were also very familiar with the Ford ZF gearbox.

Anyone getting sick of getting ripped off because your car says Land Rover across the front of it? I am:mad:

Imagine the scenario when it says "RANGE ROVER" across the front... :Thump:

[bbyer]

The guys at my local alternator shop said that they definitely would not be putting up any sort of Land Rover sign after having to replace my alternator twice.

Once because the internal regulator quit in the replacement alternator after a week or so; the second time because the pulley on the new replacement was short a groove and was noticed until it chewed up the belt.

As such, most of the shops here turn off the lights and put up a closed sign when you drive up.

[Rich84]

It's a denso alternator on our cars... one of the few jap parts in it. Never had an alternator fail with less than double the 150K mine failed at.

Gimme bosch any day :P

[bbyer]

I am starting to think that the Japanese manufacturers are having trouble with their parts sourcing; almost to the point I am feeling sorry for them.

It appears "farther east, or is it north" manufactured parts are being slipped into their parts supply lines and they have no way of tracking that as the paper work, or more correctly computer work, is also specially handled.

It is kind of like the UL and ULC label thing we have going on here - boxes of the labels are printed up so the local shops can apply as required.

I think Toyota had an experience where just some of the valves in some of their engines were not coming from where they thought they were - what a quality control fiasco when you cannot even backtrack the metallurgy as that is how the game is played in the big leagues.

I do not think EU manufactured goods suffer from that reality yet, so yes, Bosch products probably have better quality control these days than the Japanese - times change - it is a big world out there.

[101RRS]

After 1500km with the Nulon SYNATF I've had no problems, vehicle running well. FYI Supercheap sold me a 20l drum for $248 including delivery.


Also interesting reading on non ZF oils and also Penrites' ATF:

ZF 6HP26 Transmission Introduction - Furitech Automotive (http://www.furitech.com.au/index.php/zf-6hp26-transmission-introduction/)

Nulon's website states their ATF shouldn't be mixed with ZF lifeguard and recommend dry fill only...

I was in my local Autopro store and saw a poster for the Nulon Synthetic Multi Vehicle ATF that is a replacement for the Lifeguard 6 ATF. Cost is $55 for 4litres.

I noticed the previous comments above. Has anyone else been using the Nulon product? I noticed Carsman's comments about compatibility with Lifeguard 6 but could not see it on the site - I rang Nulon tech and they claim it is 100% compatible with any Lifeguard 6 still in the box but ......

While this oil is a lot cheaper than Lifeguard 6 and new gearbox is a lot more expensive :(.

So any user reports on this stuff??

Thanks

Garry

[winaje]

I was in my local Autopro store and saw a poster for the Nulon Synthetic Multi Vehicle ATF that is a replacement for the Lifeguard 6 ATF. Cost is $55 for 4litres.

I noticed the previous comments above. Has anyone else been using the Nulon product? I noticed Carsman's comments about compatibility with Lifeguard 6 but could not see it on the site - I rang Nulon tech and they claim it is 100% compatible with any Lifeguard 6 still in the box but ......

While this oil is a lot cheaper than Lifeguard 6 and new gearbox is a lot more expensive :(.

So any user reports on this stuff??

Thanks

Garry

Bought 20 litres from Supercheap for $248 delivered, have been using for 10k, no problems at all. I spoke to Nulon chemical and mechanical engineers for an hour before buying, they stated that although they RECOMMEND a dry fill they realise that it's very rare that'll happen, and are sure that the oil will blend with any remaining LG6. I was and am satisfied with their explanations and the performance of the product. The guys who did my steel pan conversion didn't do a full flush (I found about 14l left in the drum) but the vehicle is performing very well, and there is an obvious improvement over the old LG6. I'll have a full flush done soon including another filter, using ONLY Nulon SYNATF, and will report back results in this thread. Based upon my experience so far, it's Highly recommended.

[101RRS]

My leaning at the moment (and I am happy to be convinced otherwise) is to use the stuff and even if it is not as good as the the Lifeguard at its price of about $12 a litre I can afford to do a basic oil change of the gearbox when I do the oil change on the engine - every 12,000km. It will be half the price of the engine oil and should keep the gearbox nice and fresh.

Garry

[crawal]

Garrry , we sell Total oil and i too will be doing the same thing - engine change =gearbox change .

[Epic pooh]

Will, out of interest, had your gearbox had prior fluid changes in it's life that you know of ? Did the Nulon improve your shift quality ?

I'm in the position of having reduced shift quality and a suspected squealing TC - advice is varied and confusing but I am going to take a first principles approach and start by changing the fluid - if price was no issue, what would your view be Nulon or LG6 ?

I like the idea (noting my sometimes spirited driving and regular towing) of routine (annual) dump and change which as you and Gary say is far more economical with something other than LG6.

[101RRS]

Mick - does sound that a ATF change is needed and maybe a dose of Dr Tranny for good measure as well.

Garry

[winaje]

Will, out of interest, had your gearbox had prior fluid changes in it's life that you know of ? Did the Nulon improve your shift quality ?

I'm in the position of having reduced shift quality and a suspected squealing TC - advice is varied and confusing but I am going to take a first principles approach and start by changing the fluid - if price was no issue, what would your view be Nulon or LG6 ?

I like the idea (noting my sometimes spirited driving and regular towing) of routine (annual) dump and change which as you and Gary say is far more economical with something other than LG6.

I bought the vehicle at 310k, it had been meticulously book maintained to that point, BUT had not had the fluid changed, becuase it's not in the book (stupid LR and their "sealed-for-life (of the warranty)"). The old fluid was pretty bad according to the trans place.

If I hadn't had to worry about money at all, I'd put a steel pan on, and do a full flush with LG6, then do a filter change and another full flush with LG6 10k later. However, I would not be surprised if that came to nearly $2k in a capital city drive in/out.

Too rich for my pot. I noticed a huge improvement all round from a part flush with about 6 litres of the Nulon. I'm expecting it to be better still when the full flush is done with the rest of the Nulon, when I can afford it (money is a consideration for me). If I was doing any heavy work with it, and I'm not, I'd full flush and filter change with Nulon every year. As it is I'll probably do it every 2 years. I have yet to add my 2 tubes of Dr Tranny.

[101RRS]

I bought the vehicle at 310k, it had been meticulously book maintained to that point, BUT had not had the fluid changed, becuase it's not in the book (stupid LR and their "sealed-for-life (of the warranty)"). The old fluid was pretty bad according to the trans place.



In that case you car had not been meticulously maintained because the gearbox is not sealed for life (that is a furfy - not sure where it came from) and changing the gearbox oil is in the service schedule. If you got your car at 310k the gearbox should have been serviced at 240,000km or earlier if used in arduous conditions (which includes city driving).

Now 240,000km (or 10years) is far far too long but it is there in the service schedule.

Garry

[Epic pooh]

Thanks Will and Gary, very helpful.

Mine had a fluid dump and steel pan conversion about 2 years / 25,000 km ago (at 125,000Km). It was great until earlier this year when I may have gotten carried away towing a heavy load up big mountains quite quickly (several times) and it's been getting testy ever since. Part of me suspects that I've just toasted the fluid (combination new and old LG6) - although the issue is far from clear as the fluid visually looks pretty ok.

I've got 2 tubes of Dr Tranny on order ... the question is do I put 12 or so litres of Nulon through it or do I put the national debt in LG6 through it ... Nulon (support Au, price is good, Wills posts on the issue are encouraging, cheap enough to treat to an annual change ...) vs LG6 (RIP OFF, but OEM spec ... ) ... decisions decisions decisions ! My plan is to change and flush with whichever fluid and then if it is not improved after a couple of hundred KM then add Dr Tranny ... if it is not improved then ... back to the drawing board I suppose.

[101RRS]

I cannot help with your question as I have the same delemma - so I change to Nulon (cheap but there is a risk) or stay with LG 6.

What I can say though is only put in enough Dr Tranny to do the job, that is the right amount of Dr Tranny for 9.5 litres (the dry fill amount for the gearbox). From what I have read, more is not better and will cause issues with the TC - I think too slippery.

So put in the just the right amount and it should work well if there is no major defect in the TC.

Garry

[winaje]

Thanks Will and Gary, very helpful.

Mine had a fluid dump and steel pan conversion about 2 years / 25,000 km ago (at 125,000Km). It was great until earlier this year when I may have gotten carried away towing a heavy load up big mountains quite quickly (several times) and it's been getting testy ever since. Part of me suspects that I've just toasted the fluid (combination new and old LG6) - although the issue is far from clear as the fluid visually looks pretty ok.

I've got 2 tubes of Dr Tranny on order ... the question is do I put 12 or so litres of Nulon through it or do I put the national debt in LG6 through it ... Nulon (support Au, price is good, Wills posts on the issue are encouraging, cheap enough to treat to an annual change ...) vs LG6 (RIP OFF, but OEM spec ... ) ... decisions decisions decisions ! My plan is to change and flush with whichever fluid and then if it is not improved after a couple of hundred KM then add Dr Tranny ... if it is not improved then ... back to the drawing board I suppose.

It's 3 months ago, and my memory is failing as I age... but

I seem to recall in my discussions with the chemical engineer at Nulon, that the only difference in spec was so minute that it would result in about .3 l/100km increase in fuel usage, because one spec was a tiny bit different at operating temperature.

Personally I'd suggest giving a full flush with the Nulon a go. I'd say you've burnt the LG6.

[Epic pooh]

Thanks again Will and Gary.

I am pricing ZF fluid vs Nulon and having a full flush done with a proper machine vs doing a dump and pump in the driveway.

Will post what I do when I get around to doing something ... :)

[Epic pooh]

Just an update to this - as I have recently changed a brake light switch and noting the interaction between the switch and vehicle systems, it occurred to me that I might get some benefit from clearing trans ecu adaption ... which I did ... shift quality has improved and as far as I can tell at this early stage the shift quality seems back to normal.

I assume that I will still have the suspected TC squealing under arduous load conditions, but I haven't been able to test that out at this point as it requires either some very spirited driving or a seriously heavy trailer and a long very steep hill at good speed.

[Graeme]

because the gearbox is not sealed for life (that is a furfy - not sure where it came from) and changing the gearbox oil is in the service schedule.It might be in the service schedule but my D4's handbook states that the automatic gearbox is "filled for life".

[gedaso]

This may be a stupid question, but... I'm planning on the metal sump conversion and also wanting to do a complete flush of the fluid. If you do the metal sump conversion, in the process does all the auto fluid drain out (which means a full 9.5L refill), or is a certain amount still trapped inside the tranny (in which case you need less than 9.5L of LG6 fluid) ??

[101RRS]

In a basic drain the change is only about 3 -4 litres - the rest remains up in the the torque converter.

To do a full flush at the one time the hoses on the cooler up on the radiator need to be removed and fluid pumped in and out.

Garry

[gedaso]

Thanks Garry. That makes sense now.

[Rich84]

Just an update to this - as I have recently changed a brake light switch and noting the interaction between the switch and vehicle systems, it occurred to me that I might get some benefit from clearing trans ecu adaption ... which I did ... shift quality has improved and as far as I can tell at this early stage the shift quality seems back to normal.

I assume that I will still have the suspected TC squealing under arduous load conditions, but I haven't been able to test that out at this point as it requires either some very spirited driving or a seriously heavy trailer and a long very steep hill at good speed.

""No problem with your car, they all do that, just drive it till she explodes mate!""

-Every LR workshop I've ever taken my car to.

[Epic pooh]

Haha so true.

Shift quality remains better but I am unable to make up my mind if it is normal. Oh well.

Dr tranny or an oil change ... Or dr tranny then an oil change ... Or an oil change then dr tranny. Ahh first world problems haha

[gedaso]

The LR instructions for fluid drain and refill indicate that the sealing washers for the drain and fill plugs should be discarded and replaced with new ones. My googling hasn't been good enough to find a part number. Does anyone know the relevant part number (or whether a generic sump washer would be ok) ?

[Rich84]

It's a plastic pan and from memory the plastic drain plug has some kind of rubber o-ring on it to seal. You definitely can't use a copper washer but if you want to replace it, I'm sure you could find an o-ring that would work. I didn't bother with mine and it never leaked. Then I replaced it with a steel pan that doesn't even have a drain plug.

The fill plug is metal however, so like the transfer box, if you have a kit of copper washers you shouldn't have any troubles finding a replacement.

Epic pooh you sound a lot like myself, probably a little bit too concerned about these things. I wish I shared the 'turn the stereo up' mentality, but to a car enthusiast, one's car is a reflection of themselves and I'm pretty meticulous with details!! My trans has never been 'right' in my opinion, but I've taken it to a few people now and noone seems to think there's anything wrong with it, even though it makes literally a host of different noises at different stages. I believe most if not all of the noise is coming from the converter, so at some point I'm going to pull that out and then pull the rest of the trans to bits and see if there's anything else that could be making noise and replace it. Then if there's still problems, remove valve body and see if I can get it repaired.

There's places in the US (like Sonnax) that repair mechatronics, I'll have to see if somewhere here does it, or maybe find a low low km Falcon/Territory one and swap the computers over.

[101RRS]

Then I replaced it with a steel pan that doesn't even have a drain plug.

Is that right? So I guess you have to suck the oil out which is a bit of a pain.

Is it just your steel pan (what brand) or do all steel pans lack a drain?

Cheers

Garry

[Rich84]

That's right - no drain plug on mine at least. I bought it from a transmission specialist here in Adelaide - the invoice stated if was for a Falcon/Territory.

It's an aftermarket unit with a laminated paper gasket but still has the two magnets etc. I don't know whether any genuine ZF pans don't have the drain plug for various models, I have heard either the Ford or BMW X5 pan doesn't have one.

I would've preferred to have a plug, but since it's only useful for draining the fluid, which I do through the cooler lines anyway, it does the job for me.

[101RRS]

Thanks - something to look at when I buy mine.

Cheers

Garry

[Eric SDV6SE]

Interesting reading - AFAIK mine has not had a fluid change ever.


just clocked 103,00 kms (including a transcontinental trip in November - ~9000kms of continuous towing a camper trailer) with no real issues.


yes- the LR handbook states "sealed for life".


I am a fan of the NULON products, having used gearbox additives and oils previously (read: old school manual gogs and syncro's etc), however I am also aware of the extended warranty obligations with my D4.


From that view, I am loathe to change to a non OEM product, then in the event of damage, my extended warranty is void and I would potentially be up for a new Tranny.... Then I would rather drive it with the OEM fluid spec and service intervals and have proper recourse to LR in the event something happens.


Having said that.....
I am noticing a bit of hesitation in 1st (i.e when pulling away from an intersection, or at a roundabout, as well as when shifting from reverse into 1st. Will ask at next service if they can clear the ECU error codes 9 have found in the past (on bikes etc) that this can dramatically improve response.

[Rich84]

I'd suspect the following:
-trans fluid needs to be replaced -and/or-
-if you or someone else has been driving it hard you'll notice the trans will hold gears longer. The trans ECU adapts to driver behaviour and wear within the transmission ie clutches etc up to a limit. You can clear these adaptations which will force the trans ECU to learn new adaptations based on how you drive now. -and/or-
-You have one front tire worn slightly more than the other, hence one wheel is spinning slightly faster than the other. This causes the trans ECU to think you are turning a corner, and it will not change gear. The difference could be small enough that the symptom is still intermittent -and/or-
-Faulty brake light switch - trans will not change gears if it thinks your foot is on the brake. Often you would get cascade faults with that as well if something is shorting out.

As you're at 100K+ I would do a double flush (at least) using LG6 or an OEM substitute (Shell/Ravenol etc) that was developed for this trans. I'm not convinced by the other brands' "Multi Vehicle ATF" - I'm not saying they don't work, they just haven't worked for me. You can replace the pan with the metal one and replace the filter at the same time.

I'd follow that up with clearing the transmission adaptations. The two actions together will more than likely clear up any driveability issues you are having, except for maybe the reverse to 1st problem - what exactly is happening there?

Of course, check with LRA first to gauge their position on you carrying out service work that is not scheduled by them (but is still required nonetheless).

[Eric SDV6SE]

I'd suspect the following:
-trans fluid needs to be replaced -and/or-
-if you or someone else has been driving it hard you'll notice the trans will hold gears longer. The trans ECU adapts to driver behaviour and wear within the transmission ie clutches etc up to a limit. You can clear these adaptations which will force the trans ECU to learn new adaptations based on how you drive now. -and/or-
-You have one front tire worn slightly more than the other, hence one wheel is spinning slightly faster than the other. This causes the trans ECU to think you are turning a corner, and it will not change gear. The difference could be small enough that the symptom is still intermittent
-and/or-
-Faulty brake light switch - trans will not change gears if it thinks your foot is on the brake. Often you would get cascade faults with that as well if something is shorting out.
As you're at 100K+ I would do a double flush (at least) using LG6 or an OEM substitute (Shell/Ravenol etc) that was developed for this trans. I'm not convinced by the other brands' "Multi Vehicle ATF" - I'm not saying they don't work, they just haven't worked for me. You can replace the pan with the metal one and replace the filter at the same time.

I'd follow that up with clearing the transmission adaptations. The two actions together will more than likely clear up any driveability issues you are having, except for maybe the reverse to 1st problem - what exactly is happening there?

Of course, check with LRA first to gauge their position on you carrying out service work that is not scheduled by them (but is still required nonetheless).




Doesn't seem to be holding gears longer - Idrive it normally (70% freeway on cruise control but put the occasional"boot in" just for kicks and that awesome 3.0L TTV6
Tyres are worn - I believe they will be OKfor this summer


No issue with brake lights or switch AFAIK,both boat and camper trailer (with electric brakes) are working fine. Interlockwith brake is also working fine.
Sounds good - will follow that up shortly.


Select "R", reverse out ofdriveway (or carpark etc.), brake, select "D" and she hesitates for1-2 seconds, then 'clunks' into 1st quite roughly. even with engine/trans attemp and vehicle fully stopped.
Thanks - will do

[Rich84]

Might be worth also checking to make sure the latest transmission firmware is installed? That sounds more like either a firmware or a mechatronic unit issue than a simple maintenance one... The firmware is certainly not perfect but there's been quite a few revisions to it and I'm lead to believe it does get better each time!

[Graeme]

My still to be fitted steel pan is the BMW version with the drain plug.

[reidkiwigold]

Hi, ive just had my trannie oil changed at brighton land rover, the vehicle has done 102,000km the oil was black, and the tranmission seemed smother,although there was nothing wrong with the transmission in the first place, there recocomendation for servicing for transmissions are change oil at 100,00 kms and change pan &filler& oil at 160,000kms. any thoughts.

[~Rich~]

If the box has 50,000 services then the box will last.
Look after it and it will look after you.
I had my first one at 96,000 ( not original owner) another at 146,000 and it's starting to have issues at 196,000, due for another service but will need more than just a fluid and filter change.
My first one was done too late / damage was already done. :(
Dr Tranny will postpone repairs but not fully fix shudder long term.

Get the pan changed to a steel one first service, it will save you $$$ down the track on future servicing.

[andyrover]

I have just traded my D3 for a RRS with low (relative) kms and the trans issue has come up. It seems that all items are original and nothing has been improved or replaced. At first I was pleased that the car had all original equipment! Now I'm not so sure...

[Silver Surfer]

Hi there. Just wanted to let everyone know I had the typical shudder between gear changes. Took it to a prominent LR workshop and had the software updated. Made it worse. Was told 7k. No options. I read about Dr Tranny on this forum. Bought 3 tubes of shudder fix on eBay. $45 delivered. Put 2 tubes in. Drove 5km. Shudder gone. Box 100% better.
I can also confirm a seperate prominent LR service centre is currently trialling it. Cheers.

[~Rich~]

Well I learnt a lot about the 6 speed box today, seems it is one of the best auto built to now in the world. Yes it will last with some examples of the same gearbox with over 2million kilometres on them, not in discovery's but other makes.
The secret to long service life:
Fluid and filter changes every 60,000k.
There are some alloy components that wear inside the box, the fine particles get into all the solenoids,clutch packs and valve bodies eventually making them fail.
This is why it is critical to service the auto at 60,000k.
There are two ZF auto rebuild specialist in Australia that I know of, AB Automatics in Melbourne - these guys are recommended by LR as a approved ZF service agent. This is all good except they rebuild the boxes to exactly the same original spec as LR.
They are not allowed to modify them.
OK why is this not the best?
Well the ZF box had a couple of minor flaws, there are some aluminium plugs in the box the are supposed to seal off some galleries, the problem is they do not completely seal then off. The plugs sort of rattle in there spot,not good.
This brings me to who Gords suggestion to contact Bob at Cohuna Automatics which is on the border of NSW & VIC.
He has over 40 years experience in automatic transmission.
He services and rebuilds all Automatics and does Ritter's in Melbourne work as well as many around the country He rebuilds the boxes and improves them with some minor modifications. This includes having O rings on those alloy plugs I spoke of before as well as other things.

I'll let you know how I go but I'll be using these guys to rebuild my auto early next year.

Many thanks to Gord for the contact details.

[Gippslander]

Got the wife's D3 transmission serviced and new sump at Morwell Automatic transmission. Had a look at the oil and filter it was due for change but not bad according to the owner, he has done a lot in the past few years the quote was $750 and that was using ZF oil so really happy. Drives like a dream still has hesitation at round about i am told there is a patch for but haven't got it done yet. Decided to keep the rig so fitted Bridgestone 694 AT tyres after doing the tranny all good for another 60,000kms.

Gippy:D

[V2Evo96]

Got the wife's D3 transmission serviced and new sump at Morwell Automatic transmission. Had a look at the oil and filter it was due for change but not bad according to the owner, he has done a lot in the past few years the quote was $750 and that was using ZF oil so really happy. Drives like a dream still has hesitation at round about i am told there is a patch for but haven't got it done yet. Decided to keep the rig so fitted Bridgestone 694 AT tyres after doing the tranny all good for another 60,000kms.

Gippy:D

Gippslander does this price include a steel sump or just the fluid and filter change?

Thanks, V2

[Gippslander]

The price included all new parts, steel sump, filter and oil also he was very cooperative in explaining about the transmission overall condition and recommendations for future servicing.

Gippy:)

[gasman]

WARNING??.

THIS IS A $7500 WARNING TO ALL D3-4 OWNERS OR POTENTIAL OWNERS

WAKE TO YOURSELVES AND DON'T BELIEVE THE CRAP DISHED OUT BY SO CALLED SPECIALISTS???. GET THE BASTARD SERVICED…..

HOW MANY TIMES DO YOU HAVE TO BE WARNED??..

GRAEME COOPERS WILL LOOK AFTER YOU, IF YOU CAN'T DO IT YOURSELF??..:censored:

[gedaso]

I just fitted a steel pan. What a pain the in rear end. Amongst other things I had to:
- cut one of the small bolts which holds the heatshield support frame in place, since it fouls on the front driveshaft
- remove the transmission support cross member to get one of the rear sump pan bolts out, which in turn required partly dropping the fuel tank since its bash plate prevented access to the nuts for the cross member on the drivers side.

Anyway, got it all done and put back together. I followed the recommended tightening sequence and bolt torques for the pan bolts but now have leaks from around the gasket. I've already had one go at tightening again without an improvement

Anyone else had a similar problem ? Is the only option for me to drop the pan again, get a new gasket, and install it using some sort of gasket sealant ?

[Graeme]

Did any of your old bolts show corrosion? Mine did which meant that they were reluctant to go in far enough to clamp the gasket properly, to the extent that I sheared the head off 1 bolt requiring it to be extracted using an eze-out. I then used a tap to clean the threads where they were accessible but for a couple under the front cross-member the Nickel anti-seize did a good enough job.

[rar110]

The RR must be different. There is nothing obstructing access.

Maybe I'm looking at the wrong thing.

[Tote]

I picked up three litres of Lifeguard 6 from Repco Goulburn this afternoon for $29.25 a litre with the 25% discount for motoring association members.
Part number 749626-1 as mentioned in this thread http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/204678-cheapest-place-buy-lifeguard-6-litre.html

They had three more in stock, there's none in stock at any of the Canberra shops.

Regards,
Tote

[gedaso]

Did any of your old bolts show corrosion? Mine did which meant that they were reluctant to go in far enough to clamp the gasket properly, to the extent that I sheared the head off 1 bolt requiring it to be extracted using an eze-out. I then used a tap to clean the threads where they were accessible but for a couple under the front cross-member the Nickel anti-seize did a good enough job.
Thanks Graeme. While the bolts seemed to come out pretty easily originally, I went back around and removed each bolt, chased the threads with a M6 tap, and put the bolts back with nickel anti-sieze. I found only a few threads which seemed a bit corroded, and they were the ones where leaks were occurring, so I think your theory was right. I left it sit overnight, then rechecked all the bolt torques, and there doesn't appear to be any leaks now.


The RR must be different. There is nothing obstructing access. Mine is a 2007 4.0L V6 petrol. At the front, the engine bashplate partially obstructs the bolts (but it's not too bad). But at the back, access is pretty poor due to the transmission cross member (which passes directly underneath the sump drain plug) and the exhaust pipe for the right bank of cylinders, which crosses over just in front of the transmission support. See photo below (new steel pan is in top left hand side, front prop shaft in the middle, exhaust and transmission support at the bottom. The evil bolts for the heatshield bracket, which are too long to remove without a hacksaw, are in the middle).

I've taken it for a test drive, and noticed a distinct "meshing" noise which wasn't there before. It's coming from the box (since it rises and falls with the gear changes) and sounds almost as if the box doesn't have enough oil. But I've done the procedure per the LR workshop manual (ensuring oil temperature was between 30 and 50 deg) twice and the oil level should be spot on. Now I'm stressed that my efforts over the past week have only made things worse than they were before, despite the new fluid, and wondering whether I shouldn't take it to an auto specialist for a diagnosis.

I'm so over this frikkn thing :mad:

[rar110]

I got a local independent LR workshop to do mine recently. Cost me $750 but they flush out the tranny before new fluid goes in. The RR is on a novated lease so the cost is basically tax deductible.

There was very little change after it was done. It may be a little smoother. It has 230,000 km.

[Graeme]

Not knowing LR's documented procedure having used ZF's procedure, did you get to run the gearbox through each gear using manual mode before final topping up?

[gedaso]

Yes, cycled through all the gears (R, N, D, command shift 1, 2, 3) for a few seconds each. Couldn't get it to go higher than 3 in command shift mode though - figured this was the gearbox deciding since I wasn't moving it wouldn't try.

[vbrab]

Have done the pan change and self service on trans 3 times so far and helped a few friends do theirs.
Have not had the problems with bolts that some describe, but they are fiddly and require very small ratchets and such to get some pan bolts out.
Remove rear cross member and jack box up facilitates easier bolt removal.
Best advice I can give on leaks is Hylomar (paste in a tin with a brush that comes with it), on both sides of gasket, and on contact edge surface of new pan. Keep left over can in fridge as it evaporates in can even in shade.
Have found coating surfaces twice before allowing it to tack off, makes for good seal.
Seal often leaks initially, just keep tightening in sequence like you would work around a head or a wheel.
Alternative sealant that pro's use is the gasket cement that Toyota use (comes in a cartridge). Am told that does not leak.
Have just had transmission rebuilt at 309,000k's, It was going OK, but some TC drone and rear main leak so got it all done as I live remote.
In the city I would have probably left it until it died.
It is almost an $8000 job all up, so change fluid regularly, and do not believe dealers who insist it is "sealed for life".

[Nickxb]

Can anyone recommend a place to get my D3 transmission serviced including steel pan in Brisbane (preferably South side)?

[rar110]

Can anyone recommend a place to get my D3 transmission serviced including steel pan in Brisbane (preferably South side)?

I use Greg Tunstall Mechanical at ormiston. He did the tranny service on my ZF. It already had a steel pan.

It's a short walk from station on Cleveland train line. Ph 07 3821 0622. He works on Rovers & Triumphs, and drives a P38.

[shanegtr]

Am I correct in assuming that there's a couple of different steel pans for the auto trans? Mine defiantly no longer has a plastic trans pan, but the steel one that's on there has no drain plug? Am I correct in saying that the pan everyone's using has a drain plug in it?

[Graeme]

The BMW version of the pan has a drain plug whereas the Ford version does not.

[Tote]

Thanks, that explains why mine has a BMW sticker on it

Regards
Tote

[jonesy63]

Just for reference, I bought a steel sump conversion kit direct from ZF yesterday, as well as a mechatronic plug seal. $271 for that - which included the BMW X5 steel sump with drain plug. I also got 6L of ZF Lifeguard Fluid 6 from Repco (using NRMA membership discount of 10%) for $189 - or $31.50 a litre.

I have been refused service at 2 auto transmission shops - as they know there are problems with these ZF (as previously mentioned by Graeme) and don't want to be a part of the "fun". :mad: I don't want a LR dealership to have their "technicians" perform the work - as I am sure this is way below their obvious skills (at $150/hr!). :angel:

Good luck to all with their autos!

[colb902]

So why does land rover fit the plastic sump, that is a bugger to service if BMW and ford fit a steel one?

I've read the thread and have arranged to get it serviced and new sump next month. my disco 3 has done 130K km and bought it last month,

[winaje]

LR don't care about auto servicing, they say that the auto is sealed for life. "Life" means after their warranty period expires, so they have no interest in making servicing easier as they don't want to have to service the auto at all. Also the plastic pan is harder to remove and therefore the end user can be charged more.

BTW, there MAY be a real reason for it, but the above is far more likely.

[Ian Abbott]

Since my D3 has been getting the shudders I thought I'd post some of my research on a new thread rather than generating heaps of posts on the FAQ. Happy to be corrected on any points that other people know of, maybe we'll all learn something. So to kick it off....

Transmission is a ZF 6HP26 unit. Is currently fitted to BMWs, Ford Falcons and Territories, Audis and Jaguars to name a few

The transmission has been around in one form or another since 2001 when it was introduced on a 7 series

ZF have designated the transmission as "sealed for life" but a more accurate description of this strategy would be "sealed until the warranty period is over"

The Land Rover variant uses a plastic sump which has an inbuilt filter which is a throwaway with the sump at service time. The filter also means that the engine has to be lifted from one mount to fit the new sump. ZF make a steel sump part number 1068 103 820 01 Kit Sump. an alloy sump may also be available ex Ford. These variants do not have the filter inbuilt and can be fitted / removed without lifting the engine.

Fluid for these transmissions is ZF LifguardFluid6 part number S671 090 253 for a 20 litre drum. Dealers charge $78 a litre, other repairers less but it's still expensive.
Other alternatives may be Motospecs Part # 749626, Ford RI-28, Shell ATF M 1375.4, Mercon SP XT-6-QSP Ford have a RRP of $48 a litre for their oil.


The design of the 6hp26 is different in that it does not have bands but rather clutch packs and the transmission is completely electronically controlled. The torque converter clutch is modulated in that it can be engaging and releasing at a rapid rate to allow a transition between fully locked up and disengaged. The torque converter clutch can lock up in all gears

Due to these transmissions having no service schedule they develop a "shudder" that is similar to driving over a ripple strip embedded in the white line at the edge of a road. This is caused by the degredation of the oil and causes wear to the torque converter clutch and potentially damages the rest of the transmission through contamination and overheating.

It would seem that 50,000KM would be a good time to change the transmission fluid to delay the fault above happening.

Sport mode reduces the shudder substantially, possibly because the transmission is more likely to kick down a gear in response to increased load rather than modulating the torque converter to allow some slip.

There are reports from the UK of coolant contamination from the transmission cooler in the radiator becoming porous. It may be worthwhile to consider testing old fluid for glycol as a transmission flush will not help for long.

It's NOT a "Land Rover Problem".... Googling the transmission model number brings up lots of tales of woe from owners of these transmissions that have failed due to lack of oil changes.

When off road in steep country it is preferable to lock the vehicle in a suitable gear to reduce heat load on the transmission rather than leaving it in drive.

A new transmission will cost you in the vicinity of $7000 so regular oil changes make sense.

Thats all I can think of for now, any other thoughts welcome.
RMP, maybe when we have a complete list we could revise and put in the FAQ?

Regards,
Tote


Thanking you, I have just had our D4 auto trans oil done, old oil checked for status, and new sump pan and filter. 94 K Km Ian A

[AJC]

Hi All,

FYI- Rover Works Mitchell in the ACT did my transmission pan serice. Cost me $1250 for the modified steel pan with a drain plug, 8ltrs of fluid, labour and code clearance / resetting, including GST.

I recently picked up a 7/2011 Disco 4 TDV6 2.7 wth the 6 speed with 162000 kms. Whilst high kms at 47K pa, they were mainly highway miles (previous owners did a hwy commuite to and from work of approx 50km each way so thats 25K alone, and the balance of annaul kms would have alot of highway running in and out of town. Not a lot of towing - horse people apparently and a 2 horse float is approx 2.5 tonne, and horse people don't tend to tow long distances or fast in my experience). So, despite the kms, the transmission was fine. I had the preventative maintenance modification done anyway given the kms and as I tow.

[SteveT]

On recommendation from Rick at Ricks's 4WD I just had my D3 4.4lt V8 transmission fitted with steel pan at Russells autos at Ashmore.

He knew about the job and seems to have done a few, booked in the next day and completed in 1/2 day.
Total cost was $796 which included a $49 connector sleeve that was weeping oil.

Oh and the transmission changes much smoother and now don't get the delayed take off I was getting every now and then.

Highly recommended.