All discussions relating to the Defenders end of production

[Didge]

Y.....:p When it comes to comprehending Land Rovers attitude and approach in abandoning its roots ............... :eek::p
A cheap and vulgar money grab I'd suggest!! They're just looking at the potential dollars from soccer mums and the like but then again, if they don't maybe they won't survive. But they sell every Defender they build don't they?! So that puzzles me a bit. Do you think there's a bit of snobbery occurring? only wanting to go RR & Disco for the well heeled set?
Some one will fill the gap (if they create one) and from what I've heard here it sounds like Jeep is eyeing the market.

[MrLandy]

A cheap and vulgar money grab I'd suggest!! They're just looking at the potential dollars from soccer mums and the like but then again, if they don't maybe they won't survive. But they sell every Defender they build don't they?! So that puzzles me a bit. Do you think there's a bit of snobbery occurring? only wanting to go RR & Disco for the well heeled set?
Some one will fill the gap (if they create one) and from what I've heard here it sounds like Jeep is eyeing the market.

Totally Didge. And if Jeep arent eyeing the HD work vehicle market they'd be crazy...its so wide open. But a fancy Wrangler won't cut it. Too beach boy.

[DiscoMick]

Yeah Didge, normally I would agree, but I've tried that. :p When it comes to comprehending Land Rovers attitude and approach in abandoning its roots and the heavy duty 4WD market with the demise of Defender, adopting the SUV mentality that a veneer of adventure is all that is required and treats their loyal Defender customers with such contempt, only a full frontal lobotomy will do I'm afraid. And joining the ranks of scribes who are feverishly attempting to make all that fit their word limits, editors limits and limited experience with Land Rovers, doubly so! ...can you have a double frontal lobotomy CBT? Or is that why we need to put our heads together so to speak? Just in order to cope! :eek::p
I wouldn't recommend a lobotomy, it apparently mainly made people more stupid. Drugs are better for that.


The purpose of the operation was to reduce the symptoms of mental disorder, and it was recognized that this was accomplished at the expense of a person's personality and intellect. British psychiatrist Maurice Partridge, who conducted a follow-up study of 300 patients, said that the treatment achieved its effects by "reducing the complexity of psychic life". Following the operation, spontaneity, responsiveness, self-awareness and self-control were reduced. Activity was replaced by inertia, and people were left emotionally blunted and restricted in their intellectual range.[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobotomy#cite_note-FOOTNOTEPartridge1950470.E2.80.93471-8)
The consequences of the operation have been described as "mixed".[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobotomy#cite_note-FOOTNOTECooper2014143-154-9) Some patients died as a result of the operation and others later committed suicide. Some were left severely brain-damaged. Others were able to leave the hospital, or became more manageable within the hospital.[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobotomy#cite_note-FOOTNOTECooper2014143-154-9) A few people managed to return to responsible work, while at the other extreme people were left with severe and disabling impairments.[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobotomy#cite_note-FOOTNOTEValenstein1997499.E2.80.93516-10) Most people fell into an intermediate group, left with some improvement of their symptoms but also with emotional and intellectual deficits to which they made a better or worse adjustment.[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobotomy#cite_note-FOOTNOTEValenstein1997499.E2.80.93516-10) On average, there was a mortality rate of approximately 5 percent during the 1940s.[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobotomy#cite_note-FOOTNOTEValenstein1997499.E2.80.93516-10)
The lobotomy procedure could have severe negative effects on a patient's personality and ability to function independently.[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobotomy#cite_note-FOOTNOTESzasz2007151.E2.80.93172-11) Lobotomy patients often show a marked reduction in initiative and inhibition.[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobotomy#cite_note-FOOTNOTEFreberg2010416.E2.80.93417-12) They may also exhibit difficulty putting themselves in the position of others because of decreased cognition and detachment from society.[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobotomy#cite_note-FOOTNOTEShutts1982-13)
Immediately following surgery, patients were often stuporous, confused, and incontinent. Some developed an enormous appetite and gained considerable weight. Seizures were another common complication of surgery. Emphasis was put on the training of patients in the weeks and months following surgery.[12] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobotomy#cite_note-FOOTNOTENoyesKolb1962550.E2.80.93555-14)
Freeman coined the term "surgically induced childhood" and used it constantly to refer the results of lobotomy. The operation left people with an "infantile personality"; a period of maturation would then, according to Freeman, lead to recovery. In an unpublished memoir he described how the "personality of the patient was changed in some way in the hope of rendering him more amenable to the social pressures under which he is supposed to exist." He described one 29-year-old woman as being, following lobotomy, a "smiling, lazy and satisfactory patient with the personality of an oyster" who couldn't remember Freeman's name and endlessly poured coffee from an empty pot. When her parents had difficulty dealing with her behaviour, Freeman advised a system of rewards (ice-cream) and punishment (smacks).[13] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobotomy#cite_note-FOOTNOTERaz2013101.E2.80.93113-15)
Russian psychiatrist Fedor Kondratev, of the Serbsky Center (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbsky_Center), said that thousands of the people with schizophrenia to whom the method was applied had completely lost the remnants of their mental health; their fate had been irrevocably broken.[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobotomy#cite_note-FOOTNOTEKondratev201044-16)

[cuppabillytea]

There you go MrLandy. :eek: It looks like it's the more traditional Bottle In Front Of Me for us. I cant afford to become any more stupid. :p

[4wheeler]

The June edition of Land Rover Owner International magazine suggests that the planned replacement of the Defender has been pushed to 2020 at the earliest as the boffins at LR were not happy with the direction the designers were taking.

If this is the case, then I have a great fear that the Defender will be no more. I suspected as much as there have been absolutely no shots of any test vehicles/concept vehicles anywhere which was very sus given its release was meant to be 2017-2018.

I suspect LR will be now know exclusively as a prestige marque supplying expensive 4x4's to well healed punters, most of whom will not be interested in getting the tyres dirty. I hope I am proved wrong but given LR has mucked around for 30 years too long on this, sadly I don't see Defender as being part of the LR picture any longer. LR has become just another manufacturer who makes pretty cars!

[MrLandy]

The June edition of Land Rover Owner International magazine suggests that the planned replacement of the Defender has been pushed to 2020 at the earliest as the boffins at LR were not happy with the direction the designers were taking.

If this is the case, then I have a great fear that the Defender will be no more. I suspected as much as there have been absolutely no shots of any test vehicles/concept vehicles anywhere which was very sus given its release was meant to be 2017-2018.

I suspect LR will be now know exclusively as a prestige marque supplying expensive 4x4's to well healed punters, most of whom will not be interested in getting the tyres dirty. I hope I am proved wrong but given LR has mucked around for 30 years too long on this, sadly I don't see Defender as being part of the LR picture any longer. LR has become just another manufacturer who makes pretty cars!

Indeed.

[Pickles2]

The June edition of Land Rover Owner International magazine suggests that the planned replacement of the Defender has been pushed to 2020 at the earliest as the boffins at LR were not happy with the direction the designers were taking.

If this is the case, then I have a great fear that the Defender will be no more. I suspected as much as there have been absolutely no shots of any test vehicles/concept vehicles anywhere which was very sus given its release was meant to be 2017-2018.

I suspect LR will be now know exclusively as a prestige marque supplying expensive 4x4's to well healed punters, most of whom will not be interested in getting the tyres dirty. I hope I am proved wrong but given LR has mucked around for 30 years too long on this, sadly I don't see Defender as being part of the LR picture any longer. LR has become just another manufacturer who makes pretty cars!
I don't agree with your comment about pretty cars,...what JLR is doing, is manufacturing cars that sell,...they are actually holding up the Jaguar side at the moment....Don't think you could call an SVR Range Rover with 575hp a "pretty" car, ...I'd call it a weapon.
As far as Defender goes, as usual,.....who knows, but your info re 2020 certainly is interesting, but no-one really knows what's happening do they?
I for one & maybe a few on here might feel that whilst we love it, maybe the Defender as we know it, is a bit of a dinasaur, so maybe, if there is a "new" replacement, then maybe, it should have a "new" name.
But, it's all "myth & hearsay" at the moment anyway.
Pickles.

[manic]

The SVR range rover is a jacked up sports car. It's not so much progress for Land Rover, more of a sell out, completely removed from what Land Rover set out to do when conceived.

If your saying the replacement will be so different they shouldn't even call it a Defender , well then maybe they should drop the Land Rover brand completely, before it starts to look completely hollow.

How about they go back to 'Rover'? You could have the new Range Rover Elitist from Rover with its advanced poor people avoidance system. And the Disco Trolly from rover with intelligent shopping assistance.

Up until the last Defender rolled off the line you could at least say that they were diversifying the range whilst honouring the brand's roots. If they do not replace the Defender with a model that is a no nonsense 4x4 work horse, they will be separating themselves from their spine.... IMO!

I don't even think their 'Defender' needs to sell in great numbers, LAND ROVER needs an Offroad/work biased vehicle to hold the brand together whilst they continue to make a killing on the lux market. Unless of course, they have already reinvented themselves as a luxury car brand, in which case it's been a good run, RIP.

[scarry]

The SVR range rover is a jacked up sports car. It's not so much progress for Land Rover, more of a sell out, completely removed from what Land Rover set out to do when conceived.

If your saying the replacement will be so different they shouldn't even call it a Defender , well then maybe they should drop the Land Rover brand completely, before it starts to look completely hollow.

How about they go back to 'Rover'? You could have the new Range Rover Elitist from Rover with its advanced poor people avoidance system. And the Disco Trolly from rover with intelligent shopping assistance.

Up until the last Defender rolled off the line you could at least say that they were diversifying the range whilst honouring the brand's roots. If they do not replace the Defender with a model that is a no nonsense 4x4 work horse, they will be separating themselves from their spine.... IMO!

I don't even think their 'Defender' needs to sell in great numbers, LAND ROVER needs an Offroad/work biased vehicle to hold the brand together whilst they continue to make a killing on the lux market. Unless of course, they have already reinvented themselves as a luxury car brand, in which case it's been a good run, RIP.

Yep,that is what they have done.Every Disco model has moved further and further up market.:(

As i have said before,they don't have a basic family vehicle anymore,which is what the Disco,and to an extent the Deefer wagon variants were.

They are missing that area of the market completely.

But i don't think they care,upmarket is probably where the money is,or where they think it is.For some reason,they seem to want to fill the vehicles up with the most electronic crap they possible can.

I doubt they really care where it all started either.

[4wheeler]

I don't agree with your comment about pretty cars,...what JLR is doing, is manufacturing cars that sell,...they are actually holding up the Jaguar side at the moment....Don't think you could call an SVR Range Rover with 575hp a "pretty" car, ...I'd call it a weapon.
As far as Defender goes, as usual,.....who knows, but your info re 2020 certainly is interesting, but no-one really knows what's happening do they?
I for one & maybe a few on here might feel that whilst we love it, maybe the Defender as we know it, is a bit of a dinasaur, so maybe, if there is a "new" replacement, then maybe, it should have a "new" name.
But, it's all "myth & hearsay" at the moment anyway.
Pickles.
Pickles,
I think we are on different pages of the same song book. I am talking about a vehicle with true 4x4 capability. You are talking about a 575hp RR worth $220.000. Am I going to toss a bail of hay in the back? Probably not. While it is obviously a magnificent vehicle and a "weapon" who is going to take a vehicle like that into the Victorian High Country (assuming you could get rims and tyres to fit). I agree that JLR are building vehicles which people want and they are all attractive or appealing vehicles to JLR's main target audience these days (hence my tongue in cheek comment about pretty vehicles) but apart from the Discovery, what use are they to those who want to use them for what a true 4x4 is used for.

I am well aware of the Defender's shortcomings and any new vehicle needs to be dragged into the modern era of safety, fit and finish. Whatever they call it must be modern, safe and functional but if it is just another Discovery or RR, why bother.

The Defender was meant to be replaced after the TD5 but then came the TDCI. Then the replacement was meant to be 2012 but same old same old. Then 2016, Defender gone with new model due 2017. Now it is speculated that it is now 2020 and beyond. Land Rover is living up to the catch-phrase "Go Beyond" with the Defender replacement that is for sure.:wasntme:

[MrLandy]

Yup, Rover works better with Jaguar anyway. LR Cred is gone. $100 - $200K+ vehicles primarily aimed at the urban elite doesn't cut it.

[jon3950]

who is going to take a vehicle like that into the Victorian High Country (assuming you could get rims and tyres to fit).

**** I would. :D

[JDNSW]

Perhaps worth remembering that the current Landrover-Jaguar is essentially the old Rover company, and is thriving on the same market as the Rover company did in the thirties, and aspired to in the forties, fifties and sixties.

The Land Rover, in 1947, was totally out of character, and unlike anything the company had even thought of prior to then, and whether it was seen as a stopgap or as a new area of business, it remained a sideline in one sense. Far more effort and capital was put into developing the Rangerover, Rover 2000 (&3500) and other saloons than was put into Landrovers, even during the fifties, sixties and early seventies when Landrover represented the vast majority of the company's production and profit.

The company is not currently under the stress it was in 1947, so I suspect the future does not look good for the Defender replacement.

John

[Tote]

Would Land Rover really choose to ignore a space that is the largest vertical market? ie The dual cab ute market. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense when you consider that they are expanding and creating niche markets with vehicles like the Evoque to ignore such a large market sector completely.
Not sure how they would approach the "heavy duty" category though when that market in the US, logically their biggest opportunity is dominated by Ford, GM and Dodge.
Maybe a 4wd capable vehicle in the "half ton" (not necessarily its load rating in Aus) category would be the logical approach as there is not the competition in that sector in the US and it is a good fit with their traditional market.
Their competitors in this space are the Ranger and the (now 3l) Amarok. I would expect a Defender to meet that market.
As an aside last weekend we had a stock Mazda BT50 with an aluminium tray on a trip that proved just as capable as the Defenders and troopie that were there. Factory rear lockers and traction control will give a huge boost in capability over an older vehicle.
Whatever the Defender replacement is it will be unlikely to rip your belt loops, make you sit in a wierd driving position or force you to have your leg broken to accomodate the handbrake lever so I suspect some of us will be dissappointed

Regards,
Tote

[DiscoMick]

I remember at one stage McGovern said they were benchmarking to beat the Hilux, even planning to fit the same size parts such as bolts etc to make remote repairs easier. He said they were planning a whole new range of vehicles under the 'durable' description.
I wouldn't get too worried about reports of delays. The important thing is they get it right and produce a true work vehicle which can also appeal to recreational buyers so it sells in large numbers. They already have the chassis, engines and other bits in other vehicles, so it's a case of getting the design and engineering right.
I'm sure they are capable of doing that, if they think the business case stacks up.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[Pickles2]

Pickles,
I think we are on different pages of the same song book. I am talking about a vehicle with true 4x4 capability. You are talking about a 575hp RR worth $220.000. Am I going to toss a bail of hay in the back? Probably not. While it is obviously a magnificent vehicle and a "weapon" who is going to take a vehicle like that into the Victorian High Country (assuming you could get rims and tyres to fit). I agree that JLR are building vehicles which people want and they are all attractive or appealing vehicles to JLR's main target audience these days (hence my tongue in cheek comment about pretty vehicles) but apart from the Discovery, what use are they to those who want to use them for what a true 4x4 is used for.

I am well aware of the Defender's shortcomings and any new vehicle needs to be dragged into the modern era of safety, fit and finish. Whatever they call it must be modern, safe and functional but if it is just another Discovery or RR, why bother.

The Defender was meant to be replaced after the TD5 but then came the TDCI. Then the replacement was meant to be 2012 but same old same old. Then 2016, Defender gone with new model due 2017. Now it is speculated that it is now 2020 and beyond. Land Rover is living up to the catch-phrase "Go Beyond" with the Defender replacement that is for sure.:wasntme:
"Same Book"?....I think you're right.
One thing is for sure, IMHO of course, JLR could not keep producing Defender, expensive, Labor intensive, to produce etc, and lucky to sell 16/18000 a year worldwide, ...prior to the "last minute rush". No-one's buying them, because the competition's MILES ahead & cheaper, so no-one really wanted a Defender, except enthusiasts,..like us.
Whatever any "new" Defender will be, if there is one, if it ain't like "ours", I wouldn't be surprised, I'd be happy actually, I'd really like ours to be "The Last Of The Line".
But, whilst I'm looking forward to seeing any "New" Defender, I'm not into any criticism of, having a go at etc, JLR,.....why?.....because there's nothing really to have a go at,.....until we have "something",....at the moment we've got nothing.
LRO?...some of those U.k. mags are the greatest peddlars of "myth & hearsay" that I've ever heard of. One guy from LRO said He'd heard from a "Top Level JLR Exec", that the Defender line was "Definitely" going off shore", and production would continue!!!!.....and this from a main stream mag,....so I don't take too much notice. I even sent him an email telling he was talking rubbish, & should be more responsible before he went on with stuff like that!!...Didn't get a reply!!,
I'm not into Evoque types of vehicle either, but I guess plenty are, and Disco Sports etc.
I'm sure JLR could build a MAGNIFICENT "new" Defender if they wanted to, but whether they're interested in competing in a lower cost, (it'll have to be to compete), super popular bracket where there are a HUGE number of brands & massive competition,.....well I'm not so sure about that.
I reckon JLR are "killing 'em" at the moment,...every time I go into our Dealer, it's virtually impossible to talk to a sales person, they're always on the phone, with big smiles on their faces,....selling heaps,....buyers seem to just walk in & sign up!
So, until I know something, I don't have much of any value to say about a "New" Defender, except that, whilst I know NOTHING about it,...IF there is one, whatever it is, I reckon that the people at Solihull will make sure that it'll be Good.
Pickles.

[MrLandy]

It's not about critiquing a vehicle that doesn't yet exist. It's about criticising JLR for what really amounts to at least 20 years of inaction on redesigning Defender for the future. It's clearly been a very low priority for a long time, and it still is. JLR deserves to be roundly criticised.

VW came out and declared they were going head to head with Hilux...and that's exactly what they are doing with Amarok. McGovern saying similar things is clearly just platitudes covering for inaction, poor development design and frankly, it's hugely disrespectful towards the core of Land Rover design and function.

JaguarRover showing its true colours now with a pure focus on expensive, elitist, luxury focussed vehicles will backfire IMO. Not immediately because yes the dealerships are peddling the 'image' of adventure in a high tech armchair, drawing on the pedigree of Series/Defender vehicles. But now that this is gone, the ruggedness of LR vehicles will only further dissipate.

I don't agree that their current designers have the capability of building a serious heavy duty work vehicle. None of them would ever have driven one for work for a start. They are fixated with 'heritage' and image, fancy photo shoots, Barbour and hounds tooth fashion, high tech and biased market research. Not real world working robustness.

Bring on the next Isuzu work/adventure truck I reckon.

Defenders last forever anyway. That's really why sales are historically low.

Cheers

[Avion8]

If it wasn't for the price the Mercedes Benz G 350 d would seem to be what a Defender could be, automatic, front pax/driver airbags, 3 locking diffs, & even looks kind of nice in a Defenderish way. I would definitely consider one of these over a Range Rover & who knows next year when my UK pensions kick in I might just do that, but will still keep the Defender.

[stewie110]

If it wasn't for the price the Mercedes Benz G 350 d would seem to be what a Defender could be, automatic, front pax/driver airbags, 3 locking diffs, & even looks kind of nice in a Defenderish way. I would definitely consider one of these over a Range Rover & who knows next year when my UK pensions kick in I might just do that, but will still keep the Defender.
I am a huge fan of the g wagon my mate has. Unfortunately it's tough to get accessories etc. He also had to special import his because they don't offer the professional series in Australia via the dealers. The professional series has much tougher standard kit, including much bigger suspension, no low profile tires, much more basic interior. It's actually a direct defender competitor in Europe. Also not so crazily expensive.

Also check out their recent 4x4? stock 4x4 with portal axle for the civilian market. Currently only in concept phase, although being Mercedes the middle east tends to change that.

[Pickles2]

"G Wagon"?..Most definitely,...AMG G63 for me.
Pickles.

[Andrew86]

G Wagons are awful to drive, hideously expensive and driven almost exclusively by footballers' wives and botoxed soccer mums. That's the case in North America anyway. I don't see the appeal, personally.

It doesn't make sense for JLR to release a Defender that walks on the toes of the Discovery. McGovern has already said repeatedly that the Defender nameplate will represent a 'pillar' in the brand focused on more rugged, durable and affordable vehicles. Offshoring production to the new JLR facility in Slovakia is almost certainly part of that.

The new Defender will be more approachable to more people, be more comfortable, more capable and have more technology and safety features. That doesn't make it a betrayal to its predecessor, it just means they'll actually make money from it for once. The original car will always be special because it represents where it all started.

I love my Defender, but I'm properly excited to see what comes next given how far modern vehicles have come.

[stewie110]

G Wagons are awful to drive, hideously expensive and driven almost exclusively by footballers' wives and botoxed soccer mums. That's the case in North America anyway. I don't see the appeal, personally.

It doesn't make sense for JLR to release a Defender that walks on the toes of the Discovery. McGovern has already said repeatedly that the Defender nameplate will represent a 'pillar' in the brand focused on more rugged, durable and affordable vehicles. Offshoring production to the new JLR facility in Slovakia is almost certainly part of that.

The new Defender will be more approachable to more people, be more comfortable, more capable and have more technology and safety features. That doesn't make it a betrayal to its predecessor, it just means they'll actually make money from it for once. The original car will always be special because it represents where it all started.

I love my Defender, but I'm properly excited to see what comes next given how far modern vehicles have come.
Associated image with the non commercial / professional branding is exactly how you say.

Having driven my mates non fancy professional series it's a similar driving experience to the defender. I have not driven a fancy one.

[Pickles2]

G Wagons are awful to drive, hideously expensive and driven almost exclusively by footballers' wives and botoxed soccer mums. That's the case in North America anyway. I don't see the appeal, personally.

It doesn't make sense for JLR to release a Defender that walks on the toes of the Discovery. McGovern has already said repeatedly that the Defender nameplate will represent a 'pillar' in the brand focused on more rugged, durable and affordable vehicles. Offshoring production to the new JLR facility in Slovakia is almost certainly part of that.

The new Defender will be more approachable to more people, be more comfortable, more capable and have more technology and safety features. That doesn't make it a betrayal to its predecessor, it just means they'll actually make money from it for once. The original car will always be special because it represents where it all started.

I love my Defender, but I'm properly excited to see what comes next given how far modern vehicles have come.
Well said Andrew, you've covered everything, in a few short words, without any" ra ra ra" & I agree with you 100%.
Thanks, Pickles.

[jon3950]

It's not about critiquing a vehicle that doesn't yet exist. It's about criticising JLR for what really amounts to at least 20 years of inaction on redesigning Defender for the future. It's clearly been a very low priority for a long time, and it still is. JLR deserves to be roundly criticised.


No they don't.

You know my opinions on this and we'll just have to agree to disagree, but this statement is not justifiable.

Land Rover in various incarnations (JLR at present) have been hamstrung by previous owners from Leyland all the way to Ford. They have never been given the funds to properly invest in Defender and they have not had the choice to redirect funds from other projects.

Tata is the first owner (arguably in Land Rovers entire history) to invest properly in the product and to actually allow management to make decisions on which projects to invest in. Because they live in the real world and have to make money they have prioritised accordingly.

There is a strategy there and Defender is part of it. I am confident you won't like the replacement because it will be modern, with all that entails, which is the very antithesis of what Defender was. :)

Cheers,
Jon

[DiscoMick]

The design of the G wagon is as old as the Defender and I don't think it has what is needed to be a long term success in the future.
Its normal marketing practice to release a premium product first and then a series of cheaper products with aspects of the premium technology.
JLR already has the aluminium platform, engines, transmissions and technologies such as Terrain Response to build a killer new Defender. It will also be given the family grille.
Now its just a case of designing a range of body styles and pulling it all together in a viable business case.
I'm sure they can do it.

[steane]

This thread regularly makes me laugh. It seems JLR is the name of a charity not the name of an automobile manufacturer.

JLR the manufacturer will only build vehicles that they are certain they will make a substantial profit on. That's business.

Who cares if they don't make another Defender? Who cares if they do and it's all 'modern like'?

I don't and 99.99999999999999 percent of the world's population don't either.

Love the one your with and stop worrying about what might or might not be or what responsibility you wrongly think JLR has to anyone but its shareholders.

[MrLandy]

None of the ownership changes of Land Rover have hamstrung the development of every other model. I just no longer believe their spin.

As I have said many times, I would love to be proven wrong. Nothing would please me more than a new super innovative heavy duty work vehicle from Land Rover.

If the ridiculously overpriced GWagen can be updated with airbags etc, to win over the worlds working vehicle markets including military, as well as the bling markets, so can Defender. BUT it simply hasn't been done. And it won't be.

Whatever comes next will be soft and cushy because that's the Land Rover market now. Actions speak louder than words.

I know some of you vehemently disagree with me and that's cool. Really hope you're right! But I think it's over brothers.

Cheers

[manic]

Who cares if they don't make another Defender? Who cares if they do and it's all 'modern like'?

I don't and 99.99999999999999 percent of the world's population don't either.


I do and 99.99999999999999 percent of the world's population do too.

This is a LAND ROVER forum Steane. What 'real world' are you living in? Get with the programme!

[steane]

I do and 99.99999999999999 percent of the world's population do too.

This is a LAND ROVER forum Steane. What 'real world' are you living in? Get with the programme!

Yeah, I know it's a Land Rover forum and I love my Landy obsessively, but we shouldn't let emotional twaddle get in the way of reality.

I think my JLR programme must be missing a few pages... it goes up to 2025 and covers Discovery, Discovery Sport, Evoque, some interesting and expensive Range Rovers, a range of Land Rover dinner attire, a limited edition picnic rug and a set of hand made shot guns, but no Defender:o

OMG are you thinking what I'm thinking!

[Pickles2]

I do and 99.99999999999999 percent of the world's population do too.

This is a LAND ROVER forum Steane. What 'real world' are you living in? Get with the programme!
99.99........% of the world,.....etc etc,......man, what are you smokn'......I want some.
Pickles.

[jon3950]

None of the ownership changes of Land Rover have hamstrung the development of every other model. I just no longer believe their spin.


Yes they have. Rangie Classic, Discos 1 & 2 and P38A were all hampered by a lack of funding. BMW came in and funded the L322 because it suited them with the development of the X5. Same thing with Ford and the Disco 3, they wanted to push the brand upmarket and need something better than the then outdated Disco 2 to sit under Range Rover.

Fair enough not believing their spin, they do need to **** or get off the pot. The fact that the release date keeps getting pushed out is a concern. However everything you have heard is rumour. There are no concrete facts out there. I have several good contacts within JLR, both here and in the UK. I can tell you there is nothing coming out of that project team, apart from proposed release dates. When the replacement is released, and I'm pretty certain there will be a replacement, I don't think you will be proved wrong from your point of view.

I think what you want the replacement to be ignores the commercial reality of the world we currently live in. Vehicle design is in the process of making a paradigm shift to shorter life, recyclable, low impact vehicles - and I think the world will be better for it. This doesn't sit well with your requirement for a vehicle that will last forever.

Cheers,
Jon

[manic]

99.99........% of the world,.....etc etc,......man, what are you smokn'......I want some.
Pickles.
Diesel, no DPF (unfiltered). 77.777777% on aulro are smok'n it old school! :)

[cafe latte]

Yes they have. Rangie Classic, Discos 1 & 2 and P38A were all hampered by a lack of funding. BMW came in and funded the L322 because it suited them with the development of the X5. Same thing with Ford and the Disco 3, they wanted to push the brand upmarket and need something better than the then outdated Disco 2 to sit under Range Rover.

Fair enough not believing their spin, they do need to **** or get off the pot. The fact that the release date keeps getting pushed out is a concern. However everything you have heard is rumour. There are no concrete facts out there. I have several good contacts within JLR, both here and in the UK. I can tell you there is nothing coming out of that project team, apart from proposed release dates. When the replacement is released, and I'm pretty certain there will be a replacement, I don't think you will be proved wrong from your point of view.

I think what you want the replacement to be ignores the commercial reality of the world we currently live in. Vehicle design is in the process of making a paradigm shift to shorter life, recyclable, low impact vehicles - and I think the world will be better for it. This doesn't sit well with your requirement for a vehicle that will last forever.

Cheers,
Jon

Actually this is not true, a vehicle that has a long service life is far more green than one that is scrapped after a decade or so. When any car is made even so called new green models the steel needs to be smelted, the plastics made,actually it takes a huge amount of energy to make a car and a lot of carbon emitted just to make the car. Like a carbon debt if you like..
The reality is many modern green 'low impact' cars are not used for long enough before they are scrapped for that debt to balance out ie for the fact that they are low emissions to be worth while in the overall carbon emissions of the car.
Land Rovers however like the Defender may emit more in use but they have a very long service life which actually make them very green indeed. We need to stop kidding ourselves, how green is a little town car when in 10 years it is crushed to a cube? In my local dump there is a wall of crushed cars leaking oil and other rubbish, most are not that old, not green at all.
Chris

[jon3950]

Actually this is not true, a vehicle that has a long service life is far more green than one that is scrapped after a decade or so. When any car is made even so called new green models the steel needs to be smelted, the plastics made,actually it takes a huge amount of energy to make a car and a lot of carbon emitted just to make the car. Like a carbon debt if you like..
The reality is many modern green 'low impact' cars are not used for long enough before they are scrapped for that debt to balance out ie for the fact that they are low emissions to be worth while in the overall carbon emissions of the car.
Land Rovers however like the Defender may emit more in use but they have a very long service life which actually make them very green indeed. We need to stop kidding ourselves, how green is a little town car when in 10 years it is crushed to a cube? In my local dump there is a wall of crushed cars leaking oil and other rubbish, most are not that old, not green at all.
Chris

I'm inclined to agree with what you're saying Chris, although I've had this discussion with an environmental scientist who thinks the opposite. I think in reality it's a fairly complex argument and would depend on which vehicle you chose and what assumptions you made about it's usage.

Either way that's referring to vehicle manufacture as it has been. I am talking about vehicle manufacturing as it will be in 10 or 20 years from now. For example, the push by JLR to aluminium chassis is not just about weight saving, but about recyclability. More emphasis is being put on product life cycle costs and an obligation on the part of manufacturers to take the vehicle back at end-of-life. This is going to change how vehicles are made and the whole process of ownership.

Cheers,
Jon

[MrLandy]

The main reason JLR are currently successful is because they are focussed on selling very expensive cars into a very wealthy and wasteful economy which has very little concern for the environment. The whole idea of producing an aluminium body and chassis that is disposable and recyclable in the short term makes a mockery of the anti-rust longevity attributes of aluminium in the first place.

None of the above addresses the reasons why JLR has not been serious about updating the Defender, except that the market they have chosen to prioritise are those who are so wealthy they don't need to consider vehicle longevity or the environment. A culture of elite leases renewed on new vehicles every three years does not absolve JLR from totally dropping the ball on Defender, no matter how recyclable it may never be.

[Plutei]

Like a carbon debt if you like..
The reality is many modern green 'low impact' cars are not used for long enough before they are scrapped for that debt to balance out ie for the fact that they are low emissions to be worth while in the overall carbon emissions of the car.

What you're referring to is known as "Embodied Energy" and it is absolutely a very important factor in the 'greenness' of a vehicle, and it definitely strikes me that car service lives are very short. I think though that Jon makes some very good points regarding the direction of vehicle materials and handling in the future. More and more manufacturers are using recycled materials in their vehicles, and tyres and lead-acid batteries are incredibly successfully recycled. It would be good to see recycled materials used more and with longer service lives, as MrLandy mentions

Slightly off topic, but one area that many cite as a negative aspect of electric vehicles is that the batteries contain a bunch of valuable metals (nickel, manganese, cobalt, etc.) which require energy to mine, process, and manufacture, however lith-ion batteries are 100% recyclable (https://waste-management-world.com/a/1-the-lithium-battery-recycling-challenge) which can make the batteries much more green. Though, as Jon said, it is a very complicated issue, as at the moment the Lithium is not widely recycled due to the low cost of lithium brine extraction (note; the other valuable metals are recycled). Whether lithium prices will rise enough to make lithium recycling economically viable remains to be seen, but with the way battery use is going it is expected there's a good chance it'll happen.

[Plutei]

What do you lot think of the idea of an electric Defender? Before you jump down my throat, I'm well aware that battery tech is not at the stage that it could serve as a touring vehicle, but as an on site HD vehicle where range is not an issue there's a number of advantages:
- Low profile batteries lining the floor -> low center of gravity
- Small drivetrain frees up a huge amount of space
- Huge potential for a wide variety of modular body styles. With a ladder chassis consisting of a flat bed of batteries and integrated drivetrain you could put whatever you wanted on top. Forward control etc.
- Huge low down torque
- Very cheap to run with low maintenance. Electric drivetrains are far more simple than ICE vehicles.

[manic]

Electric defender would be the best IF

- diesel generator for extended outback milage 500km+ per tank.
- 250km+ battery range fully loaded
- electric hub motors, one per wheel, fully submersible, three can fail one will get you home.
- 16" wheels :p
- built to last

No gears, no diff locks required, no drive line to break. It would be fantastic!

[Wolfman_TWP]

Something like this maybe? Land Rover's first Electric Defender put through its paces (http://www.gizmag.com/land-rover-electric-defender/28624/)
:wasntme:

Wolf

[Plutei]

Electric defender would be the best IF

- diesel generator for extended outback milage + per tank.
- + battery range fully loaded
- electric hub motors, one per wheel, fully submersible, three can fail one will get you home.
- 16" wheels :p
- built to last

No gears, no diff locks required, no drive line to break. It would be fantastic!

Yep, electric hub motors is exactly what I had in mind. Total control over individual wheel speed too.

[YOLO110]

What do you lot think of the idea of an electric Defender? .

Yep!

Make it out of Carbon Fibre too... light, strong, will never rust!! :D

Seriously, the Alfa Romeo C has done this now at 'production' price levels... it's certainly a direction ahead if manufactures can get the costs down...

[Tombie]

Considering every time someone releases a "modern defender" concept all the purist LR people go "eww" I'm not at all surprised that LR are taking time to come up with something.

As for ridiculously expensive current range..

Holden some years ago said a new Holden would cost a years wage. (This was based on the avg wage)

Well, you can buy a Discovery 4 for the average Aussie wage... Go figure!!!!!

[JDNSW]

Yep!

Make it out of Carbon Fibre too... light, strong, will never rust!! :D

Seriously, the Alfa Romeo C has done this now at 'production' price levels... it's certainly a direction ahead if manufactures can get the costs down...

Brittle, hard to repair, and expensive - not sure that it is a good fit for a Defender replacement!

Carbon fibre reinforced plastic has its place in cars, but it is a fairly small place. They are not stronger than conventional materials - it is more rigid, which makes it possible to design structures that are lighter provided they are structures where ultimate strength is determined by Euler buckling. In tension or bending it is a lot weaker than conventional materials such as alloy steels, and is much more easily damaged by abrasion or impact than even aluminium.

John

[Tote]

Further to my comment above on the "Heavy Duty" market, I reckon Ram trucks have it pretty much wrapped up
4500KG towing with a ball, 6989KG with a pintle
5 Link coil sprung rear end
1084NM torque
Exhaust Brake
Leather seats
etc

Makes a Defender or a Landcruiser look pretty old fashioned

Regards,
Tote

[Tombie]

But Tote. A recurring theme here is people complaining about 9-11l/100km.

They'd have kittens with the Ram!!!

They are a nice bit of kit for their purpose.

[Tombie]

Capacity is not old fashioned though.

The fact such Caravans are so ridiculously heavy in the days of modern manufacturing and materials, combined with people's insistence on using ridiculous things and then towing them is the issue.

I've seen a custom built van with Granite bench tops, solid hardwood everything...

That's just bloody ridiculous!!!!

[jon3950]

The main reason JLR are currently successful is because they are focussed on selling very expensive cars into a very wealthy and wasteful economy which has very little concern for the environment. The whole idea of producing an aluminium body and chassis that is disposable and recyclable in the short term makes a mockery of the anti-rust longevity attributes of aluminium in the first place.

None of the above addresses the reasons why JLR has not been serious about updating the Defender, except that the market they have chosen to prioritise are those who are so wealthy they don't need to consider vehicle longevity or the environment. A culture of elite leases renewed on new vehicles every three years does not absolve JLR from totally dropping the ball on Defender, no matter how recyclable it may never be.

Geez MrLandy, I think you may be even more cynical about modern society than I am. :)

I get what you are saying about consumerism, but sadly that's the world we live in. In fact one of the reasons I bought my Defender was as my little protest against modern society and an up yours to the Porsche and Mercedes SUV drivers of which there are a lot around where I live.

I agree that the ball has been well and truly dropped on Defender development, but my point was its mostly been due to circumstances beyond Land Rover's control. Development stagnated after the Series 2 and has never caught up.

The simple reason they have not been serious about updating Defender is because they haven't had the funds to do it. Priorities have been set on luxury vehicles, mostly by owners external to the company who the approve funding, because of the commercial reality that those are the vehicles that make money.

There is a big difference between disposable and recyclable. Everything has a finite useful life. Even a vehicle that lasts 20 or 30 years will consume a lot in fuel, lubricants and parts and there will always come a time when it is no longer economical to run. Technology, safety, efficiency all move on and there are many good reasons why people no longer want to drive around in something that was built 30 years ago.

With that in mind, surely if a vehicle had an economic life of 10 years and was then able to be returned to the manufacturer for recycling into a new, more efficient vehicle, made more efficiently, using more efficient sources of energy, that would be a better use of resources than one that lasts for 20, even 30 years and was then just scrapped?

Anyway, I think one thing we could agree on is that this discussion would be much better had around a campfire, sharing a bottle of Laphroaig.

Cheers,
Jon

[MrLandy]

An electric Defender would be brilliant, solar powered even better. Same proportions, simplicity, rechargeable, hoseoutable, clean, economical, versatile, affordable ...How do we get around the fuel baron Neanderthals who can't see how fast the planet is heating up?!? and work out how to make it happen?

Technology is brilliant if it aims for simplicity. Design is brilliant when it achieves simplicity. Bring it on Land Rover, I dare you...

[Tombie]

Simplicity. You're an enigma. You've contradicted all you have previously stood by!

Electric vehicles are hardly simple.....

[manic]

Electric vehicles are hardly simple.....

They could be.

[Tombie]

They could be.



Really?!

IP rated drive motors rated to 1 meter for 30 min - sure somebody would exceed that and expect warranty..

Or controllers? Drive by wire requirements. Regulators, heavy cabling, then someone would want a lift and extend the cabling.

Cabling fouls on things or chafes.

Batteries need to go low, so susceptible to water ingress if fording exceeded.

Cells are prone to failure like any battery. Then what? Push start? [emoji48]


A decent electric vehicle is just as complex if not more than a CRD.

[Plutei]

Electric vehicles are hardly simple.....

I disagree with you there. While many electric vehicles are flagships chock full of "features", the drive train of an electric vehicle is far simpler in my opinion; less maintenance, fewer moving parts, less heat. Batteries aren't as simple as diesel of course, but they aren't going to fail spontaneously either.

[Tombie]

But batteries do fail spontaneously.
Motors will need either reduction gears
High voltage AC
High voltage Heating
Power control
Fly by wire throttle
Battery regulation unit
Battery charger
Electric power steering

That's assuming direct drive

If it's conventional then there is a gearbox/transmission, then transfer case..

Not so simplistic is it [emoji6]

[MrLandy]

Simplicity. You're an enigma. You've contradicted all you have previously stood by!

Electric vehicles are hardly simple.....

On the contrary Tombie, I've always said a re-design of Defender needs to be innovative as well as stay true to the original. And that I don't think the JLR designers will do so. I don't think anyone there really appreciates the potential or the design philosophy for bringing innovation together with a heavy duty simple and robust design classic. Which is why it hasn't happened. They keep doing it with Range Rover, but it's all too fancy and over blown for Defender.

[spie]

How about diesel electric [like a train]?

Say a 3cyl 1L engine happy to purr away at specific revs to generate the power, a few batteries and some supercapacitors for temp storage. Independent suspension on each corner and the electric motors drive portals :twisted:

[YOLO110]

An electric Defender would be brilliant, solar powered even better.

That would be interesting in the UK... the recovery services would be very busy!! :D

[DiscoMick]

An electric Defender would be brilliant, solar powered even better. Same proportions, simplicity, rechargeable, hoseoutable, clean, economical, versatile, affordable ...How do we get around the fuel baron Neanderthals who can't see how fast the planet is heating up?!? and work out how to make it happen?

Technology is brilliant if it aims for simplicity. Design is brilliant when it achieves simplicity. Bring it on Land Rover, I dare you...
When I compare my petrol lawn mower with my electric lawn mower, electric wins every time.

[Tombie]

When I compare my petrol lawn mower with my electric lawn mower, electric wins every time.



Agree.. But your mower doesn't cross rivers or deserts, mow snow or mud....


My electric shaver is pretty good too, the Petrol model never really appealed, kept waking the wife each morning when I had a shave. [emoji48]


All my comments related to is that Electric isn't simplistic..

[manic]

But batteries do fail spontaneously.
Motors will need either reduction gears
High voltage AC
High voltage Heating
Power control
Fly by wire throttle
Battery regulation unit
Battery charger
Electric power steering

That's assuming direct drive

If it's conventional then there is a gearbox/transmission, then transfer case..

Not so simplistic is it [emoji6]

You could make a CRD sound complicated if you wanted to.

An electric set up done right could be reliable and easier to maintain.

If it was done well you would look at it as simply your battery module, motor modules, generator module, ecu controller module. All connected with a tidy multi plug loom. Replacing a module could be made easy, servicing rarely required.

Electric motors are known to be very reliable and unless there is a design fault they are likely to outlast the car. A good IP rating that allows you to ford rivers shouldn't be too difficult. The requirement isn't that high at the moment, take a D4 for example, stuck up to the windows in a river for 15 minutes and its probably a right off.

Battery banks are slowly improving, currently Tesla use small cells that look similar to AA's http://instar.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/BatteryPack.jpg
and I'm sure they can develop them in ways that allow for a number of cells to fail whilst still providing service. A heads up for service/replacement will be given, so complete failure out bush could be made quite unlikely.

Power control
Fly by wire throttle
Battery regulation unit
Battery charger

That's all there already in a D4

The power steering, cabin climate control set up may not be so elegant but they are not mission critical. Bring back the defender bulkhead vents and they could make it optional :)

There is work to do, some problems to solve and costs need to come down a heap, but I think a Defender with a diesel generator for long haul, battery pack to drive clean around town and electric hub motors that deliver direct drive to each wheel offroad might just result in the most reliable, capable, best defender 4x4 by far! .... dreaming.

[MrLandy]

That would be interesting in the UK... the recovery services would be very busy!! :D

The UK gov has just slashed solar power installation subsidies by 65% because it was too successful.

They are 'investing' in massive nuclear instead. Blah blah... Same old crap. So many leaders both gov and business around the world are seriously stupid and so transparently self-interested it makes a mockery of human ingenuity, human rights and caring for the planet.

How about the new Land Rover 'Environment Defender' ?

[ozscott]

So is Jeep going to fill the gap of Defender driver's looking for an update....(it would want to be a much better and stronger product than Jeep's current crop.......!!!)

Jeep Wrangler four-door ute confirmed for Australia- Car News | CarsGuide (http://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/jeep-wrangler-four-door-ute-confirmed-for-australia-40562?utm_source=outbrain&utm_medium=outbrain&utm_campaign=ob_editorial)

There is a market begging to be filled, a market that wants a coil sprung (front and rear) workhorse with basic and rugged underpinnings.

Cheers

[MrLandy]

So is Jeep going to fill the gap of Defender driver's looking for an update....(it would want to be a much better and stronger product than Jeep's current crop.......!!!)

Jeep Wrangler four-door ute confirmed for Australia- Car News | CarsGuide (http://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/jeep-wrangler-four-door-ute-confirmed-for-australia-40562?utm_source=outbrain&utm_medium=outbrain&utm_campaign=ob_editorial)

There is a market begging to be filled, a market that wants a coil sprung (front and rear) workhorse with basic and rugged underpinnings.

Cheers

Yup, it's s massive market. Earth to Land Rover! Anyone there??

Tojo 70 about to drop out of it too.

[weeds]

Yup, it's s massive market. Earth to Land Rover! Anyone there??



Tojo 70 about to drop out of it too.



But there is already a dozen or so in the market......Land Rover will now be way behind the eight ball......no matter what Jeep or Land Rover do everybody still thinks both brands are unreliable......no matter how many times I tell people that my 110 never left me stranded (did have to carry out running repairs)

[ProjectDirector]

But there is already a dozen or so in the market......Land Rover will now be way behind the eight ball......no matter what Jeep or Land Rover do everybody still thinks both brands are unreliable......no matter how many times I tell people that my 110 never left me stranded (did have to carry out running repairs)


And especially after reading this with LR getting wooden spoon

http://www.carsguide.com.au/car-advice/how-reliable-will-your-new-car-be-40818

[scarry]

And especially after reading this with LR getting wooden spoon

How reliable will your new car be?- Car News | CarsGuide (http://www.carsguide.com.au/car-advice/how-reliable-will-your-new-car-be-40818)

Very close to Nissan.

The last couple of years of Defenders wouldn't have done LR any favours.

[rar110]

JLR will wait until the D5 is done before investing in Defender R & D. So serious investment won't start until 2017. I think they will go with a variation of an Ingenium motor with a single range wide ratio transmission. I'd be surprised if they initially offered a manual gearbox. I'm betting a T5 type body for the dual cab variant. Otherwise lightweight alloy mono body.

[ProjectDirector]

Very close to Nissan.



The last couple of years of Defenders wouldn't have done LR any favours.



Agree and there are 3 more years of warranty to be covered from now so 2019 for new defender might sound right

[steane]

Very close to Nissan.

The last couple of years of Defenders wouldn't have done LR any favours.

Yet despite the gloom, resale values are some of the highest and in the case of the now defunct Defender, the highest, although the below article was a bit early to pick up on that;

How to choose the right car to maximise resale value- Car News | CarsGuide (http://www.carsguide.com.au/car-advice/how-to-choose-the-right-car-to-maximise-resale-value-36880)

[DiscoMick]

JLR will wait until the D5 is done before investing in Defender R & D. So serious investment won't start until 2017. I think they will go with a variation of an Ingenium motor with a single range wide ratio transmission. I'd be surprised if they initially offered a manual gearbox. I'm betting a T5 type body for the dual cab variant. Otherwise lightweight alloy mono body.

D5 would be already done and well into production planning I think.

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[Tombie]

Indeed the future will be interesting.

I look forward to seeing what's to come, I won't be in a position to consider another vehicle for a while yet.

[MrLandy]

But there is already a dozen or so in the market......Land Rover will now be way behind the eight ball......no matter what Jeep or Land Rover do everybody still thinks both brands are unreliable......no matter how many times I tell people that my 110 never left me stranded (did have to carry out running repairs)

Which are the dozen or so heavy duty work vehicles in market? The proliferation of mid-duty dualcab utes don't count.

[MrLandy]

And especially after reading this with LR getting wooden spoon

How reliable will your new car be?- Car News | CarsGuide (http://www.carsguide.com.au/car-advice/how-reliable-will-your-new-car-be-40818)

So according to those figures virtually every new vehicle has a problem on average and the worst have two problems on average. Hmm splitting hairs?

Obviously in the real world some individual vehicles have many problems and some none. But that is across all makes and models.

Most interesting is the lack of take up of the refund or replacement for major failure law.

Ultimately a motor vehicle is an organism: it breathes, it consumes, it expels waste, it has a circulatory system, it's made of components derived from organic or earthly matter and it's made by humans or their robot extension arms. It's not surprising that some have congenital defects and that all need tlc.

[strangy]

Ridiculously over priced... Someone mentioned this in relation to a G Wagen.
I was looking with my son at dual cabs this week.
Hilux dual cab auto 70k . No accessories.
Seriously? Drum brakes and leaf springs. How did it arrive at that price? Ranger , BT 50?etc.
Stupid money for very little car.
Seriously drum brakes. There is no excuse for drum brakes in this century on a passenger vehicle.

I'm keen to see a new Defender. With Gadgets, but not mummy gadgets.
It just needs to be value for money AND not need to be replaced in 5yrs or so because the gizmos and contraptions are too flamin expensive to maintain or repair.

The new Defender if it arrives must be worth buying for purpose.
Not "good value" compared against some other vehicle.
Value for money- Something none of the dual cabs from any brand even resemble.

[rar110]

D5 would be already done and well into production planning I think. Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

When I say done, I mean in production and early market indications of success. The D5 is they're new cash cow. JLR need some assurance it will give a return before sticking their neck out and investing in a higher risk model.

[weeds]

Which are the dozen or so heavy duty work vehicles in market? The proliferation of mid-duty dualcab utes don't count.



the big sales numbers are in the mid-duty range.

I have a POS hi-lux.......sure I exceed GVM in touring mode but for the other 48 weeks of the year it's street ahead of the defender I owned.

[weeds]

Ridiculously over priced... Someone mentioned this in relation to a G Wagen.
I was looking with my son at dual cabs this week.
Hilux dual cab auto 70k . No accessories.
Seriously? Drum brakes and leaf springs. How did it arrive at that price? Ranger , BT 50?etc.
Stupid money for very little car.
Seriously drum brakes. There is no excuse for drum brakes in this century on a passenger vehicle.

I'm keen to see a new Defender. With Gadgets, but not mummy gadgets.
It just needs to be value for money AND not need to be replaced in 5yrs or so because the gizmos and contraptions are too flamin expensive to maintain or repair.

The new Defender if it arrives must be worth buying for purpose.
Not "good value" compared against some other vehicle.
Value for money- Something none of the dual cabs from any brand even resemble.


I took thought drum brakes on the POS Hi-lux........it brakes as good as any car out there, I haven't experienced any issues with brakes

Leaf springs....I would prefer coils like the new narvara

A SR hi-lux is nowhere near $70k...

Either way if there is ever a new defender (which I don't think there will be) but if there is it will be too end of pricing in the market space.

[DiscoMick]

So according to those figures virtually every new vehicle has a problem on average and the worst have two problems on average. Hmm splitting hairs?

Obviously in the real world some individual vehicles have many problems and some none. But that is across all makes and models.

Most interesting is the lack of take up of the refund or replacement for major failure law.

Ultimately a motor vehicle is an organism: it breathes, it consumes, it expels waste, it has a circulatory system, it's made of components derived from organic or earthly matter and it's made by humans or their robot extension arms. It's not surprising that some have congenital defects and that all need tlc.

One analysis said most of the probkems with new cars are actually things like the phone won't connect to the Bluetooth or the sat nav isn't working right or the trim gap is too large, so not mechanial at all.

[weeds]

One analysis said most of the probkems with new cars are actually things like the phone won't connect to the Bluetooth or the sat nav isn't working right or the trim gap is too large, so not mechanial at all.



Agree......I have four service vehicles in my fleet at work.

Two years and 100's of thousands of kilometers and not one mechanical issue and this is across four brands....to me the modern car is very reliable.

[tact]

99.99........% of the world,.....etc etc,......man, what are you smokn'......I want some.
Pickles.

Hahaha indeed. Outside of a LR forum 99.99999% of the world think your Defender and mine, is a......
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
JEEP!

[cuppabillytea]

:lol2:

[MrLandy]

:Rolling:

[cuppabillytea]

Mine was called a Jeep today. The poor bloke was quite embarrassed when I pointed to the LAND ROVER writ large across the bonnet. :p

[spudboy]

Ridiculously over priced... Someone mentioned this in relation to a G Wagen.
I was looking with my son at dual cabs this week.
Hilux dual cab auto 70k . No accessories.
Seriously? Drum brakes and leaf springs. How did it arrive at that price? Ranger , BT 50?etc.
Stupid money for very little car.
Seriously drum brakes. There is no excuse for drum brakes in this century on a passenger vehicle.


Hey Mark - You might be right about the HiLux, but I got a reasonably up-spec Ford Ranger 3.2 6 speed manual for $51K brand new. I didn't think that was so bad. It is an XLT (not the WildTrack) and apart from the drum brakes and rear leaf springs I can't fault it. Even with the primitive suspension, it is very comfortable.

I sold my Puma 110 to change to it, and have been very happy. Never ever thought I'd own a Ford, but I've been converted. Brilliant vehicle.

A lot what the Defender should have been if they'd invested something in it 5 or 6 years ago. 3.2 engine is grunty as, and you can get an auto if you don't want to change gears yourself. How about that in a Defender?

[Pickles2]

Yes Spudboy, the Ranger is obviously a very good vehicle, and is seriously challenging HiLux in some categories, the well matched 3.2 engine & 6 speed transmission appear to have the edge over the opposition..
A friend of mine has just taken delivery of the top of the Range model, Leather etc, (Wildtrak?), & is very happy with it.
Pickles

[MrLandy]

Enjoy your Ranger spudboy. If Defender's not for you that's cool, they're not for everyone. Most people want a more car-like vehicle. Cheers

[Beery]

I've had a Ranger for a work vehicle. Yeah they're nice to drive on the open road, but they have a woeful seating position for visibility and manouvering in tight spaces and off road. They are an on-road vehicle first and a 4wd as a distant second.

Sent from my ZTE T84 using AULRO mobile app

[MrLandy]

I've had a Ranger for a work vehicle. Yeah they're nice to drive on the open road, but they have a woeful seating position for visibility and manouvering in tight spaces and off road. They are an on-road vehicle first and a 4wd as a distant second.

Sent from my ZTE T84 using AULRO mobile app

Yes agreed Beery, the car-like seating position in dual cab utes is woeful. It's bad for backs on long trips, doesn't work in large vehicles, you sit too low, can't see over bonnet or sides and rear vision is terrible. Defender seating position and visibility is superior to any other 4X4 IMO.

[spudboy]

Enjoy your Ranger spudboy. If Defender's not for you that's cool, they're not for everyone. Most people want a more car-like vehicle. Cheers

Well, I have had a Series III, an ex-army FFR 110, a PUMA 110, a 130, a 90 and a 1955 Series I, (oh - and a slow old 2.5L petrol 110 in Africa) so I know a bit about Defenders...

And I agree that they have the best seating position, even if you do need to install MUD rails to make them comfortable if you are over 6' (although the Ranger is good for me too). Off-road, they are the best.

If they upped the reliability and the Dealer experience (and had some dealers out in the bundu), they would have nailed it.

[spudboy]

... but they have a woeful seating position for visibility and maneuvering in tight spaces and off road.

You can say that again. You can never tell how close you are to things at the front :(

[MrLandy]

If they upped the reliability and the Dealer experience (and had some dealers out in the bundu), they would have nailed it.

Absolutely agree, well said. ....No sign of the lack of dealers or service centres outside of cities improving either. The target market is urban centrics that's for sure. They should just revert to Rover, but even that doesn't work when you look at the root meaning of the word 'rove'.

I suspect you are one of many thousands who will now leave the Land Rover brand.

[spudboy]

The Ford is just an 'interim' vehicle. I am waiting (patiently) to see what the new Defender is going to be.

By the time they release it, it will be 2018. Then 2 years of user testing to see what breaks and needs re-designing. They'll do a 'facelift' model with all the fixes.

So about 2020 would be a good time to buy a new Defender I reckon :D

I was a guinea pig with one of the first PUMAs in Aust, so won't be doing that again!

[MrLandy]

No such thing as an interim vehicle when there's nothing confirmed as coming after it. ...my advice, dont hold your breath. Whatever / IF something comes next it won't be a Defender, but something more like a Ford Ranger I'd suggest. ...which will make your sold 'interim' vehicle even more valuable.

[Summiitt]

Land Rover should have looked (and competed)at how mercedes made a comeback into the commercial ute(government market). They hit the ADF contract hard and won it, that gave mercedes a stepping stone into other government utilities. Vic CFA have ordered heaps of 4x4 and 6x6 fire units, (300 units?) and I know of other government rural fire agencies doing the same, as there is no other vehicle on the market other than the Iveco that can carry every thing required on a fire ground. I enquirer about buying a G wagen commercial ute but it's a minimum order of 20. Landrover have dropped the ball big time and should have been more proactive in developing and adapting the current defenders for these applications. I'm running 5 defender Utes at the moment but have a dmax and an amarok in the mix as a test because I can't buy defenders any more, and can't justify the stupid prices of any second hand ones..

[Avion8]

Land Rover should have looked (and competed)at how mercedes made a comeback into the commercial ute(government market). They hit the ADF contract hard and won it, that gave mercedes a stepping stone into other government utilities. Vic CFA have ordered heaps of 4x4 and 6x6 fire units, (300 units?) and I know of other government rural fire agencies doing the same, as there is no other vehicle on the market other than the Iveco that can carry every thing required on a fire ground. I enquirer about buying a G wagen commercial ute but it's a minimum order of 20. Landrover have dropped the ball big time and should have been more proactive in developing and adapting the current defenders for these applications. I'm running 5 defender Utes at the moment but have a dmax and an amarok in the mix as a test because I can't buy defenders any more, and can't justify the stupid prices of any second hand ones..

Maybe we could do an AULRO group buy - 20 is not that many?

[Tombie]

Land Rover should have looked (and competed)at how mercedes made a comeback into the commercial ute(government market). They hit the ADF contract hard and won it, that gave mercedes a stepping stone into other government utilities. Vic CFA have ordered heaps of 4x4 and 6x6 fire units, (300 units?) and I know of other government rural fire agencies doing the same, as there is no other vehicle on the market other than the Iveco that can carry every thing required on a fire ground. I enquirer about buying a G wagen commercial ute but it's a minimum order of 20. Landrover have dropped the ball big time and should have been more proactive in developing and adapting the current defenders for these applications. I'm running 5 defender Utes at the moment but have a dmax and an amarok in the mix as a test because I can't buy defenders any more, and can't justify the stupid prices of any second hand ones..



Do some more research!

The ADF wanted a "one supplier provides all" and LR have no big fleet (Mogs, Trucks etc)..

LR therefore had no chance.

[Summiitt]

Agreed, starting price of $85k cab chassis which I thought was ok, given the price of the competition..

[MrLandy]

Land Rover should have looked (and competed)at how mercedes made a comeback into the commercial ute(government market). They hit the ADF contract hard and won it, that gave mercedes a stepping stone into other government utilities. Vic CFA have ordered heaps of 4x4 and 6x6 fire units, (300 units?) and I know of other government rural fire agencies doing the same, as there is no other vehicle on the market other than the Iveco that can carry every thing required on a fire ground. I enquirer about buying a G wagen commercial ute but it's a minimum order of 20. Landrover have dropped the ball big time and should have been more proactive in developing and adapting the current defenders for these applications. I'm running 5 defender Utes at the moment but have a dmax and an amarok in the mix as a test because I can't buy defenders any more, and can't justify the stupid prices of any second hand ones..

Great post Summitt. Totally agree. They had a choice but squandered it over decades. And they still have a choice, but they're squandering it on nostalgic nonsense and inaction.

[Summiitt]

Do some more research!

The ADF wanted a "one supplier provides all" and LR have no big fleet (Mogs, Trucks etc)..

LR therefore had no chance.

Tombie, landrover was in the box seat to push the defender regardless of winning another ADF contract, they should have had the gear and knowledge to enter in non ADF contracts, they weren't interested in progressing the defender..very simple

[Tombie]

Tombie, landrover was in the box seat to push the defender regardless of winning another ADF contract, they should have had the gear and knowledge to enter in non ADF contracts, they weren't interested in progressing the defender..very simple



And why would they?

Mine fleet not interested
Commercial fleet not interested
Logging fleet not interested

It's an ergonomically wrong vehicle, it's got no chance of meeting ANCAP 4 let alone 5/6.
It had no provision for airbags due to design restrictions and tooling to change would be nigh on impossible.

You don't progress a 50+ year design, you put it to pasture and look for the next thing..

**** me - the rose coloured glasses in here are amazing.

I love my Land Rovers, but I haven't read such a ridiculous amount of BS in my life.
The Defender is a Dinosaur in a digital age, much like it seems several in these threads.

The Defender was the MOST expensive vehicle LR produced, has the lowest sales figures, and EU (a real market) pressure and laws said its time was up...

So whether you ****ing like it or not, it was doomed.

People who only look at Aussie markets have no idea how insignificant we really are...

[scarry]

And following on,the Aussie LR market is about 3% of the LR world market.

So why would they listen to anyone here?

[Tombie]

Great post Summitt. Totally agree. They had a choice but squandered it over decades. And they still have a choice, but they're squandering it on nostalgic nonsense and inaction.



Nostalgic nonsense?

Like refusing to acknowledge that the design has run its course?
Refusing to accept the next vehicle may well be very superior to the current one?
There is no play in the sector for a 130 now - I certainly can not see why when there are Iveco, Fuso, F250, Dodge Ram etc all capable of 4.5-6t towing and a full load in the tray...

LRs biggest fear is the replacement being shunned by stuck up *******... Like pretentious Defender owners who refuse to acknowledge the breadth of capability in other LR models - and yet hardly use the capability of theirs - whilst continually ****ing harping on about it...

They didn't have a choice - there was no R&D budget for decades...

Only recently has the company been in a position to commence serious development into a replacement.

Every time a concept comes out Luddites criticise and belittle everything about it - imagine that nightmare as a vehicle CEO/Marketing/Design Team perspective.

Sadly it seems several Defender drivers have devolved to the point of being derogatory to anyone in a LR but not in a Defender.

[jon3950]

Do some more research!

The ADF wanted a "one supplier provides all" and LR have no big fleet (Mogs, Trucks etc)..

LR therefore had no chance.

Plus Ford stopped them tendering.

[jon3950]

And following on,the Aussie LR market is about 3% of the LR world market.

So why would they listen to anyone here?

They certainly haven't, but our market is growing. From what I hear it seems we may be getting to the point where we may at least have a seat at the table.

Cheers,
Jon

[Summiitt]

Land Rover need to make the next vehicle above and beyond what's currently available. Rose coloured glasses may be for those who don't rely on vehicles for a living, but even if the defender continued I doubt I would buy one unless the 130s were sub $50k. My ute purchases are purely dollar for km and the defenders have held up well, I'd buy an F350 tomorrow but I know I can't get it into or out of the road conditions I run every day. Tombie, you shouldn't assume everyone one this forum is an armchair critic, I've had nearly every make of heavy duty and not so heavy duty ute in my fleet over the years in serious off-road service the defenders hold up well but agreed they need a replacement , I dont give a crap about ergonomics, load it to gvm, drive it and make sure it gets you home..no rose coloured glasses here.

[manic]

Nostalgic nonsense?

Like refusing to acknowledge that the design has run its course?
Refusing to accept the next vehicle may well be very superior to the current one?
There is no play in the sector for a 130 now - I certainly can not see why when there are Iveco, Fuso, F250, Dodge Ram etc all capable of 4.5-6t towing and a full load in the tray...

LRs biggest fear is the replacement being shunned by stuck up *******... Like pretentious Defender owners who refuse to acknowledge the breadth of capability in other LR models - and yet hardly use the capability of theirs - whilst continually ****ing harping on about it...

They didn't have a choice - there was no R&D budget for decades...

Only recently has the company been in a position to commence serious development into a replacement.

Every time a concept comes out Luddites criticise and belittle everything about it - imagine that nightmare as a vehicle CEO/Marketing/Design Team perspective.

Sadly it seems several Defender drivers have devolved to the point of being derogatory to anyone in a LR but not in a Defender.

Chill out a little. This thread is about the end of the defender, and how we would like to see it replaced.

You are now the one being derogatory, as much as any other. From memory I recall numerous threads where you have called defender owners luddites and the vehicle a dinosaur relic etc etc. When done tongue in cheek, fine......

There has only been one replacement concept and it was not well received because it did not demonstrate enough of the qualities found in the original Defender. If Land Rover want to get it right they should listen to the criticism from defender fans/owners. Should we have been more loyal, clapped and cheered just because it was new and it had a defender badge on it?

Without the defender Land Rover only supply the luxury suv market. So of course there are going to be many on here that will hope for a replacement that is distinctly different from the current models. And that shouldn't be seen as criticism from 'stuck up *******'!

[Pickles2]

Land Rover should have looked (and competed)at how mercedes made a comeback into the commercial ute(government market). They hit the ADF contract hard and won it, that gave mercedes a stepping stone into other government utilities. Vic CFA have ordered heaps of 4x4 and 6x6 fire units, (300 units?) and I know of other government rural fire agencies doing the same, as there is no other vehicle on the market other than the Iveco that can carry every thing required on a fire ground. I enquirer about buying a G wagen commercial ute but it's a minimum order of 20. Landrover have dropped the ball big time and should have been more proactive in developing and adapting the current defenders for these applications. I'm running 5 defender Utes at the moment but have a dmax and an amarok in the mix as a test because I can't buy defenders any more, and can't justify the stupid prices of any second hand ones..
""Landrover" should have looked at"?....If you examine the "history" of Landrover over the years, through the British Leyland , BMW & Ford periods etc, you may wish to have a look at that wording.
"Landrover" itself had plenty of ideas, but was constrained by its owners at the time, who were simply not interested, mainly because of shortage of dollars, or in some cases, because they had models of their own brand that they wished to promote.. In fact, if one does look at its history, Defender was considered obsolete by many 20 yrs ago, & it was actually very lucky that it survived as long as it did, albeit with insufficient development/improvements, in ANY form.
Pickles.

[MrLandy]

It would also be too easy to argue in reply that Land Rover now ONLY makes vehicles for stuck up poseurs, but I won't. They now only make luxury vehicles.

The idea of disurbanity has come true at Land Rover. It's now more about projecting the image of adventure, of nature, of superiority. We have witnessed the end of production of a vehicle of beautiful simplicity; the end of a humble, pragmatic, design icon. No more rever, no more wandering. Land Roving is over.

Roving now only means being cocooned in nappa leather, carpet and faux woodgrain, in silent high tech smoothness. Every mod con to remove oneself from nature. Road Roving? Space Roving perhaps? But no longer Land Roving.

It's got nothing do with being a Luddite or not liking the new. It's about the new not being fit for purpose. It's not about nostalgia, it's about a lack of foresight and critiquing design choices. Lack of resources hasn't done anything to slow development of every other Land Rover model.

It's about what some people find important, the tactility of nature, going beyond the surface skein, bush pragmatism, loading sheep poo in the back, timber on the roof, and not caring about scratches and dents on or off the track.

The end of production of Series/Defender is just that. The end. Whatever comes next will be something different and I doubt it will be able to be hosed out.

[ramblingboy42]

One of the recurring things I keep hearing is the "ability to be hosed out".

I don't know anyone who has "hosed out" their Land Rover , but I don't mind hearing from those who have.

If you are talking about washing the floors with a bit of water , then thats not special, I know people who have shampooed their carpet.....nothing wrong with that.

I don't think a defender would take too kindly to being hosed out......unless its at very low pressure.

I think a lot of posters just quote others because it sounds good.

[MrLandy]

Hosed mine out last week at the high pressure car wash, from back seat floor right through, out both side doors and rear door.
Cheers

[Greg4427]

To be honest when I read "hosed out" I consider it a euphemism for hardiness and utility, not specifically literally, although it seems some do ha ha.

[Tombie]

I have hosed out my Defender floor in the past, handy when covered in mud for sure.

I still had to lift the mat and vacuum the water out so it didn't rust - so it's not quite a simple hose out job...

I shall attempt to describe why Having modern conveniences isn't making the vehicles unfit for purpose.

At the Company all the vehicles were high spec level (all Toyota) the tray backs, dual cabs, Prados and the cruisers were all GXL spec.

What they did have was - factory Canvas seat covers and incredible rubber floor mats..

The vehicles were operated in dust, mud, water, getting covered inside and out with a mix of red, white, grey, black, brown dust and mud..

The operators would be in and out of these vehicles, also covered in the same material..

And you know what... A simple vacuum, a wipe down of the dash and a damp cloth across the seat covers had it clean to go..

At EOL they would be detailed for 4-6 hours and you'd be hard pressed to know the hard life they had..


The point was (within the comfort they offer) each vehicle was fitted from factory with "sound deadening, carpet, A/C, electric Windows" the tray backs had aftermarket cruise fitted...


As for being out in the country in the DEFENDER vs more equipped models.
That's what windows are for. [emoji6]

I spent the entire post Melrose trip with windows down, the D4 was full of dust post trip, and we cleaned it up and it looks great...

The guys in the Defenders did exactly the same.

Every generation of vehicle could be claimed to take the purity of adventure away - an old 56 smashing the kidneys would be about as close to adventure in a vehicle that could be had...

[Disco Muppet]

Darien Gap, camel trophy, G4 challenge, Trek in the US all prove that the rest of the Land Rover range, from the first classic range rover to the latest D4 are all capable of 'Land Rovering'


Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

[scarry]

I have hosed out the Puma a few times,we have a slope at our place so the water runs out,easy done.Removable mats all removed,front mats lifted up and left for a couple of days,so the floors dry out properly.All the large self tappers in the floor panels, were replaced with stainless a few years back,to reduce rust which appeared on all the old ones.

Back on topic(sort of),apparently in the UK,there are very few new vehicles that are rated to tow 3.5T on the market,apart from luxury vehicles.

Another hole the Defender used to fill.

[manic]

The defender was not made obsolete from the new models, there has been no suitable replacement. So now we wait.

We are not questioning the offroad abilities of the new range. We are talking about a utility model that is capable of serving the many roles the 110,130,90 have been used for over the years.

There is a void, but does land rover need to fill it? Sad if they don't.

[Tombie]

There is a void, but does land rover need to fill it? Sad if they don't.


There in lies the big question...

Do they need to? Is the market already saturated?
What do people want in a new model?

Do people want simplicity (almost impossible with tech / emissions requirements)

Does the market want comfort and utility?

[strangy]

A number of points raised here have significant merit.

Something many haven't considered (overall) that I'm sure many manufacturers have.
You don't need 4wd in most places around the world.
Sorry folks but most of the "romanticised" journeys people kit up for (in Oz) are traversed by very old and sad Falcons and Commodores regularly.
4wd of any description is typically not required to see the countries great points of interest anymore For the most part it's a status symbol and a wealthy mans game.
So manufacturers are aiming at wealthy recreational 4wd ers.
No need for no nonsense no frills pioneering machinery in this market anymore.

I wonder how many would want to go flying around the world in machines that were still utilising post WW2 tech.

Thats why any new Defender will be a very good machine indeed or a complete flop.
Just one of my many wandering thoughts😀

[Daz7]

I feel you have to look to the likes of Jeep (no matter how you feel about them) to see that a more utility type of vehicle build is still a worthwhile exercise. To the point, that Jeep have confirmed a pickup version of Wrangler in the 2017 model release.

[Tombie]

I feel you have to look to the likes of Jeep (no matter how you feel about them) to see that a more utility type of vehicle build is still a worthwhile exercise. To the point, that Jeep have confirmed a pickup version of Wrangler in the 2017 model release.



Yes. I think they're targeting those who want to haul a Chook chaser etc.

I doubt it will be a large capacity unit..

However, in the USA market alone that would sell enough to survive.

[cjc_td5]

I would think that today the heavy commercial 4wd users lean towards a light truck rather than a landcruiser or defender. Much like buses are preferred over 11 seat troopys. That leaves the recreational market for a defender replacement.

I use my d4 every day as a site vehicle and am not afraid to get mud or sand inside. The sheer livability of it make it a joy to use every day.

If Landrover were to use the d4/5 t5 platform, with a body with wagon/ute styles with styling qs back to the defender (much the same as a FJ cruiser does to a FJ40), they will be on an absolute winner.

Cheers
Chris

[Toxic_Avenger]

On the jeep note, I hope this becomes a reality. I'm smitten.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DrkXC0Hokk

[MrLandy]

The FJ Cruiser is a dog of a design. It represents the worst of nostalgic infatuation. Please.

[Tote]

It would also be too easy to argue in reply that Land Rover now ONLY makes vehicles for stuck up poseurs, but I won't. They now only make luxury vehicles.

The idea of disurbanity has come true at Land Rover. It's now more about projecting the image of adventure, of nature, of superiority. We have witnessed the end of production of a vehicle of beautiful simplicity; the end of a humble, pragmatic, design icon. No more rever, no more wandering. Land Roving is over.

Roving now only means being cocooned in nappa leather, carpet and faux woodgrain, in silent high tech smoothness. Every mod con to remove oneself from nature. Road Roving? Space Roving perhaps? But no longer Land Roving.

It's got nothing do with being a Luddite or not liking the new. It's about the new not being fit for purpose. It's not about nostalgia, it's about a lack of foresight and critiquing design choices. Lack of resources hasn't done anything to slow development of every other Land Rover model.

It's about what some people find important, the tactility of nature, going beyond the surface skein, bush pragmatism, loading sheep poo in the back, timber on the roof, and not caring about scratches and dents on or off the track.

The end of production of Series/Defender is just that. The end. Whatever comes next will be something different and I doubt it will be able to be hosed out.

I would have to disagree, My D3 with all its creature comforts, factory rear locker and low profile tyres was a more capable vehicle on all fronts than my Defender 130. By the way, the D3 met it's end towing a load of sheep from Warren to Boorowa.
Now, off to go and buy some more accessories for the 130 to make it perform the way I want it to.......


Regards,
Tote

[manic]

I would have to disagree, My D3 with all its creature comforts, factory rear locker and low profile tyres was a more capable vehicle on all fronts than my Defender 130. By the way, the D3 met it's end towing a load of sheep from Warren to Boorowa.
Now, off to go and buy some more accessories for the 130 to make it perform the way I want it to.......


Regards,
Tote

Sell your 130?

[MrLandy]

Not more capable than a load of sheep? hmmm

[Tote]

Sell your 130?

Nope, it was the best choice out there when I needed a replacement for the D3.
Requirements:
Touring vehicle for two adults and two kids, including some adventurous tracks
Vehicle to cart said family out to our farm
Capable of towing a fully loaded tandem trailer ~2 tons payload
Preferably a steel tray

Contenders:
Defender 130 DC
Ranger Wildtrack ( pickup body removed and tray fitted)
Toyota 78 Dual Cab
Dodge Ram 2500

Decision points:
Dodge too expensive by about 30K
Toyota capable but the interior is very 1980s plastic and was 10K dearer than a Defender
Wildtrack a very close choice - major disadvantages came down to the cost of lifting it and a Bullbar when compared with the 130 which does not need lifting and the Bullbar was about $1400.00 Resale value also played a part as I think a MY16 130 will retain value better than a Ranger.

If the Defender replacement has the interior comfort levels and dynamics of a D3 whilst still meeting the criteria above I'll be buying one next time.

Regards,
Tote

[MrLandy]

Nope, it was the best choice out there when I needed a replacement for the D3.
Requirements:
Touring vehicle for two adults and two kids, including some adventurous tracks
Vehicle to cart said family out to our farm
Capable of towing a fully loaded tandem trailer ~2 tons payload
Preferably a steel tray

Contenders:
Defender 130 DC
Ranger Wildtrack ( pickup body removed and tray fitted)
Toyota 78 Dual Cab
Dodge Ram 2500

Decision points:
Dodge too expensive by about 30K
Toyota capable but the interior is very 1980s plastic and was 10K dearer than a Defender
Wildtrack a very close choice - major disadvantages came down to the cost of lifting it and a Bullbar when compared with the 130 which does not need lifting and the Bullbar was about $1400.00 Resale value also played a part as I think a MY16 130 will retain value better than a Ranger.

If the Defender replacement has the interior comfort levels and dynamics of a D3 whilst still meeting the criteria above I'll be buying one next time.

Regards,
Tote

...so why wasn't a D4 on the list of contenders? if as you argue, Discoveries are "more capable on all fronts than your Defender 130".

[Tote]

A D4 does not have a tray...........

Regards,
Tote

[MrLandy]

A D4 does not have a tray...........

Regards,
Tote

Would you have bought a D4 if it came as a dualcab ute?

[Disco Muppet]

I'd be lining up for one!
I know a few people in my field (mining and exploration) who would be queuing up for one too.

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

[Tote]

I'd be in the line behind Muppet......

The attraction of a Dodge Ram is that they have a liveable interior as well as having load carrying and towing capacity. One of my gripes with even the Wildtrack is that it just does not have the level of comfort that you can get in a wagon.
It will be interesting to see how the Ram 1500 goes if the Australian importer can persuade fiat Chrysler to do it in RHD.

Regards,
Tote

[MrLandy]

Interesting. $80K+ Luxury work vehicles is clearly a new market. I was thinking that the mid weight dualcab market was booming because of affordability and that Defenders were the most affordable heavy duty option.

(The economy must be looking pretty good. Certainly no business tax cuts required!).

[Tote]

My 130 was $65K with no tray, a custom tray will add $4 - 5K from there. There seem to be plenty of dual cab cruisers around as well and you don't get much change from $80K from them. Ranger Wildtrack is also around $65 - 68K
The Iveco Daily is around $85K as well.

The NP Navara is about $10K cheaper but does not have the capacity or space of the other two.
I'd say that the going price for a heavy Duty dual cab is around the $70 - 80K price range

Regards,
Tote

[spudboy]

When I was looking for something to replace my PUMA, in more of a ute style, this was about the only thing that got my pulse racing a little bit.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/06/809.jpg

Settled for a Ford Ranger due to $$ and the 'reliability factor' of an IVECO, but if you were looking for something hard-core I can't think of anything else with the same capability.

I'd say that a number of people who would have bought a new Defender as a workhorse, would consider one of these.

[strangy]

Hey Mark - You might be right about the HiLux, but I got a reasonably up-spec Ford Ranger 3.2 6 speed manual for $51K brand new. I didn't think that was so bad. It is an XLT (not the WildTrack) and apart from the drum brakes and rear leaf springs I can't fault it. Even with the primitive suspension, it is very comfortable.

I sold my Puma 110 to change to it, and have been very happy. Never ever thought I'd own a Ford, but I've been converted. Brilliant vehicle.

A lot what the Defender should have been if they'd invested something in it 5 or 6 years ago. 3.2 engine is grunty as, and you can get an auto if you don't want to change gears yourself. How about that in a Defender?
Thanks for that info.
Seems the Ranger will get the nod over the other offerings at this stage.
..and yes definitely agree that motor box combo is nice and would be a very nice conversion for a Defender.
Shopping with the boy has been an experience.

IMO the Ranger is the most appealing (NB* appealing not necessarily best) out of the offerings and...if it came with discs and coils- I probably wouldn't choose the Defender over it.

I keep looking at all my mods on the Defender and most are tech upgrades and comfort features ie auto, power options, seating. The rest is just the usual accessories tossed on any make.
I figure if that's my minimum spec on an old project Defender, then it has to translate to that and more for most others on anything new.
I think the concept of a work vehicle has changed for the most part, with utes being more about an urban tough/cool accessory than a "no nonsense" tool.

[strangy]

I like the facelift on the Iveco...mmm

[MrLandy]

Glad I got my HD 2014 Defender for $50K then.

Most mid duty dual cabs are $35-40K. 70 series cruisers have always been a rip off.

[Toxic_Avenger]

I'd be in the line behind Muppet......

The attraction of a Dodge Ram is that they have a liveable interior as well as having load carrying and towing capacity. One of my gripes with even the Wildtrack is that it just does not have the level of comfort that you can get in a wagon.
It will be interesting to see how the Ram 1500 goes if the Australian importer can persuade fiat Chrysler to do it in RHD.

Regards,
Tote

Had the pleasure of sitting my arse in a 3500 Laramie... what a beast. I don't think there's a chair in my entire house that is nearly as comfortable as the captains chair in that vehicle...
Not to mention the big displacement cummins diesel. Dat sound...

[MrLandy]

The RAM Laramie is the most ridiculous looking vehicle, and not comparable with a Defender whatsoever. Nor is the IVECO. Both are simply massive.

[Toxic_Avenger]

The ram and every other full size utility (pick up truck) are fit for purpose.
And for this reason, I'm actually happy to know that these vehicles are getting imported.

I think they look sexy, not ridiculous.
Its not as spartan as a 130... and carrys tows a lot more for a much higher price... but then again, who's complaining if they see the value in spending an extra 40K to get a entirely suitable vehicle for long distance, heavy towing.
If I had my way, every grey nomad would have one so they can actually keep to the speed limit :D

[Pickles2]

But Ram=BIG dollars does it not?....$100K+?....Defender should not be considered in that class.
If the "New" Defender is to be in that price range, then I would suggest that a very impressive vehicle would be the result.
Pickles.

[MrLandy]

The only vehicles currently comparable to Defender are: Toyota 70 series and Mahindra. Mercedes GWagen is too expensive and more comparable with Range Rover IMO.

[cuppabillytea]

What should the price of a defender replacement be?

[Andrew86]

The only vehicles currently comparable to Defender are: Toyota 70 series and Mahindra.

What makes a Mahindra more comparable to a Defender than a Hilux or Ranger?

[MrLandy]

Mahindra is closer in size, but yes you're correct, it barely compares.

New Defender price? $50-60K max

[cafe latte]

Mahindra is closer in size, but yes you're correct, it barely compares.

New Defender price? $50-60K max

I own both a Defender and a Mahindra and they are closer than you might think. Both the Defender and the Mahindra are simple inside just about everything else on the road apart the Totota 76 and the merc are too full of electronics. Mahindra had an almost identical seating position to the Defender which gives amazing visibility, most other utes have a car like driving position. Size wise the Mahindra is comparible to the Defender too. Underneath clearances of the Mahindra are also similar to the Defender, and the Mahindra has diff lock too unlike most other utes, even the Defender does not have that. Lightly modded Mahindra with mine spec mods will go places that probably only a Defender will especially with the diff lock. The Mahindra also looks a bit querky and there is a Mahindra wave thing going on like the Defender. I love my Defender and it is one car I hope to always own, but dont underestimate the Mahindra.
Chris
Edit, the only thing really I can say negative about the Mahindra is the finish inside could be a little better, mind you Defender where hardly great inside either in the past.

[MrLandy]

Thanks Chris, your comparo btw Defender and Mahindra is winning me over. In terms of design refinement and longevity do you think they compare? Are they more light duty like hilux etc despite comparable size and driving position?

[cafe latte]

Thanks Chris, your comparo btw Defender and Mahindra is winning me over. In terms of design refinement and longevity do you think they compare? Are they more light duty like hilux etc despite comparable size and driving position?

Time will tell re longevity, but everything underneath is heavy duty and massive, it has to be to cope with the flogging they get in India massively overloaded on roads that are hardly roads at all. So no I dont think they are more like a hilux. I helped a friend change the springs on his Hilux a few weeks ago and I was shocked how small the diffs are.
Friend knows someone who drives regularly to Darwin in his Mahindra and he has clocked up 475,000km in his Mahindra and he says it still runs like new. I dont know how much 4x4 stuff he has done, but enough people have bush bashed them to prove their worth in this respect.
Where Defender wins is their almost cult following and huge parts availability. Almost nothing is not worth fixing proved by some of the projects undertaken here. Mahindra are just too cheap to bother with fixing up past a certain point and a brand new one is only 25k anyway. As things get more complicated new though this may change you never know..
Chris

[MrLandy]

Ok great, so now it's down to Mahindra and Tojo 70 series then.

Is Mahindra at risk of not meeting any emissions or crash safety rules?

Does anyone know end of production date for 70 series?

[MrLandy]

If I was redesigning Defender, I would keep the exact same shape and dimensions, forgo the rivets, build with new manufacturing technology, on new HD underpinnings that are crash compliant and re-design HD live axle running gear, keep separate transfer case as option.

If Mahindra can update design so it's compliant, there's no reason Land Rover can't, except that they don't seem to want to.

[cafe latte]

If I was redesigning Defender, I would keep the exact same shape and dimensions, forgo the rivets, build with new manufacturing technology, on new HD underpinnings that are crash compliant and re-design HD live axle running gear, keep separate transfer case as option.

If Mahindra can update design so it's compliant, there's no reason Land Rover can't, except that they don't seem to want to.

True, Mahindra has a new model out soon that looks to be an improvement on the old one and compliant too. Why oh why could Land Rover not done the same with the Defender? :(

[MrLandy]

True, Mahindra has a new model out soon that looks to be an improvement on the old one and compliant too. Why oh why could Land Rover not done the same with the Defender? :(

Because their priorities have changed and they're now entirely focused on the urban / luxury market. They used the excuse of emissions and safety as their way out. They never intended to seriously redevelop Defender. They've spared no expense on all other models and they would have done the same for Defender by now if they were serious.

It's why they came out with an fj cruiser type nostalgia design for the urban funkster market. That got rejected. Now they have no idea what to do. None of their designers, managers or marketing boffins want to design a work truck because it's no longer their market priority. Which is death to the Land Rover brand in the long run IMO. It's been obvious for years. Look at their priorities.

You only have to walk into a JLR showroom now and it's very stark. Without any Defenders on the floor and with the attitude of sales staff it's clear. Land Rover is a luxury brand only now. That's why they have no idea how to re-design a heavy duty pragmatic working vehicle like Defender. Which is why there is no confirmed new design, why the arbitrary date keeps getting pushed back ...and why Defender is finished.

[JDNSW]

True, Mahindra has a new model out soon that looks to be an improvement on the old one and compliant too. Why oh why could Land Rover not done the same with the Defender? :(

Because:-

The the design is tied to manufacturing techniques that were based on a large, relatively cheap pool of skilled labour and a shortage of machinery (so minimum machinery required). And for production in small numbers. Redesigning it for manufacture using modern methods and large scale production would require a complete redesign. Making it compliant would almost certainly be possible, but would also mean a full redesign. If you are going to put this effort in, why not start with a clean sheet.

The Mahindra is a 1970s or 1980s design - the Defender is a 1940s design, as far as manufacturing technique goes. (And the design of any manufactured product is controlled to a very large extent by the manufacturing facilities available - the Mahindra was designed for technology available in the 70s and 80s, the Defender was designed for facilities available in a war devastated Britain in 1947)


John

[MrLandy]

Yes that's certainly what it needs, a full redesign. However not from a clean sheet. Why not start with a clean sheet? ...because a clean sheet is blank, devoid of what makes Series/ Defender Land Rover so iconic.

[jon3950]

Yes that's certainly what it needs, a full redesign. However not from a clean sheet. Why not start with a clean sheet? ...because a clean sheet is blank, devoid of what makes Series/ Defender Land Rover so iconic.

So if you don't start with a clean sheet, which particular components do you feel must be retained in their current form to maintain the iconic status?

[scarry]

Almost everything,or the Defender enthusiasts won't be happy;)

[MrLandy]

So if you don't start with a clean sheet, which particular components do you feel must be retained in their current form to maintain the iconic status?

As I said above...Dimensions, shape, form, aluminium, driving position, 4 coils, 4 discs, clearance, live axles, flat floors, big chassis, sep transfer case, etc

[cafe latte]

As I said above...Dimensions, shape, form, aluminium, driving position, 4 coils, 4 discs, clearance, live axles, flat floors, big chassis, sep transfer case, etc

I agree it is not so hard, Mahindra almost did it apart a bit funny looking. A new Defender needs to have the clearance be as strong simple etc ( Jeep can do it and stay legal). No reason (again look at Jeep Wrangler) Land Rover cant make a decent compliant Defender just like the one we know and love if Jeep can why cant Land Rover?
Chris

[MrLandy]

Why can't they? Because they don't want to.

[cuppabillytea]

I think it could be better if it bore no resemblance to previous Land Rovers at all. What if it was entirely electric? What if it had a motor in each hub and no live axil at all? What if it had Torsion bar Suspension? What if it had no Ladder Chassis but a series of box frames which encapsulated the Operator and passenger spaces, from which everything was supported, including a cargo tray. It could outperform everything else on the market. It could be as Spartan or as luxuries as you like. IT COULD BE BLOODY AMAZING.

[Tombie]

As I said above...Dimensions, shape, form, aluminium, driving position, 4 coils, 4 discs, clearance, live axles, flat floors, big chassis, sep transfer case, etc



Dimensions the same?

A defender is the Anti-Tardis. Huge outside and small inside... [emoji56]

At least make it 6" wider.

[MrLandy]

I think it could be better if it bore no resemblance to previous Land Rovers at all. What if it was entirely electric? What if it had a motor in each hub and no live axil at all? What if it had Torsion bar Suspension? What if it had no Ladder Chassis but a series of box frames which encapsulated the Operator and passenger spaces, from which everything was supported, including a cargo tray. It could outperform everything else on the market. It could be as Spartan or as luxuries as you like. IT COULD BE BLOODY AMAZING.

Sounds fantastic Love it! Bring it on. ...but it won't be a Defender. If it's entirely new, drawn on a clean sheet, it'll need a new name. But yes something truly innovative like that could revive Land Rovers cred.

[MrLandy]

Dimensions the same?

A defender is the Anti-Tardis. Huge outside and small inside... [emoji56]

At least make it 6" wider.

Have to disagree Tombie. Mine actually gets called the tardis. It has the most useable internal space of anything but a van IMO. Yes the rear door could be wider, but then you'd lose those great corners to store items in! Yes you could have a bit more elbow room, but then you'd lose that svelte ability to see directly below you and pick your way through narrow gaps when off roading, or simply parking. Yes the front windscreen could be bigger, but then you'd lose the shade! ...

[cafe latte]

Dimensions the same?

A defender is the Anti-Tardis. Huge outside and small inside... [emoji56]

At least make it 6" wider.

Or make the massive box between the seats 6 inches narrower and move the seats away from the doors or am I being too radical? :D
Chris

[Tombie]

Or make the massive box between the seats 6 inches narrower and move the seats away from the doors or am I being too radical? :D

Chris



Hand brake & Left Calve may disagree..

[Tombie]

Sounds fantastic Love it! Bring it on. ...but it won't be a Defender. If it's entirely new, drawn on a clean sheet, it'll need a new name.



This I totally agree.

This is a new machine that's coming. Retire the Defender name and come up with something else.

[MrLandy]

If it's a new Defender but with the same dimensions, etc, the whole seat, steering column, pedals could come in board a little, depending on engine and gearbox used. This is what I would do if I were the designer.

If it's an entirely new vehicle, it could be anything. BUT then it's not a Defender (as above) and this thread doesn't make sense. It needs a whole new thread IMO...Fantastical Land Rover revolution vehicle?

[steane]

It should be called OFFENDER and come standard with electric drive, autonomous mode, radar guided rockets, jumbo sized cup holders and a 'Maccas Hook' to hold the road-trip breakfast.

[Pickles2]

Sounds fantastic Love it! Bring it on. ...but it won't be a Defender. If it's entirely new, drawn on a clean sheet, it'll need a new name. But yes something truly innovative like that could revive Land Rovers cred.
"Revive Landrover's Cred"?!!!....Lol.
You cannot be serious. Landrover has more "Cred" at the moment than most other manufacturers on the planet.
Even totally "yuppy" vehicles like the Evoque Convertible (i'd never buy one!) are finding massive acceptance, with long waiting lists.
Just read the Press, & ya'll find Landrover has MASSIVE "Cred",....just because you, nor I, nor anyone else, knows what the "New" Defender will be, certainly does not mean, Landrover has lost its "Cred".
Whilst I appear to be the originator of this thread, I've largely stayed out of it of late, because there's just so much "pontificating" by certain members, who are talking about something about which they, nor any-one else, knows anything about, it's just plain silly.
One thing I'm certain of, well no not certain, but hopeful of, is Landrover's record of recent years, which is that every vehicle they've produced has been a well designed, well thought of,...WINNER.....and I am certain that is what the "New" Defender will be. It will be well thought out, it will be well designed, and it will be,...... a "winner"......in whatever configuration it appears.
The only thing I would like to see, & probably the only aspect of this discussion upon which we agree, is that if the vehicle is very "different", then I would like the Defender name to be discontinued,....regardless of how good the "New" vehicle is.
Pickles.

[MrLandy]

"Revive Landrover's Cred"?!!!....Lol.
You cannot be serious. Landrover has more "Cred" at the moment than most other manufacturers on the planet.
Even totally "yuppy" vehicles like the Evoque Convertible (i'd never buy one!) are finding massive acceptance, with long waiting lists.
Just read the Press, & ya'll find Landrover has MASSIVE "Cred",....just because you, nor I, nor anyone else, knows what the "New" Defender will be, certainly does not mean, Landrover has lost its "Cred".
Whilst I appear to be the originator of this thread, I've largely stayed out of it of late, because there's just so much "pontificating" by certain members, who are talking about something about which they, nor any-one else, knows anything about, it's just plain silly.
One thing I'm certain of, well no not certain, but hopeful of, is Landrover's record of recent years, which is that every vehicle they've produced has been a well designed, well thought of,...WINNER.....and I am certain that is what the "New" Defender will be. It will be well thought out, it will be well designed, and it will be,...... a "winner"......in whatever configuration it appears.
The only thing I would like to see, & probably the only aspect of this discussion upon which we agree, is that if the vehicle is very "different", then I would like the Defender name to be discontinued,....regardless of how good the "New" vehicle is.
Pickles.

Who's Pontificating about nothing? ..."One thing I'm certain of, well no not certain, but hopeful of..."

Yes pickles we are all flying blind here. One thing I do know is that JLR have put nowhere near as much effort into coming up with a Defender replacement as they have in developing all other models for many many years. Defender is over. Therefore any discussion about a fanciful new blank sheet model development really belongs in a new thread. Perhaps you'd like to start one if you think your perspective is the one that really counts?

Without Defender, Land Rover's cred as a manufacturer of serious 4X4 vehicles is significantly diminished. The lineage is broken and the brand is now 100% focussed on the luxury market. Just like Volvo, BMW, Porsche, etc. not much off road cred there I would suggest.

[manic]

Land Rover will have their defenders on the road for many years to come. If they release a weak replacement the original land rovers will be well looked after. Long live the defender!

[Pickles2]

Who's Pontificating about nothing? ..."One thing I'm certain of, well no not certain, but hopeful of..."

Yes pickles we are all flying blind here. One thing I do know is that JLR have put nowhere near as much effort into coming up with a Defender replacement as they have in developing all other models for many many years. Defender is over. Therefore any discussion about a fanciful new blank sheet model development really belongs in a new thread. Perhaps you'd like to start one if you think your perspective is the one that really counts?

Without Defender, Land Rover's cred as a manufacturer of serious 4X4 vehicles is significantly diminished. The lineage is broken and the brand is now 100% focussed on the luxury market. Just like Volvo, BMW, Porsche, etc. not much off road cred there I would suggest.
Mate, here you go again,..."One thing I do know is that JLR have put nowhere.........."
The fact is, you can't say "I do know", because in actual fact, you don't know anything, you have no idea, neither do I, neither does anyone else, what JLR is doing re Defender. How can you say "I do know", when the fact is, you don't, and neither does anyone else.
Landrover "lost its Cred"......jeez, in its first year Evoque sold over 100,000 units, Defender at the time selling between 13/15000 units before the last minute rush. with that sort of "contribution" to sales, it's a wonder they're doing anything,....actually, maybe you, & certainly me, wish they weren't!
There is a possibility, well maybe not in your mind, that because of the "delay" with the new Defender, JLR are not in any hurry, because they actually DO want to "get it right",....so that they will sell more than 13/15000 units a year.
My "perspective" on the "new" Defender?....I don't have one, I have no idea at all,...but, if there is to be one, I'm confident that whilst it may not be to the liking of us "traditional" Defender "enthusiasts", it will compete on the world stage very well, just as everyone of JLR's releases of late have done.
Pickles.
NB: All IMHO of course Mr. Landy,...nothing wrong with good discussion!

[MrLandy]

Cheers Pickles. If only we were sitting around a campfire together right now! :)

Yup Land Rover certainly now have huge cred in projecting the image of escapeism for urban adventurers, I'm not disputing that. But it's not the type of cred I value in a vehicle and I don't see many positive signs, over the past ten years at least, of LR seriously valuing any market other than luxury urbanity.

[Pickles2]

Cheers Pickles. If only we were sitting around a campfire together right now! :)

Yup Land Rover certainly now have huge cred in projecting the image of escapeism for urban adventurers, I'm not disputing that. But it's not the type of cred I value in a vehicle and I don't see many positive signs, over the past ten years at least, of LR seriously valuing any market other than luxury urbanity.
"Sitting Around A Campfire"?...agree!!, I'd be in that.
Regards, Pickles.

[DiscoMick]

I think JLR are doing very well at expanding themselves from a niche manufacturer towards a major auto company.
Of course, that means change. There's no doubt of that.
For example, their largest sellers (Evoque, Disco Sport) are the vehicles the traditionalists sneer at the most. JLR is laughing all the way to the bank.
I can't see any reason why JLR can't build a great new Defender. They have all the bits already available to them, they just have to put them together in the best way for a durable work truck..

[MrLandy]

Yup you'd think so Mick wouldn't you. So why haven't they?

[Pickles2]

I think JLR are doing very well at expanding themselves from a niche manufacturer towards a major auto company.
Of course, that means change. There's no doubt of that.
For example, their largest sellers (Evoque, Disco Sport) are the vehicles the traditionalists sneer at the most. JLR is laughing all the way to the bank.
I can't see any reason why JLR can't build a great new Defender. They have all the bits already available to them, they just have to put them together in the best way for a durable work truck..
BUT,...it ain't as easy as that.
The landscape has changed totally sinse Rover designed & built the original "Land Rover" (copied by Toyota with Land "Cruiser" not long after), where it had NO competitiion....NONE.
There is so much competition, and much of it, (most of it?) in a relatively low price bracket, that maybe JLR does not want, or feels it does not even need, to compete with, in this environment.
"Sentimentality" doesn't count for much in business these days, where every post needs to be a winner,...so I say,...if JLR decide to divert from "traditionalism", & design a totally different Defender, well good luck to them, 'cause if I was a shareholder, that is exactly what I'd want them to do, rather than worry about what 15,000 people who "liked" the "original" Defender, in it's last years of production.
Pickles.

[manic]

rather than worry about what 15,000 people who "liked" the "original" Defender, in it's last years of production.

My mental worldwide survey returned millions of people liking the original defender, in principle.

You may have got your surveys mixed up... I think it's only 15,000 adults in the world that have never heard of the original land rover "defender". 😁 :D

[Pickles2]

My mental worldwide survey returned millions of people liking the original defender, in principle.

You may have got your surveys mixed up... I think it's only 15,000 adults in the world that have never heard of the original land rover "defender". �� :D
"Millions" maybe, "liked" it, but more importantly, how many "BOUGHT' it?
Pickles.

[jon3950]

As I said above...Dimensions, shape, form, aluminium, driving position, 4 coils, 4 discs, clearance, live axles, flat floors, big chassis, sep transfer case, etc

You need to consider the regulatory environment that exists now compared to 1948. The problem with the current dimensions and shape is there is not enough room to provide the required level of occupant safety - just look at how thin the doors are and what can fit in there. They cannot keep the vertical front end as consideration now needs to be given to pedestrian impact.

I know you like the driving positon, but for most its an ergonomic nightmare. The command driving position is good, but it can be done a lot better now. It has to have more passenger space. I find it ridiculous driving a four door vehicle the size of a 110 and not being able to fit passengers in the rear seat. It was designed around post-war malnourished poms - we've moved on from there.

It would be nice if it kept the look of the current shape, but it needs to be a modern interpretation without being retro.

Interesting that coils and discs are part of its iconic nature but for most of its life it had leaf springs and drum brakes.

I also find it interesting that the Defender name is considered iconic when its a relatively recent creation done for marketing purposes.

I think what will be important in the new design will be the capability of the overall package, rather than the individual details used to achieve it.

Cheers,
Jon

[manic]

"Millions" maybe, "liked" it, but more importantly, how many "BOUGHT' it?
Pickles.

2,016,933 sold... that might even be true!

[SG1 Bones]

I am going to through a curve ball and ask if there are any older generations on here that remember what the atmosphere was like when Land Rover went from being a Series to Defender. Maybe it will be a similar situation when/if there is a Defender predecessor. Considering that if it wasn't t for the Series models there would be no Defender and hence the 'New Defender'. [emoji848][emoji846]

Nathan.

[frantic]

In the dual cab ute/ wagon derivative world it's going to get very interesting soon!
Firstly VW are finally going to put the v6 tdi3.0litre into the amarok, there's been rumours of a wagon version since 2012.
The very interesting one is the 4way partnership with Nissan/ Renault taking a controlling interest in Mitsubishi as well as having a joint development of a commercial ute with Mercedes Benz. Basically the 2019 navara will be a common underpinnings for merc, Renault and Mitsubishi to personalise with different skin and possibly engines.
This would be giving some food for thought at jlr over the next gen defender.

[numpty]

I am going to through a curve ball and ask if there are any older generations on here that remember what the atmosphere was like when Land Rover went from being a Series to Defender. Maybe it will be a similar situation when/if there is a Defender predecessor. Considering that if it wasn't t for the Series models there would be no Defender and hence the 'New Defender'. [emoji848][emoji846]

Nathan.

The Defender wouldn't have lasted long in production if it hadn't been for the success of the Discovery, as the Disco was the bread and butter that Land Rover relied on.

That aside, I bought a Stage 1 in 1987 as the 110's (as were) were far too expensive. It was to be 19 years before a Defender appeared in my driveway.

[Pickles2]

In the dual cab ute/ wagon derivative world it's going to get very interesting soon!
Firstly VW are finally going to put the v6 tdi3.0litre into the amarok, there's been rumours of a wagon version since 2012.
The very interesting one is the 4way partnership with Nissan/ Renault taking a controlling interest in Mitsubishi as well as having a joint development of a commercial ute with Mercedes Benz. Basically the 2019 navara will be a common underpinnings for merc, Renault and Mitsubishi to personalise with different skin and possibly engines.
This would be giving some food for thought at jlr over the next gen defender.
Hello my friend.
What is the power & torque of the 3L V6 going into the Amarok?
You mention Navara. Do you remember the Navara "550"?..discontinued around a year ago I think,... V6 turbo diesel, 170KW, 550NM,..can't understand why they discontinued it,...I've spoken to a few owners,....who absolutely love it.
Pickles.

[Xtreme]

The Defender wouldn't have lasted long in production if it hadn't been for the success of the Discovery, as the Disco was the bread and butter that Land Rover relied on.

That aside, I bought a Stage 1 in 1987 as the 110's (as were) were far too expensive. It was to be 19 years before a Defender appeared in my driveway.

Prices of 110's did skyrocket in the mid eighties with the introduction (in '83 IIRC) of the Isuzu County with coil springs and permanent 4WD - they actually doubled in price from '83 to '87. The County represented a huge change mechanically from the Series III.

I bought a new Isuzu County in late 1983 and (regretfully now) sold it by tender 10 years later for more than I paid for it - such was the market at the time.

[DiscoMick]

Hello my friend.
What is the power & torque of the 3L V6 going into the Amarok?
You mention Navara. Do you remember the Navara "550"?..discontinued around a year ago I think,... V6 turbo diesel, 170KW, 550NM,..can't understand why they discontinued it,...I've spoken to a few owners,....who absolutely love it.
Pickles.
The latest 4 x 4 Australia has a story about the V6 going into the Amarok, but I can't remember the numbers.
Imagine the new Defender with LR's 3.0 V6 diesel - that would be something.

[manic]

If Land Rover are committed to keeping it real...

it will be a 2 litre twin turbo with 8 speed manual transmission.....

It will be placed in a wind tunnel to make sure it can properly stop wind...

the interior noise will be finely tuned so you cannot hear any complaints....

[manic]

This article on Jaguars 'nostalgia' division is interesting.


"Nostalgia-starved audiences and relatively cheaper costs make older vehicles prime candidates for car companies' identity-defining halo cars. As big manufacturers and smaller design firms continue chasing the trend, it might mean that the stylish, simple, soulful cars of yesteryear could stick around for years to come."

BBC - Autos - Why Jaguar (http://www.bbc.com/autos/story/20160606-can-a-reborn-classic-compete-with-a-high-tech-hypercar)

[vnx205]

I am going to through a curve ball and ask if there are any older generations on here that remember what the atmosphere was like when Land Rover went from being a Series to Defender.
... .... ....

Nathan.

You are asking about relative youngsters if you are asking about the change from Series to 110 and Defender.

Some of us remember the change from Series I to Series II.

Some, like John might be old enough to remember when there was no such thing as a Land Rover.

:D:D:D

[Tote]

If Land Rover are committed to keeping it real...

it will be a 4 litre twin turbo Diesel v8 with 8 speed manual transmission.....

It will be placed in a wind tunnel to make sure it can properly stop wind...

the interior noise will be finely tuned so you cannot hear any complaints....

Just fixed that sentence up for you :D
it will be a 4 litre twin turbo Diesel v8 with 8 speed manual transmission.....

Regards,
Tote

[manic]

Just fixed that sentence up for you :D
it will be a 4 litre twin turbo Diesel v8 with 8 speed manual transmission.....

Regards,
Tote

Nah, the engines gotta work just as hard as the driver!

[ozscott]

https://youtu.be/NwQ1g1HfPOU

St Pierre gives his reason why LR not as the huge German over landing expo (D4 owners don't watch)

Cheers

[scarry]

He loves those incredibly un#%@^&#%$^&??????.defenders??:D;)

oh well,everyone is open to their opinions i suppose.

[Tombie]

And he's probably right... I must admit I wouldn't be cutting my roof off my D4 to fit a pop up roof.. [emoji12]

However - if they made a "D4" tray back - yes I would!!!

[Andrew86]

If Land Rover are committed to keeping it real...

it will be a 2 litre twin turbo with 8 speed manual transmission.....

There will be a range of engine, wheelbase and spec levels to choose from, McGovern has said that multiple times. I think the smaller Ingenium engines will feature pretty heavily, with a nice V6 somewhere in the mix too.

I'm also secretly hoping for an SVR model at the top of the chain with the 5.0 supercharged petrol engine from the RRS. Because I'm a child and I like silly things :D

[cuppabillytea]

And I'm Hoping there will also be an all Electric option, because I'd like to see something that is utterly new, ground breaking and innovative. And I'm a complete fruit loop. :p

[MrLandy]

And I'm Hoping there will also be an all Electric option, because I'd like to see something that is utterly new, ground breaking and innovative. And I'm a complete fruit loop. :p

So are most geniuses CBT

[scarry]

And I'm Hoping there will also be an all Electric option, because I'd like to see something that is utterly new, ground breaking and innovative. And I'm a complete fruit loop. :p

We all knew that, just weren't game enough to tell you:D:D:angel:




:wasntme:

[cuppabillytea]

You can tell me anything. I won't bite. :angel:

[ramblingboy42]

"Sitting Around A Campfire"?...agree!!, I'd be in that.
Regards, Pickles.

This is the best post in this thread so far.....

Lets do it.

Somewhere central to everyone....somewhere like Innamincka area sounds good.

Done over one of our nations long weekends sounds good to me.

Who's in it?


Dennis

[Xtreme]

This is the best post in this thread so far.....

Lets do it.

Somewhere central to everyone....somewhere like Innamincka area sounds good.

Done over one of our nations long weekends sounds good to me.

Who's in it?

Dennis
Innamincka's a bit far for most to travel for a long weekend so I'd suggest having a series of state gatherings in October (is the October long weekend a National one?) and combining it with ................
Celebrating the 15th Year Anniversary of AULRO

[JDNSW]

...... (is the October long weekend a National one?) ....

No, NSW, ACT, Qld, SA, according to my calendar.

John

[cuppabillytea]

Is this not the Land of The Long Weekend? :wasntme:

[manic]

It's an issue close to the heart of this great land, so let's meet at Uluru. Tell the boss "I'm off for a week, gotta burn some wood and figure stuff out" . We shall return with plans to build the replacement right here in Australia. We might call it the "Drover Lander Contender" !

[Tombie]

Is this not the Land of The Long Weekend? :wasntme:



Yep.. That's where all those penalty rates come from [emoji48]

Oops, wrong thread [emoji48][emoji48][emoji48][emoji48][emoji48]

[Tombie]

It's an issue close to the heart of this great land, so let's meet at Uluru. Tell the boss "I'm off for a week, gotta burn some wood and figure stuff out" . We shall return with plans to build the replacement right here in Australia. We might call it the "Drover Lander Contender" !



And apparently has to be completely identical to the last one but different in almost every mechanical regard... [emoji12]

[cuppabillytea]

Yep.. That's where all those penalty rates come from [emoji48]

Oops, wrong thread [emoji48][emoji48][emoji48][emoji48][emoji48]

Yes Wrong thread. I'll need penalty rates to go back to that one. :wasntme:

[manic]

And apparently has to be completely identical to the last one but different in almost every mechanical regard... [emoji12]


All to be considered. :).

Or maybe we do as the Chinese do so successfully; reverse engineer! And like land rover we can make good use of the parts bin.....

We go out bush, disassemble all our cars into components and cherry pick parts to build one mutant super rover. With the remaining parts we build chariots and the mutant rover will tow us all home victorious!

Something a bit bitter than this.

https://youtu.be/zpvGrkPKrnc

[MrLandy]

It's an issue close to the heart of this great land, so let's meet at Uluru. Tell the boss "I'm off for a week, gotta burn some wood and figure stuff out" . We shall return with plans to build the replacement right here in Australia. We might call it the "Drover Lander Contender" !

Good call Manic. But too many Gerry McGoverns around a camp fire might be risky! :p

Ha ha....The pushmepullyou mutant rover! Like it! And it's the perfect metaphor for LR indecision.

[ProjectDirector]

All to be considered. :).

Or maybe we do as the Chinese do so successfully; reverse engineer!




More like COPY and the final result is very low quality

[AndyG]

And I'm Hoping there will also be an all Electric option, because I'd like to see something that is utterly new, ground breaking and innovative. And I'm a complete fruit loop. :p

Lucas returns you masochist

[cafe latte]

Lucas returns you masochist

If there is an electric version and you get one and Lucas is involved you will become a fruit loop for sure :D
Chris

[cuppabillytea]

Lucas returns you masochist


If there is an electric version and you get one and Lucas is involved you will become a fruit loop for sure :D
Chris

The Prince of Darkness scares me not. :twisted:

[Greg4427]

Do you think the quality of the build got better towards the end?

[last90]

Hi guys,
new to the site, not sure if there has been a discussion regarding rear seating in the current 90 series, if so apologies, but I'm looking for any option in replacing or modifying the rear seats in the 90.

[Tote]

Do you think the quality of the build got better towards the end?

I'm pleasantly surprised by the build quality of my Nov 15 build 130. In next week for it's 20K service and nothing to do but the service....

Regards,
Tote

[Pickles2]

I'm pleasantly surprised by the build quality of my Nov 15 build 130. In next week for it's 20K service and nothing to do but the service....

Regards,
Tote
That would be one of the last 130s?
Pickles.

[DiscoMick]

My 2009 has been fine so far since we bought it, but the clutch was replaced by the first owner.

[Tote]

That would be one of the last 130s?
Pickles.

I reckon so but I'm not sure how you would figure that out.


Regards,
Tote

[Plutei]

Hi guys,
new to the site, not sure if there has been a discussion regarding rear seating in the current 90 series, if so apologies, but I'm looking for any option in replacing or modifying the rear seats in the 90.

Hey mate, welcome. This thread is specifically for the end of defender production and rumour milling about the new one.

For your question, have a look through these results
https://www.google.com.au/webhp'sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=site:aulro.com+90+rear+seats

[DiscoMick]

I saw this on an English website, but it can't be right with that rear cross member and chassis.
Someone on that site claimed to have seen the new Defender and said it was nothing like the picture.
More photoshop speculation?

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[Toxic_Avenger]

I saw this on an English website, but it can't be right with that rear cross member and chassis.
Someone on that site claimed to have seen the new Defender and said it was nothing like the picture.
More photoshop speculation?


That is to the Defender, what the Iron Pig FJ55 was to the FJ cruiser.

[MrLandy]

It's a sign of the times that despite there being six 4WD/SUV categories! in this years Drive car of the year, there is not one working 4WD vehicle, let alone category.

...And not one Land Rover! Presumably no new models in 2016? Hmm...what a farce. I wonder which category new Defender would have been in if it had been released in 2016 as originally touted...Best Faux SUV?

Anyway, the demise of Defender in this context makes total sense. It's just that the 'context' we are all being shoehorned into is so narrow for such a wide brown land. Obviously none of us ever really leave the city. And if we do it's in a less than 3 year old all road crossover vehicle with complimentary roadside assist.

Aspirational urbanity, an adventurous and diverse nation does not make. Stay in the city and fantasise about going to the desert. Polish the faux chrome roll bar. Bring on the virtual reality Land Rover game...at least there might be a Romance of the Camel Trophy adventure. Pimp my virtual 90.

...and the winner of the official 4WD category.....Ford Everest Trend :Rolling:
...Everest? Trend? Says it all.

[cripesamighty]

" ...Everest? Trend? Says it all. "
Oh, so true....

Also, please don't tell my nearly 20yo D1 it can't leave the city. It's last trip was through 3 states and didn't miss a beat in the 11,500km it covered in all sorts of terrain. With 90% of it's mileage as country and offroad driving, it would probably have a giant sulk! :D

[ozscott]

Check out the MC versus MA rating of Everest... Very limited tyre size choice there. Cheers

[Pickles2]

It's a sign of the times that despite there being six 4WD/SUV categories! in this years Drive car of the year, there is not one working 4WD vehicle, let alone category.

...And not one Land Rover! Presumably no new models in 2016? Hmm...what a farce. I wonder which category new Defender would have been in if it had been released in 2016 as originally touted...Best Faux SUV?

Anyway, the demise of Defender in this context makes total sense. It's just that the 'context' we are all being shoehorned into is so narrow for such a wide brown land. Obviously none of us ever really leave the city. And if we do it's in a less than 3 year old all road crossover vehicle with complimentary roadside assist.

Aspirational urbanity, an adventurous and diverse nation does not make. Stay in the city and fantasise about going to the desert. Polish the faux chrome roll bar. Bring on the virtual reality Land Rover game...at least there might be a Romance of the Camel Trophy adventure. Pimp my virtual 90.

...and the winner of the official 4WD category.....Ford Everest Trend :Rolling:
...Everest? Trend? Says it all.
Well, now that you are "back", I note that you are still maintaining your place as No1 "Mr. Negative", with respect to ANYTHING with respect to the "New" Defender,...despite the fact that you, nor anybody else, knows anything.I can't remember anything positive from you.
The fact is, you, nor me, nor anyone else can to be totally negative about anything, because the simple fact is, neither you, nor I, nor anyone else, has anything to be totally negative about,..... because we know, absolutely,...NOTHING.
Of course I know nothing either, however, EVERY vehicle released by JLR of recent date, has been an outstanding success, in its "category.". Consequently, whilst I know nothing, I will be happy to rely on the brilliant designers at JLR who will know absolutely what Defender will need to be, to be a similar success in its category,.....and it may not be similar to what we know & like about Defender,.....at 15000 sales p.a. worlwide,...it wouldn't want to be.
All IMHO of course!! Regards, Pickles

[MrLandy]

Well, now that you are "back", I note that you are still maintaining your place as No1 "Mr. Negative", with respect to ANYTHING with respect to the "New" Defender,...despite the fact that you, nor anybody else, knows anything.I can't remember anything positive from you.
The fact is, you, nor me, nor anyone else can to be totally negative about anything, because the simple fact is, neither you, nor I, nor anyone else, has anything to be totally negative about,..... because we know, absolutely,...NOTHING.
Of course I know nothing either, however, EVERY vehicle released by JLR of recent date, has been an outstanding success, in its "category.". Consequently, whilst I know nothing, I will be happy to rely on the brilliant designers at JLR who will know absolutely what Defender will need to be, to be a similar success in its category,.....and it may not be similar to what we know & like about Defender,.....at 15000 sales p.a. worlwide,...it wouldn't want to be.
All IMHO of course!! Regards, Pickles

Well someone needs to counteract Mr Blindly positive! 😜 based on nothing...except for a widely criticised prototype nostalgia defender. ...So actually we have more to go on that's negative than positive re new Defender.

If you're right and it's all about being market driven, I stand by my pessimism and I look forward to it winning Drive generic car of the year in 2018.
...how's that for taking the bait in return? 😊👍

IMHO mass appeal and high sales does not necessarily equate to quality or greatness. Quite the opposite in fact. A significant characteristic of Defender has always been that it doesn't appeal to the masses.

[Plutei]

Everyone is blind, but until we know more it's more fun to be positive than negative.

Realistically, JLR aren't stupid, they're in a great place financially, and they're taking their time with the new one (IMO to get it right).
That is all irrelevant though, because like it or not it's going to be a different car because you can't make money anymore off a car like the old defender.

[MrLandy]

Everyone is blind, but until we know more it's more fun to be positive than negative.

Realistically, JLR aren't stupid, they're in a great place financially, and they're taking their time with the new one (IMO to get it right).
That is all irrelevant though, because like it or not it's going to be a different car because you can't make money anymore off a car like the old defender.

Why is making money always the primary motivation? Surely there's more to life, culture, Land Rover, than that? ...to me, if the focus is on mainstream money making, it is more negative than anything else. To me a positive attitude towards new Defender is something out of the box that challenges presumptions, takes a risk and is all about character over profitability. Now that would be iconic. Creating great design is not about making money. It's about challenging the norm. ...nothing negative about that.

[cuppabillytea]

And I thought the fun was over. :p

[Plutei]

Why is making money always the primary motivation? Surely there's more to life, culture, Land Rover, than that? ...to me, if the focus is on mainstream money making, it is more negative than anything else. To me a positive attitude towards new Defender is something out of the box that challenges presumptions, takes a risk and is all about character over profitability. Now that would be iconic. Creating great design is not about making money. It's about challenging the norm. ...nothing negative about that.

Because if you're not making money your company doesn't exist??? Because as a publically listed company Tata must represent the interests of its shareholders.

I'm not saying money is the primary consideration in this car's design. I do think that the new car will be characterful and iconic, I just don't think that you will think so because realistically your ideal car can't exist today anymore.

Profitablility, popularity, quality, and iconism all go hand in hand, because if your car doesn't sell it will get cancelled and never reach icon status. Beetle, Kombi, Mini, Defender, Mustang, Land Cruiser, MX-5, WRX, Wrangler, etc all jumped to my mind as iconic cars and they all strike that balance. If you want icon status over all else, you're shooting the car in the foot so to speak.

A positive attitude towards the new Defender is trusting that JLR will create a car that will stand the test of time against consumer desires and reach iconism, profitability is a part of that.

[Pickles2]

Because if you're not making money your company doesn't exist??? Because as a publically listed company Tata must represent the interests of its shareholders.

I'm not saying money is the primary consideration in this car's design. I do think that the new car will be characterful and iconic, I just don't think that you will think so because realistically your ideal car can't exist today anymore.

Profitablility, popularity, quality, and iconism all go hand in hand, because if your car doesn't sell it will get cancelled and never reach icon status. Beetle, Kombi, Mini, Defender, Mustang, Land Cruiser, MX-5, WRX, Wrangler, etc all jumped to my mind as iconic cars and they all strike that balance. If you want icon status over all else, you're shooting the car in the foot so to speak.

A positive attitude towards the new Defender is trusting that JLR will create a car that will stand the test of time against consumer desires and reach iconism, profitability is a part of that.
Beautifully put, & Spot On.
Pickles.

[ozscott]

And I thought the fun was over. :p
No this is the refreshed and rested Mr Landy. 😁

[MrLandy]

rested? Nah tired, of the urban centric spin, the bling of adventure. ...guys the new Defender doesn't exist. The prototype was an embarrassment. Land Rover only make luxury SUV's now. There's nothing to be positive about re a new Defender except pure fantasy.

[cuppabillytea]

I love a good fantasy.

[jon3950]

I have come across enough little titbits (not in the mainstream press) to be confident of two things:

1. The new Defender exists and will be a good thing.
2. Mr Landy won't like it.

:p

Cheers,
Jon

[MrLandy]

I love a good fantasy.

Good for you! Me too ...mine is that Land Rover will design a Defender that's not about the mass market, where design is the priority, not secondary to mainstream market conformity like all other current model Land Rover vehicles. Shareholders as the motivator? There is no quicker way to destroy design cred.

[MrLandy]

I have come across enough little titbits (not in the mainstream press) to be confident of two things:

1. The new Defender exists and will be a good thing.
2. Mr Landy won't like it.

:p

Cheers,
Jon

Tell us what you've found Jon.... Luxury SUV dual cab ute?

[Plutei]

There's nothing to be positive about re a new Defender except pure fantasy.

You're right, from your point of view. As Pickles2 said, many have reason to be positive because everything the JLR family has produced (and I'm definitely including Jaguar here) has been absolutely golden in the relevant category. I think that something as simple as the announcement that they'll use the same stud pattern as the Hi-Lux is a huge positive; it shows dedication to function and aftermarket modifiability which are two pillars of the Defender.


The prototype was an embarrassment

You might have missed this (I only caught it recently), but about a year after it came out LR said the response for the DC100 was super positive as a leisure vehicle, therefore while they originally billed it as what the Defender replacement "will look like" they had since suggested that it will more likely play a role in the Leisure branch (AKA, Disco/DS) and not the Utility branch (AKA Defender).

Source (http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/dc100-new-baby-land-rover)

[jon3950]

Tell us what you've found Jon.... Luxury SUV dual cab ute?

I can't tell you anything that is fact. The final form is a very closely guarded secret even within JLR.

[MrLandy]

You're right, from your point of view.

Oh thanks Plutei. Finally permission granted to have my own point of view!

Seriously? Am I really the only guy who thinks Land Rover has totally dropped the ball on work vehicles?? Defender hasn't been their priority for 20 years! I doubt we'll even see one in 2018.

[ozscott]

Oh thanks Plutei. Finally permission granted to have my own point of view!

Seriously? Am I really the only guy who thinks Land Rover has totally dropped the ball on work vehicles?? Defender hasn't been their priority for 20 years! I doubt we'll even see one in 2018.
No but we just love seeing you spinning out of control because you are holding on so tight. Cheers

[MrLandy]

No but we just love seeing you spinning out of control because you are holding on so tight. Cheers

Um, I don't think it's me who's holding on tight. I've given up on LR bro. Love my Defender. Enjoy the Defender threads. But looks like I'll be saving for a G Wagen Pro sometime in the future. ...I just enjoy winding you guys up about your faith in shiny bling mobiles 😜👍

[ozscott]

Haha. I like it when my v8 manual D2 with 16's is called a bling machine...i feel all Gangster

[MrLandy]

Haha. I like it when my v8 manual D2 with 16's is called a bling machine...i feel all Gangster

Hehe, glad I made you smile. Any D2 is bling out bush.:wasntme: ... even my shiny Indus silver Defender is a bit too bling for my liking. 😊

[Andrew86]

Defender hasn't been their priority for 20 years! I doubt we'll even see one in 2018.

I understand where you're coming from with your cynicism MrLandy, but you're looking at it the wrong way. The Defender suffered from under investment for so long because of the profitability woes of JLR more broadly in the past. The company today is totally different.

Those luxo-barges that you so despise are JLR's biggest source of profit and have been a priority in recent years for that reason. They've filled the coffers and kept shareholders happy. With that solid base now well established, and with a wealthy Indian parent company, there's investment capital available to get the lower profit/higher volume cars right (i.e. Defender).

Look at Porsche. Purists cursed the day the Cayenne was released but the reality is that it has become their highest selling, highest profit vehicle. With those profits, they have been able to increase investment in their core 911 vehicles. Meeting the demands of the market doesn't dilute a brand, it gives it room to grow.

The new Defender isn't going to be a purpose built 'work vehicle'. Whatever that is? Few people can afford to have garages with 3 or 4 single purpose vehicles to fulfill different roles. Modern cars are capable of performing multiple roles very well, and I think the new Defender will do just that.

[MrLandy]

I understand where you're coming from with your cynicism MrLandy, but you're looking at it the wrong way. The Defender suffered from under investment for so long because of the profitability woes of JLR more broadly in the past. The company today is totally different.

Those luxo-barges that you so despise are JLR's biggest source of profit and have been a priority in recent years for that reason. They've filled the coffers and kept shareholders happy. With that solid base now well established, and with a wealthy Indian parent company, there's investment capital available to get the lower profit/higher volume cars right (i.e. Defender).

Look at Porsche. Purists cursed the day the Cayenne was released but the reality is that it has become their highest selling, highest profit vehicle. With those profits, they have been able to increase investment in their core 911 vehicles. Meeting the demands of the market doesn't dilute a brand, it gives it room to grow.

The new Defender isn't going to be a purpose built 'work vehicle'. Whatever that is? Few people can afford to have garages with 3 or 4 single purpose vehicles to fulfill different roles. Modern cars are capable of performing multiple roles very well, and I think the new Defender will do just that.

Well said Andrew. I like your optimism, I just don't share it. Being serious now, I wouldnt buy any of the current cross-over dual cab options on the market and it's pretty clear that this is the only market anyone is interested in because of sales volumes. I had an Amarok for a while, but it was too soft for constant harsh roads and too car-like for my liking. Unless new Defender is a proper full size HD vehicle I won't like it. It can be as high tech as possible and should not be a replica of current Defender. But it will need to be built for purpose ie HD hose out simplicity to win me over. I just can't see it happening because the culture of Land Rover is no longer about building pragmatic work ehicles.

[roverrescue]

I'm so with you Mr Neg-Landy-ative

I don't really care for any current JLR offerings for an actual working vehicle. Sure an evoque would make prime 2nd vehicle, shopping sled & sneaky weekender.
But I want a proper full size dualcab ute for actual off-road/ camping/ exploring.
I honestly don't care if a D3,4,5,6 is 200% better off road -if it doesn't have a tray, inherrant toughness and soul then it isn't in my vision as a true off-roader

The reason I upgraded from a 1995 130 to a 2010 130 is purely because it is a fools errand to think that the next "pretender" will really just be another ranger/Amarok/bt50/hilux clone.

On a recent Kimberley trip I was passenger and witness to the failings of a newish bt50 (written off due to twisted chassis from rock impact) and the disappointing lack of toughness in a sub 10oookm old hilux ... plasticcy interior, **** poor fittings and 17" rims on a heavily loaded dual cab in rocky terrain don't mix well for me. In a week between those two soft-cab Utes there would be in excess of 25 grand damage ... a 130 or Tojo 78 or 79 would have pizzled it.

Like Mr Landy I am all but certain that Whatever the next defender is - it will be in the market sphere of hilux/Amarok etc NOT Tojo 78,79 and as such it will be a pretender.

Also, like Mr Landy I would love to be proved wrong with JLR releasing a solid, high clearance , under stressed GVM, innovative electric drive, active suspension piece of magic!

But they won't will they - it will be another cloned RR looking SUV perhaps with bigger wheels and some agressive plastic bumpers - they will chase the market not the soul.

Prove me wrong JLR prove me wrong


Steve

[cuppabillytea]

Hehe, glad I made you smile. Any D2 is bling out bush.:wasntme: ... even my shiny Indus silver Defender is a bit too bling for my liking. 😊

Come off the grass.:eek: You're totally besotted with Indus Silver. :p:wasntme:

[rar110]

Why is making money always the primary motivation? Surely there's more to life, culture, Land Rover, than that? ...to me, if the focus is on mainstream money making, it is more negative than anything else. To me a positive attitude towards new Defender is something out of the box that challenges presumptions, takes a risk and is all about character over profitability. Now that would be iconic. Creating great design is not about making money. It's about challenging the norm. ...nothing negative about that.



I think that's why JLR kept making it despite being a basket case as far as the bean counters were concerned.