2016 'Defender'

[AndyG]

The talk on this thread speaks volumes more than the sum of it's words. I hope they are listening at Land Rover. I'm with MrLandy on the sounds and vibes thing. By the way, a robot only does what a human has shown it. There is no reason why a robot can't do rivets and flat panels just as well as a hand.

So we will be wanting a robot that can randomly adjust rivet and panel fittings by 5 mm on every vehicle. :D :wasntme:

[JDNSW]

....... By the way, a robot only does what a human has shown it. There is no reason why a robot can't do rivets and flat panels just as well as a hand.

Absolutely correct. But given the intention to sell a lot more than they have of the Defender, and that they are taking a lot longer to go from concept to production, it will make a lot of sense to use pressed, curved panels that are cheaper to produce (as long as the quantity is large enough), stronger, lighter, and quieter than flat panels. And while robots can rivet, it is a lot quicker and cheaper to spot weld or seam weld, which the robots can also do.

While some assemblies may be bolted together, don't expect the modularity of the Defender, at least to the same extent.

John

[DiscoMick]

My neighbor was given a choice of a human or robot surgeon for her recent heart operation. She chose the robot. The operation was not a success, but apparently the robot was not to blame.
Which is scarier - being operated on by a robot which might have a software malfunction or a human who might have had a bottle of red the night before?

[PAT303]

The current Defenders manufacturing process is finished,no one use's it because it's labour intensive,the new one will be made just like every other modern built vehicle which means Land Rover can sell it cheaper than the current one or the same price with extra gear fitted standard.None of you need worry about the Defender,you can buy all the parts you need to restore a series 1 so I don't think any of us need worry about our Tdi's,Ts5's TDCi's for those who don't wish to update because the new one is ''Defenderish'' enough.Me,my TDCi will go to make way for a Discovery Sport and the Tdi might become a project to keep me busy when I'm not travelling the interior in my Defender replacement. Pat

[MrLandy]

I like my rivets. They're really useful when you want to add or replace something.

Love my rivets too...it's no accident that around 75% of all Series/Defender Landy's are still on the road. Can't say the same for all other non-aluminium non-riveted brands/vehicles. ...sadly it's very unlikely we'll see a real rivet on the mythical new 20XX replacement. And PLEASE NO faux rivets!!! Shudder at the thought!

[MrLandy]

The talk on this thread speaks volumes more than the sum of it's words. I hope they are listening at Land Rover. I'm with MrLandy on the sounds and vibes thing. By the way, a robot only does what a human has shown it. There is no reason why a robot can't do rivets and flat panels just as well as a hand.

Agreed Billy, the diversity of thinking is fantastic. We almost need an in depth philosophy offshoot! I doubt they're listening at LR but who knows.

One thing we do know for sure is that the last handmade Defender is absolutely nigh. One obvious question on the back of your very interesting thinking around the idea of 'hand made by robots' is: if the particular character we are discussing can't be replicated, is it still a Defender? (There was discussion earlier about this) 'Defender Series 5' was suggested.

But it's precisely the character that puts the permasmile on our faces! Without that it's not a Defender to me!

I'm with Pat on this: my TDI will always be there as the recovery vehicle 😊

[scarry]

And this from Aprils LR Owner International,along comes the news that LR are "investigating the possibility of maintaining production of the current model at an overseas production facility".

This will enable the vehicle to still be sold in countries not constrained by EU regulations and red tape.

One would have thought, LR,if they were intending to do this,would have started on it ages ago.Or maybe they have but the word has not got out.

[MrLandy]

Yes but it won't help us in Oz, we'll be euro emission compliant no doubt. Its not really a solution either.

[PAT303]

And this from Aprils LR Owner International,along comes the news that LR are "investigating the possibility of maintaining production of the current model at an overseas production facility".

This will enable the vehicle to still be sold in countries not constrained by EU regulations and red tape.

One would have thought, LR,if they were intending to do this,would have started on it ages ago.Or maybe they have but the word has not got out.

They would have started ages ago,people have the wrong idea about manufacturing,it doesn't happen overnight,it would supprise people just how much of a head start it takes for a vehicle,even just a face lift for one in current production to go from concept to the dealer for court,the range of colours for example takes two years from idea to supply,thats just for paint,Land Rover would have been working on the D3 design in 2000 even though the D2 was released barely 12 months before. Pat

[scarry]

Yes but it won't help us in Oz, we'll be euro emission compliant no doubt. Its not really a solution either.

There is no 'solution',the current vehicle will not be made in the UK, after the end of December this year,thats it.

If it is manufactured in another country it could be around for many years to come,in other countries,depending on the relevant countries safety and emission regulations,etc,etc.

All we can do is wait for the replacement,and as others have said,LR never do things in half's,particularly with a completely new vehicle.

We all have to be patient and just wait:D

[JDNSW]

They would have started ages ago,people have the wrong idea about manufacturing,it doesn't happen overnight,it would supprise people just how much of a head start it takes for a vehicle,even just a face lift for one in current production to go from concept to the dealer for court,the range of colours for example takes two years from idea to supply,thats just for paint,Land Rover would have been working on the D3 design in 2000 even though the D2 was released barely 12 months before. Pat

But worth pointing out that for the first Landrover, from decision to proceed with a design to delivery of the first production vehicle, was from September 4th 1947 to July 19th 1948. And that was done without the benefit of any computer aided design. Admittedly it was a far simpler vehicle, but the facilities were nothing like what is available today either. In addition, it was like nothing Rover had ever built before, and using a completely new engine (designed in house, but several years earlier) to boot, even if it did use existing diffs and gear boxes.

Manufacturers, especially car manufacturers, are today pulling all stops to try and reduce the lead time for designs, taking advantage of the ability today to do all the design on a computer, and even 3D print prototype parts, and with Landrover planning to make the Defender replacement a completely new design in a completely new factory, this may be something they could pull off. Certainly thye will have been thinking about the design, and even preparing 'prototypes', including the DC-100, but I would not be surprised if they had only recently started a new design (hence the receding timeline).

John

[PAT303]

They would already have the drive line completed now,I wouldn't be supprised if they have both a ladder frame chassis and monocoque in test,my moneys on a plain white defender,a second in a FL2.They have two years left,thats bugger all time considering the amount of work that has to be done. Pat

[Pickles2]

I reckon they're a LONG way down the track, in fact I reckon it's pretty much the way it is now, as what it will eventually be, & as I believe, has been disclosed to the "Inner Sanctum".
Pickles.

[Richo1]

I wonder if Land Rover have considered that a lot of people buy Toyo's for the towing power for caravans, will the new 2.0 litre ingenium motor pull a large caravan easy.

[PAT303]

A lot of people buy V8 diesels for power only to find if they use that power consumption goes through the roof,in the end they drive very exxy vehicles that do the same speed everyone else does. Pat

[cuppabillytea]

If you can imagine how exciting it would be to pull a caravan at highway overtaking speeds with a Land Cruiser. Then you would probably be happy with the Two Litre.

[DiscoMick]

A lot of people buy V8 diesels for power only to find if they use that power consumption goes through the roof,in the end they drive very exxy vehicles that do the same speed everyone else does. Pat

Gearing is more important than engine size.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[MrLandy]

Its bizarre in this day and age that you can't buy a tojo landcruiser with anything but a V8! Defender has been leading the way for a long time with small turbo diesels and great gearing in full size 4WD's. Would be nice to have a little more torque in second high to skip what is a very short first at times, but i can live with it when the alternative is furl consumption is 18-20 litres/100km! And having low range that is best in the business

[Pickles2]

Gearing is more important than engine size.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app
Yes Disco, you have a point there. I can't believe how well the little 2.2 gets along, however, when I want to overtake a B Double,....that, does on occasions, require a bit of "planning, at which time the power of our C63 would be quite handy!
Pickles.

[DiscoMick]

Yes Disco, you have a point there. I can't believe how well the little 2.2 gets along, however, when I want to overtake a B Double,....that, does on occasions, require a bit of "planning, at which time the power of our C63 would be quite handy!
Pickles.

Drop back to fifth, push the revs up towards 3000 and you should get along quite nicely.

[MrLandy]

Drop back to fifth, push the revs up towards 3000 and you should get along quite nicely.

Yes, unless you're on a hill, then fourth is needed and momentum is lost. The downside of puma 2.2 IMHO, but then this has been the tradition of engines in 110's since forever! 😊

[plusnq]

This is an interesting development
The New Land Rover Defender Manufactured in Austria? | Expedition Portal (http://expeditionportal.com/the-new-land-rover-defender-manufactured-in-austria/)

[cuppabillytea]

Doesn't that put a cat amongst the pigeons?

[MrLandy]

...so they have been listening! Intriguing. ...Nice find plusnq!

[scarry]

Doesn't that put a cat amongst the pigeons?

There have been rumours of something like this for a while.

Now if they can fit airbags,bla,bla,it might be back.:)

But i suppose in reality,they can't, so it will be gone from Aus for good:(

[Didge]

If they can fit airbags in a g wagen why not a defender?

[PAT303]

...so they have been listening! Intriguing. ...Nice find plusnq!

Changed your tune since yesterday :p. Pat

[Pickles2]

Still absolutely all speculation.
Pickles.

[MrLandy]

Changed your tune since yesterday :p. Pat

:D ha ha, I'd be as happy as anyone if it turns out to be the real deal Pat. But I remain very sceptical.

[Disco Muppet]

Why are we writing Land Rover off before there's ANY information confirmed about it?
The Defender, as romantic as it may be, is a relic.
I get why people like them. Hell, I like them. I'm going to buy one.
But it's not economically viable to produce them, and impossible to make them comply with todays rules and regulations. We're no doubt in a bit of a nanny state future with pedestrian airbags and stuff like that but these are the lines on the ground and Land Rover has to play within them like everyone else.
Land Rover has been at the forefront of automotive offroad technology basically since they first started. There's a reason Land Rover is keeping exceptionally quiet about it. Hell, the DC100 was probably a nice little red herring that cost them bugger all and had everyone laughing and nashing their teeth and diverted attention away from what Land Rover was actually doing.
It's not going to be that slab sided hose out hero that it currently is (although if you hose out a puma interior you're pretty game imho), but from what I've heard (and no, I'm NOT going to elaborate on that at all because I haven't heard anything ;) ) it will be a worthy successor.
Good things come to those who wait...

[MrLandy]

...yeah, I can't divulge any of my discussions with Gerry over the past year or so either :p

[rick130]

If they can fit airbags in a g wagen why not a defender?


Scuttlebut suggests the firewall/bulkhead deforms when the bags go off !

Don't know if it's true, but sounds believable. :angel:

[PAT303]

Many vehicles are an automatic write off if the bags go bang. Pat

[cuppabillytea]

Chances are that if an airbag has gone off, there has been a fair amount of deformation going on.

[cuppabillytea]

Why are we writing Land Rover off before there's ANY information confirmed about it?
The Defender, as romantic as it may be, is a relic.
I get why people like them. Hell, I like them. I'm going to buy one.
But it's not economically viable to produce them, and impossible to make them comply with todays rules and regulations. We're no doubt in a bit of a nanny state future with pedestrian airbags and stuff like that but these are the lines on the ground and Land Rover has to play within them like everyone else.
Land Rover has been at the forefront of automotive offroad technology basically since they first started. There's a reason Land Rover is keeping exceptionally quiet about it. Hell, the DC100 was probably a nice little red herring that cost them bugger all and had everyone laughing and nashing their teeth and diverted attention away from what Land Rover was actually doing.
It's not going to be that slab sided hose out hero that it currently is (although if you hose out a puma interior you're pretty game imho), but from what I've heard (and no, I'm NOT going to elaborate on that at all because I haven't heard anything ;) ) it will be a worthy successor.
Good things come to those who wait... AMEN.;)

[MrLandy]

AMEN.;)

I don't think anyone's writing them off. But a bit of scepticism is healthy I reckon, given their capitulation to Toyota in the 'industrial vehicle' sector over 20 years, the massive focus on the luxury market instead, and an unconvincing defender replacement schedule to date.

[cuppabillytea]

I don't think anyone's writing them off. But a bit of scepticism is healthy I reckon, given their capitulation to Toyota in the 'industrial vehicle' sector over 20 years, the massive focus on the luxury market instead, and an unconvincing defender replacement schedule to date.

I understand, even share your anxiety, but I think I might be a tad more optimistic.

[Summiitt]

Chances are that if an airbag has gone off, there has been a fair amount of deformation going on.

I hope they continue their engineering strength in the new model with airbags adapted to industrial use.My little story, I hit a buck deer in my 2012 130 and then into a creek and vertical bank at about 70km/h, 2 black eyes, busted lip, the radio and motor were still running..they wouldn't write it off, new chassis, stamped with my chassis number landing next week for a full chassis replacement..whilst waiting for that chassis to come from the UK, I've done 23,000km, loaded at full GVM, following a Dozer all over the bush building fire trails.. As the insurance assessor said to me, there is no other vehicle around that would keep going and be safe and totally operational with such a bent chassis.. Says a lot for strenght in engineering design I think..hope the new one can match it..

[tact]

[...] (although if you hose out a puma interior you're pretty game imho), ..

On what do you base your opinion?

Color me game. Have hosed mine (dual cab puma) out many times. More gung-ho hosing in the rear than the front. But certainly spraying on pedals and splashing/scrubbing with a brush to get mud off. Initial worry was the accelerator pedal sensor(s).

No issue. ymmv

Also drove appropriately steadily/slowly through urban floodwaters that I reckon to be 900mm deep without including bow wave. It had a solid flat smooth concrete base (not floundering over rocks and hollows). Can see on video exactly when both my headlights were completely underwater. Stock wheels, tyres, suspension and no snorkel. There was maybe an inch of water leaked into the cabin while water outside was half way up the stock air intake grille and over the tops of headlights.

The "high tide mark" from silty water is still visible today inside the battery compartment. Yeah I am game. (No, not stupid, I weighed up the variables and watched progress carefully). Wouldn't do it every day - but sure as day is long there is no reason to be paranoid about water around Puma Defenders.

IMHO :angel: (Better take this to another thread tho if you wanted to debate further - maybe this one (video included): http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/214746-deep-water-stock-puma-defender.html#post2310841 )

[Disco Muppet]

Always thought the pumas had more of the lectrix inside and I personally know of a few that have had serious issues from getting water in the cab.
But when I hear hose out cab I imagine leaving a sprinkler inside with the doors closed for an afternoon :p


Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

[carlschmid2002]

The electrics that under the drivers seat are very vulnerable. Best moved to under cubby box with a Mulgo X Box.

[MrLandy]

Has anyone come up with a rubber seal or something that could waterproof the accelerator sensors? Can they be moved at all?

Obviously if you're aware of the two electrical hotspots in the cabin, the floor can be carefully hosed out.

Has anyone posted a diagram/description of all Puma Ecu / electrics susceptible to water during deep water crossing?

Sounds like Nugget is working on an improved sealed air filter box to go with snorkel kit. What else can we do to relocate/protect vulnerable points?

Planning a trip to Cape york soon, would be great to prep for the wet! Any advice appreciated.

[YOLO110]

The electrics that under the drivers seat are very vulnerable. Best moved to under cubby box with a Mulgo X Box.

Must say, never understood this train of thought as the height of the seat base is well over a meter above ground level! That would be some seriously deep water that would also having your ankles immersed! At that stage, water in the under electrics would be the least of my worries! ;)...

... unless you are then converting and using the under-seat area as a dunny! :D

[MrLandy]

Must say, never understood this train of thought as the height of the seat base is well over a meter above ground level! That would be some seriously deep water that would also having your ankles immersed! At that stage, water in the under electrics would be the least of my worries! ;)...

... unless you are then converting and using the under-seat area as a dunny! :D

Been through plenty of over bonnet creek crossings in northern australia out of necessity in my 300tdi. Puma and water is a whole different scenario. I may yet decide to take old faithful 300tdi to the Cape.

[tact]

Been through plenty of over bonnet creek crossings in northern australia out of necessity in my 300tdi. Puma and water is a whole different scenario. I may yet decide to take old faithful 300tdi to the Cape.

Be more worried about the immobilizer turning to custard somewhere remote. Have a plan for any trip where a taxi home and flattop to workshop is a problem.

[MrLandy]

Be more worried about the immobilizer turning to custard somewhere remote. Have a plan for any trip where a taxi home and flattop to workshop is a problem.

Good point Tact, how have you solved this?

[Dervish]

Must say, never understood this train of thought as the height of the seat base is well over a meter above ground level! That would be some seriously deep water that would also having your ankles immersed! At that stage, water in the under electrics would be the least of my worries! ;)...

...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/05/208.jpg

This is one of many over the bonnet crossings we faced up at the Cape. After this, we drove the 3,500km home - that brought the vehicle's total just past 450,000km - took the gear out and I drove it to work the next day.

The thought of taking a vehicle with so many sensors and ecus up to the Cape would put me off entirely. Limping home the ~1000km from this crossing to the nearest dealer in Cairns would be a terrible experience. I personally am very reluctant to buy any overlanding vehicle with more electronics than the old faithful 300tdi, and I'm an electrical engineer.

Unfortunately that is why the new Defender doesn't interest me at all. At best, it's only fault will be a tiny, overstressed turbo-diesel covered in sensors and ECUs thanks to European emissions laws; but that alone is enough to put me off.

[rijidij]

Must say, never understood this train of thought as the height of the seat base is well over a meter above ground level! That would be some seriously deep water that would also having your ankles immersed! At that stage, water in the under electrics would be the least of my worries! ;)...

... unless you are then converting and using the under-seat area as a dunny! :D

I'm happy I don't have any electronics to worry about with the Isuzu :D

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/07/1231.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/Cape%20York%202012/Nolans_zps534e6007.jpg.html)

[MrLandy]

Thanks guys, impressive pics! What time of year were these taken?

Obviously an option for puma drivers is to turn back if confronted with deep water...

Perhaps it's time we contact Isuzu about a growing market for a new 3.9 :cool: what are the retro-fitting laws? Clearly there will be a future time when the most durable repairable (dinosaur to some) Defender chassis/bodies will need heart transplants... :)

[Dervish]

Thanks guys, impressive pics! What time of year were these taken?

Obviously an option for puma drivers is to turn back if confronted with deep water...


That one was taken mid-November, when it starts to get quiet.

If you were turning around at crossings you wouldn't get far on the Old Tele Track at all, and the Peninsula Development Road (the alternative) is a very poor substitute.



Perhaps it's time we contact Isuzu about a growing market for a new 3.9 :cool: what are the retro-fitting laws? Clearly there will be a future time when the most durable repairable (dinosaur to some) Defender chassis/bodies will need heart transplants... :)

Legality is easy, buy a Perentie wreck (engine and chassis) and put your body on it - that's what I did.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/06/723.jpg

[MrLandy]

Thanks Dervish, yes I'm aware of that transplant option. I guess I'm also interested in the longer term...do you think there will come a time when old isuzu's can no longer be rebuilt?

[JDNSW]

[QUOTE=Dervish;2385333]..........

The thought of taking a vehicle with so many sensors and ecus up to the Cape would put me off entirely. Limping home the ~1000km from this crossing to the nearest dealer in Cairns would be a terrible experience. I personally am very reluctant to buy any overlanding vehicle with more electronics than the old faithful 300tdi, and I'm an electrical engineer.
......../QUOTE]

It is impossible for any new design to meet not only Euro, but many other country's (including Australia's) emissions, theft resistance, fuel economy, and other rules that will be in place by the time the new Defender is into production without these. Hopefully, the various sensors and ecus will have been adequately hardened against water and dust ingress by then.

Fortunately, my 110 and 2a will probably last me out, and possibly my grandchildren as well if looked after.

John

[tact]

Good point Tact, how have you solved this?

A simple matter like dropping your remote fob in a river, losing it, or otherwise breaking it - will see a TDCi owner unable to un-immobilize, start and drive his vehicle. That's ok when in town within 500m of a latte joint with free wifi.

To solve at least the damaged/lost fob scenario, What I WANT:
- to know my EKA. With that you can get moving without a functional remote/immobilizer fob. So far Land Rover Malaysia have been useless in providing me the code. I bought a Nanocom Evo to get into the security ECU and read the EKA myself. But this hasn't worked either!

To solve issues should the security module in the vehicle fail:
- a working Nanocom Evo so as to turn off immobilizer functions completely before going bush

I have neither of above because both LRM and my Nanocom have failed to live up to expectations (at least Nanocom (BBS) are working on a solution)

(There is a weird problem with Defenders as they are supplied in some countries like Malaysia - LR does not put the VIN in the ECUs. And some versions of the 2.2l TDCi has some changes in the communications spec. Both make it hard for the Nanocom to do what it should)

So in the mean time I do what I can - I bring the spare set of keys with me on every trip and sequester them safely outside of my vehicle. Usually in another vehicle altogether. Should help the first of the problems above (lost/damaged fob)

[PAT303]

You guys get old real quick,change the channel,for all our sake's,change the channel. Pat

[MrLandy]

You guys get old real quick,change the channel,for all our sake's,change the channel. Pat

Oh Pat, if Land Rover can do no wrong in your eyes, that just makes you a fan boy stuck on the one channel. :p Yup, it's all peachy for those princesses who want a luxury runabout with underfloor insulation. The jury is out on anything else.

[Disco Muppet]

Plenty of those princess runabouts, from td5 powered vehicles (both disco and defender) as well as later tdv6 and puma engines vehicles have done incredibly remote trips including the cape, arnhem land, etc etc. Bit of common sense in how you behave behind the wheel in such locations goes a long way ;)

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

[MrLandy]

Plenty of those princess runabouts, from td5 powered vehicles (both disco and defender) as well as later tdv6 and puma engines vehicles have done incredibly remote trips including the cape, arnhem land, etc etc. Bit of common sense in how you behave behind the wheel in such locations goes a long way ;)

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

Nicely put DiscoMuppet.

[PAT303]

Oh Pat, if Land Rover can do no wrong in your eyes, that just makes you a fan boy stuck on the one channel. :p Yup, it's all peachy for those princesses who want a luxury runabout with underfloor insulation. The jury is out on anything else.

LR does lots of things wrong in my eye's but all the same scary eletrickery engine posts over and over and over and ZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.How we ever survive after the series models is a miracle I tells ya,a miracle :confused:. Pat

[PAT303]

Plenty of those princess runabouts, from td5 powered vehicles (both disco and defender) as well as later tdv6 and puma engines vehicles have done incredibly remote trips including the cape, arnhem land, etc etc. Bit of common sense in how you behave behind the wheel in such locations goes a long way ;)

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

I'm starting to wonder if they do reading all these posts,we must be very lucky is all I can say. Pat

[tact]

I'm starting to wonder if they do reading all these posts,we must be very lucky is all I can say. Pat

Err.. dear Pat - I own, drive (into very remote places as well as city commute), and love, my TDCi Defender.

I certainly was not bagging TDCis for having electrickery. I love all that the electrickery delivers with my TDCi.

Did you not notice my post about not being paranoid around water in a Puma? Which doesn't mean go crazy in water, just a casual STFU to those with puma-paranoia saying "don't get it wet!".

Even my comment about the immobiliser wasn't pointing out any fault in the system (though there are those too) or based on puma-phobic electrickery hate thinking.

Its a fact of life for those Puma's with immobilisers - lose or damage the key fob and you'll be pushing your TDCi home if there are no latte vendors or flatbeds around. Unless you have a way around it. Its just common sense to prep for that.

Or else prep for discussions like this:
"Yeah holiday of the century spoiled... had to leave the vehicle deep inside the hard stuff. Going to take weeks for it to be towed out to somewhere where a flattop can get it back to LR."

"What happened!? Gearbox fall out? Engine exploded? Vicious emus?"

"Nah... nothing serious like that! Key fell from my pocket and I stepped on the remote. Couldn't disarm the immobiliser to start the car."

Your shout.

[Summiitt]

Ill give you guys an example of how this idea that electrics and sensors etc is crap.. Many years ago, air bag suspension on 4wds was considered unreliable and temporary.. Yet most long distance buses and trucks were already running airbags for years with good results, now, I'd guess 95% of all long distance/ roadtrain/outback truck applications are running on airbags, yes, heavy haulage is still split on old school 6 rod style systems, but most operators are seeing the advantage in airbag. Similarly, every truck running the toughest roads in Australia is running a totally computer controlled motor, sensors on every possible point in the motor, transmission and drivetrain is monitored..today you can't buy a truck that isn't this advanced..they survive because the systems work, I can get a fault code in one of my western stars and and the driver can diagnose it on the spot, locate the sensor, tell whether it's a faulty sensor or a real issue and arrange parts to suit or clear the code and keep driving.. i love my old 300tdi for its simplicity, but the dark side ain't that dark, would take my puma to the Cape without any hesitation..

[PAT303]

Err.. dear Pat - I own, drive (into very remote places as well as city commute), and love, my TDCi Defender.

I certainly was not bagging TDCis for having electrickery. I love all that the electrickery delivers with my TDCi.

Did you not notice my post about not being paranoid around water in a Puma? Which doesn't mean go crazy in water, just a casual STFU to those with puma-paranoia saying "don't get it wet!".

Even my comment about the immobiliser wasn't pointing out any fault in the system (though there are those too) or based on puma-phobic electrickery hate thinking.

Its a fact of life for those Puma's with immobilisers - lose or damage the key fob and you'll be pushing your TDCi home if there are no latte vendors or flatbeds around. Unless you have a way around it. Its just common sense to prep for that.

Or else prep for discussions like this:
"Yeah holiday of the century spoiled... had to leave the vehicle deep inside the hard stuff. Going to take weeks for it to be towed out to somewhere where a flattop can get it back to LR."

"What happened!? Gearbox fall out? Engine exploded? Vicious emus?"

"Nah... nothing serious like that! Key fell from my pocket and I stepped on the remote. Couldn't disarm the immobiliser to start the car."

Your shout.

My mate got the key in his 80 series jammed in the ignition,you ever tried getting one started like that?,I can drop my Tdi's keys out hiking,or 20 other things leaving me stuck. Pat

[tact]

My mate got the key in his 80 series jammed in the ignition,you ever tried getting one started like that?,I can drop my Tdi's keys out hiking,or 20 other things leaving me stuck. Pat

...or break the key fob and be unable to disable the immobiliser on a TDCi. All the same things. None are a fault in pumas nor a criticism of electrickery. (which is how you seem to take it - certainly not how it is intended).

There are steps you can take to mitigate some of the examples you gave. Leave a spare key etc...

There are steps that can be taken to protect against being immobilised when you'd rather not be.

So your issue with this is?

[MrLandy]

Ill give you guys an example of how this idea that electrics and sensors etc is crap.. Many years ago, air bag suspension on 4wds was considered unreliable and temporary.. Yet most long distance buses and trucks were already running airbags for years with good results, now, I'd guess 95% of all long distance/ roadtrain/outback truck applications are running on airbags, yes, heavy haulage is still split on old school 6 rod style systems, but most operators are seeing the advantage in airbag. Similarly, every truck running the toughest roads in Australia is running a totally computer controlled motor, sensors on every possible point in the motor, transmission and drivetrain is monitored..today you can't buy a truck that isn't this advanced..they survive because the systems work, I can get a fault code in one of my western stars and and the driver can diagnose it on the spot, locate the sensor, tell whether it's a faulty sensor or a real issue and arrange parts to suit or clear the code and keep driving.. i love my old 300tdi for its simplicity, but the dark side ain't that dark, would take my puma to the Cape without any hesitation..

Nice example summitt. All teasing and provocation aside, My concern is not about electrics per se. It is about long term durability in very harsh environments and serviceability outside cities. You are right about the benefits of electronic fault clearing and a different kind of reliability that ECU's provide. Water and and electrics don't mix though so design changes needed for a serious off roader IMO - different usage to a truck. The disappointment with electric engine management is definitely in fuel consumption. My 2.2 puma uses more fuel than my 18 year old 300tdi. But long term durability in harsh environments is what I'm most concerned about in terms of the softening of 4WDs. There really aren't many truly work oriented 4WDs on the market anymore. I find it exceedingly disappointing that Land Rover have turned their back on their origins in this way, both in terms of working vehicles and regional servicing. Blind faith in a new Defender is not warranted for these reasons IMO.
Cheers,

[tact]

[...] The disappointment with electric engine management is definitely in fuel consumption. My 2.2 puma uses more fuel than my 18 year old 300tdi.
Cheers,

Hey MrLandy,

Have seen this comment before. I have no experience with the tdi's so accept what's said on face value.

Hard to reconcile with a belief that a modern engine must be more efficient. My thought that this is simply a case of the TDCi producing more power than a tdi? Much more, and you using those extra ponies - Yes? (TNSTAAFL - you pay at the pump)

Thought experiment: If you were to somehow limit the amount of hp/torque you could call for in a TDCi (imagine a smart brick under the throttle), limit it to the max hp/torque actually available in your old tdi..... My bet is the TDCi would return better mileage

It's the same when installing a tune on a TDCi. You had 120hp/360NM originally. Now you have 150hp/450NM. If you applied a driving style that plants the right foot to the floor in every gear, up shifting at 3500rpm, before and after applying the tune. Guess what - you burn more fuel with the 150hp tune (and get everywhere faster!). You pay for that at the pump.

However if your driving style was never to exceed 25% throttle, and keep revs between 2000-3000. Idealistically there is no reason a good 150hp tune would burn more fuel than the original 120hp tune. (Because you never demand more hp/NM than the 120hp tune could deliver)

If there is any truth in my suggestion then it's not the TDCi electronic engine management you should be disappointed with. It's actually doing you proud and much more efficient than the tdi. It's the lead in your right foot you need to be "disappointed" with. :angel:

[JDNSW]

........they survive because the systems work, I can get a fault code in one of my western stars and and the driver can diagnose it on the spot, locate the sensor, tell whether it's a faulty sensor or a real issue and arrange parts to suit or clear the code and keep driving.. i love my old 300tdi for its simplicity, but the dark side ain't that dark, would take my puma to the Cape without any hesitation..

And much of the concern expressed with electronics in this thread is that this is precisely what you cannot do with any consumer four wheel drive or car today.

If this capability was included with modern four wheel drives, there would be little to worry about - even water ingress could be pinpointed, and the right bit of the gear stripped and laid out in the sun for a day halfway up the cape. But providing this is not likely to happen in the near future, because it works against the desire of the manufacturer to tie the buyer to the dealer, and in any case, would almost certainly be illegal under immobiliser laws in some states (which do not apply to heavy vehicles such as your Western Stars!).

John

[MrLandy]

Hey MrLandy,

Have seen this comment before. I have no experience with the tdi's so accept what's said on face value.

Hard to reconcile with a belief that a modern engine must be more efficient. My thought that this is simply a case of the TDCi producing more power than a tdi? Much more, and you using those extra ponies - Yes? (TNSTAAFL - you pay at the pump)

Thought experiment: If you were to somehow limit the amount of hp/torque you could call for in a TDCi (imagine a smart brick under the throttle), limit it to the max hp/torque actually available in your old tdi..... My bet is the TDCi would return better mileage

It's the same when installing a tune on a TDCi. You had 120hp/360NM originally. Now you have 150hp/450NM. If you applied a driving style that plants the right foot to the floor in every gear, up shifting at 3500rpm, before and after applying the tune. Guess what - you burn more fuel with the 150hp tune (and get everywhere faster!). You pay for that at the pump.

However if your driving style was never to exceed 25% throttle, and keep revs between 2000-3000. Idealistically there is no reason a good 150hp tune would burn more fuel than the original 120hp tune. (Because you never demand more hp/NM than the 120hp tune could deliver)

If there is any truth in my suggestion then it's not the TDCi electronic engine management you should be disappointed with. It's actually doing you proud and much more efficient than the tdi. It's the lead in your right foot you need to be "disappointed" with. :angel:

I respect your thinking tact, but of course I've tried that. On a straight 600km highway run at the speed limit of 100 / 110 kmh, which I've done too many times to remember in both vehicles...same driving style.
1998 Tdi 2.5 - 10-11litres per 100k. / 2014 Puma 2.2 - 12-14 litres per 100k.
If I drive at 100kmh or less, tdci puma will get 11-13 litres per 100kmh, but never 10L/100km. Tdi consumption doesn't change. My puma has done 25,000km. Tdi has done 320,000km.

The electronic engine management and design are more complicated, get a bit more power out of a smaller engine but with worse fuel consumption figures. The automatic throttle control also increases fuel consumption in my opinion, it actually prevents me driving economically by keeping revs up all the time. The puma is not a relaxed engine to drive because of this.

Don't get me wrong, I still love driving the puma, but it doesn't make any sense to me for anyone to claim that a far more technologically advanced engine with a smaller capacity using more fuel is a good thing? It goes against all aims around reduction of fossil fuel burning and meeting emissions laws, quite apart from costing more to run. A clear mark against this ECU managed engine.

[MrLandy]

And much of the concern expressed with electronics in this thread is that this is precisely what you cannot do with any consumer four wheel drive or car today.

If this capability was included with modern four wheel drives, there would be little to worry about - even water ingress could be pinpointed, and the right bit of the gear stripped and laid out in the sun for a day halfway up the cape. But providing this is not likely to happen in the near future, because it works against the desire of the manufacturer to tie the buyer to the dealer, and in any case, would almost certainly be illegal under immobiliser laws in some states (which do not apply to heavy vehicles such as your Western Stars!).

John

Exactly John. "...because it works against the desire of the manufacturer to tie the buyer to the dealer..." And this is a problem for 4WD customers because? THERE ARE NO SERVICE AGENTS ANYWHERE NEAR WHERE WE USE OUR 4WD's!! It makes a mockery of the Land Rover name itself. In English parlance... 'Urban Rover' would seem more befitting going forward old chaps.

[tact]

And much of the concern expressed with electronics in this thread is that this is precisely what you cannot do with any consumer four wheel drive or car today.

If this capability was included with modern four wheel drives, there would be little to worry about - [...]
John

John,

It's true LR don't supply anything as sophisticated as we might like. But there are "tools":
- LR have this EKA code thing to at least allow us to bypass immobiliser should the fob battery die, or the fob is lost/damaged.
- 3rd party tools allow turning of immobiliser functions and read fault codes

My complaint is NOT that TDCis have electrickery. It's that I cannot get my EKA out of LRM. And my backup plan to get my EKA myself (nanocom evo purchase ) - also is not working.

[MrLandy]

John,

It's true LR don't supply anything as sophisticated as we might like. But there are "tools":
- LR have this EKA code thing to at least allow us to bypass immobiliser should the fob battery die, or the fob is lost/damaged.
- 3rd party tools allow turning of immobiliser functions and read fault codes

My complaint is NOT that TDCis have electrickery. It's that I cannot get my EKA out of LRM. And my backup plan to get my EKA myself (nanocom evo purchase ) - also is not working.

More poor Land Rover service for those in the bush

[Tombie]

More poor Land Rover service for those in the bush


A narrow statement. Try Toyota. Absolutely Shocking.

[Tombie]

Not sure why your Tdci is drinking more.. Except that it's possibly still very new.

The Tdci here was 12-13l /100 driving home from the dealer (1400km trip)

By the 5th tank it was down to 11-12/100

It's now at around 8,000km and is down to 10s

[Tombie]

A lazy old, loose tolerance indirect diesel vs a tight tolerance unit - the Tdci needs time to bed in and loosen up..

[DazzaTD5]

latest juicy word out on the internut is...

2018 for a "new' Defender..
based on a full size Range Rover underpinning.
Separate chassis (like a Disco 3, 4) but constructed of aluminium.
"key market components" such as wheel stud pattern, rims the same as a Land Cruiser.

So my thought is....
Buy a new Defender before the end of the year.
Buy a used Defender before the end of year, pay current high price.
Buy a used Defender after production ceases and pay MORE.
Wait for 2018, if new Defender is rubbish, the used ones will continue to be high priced.
If new Defender is awesome, used ones, you would assume will be cheaper.

Regards
Daz

[MrLandy]

Not sure why your Tdci is drinking more.. Except that it's possibly still very new.

The Tdci here was 12-13l /100 driving home from the dealer (1400km trip)

By the 5th tank it was down to 11-12/100

It's now at around 8,000km and is down to 10s

Thanks Tombie... maybe more time ... although mine's done 25,000km now. Maybe it has an issue? But then even if it comes down to 10L/100km it's still no better in terms of fuel consumption than the tdi .

[MrLandy]

A narrow statement. Try Toyota. Absolutely Shocking.

Yup well two wrongs don't make it right. Toyota might be irrelevant if LR lifted their bush service game.

[EastFreo]

Gong back to the fob and immobiliser topic, today I struck by the thought that not having a fob doesn't seem to make a lot of difference in the UK where the Defender is the most stolen car on the road.

What are the car thieves doing that is so effective?

[PAT303]

Have any of you actually been stuck because of the immobiliser?,did you try the push lock button four times then push the unlock button four times to reset it?.Like all ready posted you can buy a Hawk eye or Nanocom that does everything you need this side of a fully fledged workshop,stop complaining and simply buy one if thats what you need. Pat

[MrLandy]

Gong back to the fob and immobiliser topic, today I struck by the thought that not having a fob doesn't seem to make a lot of difference in the UK where the Defender is the most stolen car on the road.

What are the car thieves doing that is so effective?

It gets worse...now we need to learn to steal our own vehicles if we want bush reliability?

[Disco Muppet]

I read one story of the wire for the immobilizer being run under the car and exposed. Snip wire, free car.
Add to that lots of them are stolen for parts, and when you can unscrew the door hinges from the outside, it's not a difficult car to break into.
Hell, some of the thieves over there can pinch update D2a headlights in 15 seconds...

[MrLandy]

Have any of you actually been stuck because of the immobiliser?,did you try the push lock button four times then push the unlock button four times to reset it?.Like all ready posted you can buy a Hawk eye or Nanocom that does everything you need this side of a fully fledged workshop,stop complaining and simply buy one if thats what you need. Pat

We shouldn't have to Pat, that's the point. It's a legitimate concern.

[PAT303]

With all your legitimate concerns over the Defender,my advice is when you travel west take the train. Pat

[scarry]

With all your legitimate concerns over the Defender,my advice is when you travel west take the train. Pat

To much elecktricary in a train Pat, better off in a Series 1:angel:

[Didge]

Mmh, I drive a Defendosaur but wonder where this argument will be when all cars are electric? Solar vs coal powered source? Ya can't stop change and evolution and usually it is for the better. Despite all the polution control, etc, etc a new V8 petrol car is getting better economy, power and torque outputs than the famed Phase 3 GTHO Falcons of the early 70's - l make that claim with no data backup but would like to see it refuted with credible evidence and fact.
Nowadays V8's are shutting down various unneeded cylinders for economy - doesn't happen mechanically - it's all computer and electrickery. I'd be happy to have a V10 turboed diesel that shut down unneeded cylinders - would pull like a train and go like a rocket :)

[MrLandy]

As I say, My concern is not about electrics per se. It is about long term durability in very harsh environments and servicing outside cities. A solar Defender? Awesome. An expanded LR service network to support it? Awesome.

[tact]

Have any of you actually been stuck because of the immobiliser?,did you try the push lock button four times then push the unlock button four times to reset it?.Like all ready posted you can buy a Hawk eye or Nanocom that does everything you need this side of a fully fledged workshop,stop complaining and simply buy one if thats what you need. Pat

Yeah once. Flat battery in the fob. Could open the door with the key, set off alarm, but not deactivate immobilizer for lack of.... EKA. Again the complaint is not about presence of electrickery. But lack of ability for LRM or an expensive nanocom Eco to get me my EKA

Fortunately only a short taxi ride a mall where I could get a battery. Then fortunately had internet access to read up the process/steps for battery replacement and resync. (It's not intuitive!)

My comment to MrLandy to "be more worried about the immobilizer" than getting water on your puma - is simply a prompt to prep for these things. Not a complaint that Pumas have such tech.

Good luck pressing buttons 4times on a fob with flat battery, or a damaged fob. If you don't have a spare fob, spare battery, and have memorized or written somewhere the battery replacement steps...Any place where it's not a short taxi ride to help.... Again. Good luck if you are not prepped.

PS: Almost forgot. There was a second incident related to the central locking/alarm/immobilizer. Keys were in the ignition. Engine off. Jumped out for a quick squiz at something. Drivers door closed behind me. Opened a rear door to get something from the back seat. Closed the rear door. Car then locked all doors itself. Very odd. Google and you find others caught with same bug.

Again. Fortunately. Short walk to the spare set of keys. (Yes, Pat303, this one could have been handled if spare keys were not handy...brick to a window, etc...)

[MrLandy]

Yeah once. Flat battery in the fob. Could open the door with the key, set off alarm, but not deactivate immobilizer for lack of.... EKA. Again the complaint is not about presence of electrickery. But lack of ability for LRM or an expensive nanocom Eco to get me my EKA

Fortunately only a short taxi ride a mall where I could get a battery. Then fortunately had internet access to read up the process/steps for battery replacement and resync. (It's not intuitive!)

My comment to MrLandy to "be more worried about the immobilizer" than getting water on your puma - is simply a prompt to prep for these things. Not a complaint that Pumas have such tech.

Good luck pressing buttons 4times on a fob with flat battery, or a damaged fob. If you don't have a spare fob, spare battery, and have memorized or written somewhere the battery replacement steps...Any place where it's not a short taxi ride to help.... Again. Good luck if you are not prepped.

PS: Almost forgot. There was a second incident related to the central locking/alarm/immobilizer. Keys were in the ignition. Engine off. Jumped out for a quick squiz at something. Drivers door closed behind me. Opened a rear door to get something from the back seat. Closed the rear door. Car then locked all doors itself. Very odd. Google and you find others caught with same bug.

Again. Fortunately. Short walk to the spare set of keys. (Yes, Pat303, this one could have been handled if spare keys were not handy...brick to a window, etc...)

I appreciate your thinking and thoughtfulness on these issues Tact. Thanks.

Interesting, I've always been very careful not to leave my keys in the car without a window down! Had a hunch it might lock itself! And how ridiculous that the key opening the door doesn't turn alarm off!

I'll be asking Land Rover dealer for my EKA next week, will let you know how I go.

[EastFreo]

It gets worse...now we need to learn to steal our own vehicles if we want bush reliability?

I can see a classic British comedy series coming out of this. An episode devoted to the bush breakdown and then finding the section in the handbook on how to hot wire your own car.

[Avion8]

I can see a classic British comedy series coming out of this. An episode devoted to the bush breakdown and then finding the section in the handbook on how to hot wire your own car.

John Cleese beating it with a Mallee branch.... I've warned you before you stupid Land Rover, let me in.

[cuppabillytea]

I've had enough of this. I'm gunna build a steam defender:eek:

[AndyG]

I appreciate your thinking and thoughtfulness on these issues Tact. Thanks.

Interesting, I've always been very careful not to leave my keys in the car without a window down! Had a hunch it might lock itself! And how ridiculous that the key opening the door doesn't turn alarm off!

I'll be asking Land Rover dealer for my EKA next week, will let you know how I go.

My pet fear, being locked out in a remote location, so two people two sets of keys and a window down.
Another pet fear is pulling the door shut absentmindedly while your other hand is wrapped around the window jamb, you only do that once in your life :(

Took the dealer 6 weeks to get my EKA from the UK last year, :mad: new security procedures :confused: so hope it's not urgent. I routinely embed my EKA into passwords as a reminder

[YOLO110]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/05/208.jpg

This is one of many over the bonnet crossings we faced up at the Cape. After this, we drove the 3,500km home - that brought the vehicle's total just past 450,000km - took the gear out and I drove it to work the next day.

The thought of taking a vehicle with so many sensors and ecus up to the Cape would put me off entirely. Limping home the ~1000km from this crossing to the nearest dealer in Cairns would be a terrible experience. I personally am very reluctant to buy any overlanding vehicle with more electronics than the old faithful 300tdi, and I'm an electrical engineer.

Unfortunately that is why the new Defender doesn't interest me at all. At best, it's only fault will be a tiny, overstressed turbo-diesel covered in sensors and ECUs thanks to European emissions laws; but that alone is enough to put me off.

Amazing photos! :cool:

Yes, electronics are a real issue now...

As a matter of interest, how much water came into the cabin during that crossing? If significant, was it over the seat base level?

[tact]

I've had enough of this. I'm gunna build a steam defender:eek:

Please make sure you have a plan in place should the boiler over pressure valve sticks open. If that happens far from a latte place, no free wifi, no flat tops - good luck!

[Tombie]

Amazing photos! :cool:

Yes, electronics are a real issue now...

As a matter of interest, how much water came into the cabin during that crossing? If significant, was it over the seat base level?

Electronics ARE a real issue now...

OR

Electronics are a PERCEIVED issue now...

Almost the entire thread here is about the latter. :cool:

And all this talk about the Australian conditions being so incredibly different and challenging on a vehicle... What a load of horse ****.

Spent plenty of time working around the APY area in full electronic vehicles without issues to do with the electronics at all..

Quote: "My biggest fear is being remote and having the vehicle lock my keys inside" :angel:

If that's your biggest fear that's hysterical.... Health events, falls etc should be higher. Having to punch the window out to get in is hardly a need for fear - I wouldn't even be concerned about until IF it happened...

[loanrangie]

Its only the quality of the electrics that could be in question but i think LR electronics have improved a lot in the last 20 years.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using AULRO mobile app

[scarry]

Electronics ARE a real issue now...

OR

Electronics are a PERCEIVED issue now...

Almost the entire thread here is about the latter. :cool:

And all this talk about the Australian conditions being so incredibly different and challenging on a vehicle... What a load of horse ****.

Spent plenty of time working around the APY area in full electronic vehicles without issues to do with the electronics at all..

Quote: "My biggest fear is being remote and having the vehicle lock my keys inside" :angel:

If that's your biggest fear that's hysterical.... Health events, falls etc should be higher. Having to punch the window out to get in is hardly a need for fear - I wouldn't even be concerned about until IF it happened...

Surely if travelling in remote areas you would have one hidden up on the rack,or somewhere else where it won't get wet.And have spare batteries,etc.Good prep would be the plan.

As Tombie has said,far more things could go wrong that can't be planned for,mechanical failures,health issues,accidents,bla,bla.

In the last 38 yrs of owning vehicles,running a fleet of vans,and having LR's for the last 16yrs,i have never had a failure due to electronics.And done a heap of remote area travel.

Knowing your vehicle and good trip prep is what is needed.

[Didge]

Forgive the ignorant question - I'm driving a 300Tdi so have no exposure to this, but what's an EKA?
:)

[tact]

Surely if travelling in remote areas you would have one hidden up on the rack,or somewhere else where it won't get wet.And have spare batteries,etc.Good prep would be the plan.

As Tombie has said,far more things could go wrong that can't be planned for,mechanical failures,health issues,accidents,bla,bla.

In the last 38 yrs of owning vehicles,running a fleet of vans,and having LR's for the last 16yrs,i have never had a failure due to electronics.And done a heap of remote area travel.

Knowing your vehicle and good trip prep is what is needed.

You get it. Yay!

Going remote areas in a series 1 you take spare fan belts. In later models a serpentine belt. You never have all the drinking water or all the med kits in one vehicle.

A vehicle with sensors all over it and electronics coming out the wazoo.... needs appropriate spares and preparation. One of the things that sold me on the recent BAS remap group buy is that for 2.2l pumas you score a new (blank) ECU. Means I now have the original as a spare! Nice.

[MrLandy]

As I say, My concern is not about electrics per se. It is about long term durability in very harsh environments and servicing outside cities. An immobilised vehicle is a small concern in the context of the world, yes. Until it happens and Land Rover haven't given you your EKA code as a matter of course.

Love the image of John Clesse admonishing the bad Defender with a mallee branch :Rolling::Rolling::Rolling::D

This thread is actually about the greater concern that is the lack of Land Rover service in general for increasingly high tech vehicles in the bush.

Hi tech is fantastic in many ways and it's just the tip of the iceberg. The next Defender, if nothing else, will behigh tech. It can also be a disaster in the bush. A friend of mine in a Toyota out of warranty, got bogged in a very remote place in WA. His electronic 4WD engagement system failed. Lucky I was there with my mechanical centre diff lock and a snatch strap. He took it to the closest Toyota service agent the next week 200km away. If it had been a Land Rover it would have been 1100 km away. It's a massive difference.

[AndyG]

Forgive the ignorant question - I'm driving a 300Tdi so have no exposure to this, but what's an EKA?
:)
Emergency Key Access, a series of key movements to reset the immobilized.

now what's APY

So many acronyms

[tact]

Amazing photos! :cool:

Yes, electronics are a real issue now...

As a matter of interest, how much water came into the cabin during that crossing? If significant, was it over the seat base level?

Sorry mate but I have to take a shot at this (second time now in this thread alone)....(ref this post.... and watch the video linked: http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/215262-2016-defender-post2385139.html#post2385139 )

If it saves a few clicks - in summary: I have taken my puma through flood waters measured 900-1000mm deep. Static depth. Headlights completely underwater. Slow steady progress, no huge bow wave (had I pushed it hard could have had a wave up the windscreen).

In fact by going so steady, so little bow wave, there was more chance of water a metre deep entirely inside the engine bay. I wanted to see how I went.

Went through. Got out. No issues. Maybe 25mm water above floor level front and back (dual cab) leaked inside. Opened a door to let it out, hosed it out when I got home.

Had I stopped, or been stopped, and water above seat base flooded inside - certainly a different ending to the story.

[Robmacca]

On our trip to the Cape yast year, I kept an eye out for Defenders everywhere we went and came across this fella trying his luck at Nolans.... He just didn't quite make it out the other side, but no damage done to my knowledge, just a swimming pool in the back of his Defender :)

Can't say the same for all those other cars that were parked on the northside of Nolans drying out....

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/07/1199.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/07/1200.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/07/1201.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/07/1202.jpg

[Dervish]

As a matter of interest, how much water came into the cabin during that crossing? If significant, was it over the seat base level?

Not really significant, maybe an inch or two. The flow rate of water that gets through the door seals mean you'd have to be in there for a fair while for it to get up to the seats. The battery box is another matter though, a small volume with big holes in it - it got very wet. Same with the engine bay.

[tact]

Not really significant, maybe an inch or two. The flow rate of water that gets through the door seals mean you'd have to be in there for a fair while for it to get up to the seats. The battery box is another matter though, a small volume with big holes in it - it got very wet. Same with the engine bay.

Yeah in my little floodwater adventure water got into the battery box. water level mark still there today! But no issue!

[MrLandy]

Yeah in my little floodwater adventure water got into the battery box. water level mark still there today! But no issue!

I reckon you were pretty lucky tact. How about under drivers seat electrics?

[tact]

I reckon you were pretty lucky tact. How about under drivers seat electrics?

Luck had nothing to do with it.

Under driver seat barely a drop.

[DazzaTD5]

After working on Land Rover for what feels like two lifetimes....

New 2.4lt, 2.2lt Defender Puma models has made me come back to being a big Defender fan. Bluntly a Defender over the years has been a hodge-bodge of a vehicle, "oh we have a new engine, lets stick that in" "oh we have abs" etc etc. I find working on any Defender puma far better (read easier), doing a clutch on a puma is the easiest clutch to ever do on any Land Rover. Yet the clutch pedal assembly remains the same crap since the 60's.

Im in thought to either buy a Defender before the end of the year at around $53K drive away or a Wrangler Unlimited (Jeep word for 4 door wagon) diesel auto for round $42K drive away.... both great vehicles and Id prolly say a Defender is ........ more refined (yes two words never seen together (Defender, refined)).


or buy a Ford Ranger 3.2lt TDCi (puma) for round $43K drive away.... (ohhhhh I thought I would end with a joke and a laugh there).

Regards
Daz

P.S I do a lot of water proofing work to the Defender puma models, the electrics/electronics are far more reliable than any Disco 3/4, RRS, RR

[spudfan]

With the Defender 200 tdi I kept a door key in the engine department and a spare ignition key hidden inside. With the Puma it's not as easy. On my hillwalking trips I leave the main ignition key and fob hidden in the Defender and close/open with a spare set.
The work vehicles my employer uses (Renault Kangoo) have a habit of self locking if the key is left in the ignition in the off position and the driver's door closed. I always remove it just to avoid this. There is nothing in the handbook about this.
Was speaking to a driver of a heavily laden 130 Puma. Said he was given a choice of vehicle to pick by his employer. Settled on the Puma 130 as it was the only vehicle available that could be legally loaded to the required weight. He would have loved a Toyota but it was not up the the Defender's load carrying ability.
I spoke to contractors who were using td5's, the then current Defender, who could not praise the vehicle highly enough for it's ability in the rough and how it could be pushed so hard and give so much day in day out.I could have grown spuds in the muck that had gathered in the footwells. Sadly people who want a tough hardworking no frills vehicle are a minority and probably do not feature highly on L'R's future clientele for the new Defender.
People have said to both my wife and I how that they would like a Defender but it would be too hard to drive and park etc. Once given a ride in the Defender they soon change their minds.
Defender has an image of being a tough vehicle that is tough on the driver.The Puma is a wonderfully drver friendly vehicle - compared to previous Defender incarnations. The Range Rover, Discovery, Freelander etc have an image of being designed to be driver/passenger friendly so sell to the average motorist wanting something different. The Defender sells to halfwits like me who would not drive or could not live with anything else.
I have a cubbybox with two fold away cupholders screwed to the back of it in the 2008 Puma and the wife and kids this is a great idea. Yep they are easily pleased too.
The next Defender will no doubt have built in cupholders and lots of other customer friendly stuff, which is the market where the money is.
There are just not enough halfwits like me around to justify a spartan Defender when the new model arrives. People expect their car to have lots of gadgets otherwise they feel cheated. I look at the interior of my Pumas and smile like the halfwit I am. Nothing there that doesn't need to be, well except for two screwed on cupholders. Now that's class. Land Rover take note.
DEFENDER2.NET - View topic - cupholders (http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic3822.html?highlight=cupholders)

[Marty90]

I'd start with price for Wranglers. Just had a look the 2 door is under $40,000 driveaway. Personally I don't mind the look but I've never driven one and would never buy one.

The other reason is marketing. When was the last time you saw Land Rover advertising the Defender. I can't recall ever seeing a Defender add on TV. Even when they advertise their end of calendar year, financial year sales the Defender is never advertised. Whereas you'll see the Wrangler advertised all the time and its also used in ads for other companies generally with 4 young people in it, the top down and water in the back ground with the sun shining.

EXACTLY! When I first took mine for a test drive the salesman kept pointing out the negatives.Noise,gear change,Lack of power.I just kept on smiling and driving.My experience was love at first sight.I don't think Land rover(or at least their salespeople) think they're any good!You either love 'em or hate 'em

[MrLandy]

EXACTLY! When I first took mine for a test drive the salesman kept pointing out the negatives.Noise,gear change,Lack of power.I just kept on smiling and driving.My experience was love at first sight.I don't think Land rover(or at least their salespeople) think they're any good!You either love 'em or hate 'em

TOTALLY BIZARRE! Isn't it!?

[cuppabillytea]

My cup holders are heavily coated in condensed black coffee. I wonder if the new Defender will have shock absorbers in the cup holders.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

so what part of England is Slovakia in ?

[rar110]

Slovakia make components of the Magna Steyr transfer box in all 6 speed D3/4 & L322s. So I can see this being a possibility.

[Landi]

What are everyone's thoughts on the viability or likelihood of portal axles in the new defender? Has land rover ever toyed with the idea before?

[JDNSW]

They have "toyed" with the idea, I think - didn't the Forest Rover have portal axles? But seriously, for a mass production vehicle? I don't think there is the slightest possibility.

John

[Disco Muppet]

Yep, not a chance of portals!

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

[karlz]

Just a photo-shop glitch or something more sinister... :D

Cheers,

Lou

Its a Defender body on a unimog chassis!!!

[n plus one]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/05/208.jpg

This is one of many over the bonnet crossings we faced up at the Cape. After this, we drove the 3,500km home - that brought the vehicle's total just past 450,000km - took the gear out and I drove it to work the next day.

The thought of taking a vehicle with so many sensors and ecus up to the Cape would put me off entirely. Limping home the ~1000km from this crossing to the nearest dealer in Cairns would be a terrible experience. I personally am very reluctant to buy any overlanding vehicle with more electronics than the old faithful 300tdi, and I'm an electrical engineer.

Unfortunately that is why the new Defender doesn't interest me at all. At best, it's only fault will be a tiny, overstressed turbo-diesel covered in sensors and ECUs thanks to European emissions laws; but that alone is enough to put me off.

Looks like the unnamed crossing just before Nolans Brook - I've got a similar photo of my Puma going through that one too. Didn't get stuck in Nolans like that other fella in the White Puma though (think that disappointed the crowd a bit. For what it's worth my Pumas been filled up to the half way line on the front seat backs and just kept on trucking no dramas.

The modern vehicles just need a few additional bush mechanicing skills and know how (and I'm an (ex) electrical fitter mechanic). Agree there a lot to be said for the simple older rigs though - but again, you ain't gunna fix one of them without some skills either?

[MrLandy]

Looks like the unnamed crossing just before Nolans Brook - I've got a similar photo of my Puma going through that one too. Didn't get stuck in Nolans like that other fella in the White Puma though (think that disappointed the crowd a bit. For what it's worth my Pumas been filled up to the half way line on the front seat backs and just kept on trucking no dramas.

The modern vehicles just need a few additional bush mechanicing skills and know how (and I'm an (ex) electrical fitter mechanic). Agree there a lot to be said for the simple older rigs though - but again, you ain't gunna fix one of them without some skills either?

Interesting discussion...what would you say are the 5 most important mechanical/electrical skills/preparations/differences between taking a TDI and a Puma to the Cape?

[PAT303]

None.Mine between them have done 90% of Oz show room stock,the only real problem I've had with both was tyres,Coopers on the Tdi and MTR's on the TDCi. Outback reliability has little to do with the type of vehicle and more to do with lowering weight,driving to the conditions and using common sense,they are also in my experience the things 90% of travelers get wrong. Pat

[n plus one]

None.Mine between them have done 90% of Oz show room stock,the only real problem I've had with both was tyres,Coopers on the Tdi and MTR's on the TDCi. Outback reliability has little to do with the type of vehicle and more to do with lowering weight,driving to the conditions and using common sense,they are also in my experience the things 90% of travelers get wrong. Pat

I reckon that's a pretty fair comment in my experience.

There's probably a couple of different things/known issues to be aware of between a Tdi and Tdci - for example, higher mileage Tdcis often get Suction Control Valve issues and fuel quality is probably more of an issue too. Being aware of/preventing the turbo hose rub issue is another one. Also knowing your EKA code would be worthwhile as is being aware of the fuel tank breather location and that some servos seem to affect the alarm system. The only additional tools I carry are a diagnostic system.

That said, pretty much every issue I've had has been from driving too hard :wasntme: or from modifications -for example I gotta suspension clunk out near the Stoney Desert because the installer had put the rubbers and washers in incorrectly (and I was fair flogging along too).

End of my O/T diversion!

[MrLandy]

None.Mine between them have done 90% of Oz show room stock,the only real problem I've had with both was tyres,Coopers on the Tdi and MTR's on the TDCi. Outback reliability has little to do with the type of vehicle and more to do with lowering weight,driving to the conditions and using common sense,they are also in my experience the things 90% of travelers get wrong. Pat

Interesting isn't it. That's why I asked the question. I've got a Nanocom, but never needed to use it. Otherwise it's all about good packing, good driving, good tyres. Bridgestone D661's for me.

I had the same issue with my Koni Raids, oneplusone, had them installed when I was busy, then had to replace the bushes myself on the road. Koni's awesome ever since.

[MrLandy]

....here it is! the 2018 Defender!? 😄

[carlschmid2002]

....here it is! the 2018 Defender!? 😄

That's The Discovery 5

[MrLandy]

Or is it the Disco sport? Or new Range Rover Sport? I can't tell. Nah surely it's the new Defender?

[steane]

Or is it the Disco sport? Or new Range Rover Sport? I can't tell. Nah surely it's the new Defender?

Ain't that the truth. I have no doubt the new models will be/are awesome machines but their styling has become so slick and similar that it's difficult to tell them all apart.

It's a weird sort of beautifully styled blandness.

I prefer the D4 and old Sport personally, from a styling perspective at least. They have a solid presence.

[DiscoMick]

I hope the Defender retains some tough bushable looks and doesn't end up looking like other SUVs.

[cuppabillytea]

So do I, and I'm quietly confident that it will. :)

[Rolly]

That shot above looks like a Ford Territory!

[cuppabillytea]

That shot above looks like a Ford Territory!
It does!! That's what I thought but I didn't want to blaspheme. :angel:

[Didge]

Ford still have a big influence - check the similarity between the Ranger and Range Rover bonnets - you could almost interchange them and the RR lights are heavily Ford influenced designs.

[MrLandy]

It does!! That's what I thought but I didn't want to blaspheme. :angel:

...it also looks like a 200 series Toyota and an Audi and a VW Toureg and a Porsche Cayenne ... But No don't blaspheme! Don't question. You'll get called a traitor. If it's got the green oval badge it must be awesome!

[Tombie]

...it also looks like a 200 series Toyota and an Audi and a VW Toureg and a Porsche Cayenne ... But No don't blaspheme! Don't question. You'll get called a traitor. If it's got the green oval badge it must be awesome!


And it probably will be.

Just not in the way you want it to be.

[PAUL200]

Shame it going to be built in Slovakia......yet more outsourcing to the EU.

One of justifications for buying a Defender was that its built in the UK.

[tact]

Shame it going to be built in Slovakia......yet more outsourcing to the EU.

One of justifications for buying a Defender was that its built in the UK.

My 2013 dual cab was "manufactured" in the UK. Shipped to Malaysia in flat packs. Assembled/built in Malaysia

[AndyG]

There's a thought, probably no more flat pack assembly.
Where did it occur in 2015.

A trivia question would be where did LR ever assemble

[cuppabillytea]

The Ford ranger is designed in Australia and built any where BUT. Is this the future for LR?

[Pickles2]

The Ford ranger is designed in Australia and built any where BUT. Is this the future for LR?
The Ranger is a VERY impressive vehicle. I read a recent comparison where it even knocked off the new HiLux.
Pickles.

[weeds]

The Ranger is a VERY impressive vehicle. I read a recent comparison where it even knocked off the new HiLux.
Pickles.


What makes them VERY impressive??

I have an 2012 3.2 BT50 (basically a Ranger) and a late 2014 hi-lux in my fleet......they both have pro and cons.

The ranger comes out in front because it has 3.5T towing, six speed auto, rear locker and is more car like inside. If you don't need 3.5T and all the frills than I reckon the hi-lux does all right, overpriced perhaps. The hi-lux drags our camper and three kids where ever we need to go.

[AndyG]

The Ranger is a VERY impressive vehicle. I read a recent comparison where it even knocked off the new HiLux.
Pickles.

I did a 4wd course recently, the instructor discussed a ranger that recently attended. When forced to stall on a steep slope, it went into limp mode and stayed there. So possibly hasn't been tested in a full regime of 4wd scenarios

[Pickles2]

What makes them VERY impressive??

I have an 2012 3.2 BT50 (basically a Ranger) and a late 2014 hi-lux in my fleet......they both have pro and cons.

The ranger comes out in front because it has 3.5T towing, six speed auto, rear locker and is more car like inside. If you don't need 3.5T and all the frills than I reckon the hi-lux does all right, overpriced perhaps. The hi-lux drags our camper and three kids where ever we need to go.
Yep, VERY impressive.
The Hilux has long been accepted as THE vehicle in its class,...so, for a relatively new vehicle like the Ranger, to even come close, is an achievement, and when it's compared to the "NEW" Hilux, it's even more impressive,...one of the major points for the Ranger being its very good 5 cyl diesel, which in the report I read, was clearly superior to anything powering the Hilux.
Of course it's early days, sales figures over time will tell the story,....another telling fact that Hilux is "feeling the pressure", is that Toyota is offering BIG discounts on the new model, which is somewhat unusual for a Hilux release.
But, I certainly ain't knocking the Hilux, it's really a "Legend Vehicle" I guess, it's really looked unchallengeable for ages.
Time will tell I guess, Pickles.

[weeds]

Oh I don't like either..........if I had to buy a dual cab, apart from thinking they are all crap....I'm not sure which one I would pick.

[MrLandy]

Oh I don't like either..........if I had to buy a dual cab, apart from thinking they are all crap....I'm not sure which one I would pick.

Agreed.

[tact]

Oh I don't like either..........if I had to buy a dual cab, apart from thinking they are all crap....I'm not sure which one I would pick.

Agreed! Been there...!

2yrs ago was back in the market for a 4x4 after some 7yrs without one. Used to be a hilux aficionado so it was the first natural choice.

Very real disappointment set in.

Looked then at the other dual cab makes and all generated the same level of disappointment as the then (2013) new hilux.

Bought my first Defender.

[MrLandy]

The dual cabs are lightweights, jacked up cars, being touted as heavy duty. I drove a new Amarok for a while. Great 'car' but very soft. ..if the new Defender goes down this path it will flop. Again, the only market Defender should be after is the Tojo 75 series HD market, which was rightfully Land Rovers market until they dropped the ball on marketing and service in the 80's.

[BadCo.]

If I was to buy a new ute it would probably be the foton. Cummins engine and Dana diff's with a LSD, sounds good to me.

Pending a test drive of course...

But I have a '88 110 that will out live me so I won't be needing a new wagon ;)

Sent from my Nexus 4 using AULRO mobile app

[Pickles2]

Well, Which "path" will the "New" Defender go down?
Fifty yrs ago these current buyers of HiLux/Ranger or whatever would've been a real chance to buy a Landrover, because there was really not much else,...a bit different to today.
I don't see the "New" defender competing with Hilux etc, I don't think JLR want to be in that price/bracket/field,.....actually I don't feel they'd be able to.
Anyway, as far as my opinion is concerned, it's hypothetical, 'cause I know nothing.
Pickles.

[AndyG]

Oh I don't like either..........if I had to buy a dual cab, apart from thinking they are all crap....I'm not sure which one I would pick.

LR 130 :D

[DiscoMick]

Well, Which "path" will the "New" Defender go down?
Fifty yrs ago these current buyers of HiLux/Ranger or whatever would've been a real chance to buy a Landrover, because there was really not much else,...a bit different to today.
I don't see the "New" defender competing with Hilux etc, I don't think JLR want to be in that price/bracket/field,.....actually I don't feel they'd be able to.
Anyway, as far as my opinion is concerned, it's hypothetical, 'cause I know nothing.
Pickles.
By delaying the new Defender JLR have been able to amortise many of the costs of the parts likely to go into it, such as the engines and the aluminium platform used in various LRs and RRs, so I think they should be able to get the price of a Defender down pretty low, particularly for base models.

[Tombie]

But, I certainly ain't knocking the Hilux, it's really a "Legend Vehicle" I guess, it's really looked unchallengeable for ages.
Time will tell I guess, Pickles.

Strange wasn't it - the phenomenon... The product wasn't that great (hasn't been for a long long time) and was in regular need of repair and servicing.

But they marketed it well, offered substantial discounts to large corporations, and got them out there...

Mining boys drove them daily, and then got one for personal use - And I'm not sure if they really had the understanding how often the things are serviced and repaired.

Their "legendary' reputation / status I believe is more akin to "Superstar" phenomenon - No substance - just continued hype.


People would comment quite regularly on site - "That (Ranger/BT50/Amarok) is great really liked it -but I went with a Hilux because they're a Toyota"

[debruiser]

I had the older 3L Ranger, it was a nice CAR to drive. But when the going got serious (load up the tray wiht dirt or tow a heavy trailer) it had plenty of power, but I felt 1st was too fast and the chassis too flexy.

The new 3.2L Ranger is just a big fat car. I don't like it.

If I was to buy a new dual cab? I think I'd seriously look at a 2nd hand 110 or 130 depending on my needs at the time. Other than that I'd be going to every single manufacturer regardless of brand and test driving each car. See what feels the best. There are lots out there, but they all seem to be a bit soft, too car like to be a real work horse.

2016 defender? I hope that they don't go soft on it. Stuff like carpet and crap shouldn't be in there....

[AndyG]

Crap like

Alpine windows
Sunroof
Alpine stereo & subwoofer
Leather seats
Metallic paint
Side steps
Tint

Your right, it's the beginning of the end.
Oh, and permently fitted beer fridge :angel:

[MrLandy]

Crap like

Alpine windows been there forever
Sunroof madness I agree but I got one by default
Alpine stereo & subwoofer awesome compared to anything else I've had
Leather seats nice if you can afford them but canvas covers are better for me
Metallic paint irrelevant
Side steps whatever
Tint old fashioned

Your right, it's the beginning of the end.
Oh, and permently fitted beer fridge :angel:

He he but none of that is relevant to the bushability of a new defender, except the built in beer fridge of course!

[Andrew86]

Well, Which "path" will the "New" Defender go down?

The same path it has always been going down, only safer, quieter and with fewer leaks :D

JLR have produced some pretty special designs lately, I'm sure they'll come up with something that honours the Defender's heritage while maintaining equal focus on the future.

Land Rover has been pretty clear in their intentions to run three distinct product lines, being Range Rover, Discovery and Defender. Range Rover will be the flagship luxury brand, Defender will be the lower cost, go-anywhere adventurer/utilitarian and Discovery will sit somewhere in between. Moving Defender production to Slovakia is no doubt a cost cutting measure, but if that means they can give us a brilliant new car that doesn't cost $100k then that's fine by me.

JLR learned their lesson with the DC100 concept, I don't think we're going to be too disappointed with what comes in 2018/19.

[MrLandy]

The same path it has always been going down, only safer, quieter and with fewer leaks :D

JLR have produced some pretty special designs lately, one design actually! ... just a few different sizes! I'm sure they'll come up with something that honours the Defender's heritage while maintaining equal focus on the future.

Land Rover has been pretty clear in their intentions to run three distinct product lines, really? I think they are all aimed at the same market, only the pricing is (slightly) different! being Range Rover, Discovery and Defender. Range Rover will be the flagship luxury brand, Defender will be the lower cost, go-anywhere arent they all supposed to be "go anywhere"?adventurer/utilitarian and Discovery will sit somewhere in between. Moving Defender production to Slovakia is no doubt a cost cutting measure, but if that means they can give us a brilliant new car that doesn't cost $100k then that's fine by me. if Defender is even anywhere near $100K!! I rest my case.

JLR learned their lesson with the DC100 concept, how do you know? I don't think we're going to be too disappointed with what comes in 2018/19.

Hmmmm

[debruiser]

Crap like

Alpine windows meh... not needed
Sunroof My defender doesn't have one...
Alpine stereo & subwoofer OK yes this is nice to have BUT a bit over the top really.
Leather seats don't need nor want.
Metallic paint I actually didn't buy from my local dealer because that's all he would give me; chose to drive 400kms each way to get keswick green!
Side steps maybe rock sliders for protection
Tint aftermarket... but really not needed.

Your right, it's the beginning of the end.
Oh, and permently fitted beer fridge :angel:

Beer fridge needs to be mandatory, I can't figure out why this isn't part of the ADR's yet.

Most of that stuff I have no problem with. Carpet I don't like in a car - it's way too hard to clean! Yes I know it sucks up bucket loads of noise, but I prefer to have easy cleaning.

I was actually referring more to electric seats and mirrors, over electrified computerized everything stuff. As well as all the extra pretty things that they bling cars with these days.

[MrLandy]

Like your style debruiser. 👍

[Andrew86]

one design actually! ... just a few different sizes!

One design? There's a J in JLR, and the F-Type is one of the best looking cars around today. As for the Land Rover range, I quite like the styling they've got going at the moment. Of course they'll carry some of that 'brand DNA' through to the Defender, but JLR are the owners of the IP of one of the most recognisable silhouettes in automotive history and you can bet your bottom dollar they're going to retain elements of that design in the new car.


really? I think they are all aimed at the same market, only the pricing is (slightly) different!

If that were the case, no one would be buying the more expensive Rangies.


arent they all supposed to be "go anywhere"?

Sure, but not everyone wants to scratch their $500,000 SVAutobiography. They certainly don't suit the pig farmers of Somerset.


how do you know?

Because everyone hated it and Land Rover openly acknowledged that feedback.

"Reactions to the cartoonish DC100 (DC for Defender Concept) shown at the 2011 Frankfurt show were violent enough that Land Rover design guru Gerry McGovern issued a disclaimer, saying it was only 'the beginning of a four-year journey' to redesign a British icon as identifiable as Big Ben."

[MrLandy]

F-type Defender you reckon? Pfffft.

...umm, not only do ALL new model Land Rover models basically look the same...AND the same as virtually every other new SUV! ...and they are ALL aimed at the cashed up disurbanite market. Sorry but homogeneity does not equal diversity, no matter how you look at it.

[Andrew86]

F-type Defender you reckon? Pfffft.

What? No. It's just a sign of their capacity to do great things.


...umm, not only do ALL new model Land Rover models basically look the same...AND the same as virtually every other new SUV! ...and they are ALL aimed at the cashed up disurbanite market. Sorry but homogeneity does not equal diversity, no matter how you look at it.

It sounds like you've got a chip on your shoulder to me. Every brand has its 'look' that they replicate across the range to make sure people know what they're looking at.

There's no need to do that to the same degree with the Defender though. Its shape is a brand in itself that's been established over 65+ years. As I said, they're not going to throw that away for the sake of homogeneity.

The latest VW Beetle doesn't look anything like a Golf, and the next Defender will look nothing like a Discovery. Relax :)

[MrLandy]

Yawn 💤😇

[BadCo.]

Yawn 💤😇

Now you are just being a troll.

Andrew86 has made some interesting points and all you can say is, yawn?

[MrLandy]

Ok....


What? No. It's just a sign of their capacity to do great things. What year was the last E-Type made? All new Jaguars look like homogenous sports saloons. Could be a ford really.



It sounds like you've got a chip on your shoulder to me. Every brand has its 'look' that they replicate across the range to make sure people know what they're looking at. Yawn

There's no need to do that to the same degree with the Defender though. Its shape is a brand in itself that's been established over 65+ years. As I said, they're not going to throw that away for the sake of homogeneity. I think it will be a travesty.

The latest VW Beetle doesn't look anything like a Golf, and the next Defender will look nothing like a Discovery. Relax :) Totally relaxed bro.

...the new beetle is a perfect case in point. It does look like a cartoon parody of the original. It's too big and it even comes with a dicky plastic flower on the dashboard! I rest my case.
Cheers.

[Disco Muppet]

Carpet is fine, my carpets (and my work vehicles) frequently get grease, oil, mud, cow ****, etc tracked into them, as well as getting soaking wet, and 5 minutes with some auto carpet cleaner, a brush, and a vacuum cleaner and it's good as new.
Of course, I accept that I'm a plastic fantastic blinged up weekend warrior for cleaning my car as part of its up keep, as opposed to those true blue bearded Africa exploring adventure types who Rove without fear of ever touching a cleaning product......:angel:



Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

[rar110]

Of course, I accept that I'm a plastic fantastic blinged up weekend warrior for cleaning my car as part of its up keep, as opposed to those true blue bearded Africa exploring adventure types who Rove without fear of ever touching a cleaning product......:angel: Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

I was in the anti-clean clan. Until the paint started peeling off my 110.

[Andrew86]

All new Jaguars look like homogenous sports saloons. Could be a ford really.

Well our eyes clearly see different things.


Yawn

Nice.


I think it will be a travesty.

And I think it won't be, so we'll just have to wait and see. I see plenty of evidence to warrant adopting a more positive outlook. I'm sure you'll hate it either way, and the latte sipping scourge that'll buy it! :p


...the new beetle is a perfect case in point. It does look like a cartoon parody of the original. It's too big and it even comes with a dicky plastic flower on the dashboard!

It hasn't come with a flower for over 10 years...

My point was that VW has kept the Beetle as its own entity and deliberately chose not make it look like the rest of their fleet. The Beetle shape is instantly recognisable and it makes sense to capitalise on that.

I see no reason why LR would treat the Defender any differently. 65 years of heritage is something that no amount of advertising could ever replicate. They aren't going to bin all that and copy-paste a Discoevoquesport over it.

[MrLandy]

Cool guys, lets agree to disagree 😎
...By the way, I wash my Landy, i have marine carpet in the back, and I have a beard! None of which has anything to do with the design debate.

Cheers

[kogvos]

I was in the anti-clean clan. Until the paint started peeling off my 110.
I thought he was talking about the drivers.

[debruiser]

Carpet is fine, my carpets (and my work vehicles) frequently get grease, oil, mud, cow ****, etc tracked into them, as well as getting soaking wet, and 5 minutes with some auto carpet cleaner, a brush, and a vacuum cleaner and it's good as new.
Of course, I accept that I'm a plastic fantastic blinged up weekend warrior for cleaning my car as part of its up keep, as opposed to those true blue bearded Africa exploring adventure types who Rove without fear of ever touching a cleaning product......:angel:



Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

I wasn't calling you names at all.... If/when I buy another 4x4 then I would just like the option of not having carpet. I don't have carpet in the house either if that makes any difference. Don't get me wrong if I was buying a family car/saloon etc then I would be looking for some bells and whistles but in my 4x4 I want simple, easy, effective.

Would would really be bling is if they could come up with some paint job that never got dirty in the first place! :D

I guess when it boils down though, it really doesn't matter what we want because LR is just going to build what they THINK we want. Or maybe more accurately what they THINK English or European countries want?

[cuppabillytea]

I had a shower today. Biddy hasn't had a wash since Expo. (She Didn't win a prize. :mad:)

[tact]

Carpet is fine... [...]


No it's not. The kind of mud that sticks to everything, three paces and you add 300mm to your height, kind of mud. Water-logged carpet stinking in humid steamy Equatorial rainforest after 4 days ...

I like my rubber mats and moreso - the no nonsense, no FOOTWELLS. Just a hose out flat floor (or park it in a river 600-700mm deep and open the doors for current to flow through)



Of course, I accept that I'm a plastic fantastic blinged up weekend warrior for cleaning my car as part of its up keep, as opposed to those true blue bearded Africa exploring adventure types who Rove without fear of ever touching a cleaning product......:angel:

Apart from above mentioned ablutions mine gets a wash when sent in for a service (if I forget to tell them NOT to), and after the drive out of the jungle it gets an underbody hosing to liberate several dozen kilograms of caked mud from under chassis (not really a "wash") before the few to several hours highway run home.

(I don't have a beard and MUST bathe personally every day - if I want my wife's hugs)

[cuppabillytea]

(I don't have a beard and MUST bathe personally every day - if I want my wife's hugs)

Is that all you have to do for a hug?..........Might try that. :whistling:

[AndyG]

This thread is becoming very circular, so returning to an earlier post, where does Jlr see their Defender market primarily.
Is it the bearded overlander,
The Chelsea hipster
Or
The military, Govt, NGO, Mining, Utility sector.
If the latter we will see something very different to the Disco and RR themes.

Now can we all be patient for 2 years.
Hope they come out with a single cab 130, grey nomad time.:p

[Disco Muppet]

For reference, I was talking about the cars not the drivers, but whatever floats your boat :p

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

[MrLandy]

This thread is becoming very circular, so returning to an earlier post, where does Jlr see their Defender market primarily.
Is it the bearded overlander,
The Chelsea hipster
Or
The military, Govt, NGO, Mining, Utility sector.
If the latter we will see something very different to the Disco and RR themes.

Now can we all be patient for 2 years.
Hope they come out with a single cab 130, grey nomad time.:p

Well put AndyG, category three is obviously where they should be pitching it, but I think it's unlikely. Chelsea Hipster is my bet, like all other new Land Rover products.

It's pretty clear that Toyota are focussed on the right sectors with their redesign of the 70 series. New model 2017 aiming for 5 star ANCAP rating. They have stated very clearly the intended direction the 70 series will be headed, “These updates will support continued strong buyer demand for an unapologetically rugged vehicle that is renowned for its heavy-duty capabilities,” Cramb said.

“We have worked closely with employers in mining, agriculture, construction, communications support and recreation to develop these improvements."

This is the kind of straight-up news we need to hear from Land Rover about Defender.

[Andrew86]

Well put AndyG, category three is obviously where they should be pitching it, but I think it's unlikely. Chelsea Hipster is my bet, like all other new Land Rover products.

To be fair, the current car has become a pretty popular Chelsea Tractor. Companies like Twisted and Urban Truck have never had more business :cool:

I suspect Land Rover will start drip feeding information on the new Defender mid next year after production at Solihull stops. I doubt they'll adopt the same commercial focus as Toyota, but who knows.

[Landybitz]

This thread is becoming very circular, so returning to an earlier post, where does Jlr see their Defender market primarily.
Is it the bearded overlander,
The Chelsea hipster
Or
The military, Govt, NGO, Mining, Utility sector.
If the latter we will see something very different to the Disco and RR themes.

Now can we all be patient for 2 years.
Hope they come out with a single cab 130, grey nomad time.:p

Middle class, who want something different yet carries heritage.

[cuppabillytea]

This thread is becoming very circular,

More like a Vortex.

[MrLandy]

A vortex indeed CBT. ...all I'm trying to do is break some alternate thinking out of the JLR luxury vortex, to suggest that a new Defender design need not be about mass market presumptions, or the JLR formula, which sees every single vehicle it makes now clearly aimed at the luxury disurbanite.

To reconsider the origins of the 90/110/130 designs' success which was always about pragmatic functional capable durable simplicity, rather than merely the trendy 'look' of pragmatic functional capable durable simplicity.

...Will they pare it back to its essence with the new 'Defender'? including all that the digital age and monocoque construction offers. I hope so!

It's an interesting discussion we're all having here.

[cuppabillytea]

It is an interesting discussion MrLandy and you do well in promoting it. I just wish that there was a way to convince you that it would be absolutely pointless for JLR to Produce a new Defender which takes the form you fear it will, when they have that section of the market cornered.
They have no option but to make the absolute best, most versatile All Terrain vehicle possible, or forget the Land Rover Mark and revert to the Rover Mark.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'm confident that they can and that they will.
Cheers, Billy.

[MrLandy]

I really hope you're right Billy. All I can say is sorry! I don't share your optimism...I've really tried to convince myself, but I just don't see the evidence. I think it will be more like a D4 rebadged (especially given that the D5 looks like it will be a RRS rebadged). Cheers all.

[tact]

[...] a new Defender design need not be about mass market presumptions, or the JLR formula, which sees every single vehicle it makes now clearly aimed at the luxury disurbanite.


LR have stated "3 pillars". Range Rover. Discovery. Defender.

They started the revamp with Range Rover. They have just about done the Disco revamp.

Whilst it may be true today, "...every single vehicle it makes now clearly aimed at the luxury disurbanite." - Arguably both the Range Rover and Disco pillars fitted within the "luxury disurbanite" category you coin BEFORE the revamp.

I am with Cuppabillytea in pointing out the logical fallacy in applying the above to the Defender pillar.




To reconsider the origins of the 90/110/130 designs' success which was always about pragmatic functional capable durable simplicity, rather than merely the trendy 'look' of pragmatic functional capable durable simplicity.


I reckon that just because "everything they make now is aimed at" a certain demographic - doesn't mean this (same demographic target) will apply to the Defender pillar.

It might. It's just a bit "the sky is falling" to dread it right now.

"Pragmatic functional capable durable" is a cat that can be skinned many ways. With or without independent suspension, solid axles, monocoque or ladder chassis...

I also do not think that LR must pander to the hot selling markets with Defender. Given the premium profitable success in the Range Rover and Disco pillars - Defender may even be workable as a "loss leader". I.e. Low volume, unprofitable, but still feeding the legend and branding so a whole lot more wannabes feel like rugged explorers in their expensive profit making Toorak tractors.

[MrLandy]

Tact! ...Now you're talking my language! 😉👍😎 nice one.


I also do not think that LR must pander to the hot selling markets with Defender. Given the premium profitable success in the Range Rover and Disco pillars - Defender may even be workable as a "loss leader". I.e. Low volume, unprofitable, but still feeding the legend and branding so a whole lot more wannabes feel like rugged explorers in their expensive profit making Toorak tractors.

[AndyG]

Can we compare this to Jeep, we have mass market Cherokee etc and iconic wrangler, they all make money, wrangler provides the legeng

Or
We aremlooking from a 1St world perspective, maybe Tata seems the need for a 2Nd, 3Rd world work horse

[Orkney 90]

[QUOTE=tact;2445851


I also do not think that LR must pander to the hot selling markets with Defender. Given the premium profitable success in the Range Rover and Disco pillars - Defender may even be workable as a "loss leader". I.e. Low volume, unprofitable, but still feeding the legend and branding so a whole lot more wannabes feel like rugged explorers in their expensive profit making Toorak tractors.[/QUOTE]

If that were the case, there would be an argument for continuing the build of current Defenders, perhaps with some upgrades to better "conform" to modern standards. Like the evolution between the Series, Stage 1, 90 / 110 and Defender. Evolve rather than re-invent.

[Andrew86]

I just don't see the evidence. I think it will be more like a D4 rebadged.

Where's the evidence to suggest it will be another Disco though? Wouldn't that just cannibalise Disco sales while increasing costs and killing off an important element of their brand? It doesn't make any sense to me.

[MrLandy]

Where's the evidence to suggest it will be another Disco though? Wouldn't that just cannibalise Disco sales while increasing costs and killing off an important element of their brand? It doesn't make any sense to me.

If you look at the spy pics of the new D5 and Disco Sport they are clearly cannibalising the Range Rover Sport. Defender will 'look' more like D4 of old, IMHO. This fits with the current Land Rover urban luxury focus.

[MrLandy]

If that were the case, there would be an argument for continuing the build of current Defenders, perhaps with some upgrades to better "conform" to modern standards. Like the evolution between the Series, Stage 1, 90 / 110 and Defender. Evolve rather than re-invent.

Indeed. ...Interesting isn't it? But the evolution of the pop riveted beasty won't fit automated production lines (the real reason for Defender end of production IMO). Plenty of solid ladder frame chassis vehicles have evolved and still meet design regulations, have lots of airbags, etc.

[loneranger]

I think we should look to the Wrangler for inspiration. If you put a new Wrangler next to different ones through the years they are clearly evolving and having things added as technology improves. McGovern is on record as saying that the new Defender is going to be designed as if the Series 1 had undergone the natural design evolution over the last 70 years or so. My prediction is the new Defender will sit in the lineup with the current and past Defenders and Series and look like it has evolved.

All this fear about what it will be. Surely we all agree that Land Rover know how to build an off-road vehicle and the new Defender will be great off-road.

Not that I really care I have no intention of buying one as I've got my Defenders and have no intention of selling them in the next 20 years.:p

[tact]

Is that all you have to do for a hug?..........Might try that. :whistling:

Totally worth the effort (my experience, my wife). Your mileage may vary :twisted:

[tact]

Indeed. ...Interesting isn't it? But the evolution of the pop riveted beasty won't fit automated production lines (the real reason for Defender end of production IMO). Plenty of solid ladder frame chassis vehicles have evolved and still meet design regulations, have lots of airbags, etc.

I do believe that LR have been reported to say that making the current Defender meet requirements (grow in a bunch of airbags, crash cans here and crumple zones there) is just "too expensive". So nothing interesting for the grist mill there.

Any manufacturer worth feeding would have done the business case : Cost to fix what we have now VS cost to start over. Then make it a cost/benefit equation and weigh in the benefits, the value add, for the "starting over" case.

I am happy in the thought that maybe some sensible people who know how to build off-road machines might have done the math and decided that starting with a clean sheet may cost a little more than fixing the current beast - but look at all the cool ways we can make it BETTER by doing so.

If they avoid reinventing the wheel by pulling in some parts of other platforms (disco running gear for example) then good on 'em.

Using parts from the disco bin doesn't have to mean it's going to be a rebadged D4.

A "Pragmatic, functional, capable, durable" modern Defender could still be built on a Disco, Range Rover, or Jaguar base platform. (Well maybe not Jag).

[rar110]

I do believe that LR have been reported to say that making the current Defender meet requirements (grow in a bunch of airbags, crash cans here and crumple zones there) is just "too expensive". So nothing interesting for the grist mill there. Any manufacturer worth feeding would have done the business case : Cost to fix what we have now VS cost to start over. Then make it a cost/benefit equation and weigh in the benefits, the value add, for the "starting over" case. I am happy in the thought that maybe some sensible people who know how to build off-road machines might have done the math and decided that starting with a clean sheet may cost a little more than fixing the current beast - but look at all the cool ways we can make it BETTER by doing so. If they avoid reinventing the wheel by pulling in some parts of other platforms (disco running gear for example) then good on 'em. Using parts from the disco bin doesn't have to mean it's going to be a rebadged D4. A "Pragmatic, functional, capable, durable" modern Defender could still be built on a Disco, Range Rover, or Jaguar base platform. (Well maybe not Jag).

I'm betting there would be some loud voices in LR management that would have been pushing to drop the defender/series style design and move on to more lucrative markets. It's a bit like people wanting to keep building the Kingswood after the Commodore (WB ute did last a couple of years but was replaced).

Even the 76/78 series Is not hand built like a defender. And I thought Toyota were dropping this line of vehicles.

I think the new Defender will be more like a D4 under the skin. It will have either a mono or T5 design.

[Andrew86]

If you look at the spy pics of the new D5 and Disco Sport they are clearly cannibalising the Range Rover Sport.

The Discovery Sport is a repositioned Freelander, it's in a different league to the Range Rover models and appeals for different reasons. As for Discovery, it has always been a lower cost alternative to the big brother Range Rover so I'd expect it to look like a relative. The RR is a $200k+ car, so the Disco plugs the gap for those wanting a large 4WD without selling a kidney.

The Defender is different. I think this article explains it better than I could.

A new Discovery: Land Rover's 2016 Disco spied, plus info on next Defender and more by CAR Magazine (http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/spy-shots/land-rover/land-rover-new-2016-discovery-defender-and-more-to-come/)

"If the RR and Disco sit closely together, McGovern says the new line-up of Defenders will stretch out the Land Rover brand. 'Discovery is getting closer to Range Rover,' he says. 'But the Defenders, when you see those coming, they'll really bring clarity to the three-family scenario. They're out there, a working tool, probably closest to the original Land Rover heartland, but still relevant.'"

[Pickles2]

OK guys, lots of talk, lots of discussion, lots of ideas, SO,....I have a question.
Based on vehicles that are currently in production and available on the Aussie market, which vehicles do you think that the "New" Defender should, or will have to, compete with?
Pickles.

[WhiteD3]

Where are the spy shots (not the DC100 mock ups) of this new machine?

[Tote]

Given the demise of the Australian car industry there will be pressure to derestrict the import of vehicles from overseas. The obvious impact will be the introduction of US style pickups at a (maybe ) competitive cost. Dodge RAM 2500 and 3500 will announce pricing in November, this is a joint venture between Ateco and Walkenshaw and is sourcing vehicles direct from Dodge in the US. Ram Trucks Australia and New Zealand (http://www.ramtrucks.com.au/home/en/)
There are also rumours that the 78 serries vehicles may be replaced by a Tundra variant as well. Chrysler Australia are pushing to get access to a factory built 1500 Ram as well so that will also add variety to the market.

I think that in three years the 4wd market may be a very different place particularly around the dual cab ute sector.

Regards,
Tote

[Andrew86]

Based on vehicles that are currently in production and available on the Aussie market, which vehicles do you think that the "New" Defender should, or will have to, compete with?
Pickles.

Good question. The 70 series, FJ Cruiser and Wrangler/Rubicon come to mind, but I think Land Rover will be aiming higher than that.


Given the demise of the Australian car industry there will be pressure to derestrict the import of vehicles from overseas. The obvious impact will be the introduction of US style pickups at a (maybe ) competitive cost.

It isn't restrictions keeping cars like that out of Australia, it's the fact that GM/Ford/Chrysler aren't seeing a big enough market outside of the USA to produce them in RHD at the factory. As long as there's a third party involved doing the RHD conversions, they're always going to be hugely expensive.

[Pickles2]

Yes, it makes a huge difference if they're "Factory RHD".
Ya've only gotta look at the soon to be sold here Mustang, which when sold as an import was $100K+, but with Ford Aus selling 'em, they're around $65K.
Pickles.
NB: also, whilst talking price, in addition to my original question, where do you guys see the "New" Defender being priced?

[AndyG]

Yes, it makes a huge difference if they're "Factory RHD".
Ya've only gotta look at the soon to be sold here Mustang, which when sold as an import was $100K+, but with Ford Aus selling 'em, they're around $65K.
Pickles.
NB: also, whilst talking price, in addition to my original question, where do you guys see the "New" Defender being priced?

G Wagon
70 Series Toyota
Nissan Patrol
Wrangler
F100 ?

90/110/130 again or thereabouts

$15,000 above current models

[PAT303]

Yes, it makes a huge difference if they're "Factory RHD".
Ya've only gotta look at the soon to be sold here Mustang, which when sold as an import was $100K+, but with Ford Aus selling 'em, they're around $65K.
Pickles.
NB: also, whilst talking price, in addition to my original question, where do you guys see the "New" Defender being priced?

Same price as current models,Toyota can't sell '76 and '79 series vehicles priced from 60K in a country full of die hard followers so LR won't go there. Pat

[Disco Muppet]

Maybe if Toyota gave you any value for money with the V8 70s.
My work has one of the first V8 79s, GXL trim. It has aircon, a tape deck, electric Windows, and carpet.
Don't get me wrong, I love it, it's a great work vehicle and I put 1400km on it in the first two weeks and found it very enjoyable to drive, but for what you get the pricing is absolutely absurd.


Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

[loneranger]

I think you'd need to look at the pricing of the dual cab utes currently available to see where the new Defender will sit. As for competition if Land Rover want to compete in the Australian market its got to be against the DUal cabs and their wagon variants that they need to take market share from. You could argue the Disco is a competitor to the 200 Series Cruiser so Land Rover need to pitch the new Defender against current commerical 4 x 4 utes.

[MrLandy]

I think you'd need to look at the pricing of the dual cab utes currently available to see where the new Defender will sit. As for competition if Land Rover want to compete in the Australian market its got to be against the DUal cabs and their wagon variants that they need to take market share from. You could argue the Disco is a competitor to the 200 Series Cruiser so Land Rover need to pitch the new Defender against current commerical 4 x 4 utes.

Defender will never sell for $30-40K. It's competitor is whatever new 70 series Toyota come up with around $60K.

[Tote]

The Ranger Wildtrack is close enough to $70 K at about the same price as a 130. Nowhere near 30 - 40K. If the new Defender had the superior interior apointments and ergonomics than a Ranger then for $70K it would sell. Would also fit in well with the D4/5 starting around $80-85K.

Regards,
Tote

[loneranger]

I was thinking more the $45 and upwards market not the bargain basement povo pack tradies ute.

[Landybitz]

Is Australia Land Rovers Top market for a new Defender?

If they make a pick version it will have to be bloody good to compete, with all the brands out there now.

I would have thought key markets would the USA, and Europe, give the jeep a run for its money.

Saying that we do sell a large amount of 4wd cars of shapes and size's, $50 to 100k would not suppress me on selling prices.

[DiscoMick]

I thought this, from the Car report quoted below, was interesting:




And whereas McGovern worries a utilitarian look limits the appeal of the Range Rovers and Discos, it's less of an issue for Land Rover's third family (previewed by the DC100 concepts, above). ?For the Defender it's something else. There is that utilitarian look, but it's inextricably linked to the original so you get over it. The Defender is about durability ? you kick the hell out of them and they get up for more.?
Will there be more than one Defender?

There will be a number of different Defender models, to help Land Rover sell over 70k units a year, and to appeal to the Land Rover traditionalists who might perhaps be put off by the new Discos and RRs. ?We need the Defender to wash its wash in terms of investment,? admits McGovern. ?So there will be opportunities for different-sized vehicles: in the Middle East, for example, they want really big vehicles; in other markets the appetite is for small vehicles; and I'd argue you need the iconic three-door there as well.?
Not that the styling will be retro, as McGovern says the new models will bear no resemblance to the DC100 concepts: ?I think the Defender was good for it's time, but I think we've got to be quite radical, and create if we create a vehicle that is special and does resonate with people, they will forget what they had before.?

[MrLandy]

As usual from the disurban fantasy image spinners at Land Rover - too much emphasis on the "utilitarian 'look' ", the 'image' of kickability...not enough on the functional substance. It's all about meeting the market for the 'look' of urban escapeability / durability - and not enough about substantive construction, ability and durability.

[Andrew86]

As usual from the disurban fantasy image spinners at Land Rover - too much emphasis on the "utilitarian 'look' ", the 'image' of kickability...not enough on the functional substance.

I don't know how you got that from the article. He explicitly states that the Defender...
"is about durability, you kick the hell out of them and they get up for more."

What the hell is 'disurban', anyway?

[AndyG]

I didnt ralise there is already a TATA 4WD available. :o
All they have to do is engineer a green oval badge to fit, and order some keswick green :eek:

2014 Tata Xenon ute review | first drive- Car Reviews | CarsGuide (http://www.carsguide.com.au/car-reviews/2014-tata-xenon-ute-review-first-drive-12592)

What we don't
Less impressive heritage in Australia
Questionable safety
Rough dynamics

What does this remind you of , :D

[PAT303]

Is Australia Land Rovers Top market for a new Defender?

If they make a pick version it will have to be bloody good to compete, with all the brands out there now.

I would have thought key markets would the USA, and Europe, give the jeep a run for its money.

Saying that we do sell a large amount of 4wd cars of shapes and size's, $50 to 100k would not suppress me on selling prices.

If they do it bloody good,and all the signs are leading that way it would destroy the feeble POS utes sold here now. Pat

[loneranger]

If the main market LR want to compete in is the US does that mean the Defender ute will be aiming to compete with the F trucks and Silverados etc. In that case it will be huge. :D

[Tote]

If the main market LR want to compete in is the US does that mean the Defender ute will be aiming to compete with the F trucks and Silverados etc. In that case it will be huge. :D

Not necessarily, there is considerable discontent that the Ranger is not sold there since the release of the current model. The previous Ranger was a fairly successful model so there is a market for smaller pickups. Thats why Jeep keep flirting with a Wrangler ute.

Regards,
Tote

[MrLandy]

I don't know how you got that from the article. He explicitly states that the Defender...

What the hell is 'disurban', anyway?

Put simply, Disurbanity is the fantasy that you can escape urbanity by going bush. But that you actually take urbanity with you. It's a form of denial. It describes seeking the 'look' of adventure, the 'look' of nature (see my introduction post). It's what Land Rover have been trading on for years now...and have one chance to counteract by building a serious heavy duty work focussed new Defender.

While most contributors to this thread seem to think the new Defender will be awesome, based on pure faith. I am not so sure. ...based on JLR's track record over the past 10 years or so, focussing on building luxury vehicles, I doubt they even want to do it. I think the new Defender will be about the 'image' of durability and adventure, rather than being the real deal. ...Luxury disurbanity has now consumed the Land Rover brand IMO. I really hope I'm proven wrong!

[cuppabillytea]

So MrLandy, you take no heart from this latest snippet.?

[MrLandy]

So MrLandy, you take no heart from this latest snippet.?

Unfortunately no CBT, it's all spin, no substance.

[cuppabillytea]

Unfortunately no CBT, it's all spin, no substance.
You're a tough nut to crack but we'll get you. :twisted:

[MrLandy]

You're a tough nut to crack but we'll get you. :twisted:

He he 😇 you've got no chance if they try to pass a Hilux competitor off as a Defender.

[Andrew86]

While most contributors to this thread seem to think the new Defender will be awesome, based on pure faith. I am not so sure. ...based on JLR's track record over the past 10 years or so, focussing on building luxury vehicles, I doubt they even want to do it. I think the new Defender will be about the 'image' of durability and adventure, rather than being the real deal.

You talk about track record, but then ignore the fact that the Defender has been the 'real deal' for over six decades. It has never been a car for the 'disurbanite' (which I maintain isn't a word) and I've seen absolutely no evidence to suggest it ever will be.

I really don't think there's anything Land Rover can do to please you in 2018. If they add an airbag, you'll say it's gone soft. If they build it without a single leak, you'll say it's lost all its character. If they make it comfortable to drive, you'll say they've caved to the demands of the disurbanite.

Tough nut indeed.

[MrLandy]

You talk about track record, but then ignore the fact that the Defender has been the 'real deal' for over six decades. It has never been a car for the 'disurbanite' [ Yes I totally agree with you here, this is what is at risk. and I've seen absolutely no evidence to suggest it ever will be. I've seen plenty of evidence with the DC100 concept (despite us being told it's been scrapped) and the way the rest of the Land Rover model line up is heading, to be very concerned, and conversely nothing tangible whatsoever to demonstrate otherwise.

I really don't think there's anything Land Rover can do to please you in 2018. If they add an airbag, you'll say it's gone soft. If they build it without a single leak, you'll say it's lost all its character. If they make it comfortable to drive, you'll say they've caved to the demands of the disurbanite. The next Defender should absolutely have 10 airbags, awesome seats, not leak and not be soft. No argument with you here either. The current Defender is already the most comfortable large 4WD on the market IMO, especially for long drives. But I suggest the iconic upright seating position and feet flat on the flat floors driving position that facilitates this is in jeopardy. The command driving position looks to be lost in the D5 spy pics, which almost makes me want a D4!!

I think you're confusing what I'm saying it should be with what I'm concerned it won't be. I'm simply going on the evidence in front of me that so far clearly indicates a luxury urban cruiser focus for the Land Rover brand. And we've seen no hard evidence yet to dispel that about Defender.

Tough nut indeed. Yes indeed and proud to be standing up for what the next Defender should be, not prepared to blindly accept some gone soft roader hilux chaser just because it has Defender written in it


Cheers

[JDNSW]

Unfortunately, much as I hate to say it, I fear that MrLandy is likely to be right.

It may help to look at a bit of history.

Rover got into the car manufacturing business (from bicycles) over a hundred years ago. In the 1920s, they tried to emulate Austin and Morris (who had taken a leaf from Henry's book!), but the result of this was the appointment of a new board by their bankers, who appointed a new MD called Wilkes. He steered the company into success making cars for a niche market - middle class (British) urban buyers. This was so successful that the company grew very significantly as a military manufacturer during WW2.

After the war, faced with a government determined to remove classes in Britain (including their market) and post-war shortages, they found, more or less by accident, another niche market - light civilian four wheel drives, mainly selling to primary production, mining and exploration, and governments of all types. This expanded as cash strapped post-war military purchasers over much of the world turned to Landrovers as a cheaper, but 'good enough' substitute for specialised military vehicles.

The introduction of the Rangerover moved one of their Landrover products into their primary middle class market, by coincidence, at the same time as a merger with Leyland meant loss of control of the company. Ultimately, this led to the downgrading of the Rover name to the Austin/Morris mass market. At the same time, the niche Landrover and Rangerover were neglected by the new owners.

Following the sell off of Landrover/Rangerover from Leyland, the company, which was really the original Rover company, put their effort into the Rangerover, moving it further up market. Upmarket can be very profitable, but it is very unstable, and the history of the car industry is littered with the remains of companies that made only products near the top of the market.

With the company facing serious trouble with the ageing Defender and Rangerover (which had been steadily moving up market) both needing a lot of investment, they returned in the late eighties to the same market that had saved the company in the thirties - the middle class - with the Discovery. This was so successful that the company is now one of the most successful car manufacturers in the world. But this leaves the Defender with little development in the last twenty-five years, being manufactured by a company that sells all the rest of their products to the middle to upper class urban market.

And this market, that Rover had pretty much to themselves in the fifties, has been largely taken by the very large manufacturers who have been able to supply it with modified versions of their mass produced vehicles, taking much of the market, thanks mainly to their dealer network and the lower costs of mass production.

Unfortunately, this situation is still there - despite their success, Landrover is still a small manufacturer in global terms, and I have to wonder whether they will attempt to wrest this market back from the likes of Toyota, or simply merge the Defender label into their existing, successful, market.

John

[cuppabillytea]

Thanks for that insight John. It is a very accurate over view. The one thing that makes me wonder wether that is their intention is their move to the manufacture of the new Defender off shore.
To manufacture it in large numbers in Britain would require investment in a large new plant. If it is their intention to build another 'Middle Class' car there would be no need to go off shore.
They can make a cheeper, high quality, high volume product by engaging existing high quality component manufacturers close to a main plant where most of the product would be built.
This was, after all, the same method that Toyota used, although it was all done in Japan in their case.
Cheers, Billy.

[Disco Muppet]

The Sky hasn't fallen yet gentlemen, and while some of you think the forecast suggests rain, I have my confidence it will be far sunnier than predicted ;)

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

[Pickles2]

Well, I certainly don't have a problem with anything that JLR is doing. Taken themselves from the very verge of Bankruptcy, to now become one of the most progressive car manufacturers in the World. EVERY new model they have introduced has been an outsanding success.
Take Evoque for example, 100,000+ sales in its first year, Disco Sport,...massive waiting lists, compare that with defender,...prior to this last year of "last chance demand", it was around 17000 WORLD WIDE,...clearly unsatisfactory.
So, what will the "New" Defender be like?....Well it'd better appeal better than the old one?...What will it be like?......massive differences of opinion just in this thread,....What should it be like.....again massive differences of opinion,.....and all fair enough,.......BUT........JLR will have to make, in all probability have already made, the decision,.....What it "WILL" be,bearing in mind it will have to sell,......no point in making some "niche" vehicle,........that is not how companies survive these days,....unless the price is such that there is a HUGE margin.
So, a big decision for JLR, I reckon that they have proven thay they know what they're doing,....the "New" Defender may not be what we like or want, but "We" are very much in the minority,......as far as the World market is concerned,......I reckon that whatever they produce will be a winner.
What that "winner" is?.....Nobody knows!!..Pickles.

[Disco Muppet]

Exactly pickles.
Let's face it, it won't matter what the new Defender is, people are going to be unhappy.
People have been unhappy with basically every update land rover has done in the last 30 years, and look where it is now.
All things must pass, the Defender has had a damn good run, and cemented itself in the history books, but it's a relic. Its time to move on, and the future is much more exciting when you look at it with a glass half full approach.

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

[Tote]

Jeep have trodden a successful development path from the TJ to the JK Wrangler in a niche market and have achieved long term sustainability of a vehicle that is certainly not without "Character" or unfit for purpose.
So it should be possible for LR to keep everyone reasonably happy.

Regards,
Tote

[Andrew86]

I've seen plenty of evidence with the DC100 concept (despite us being told it's been scrapped) and the way the rest of the Land Rover model line up is heading, to be very concerned, and conversely nothing tangible whatsoever to demonstrate otherwise.

The DC100 is a five year old concept that was widely criticised and explicitly scrapped. Concept cars are there to test the market, nothing more.

As for the rest of the line up, so what? The Defender is a totally different pillar in the brand. Take a look at Porsche. People were up in arms when they started producing the Cayenne and now the Macan SUVs, but the fact is, these hugely profitable products were needed to fund the continued development of the 'true' Porsche, the iconic 911.

Try to think about Land Rover in the same way. The luxury SUV market is where the money is, and they've tapped into that with great success. That doesn't mean the Defender has to go down the same path, it just means they've got enough in the coffers to keep it going as a true representation of its heritage.


I think you're confusing what I'm saying it should be with what I'm concerned it won't be. I'm simply going on the evidence in front of me that so far clearly indicates a luxury urban cruiser focus for the Land Rover brand. And we've seen no hard evidence yet to dispel that about Defender.

The Defender will be more comfortable, more refined, safer, better built, more modern looking and appealing to more people. That doesn't mean it'll be a Range Rover with some chequer plate on the bonnet. The evidence, and logic, suggests to me that it'll remain true to the car it's replacing. If I'm wrong, then I guess we'll all just rest easy knowing we're lucky enough to own the last of the true Land Rovers.

[PAT303]

Unfortunately, much as I hate to say it, I fear that MrLandy is likely to be right.

It may help to look at a bit of history.

Rover got into the car manufacturing business (from bicycles) over a hundred years ago. In the 1920s, they tried to emulate Austin and Morris (who had taken a leaf from Henry's book!), but the result of this was the appointment of a new board by their bankers, who appointed a new MD called Wilkes. He steered the company into success making cars for a niche market - middle class (British) urban buyers. This was so successful that the company grew very significantly as a military manufacturer during WW2.

After the war, faced with a government determined to remove classes in Britain (including their market) and post-war shortages, they found, more or less by accident, another niche market - light civilian four wheel drives, mainly selling to primary production, mining and exploration, and governments of all types. This expanded as cash strapped post-war military purchasers over much of the world turned to Landrovers as a cheaper, but 'good enough' substitute for specialised military vehicles.

The introduction of the Rangerover moved one of their Landrover products into their primary middle class market, by coincidence, at the same time as a merger with Leyland meant loss of control of the company. Ultimately, this led to the downgrading of the Rover name to the Austin/Morris mass market. At the same time, the niche Landrover and Rangerover were neglected by the new owners.

Following the sell off of Landrover/Rangerover from Leyland, the company, which was really the original Rover company, put their effort into the Rangerover, moving it further up market. Upmarket can be very profitable, but it is very unstable, and the history of the car industry is littered with the remains of companies that made only products near the top of the market.

With the company facing serious trouble with the ageing Defender and Rangerover (which had been steadily moving up market) both needing a lot of investment, they returned in the late eighties to the same market that had saved the company in the thirties - the middle class - with the Discovery. This was so successful that the company is now one of the most successful car manufacturers in the world. But this leaves the Defender with little development in the last twenty-five years, being manufactured by a company that sells all the rest of their products to the middle to upper class urban market.

And this market, that Rover had pretty much to themselves in the fifties, has been largely taken by the very large manufacturers who have been able to supply it with modified versions of their mass produced vehicles, taking much of the market, thanks mainly to their dealer network and the lower costs of mass production.

Unfortunately, this situation is still there - despite their success, Landrover is still a small manufacturer in global terms, and I have to wonder whether they will attempt to wrest this market back from the likes of Toyota, or simply merge the Defender label into their existing, successful, market.

John

The 70's were a long time ago John,except for the FL1 Land Rover have not put a foot wrong in decades,me thinks people are too busy hearing what they want to hear instead of whats actually happening. Pat

[ramblingboy42]

The Ranger is a VERY impressive vehicle. I read a recent comparison where it even knocked off the new HiLux.
Pickles.

I read a report recently where it got knocked off by more than the Ranger.

I have a 2.2 manual.... apart from the gearbox......it's just not smooth.... and if you hurry downchanges you could be anywhere....

Other than that , especially for it's price , it is quite impressive.

[Pickles2]

I read a report recently where it got knocked off by more than the Ranger.

I have a 2.2 manual.... apart from the gearbox......it's just not smooth.... and if you hurry downchanges you could be anywhere....

Other than that , especially for it's price , it is quite impressive.
My son in law was just given a 2.2auto twin cab version for his work car. he's really a big V8 man,....He's got an'87 Jeep Wagoneer with a 360 in it,...a great classic.
But He thinks the 2.2 Auto is ok,...easy to drive, does the job no worries.
But of course the vehicle that people seem to focus on is the 3.2 Auto,....a pretty strong engine apparently, which seems to be the major feature giving it an edge over the 2.8L Hilux, Amarok etc. I wouldn't be buying one, but the top of the range models seem to look quite smart.
He also LOVES our Defender, REALLY loves it, he now gets all my Landrover Magazines when I've finished with 'em, & He now loves Defenders,.......only problem is He's 6'8", not only that, He's a VERY big boy, and as a consequence,....,.......He can't fit behind the steering wheel!
Pickles.

[cripesamighty]

"He now loves Defenders,.......only problem is He's 6'8", not only that, He's a VERY big boy, and as a consequence,....,.......He can't fit behind the steering wheel!"

Me thinks he might need a bit more than mudrail seat extensions!

[Pickles2]

"He now loves Defenders,.......only problem is He's 6'8", not only that, He's a VERY big boy, and as a consequence,....,.......He can't fit behind the steering wheel!"

Me thinks he might need a bit more than mudrail seat extensions!
Lol,....You're absolutely right,...no hope at all, which IMHO, makes it all the more surprising that He's really into Defenders.....every time when we say we're coming round, the remark always is, "You'll be coming in Gracie"?!!
Pickles.

[frantic]

Good question. The 70 series, FJ Cruiser and Wrangler/Rubicon come to mind, but I think Land Rover will be aiming higher than that.



It isn't restrictions keeping cars like that out of Australia, it's the fact that GM/Ford/Chrysler aren't seeing a big enough market outside of the USA to produce them in RHD at the factory. As long as there's a third party involved doing the RHD conversions, they're always going to be hugely expensive.

The easiest to make a factory rhd would be the tundra by Toyota as it's just a cruiser with a lwb and leaf springs. The next two easiest would be the titan by Nissan as it's very similar to the new patrol and the ram as they could flog bits from the wrangler and grand Cherokee to suit. Gm and Ford are in a harder position as they stopped exporting anything that size with a similar drivetrain in rhd 15 years ago. Gm back then could have used the suburban front set up for its chev uses and Ford did use Brazilian made F250 in rhd but the dollar killed that.
But, and there is always a but;) if any one of them start to make factory rhd pickups and sell well here, it will be a rush for the others to.follow, which will make it interesting for the normal sized uses.

[cuppabillytea]

Good grief people. :eek: MrLandy's gunna flip when he reads this lot. :angel::wasntme:

[MrLandy]

Good grief people. :eek: MrLandy's gunna flip when he reads this lot. :angel::wasntme:

Nah...loving the fanboy banter 😎 Keep it coming future seers.

[cuppabillytea]

They are only looking at what they can see. You'll see. :p

[Andrew86]

Nah...loving the fanboy banter 😎 Keep it coming future seers.

I really need to put less effort into my posts.

[tact]

I really need to put less effort into my posts.

Yeah, yeah..... nah, don't do that. I like your posts.

[cuppabillytea]

Yeah, yeah..... nah, don't do that. I like your posts.
That's right Neil. Keep up the good work Andrew.

[MrLandy]

That's right Neil. Keep up the good work Andrew.

Yeah I like your posts too Andrew. Keep up the good work. Enjoying the considered debate.

But whatever you do, dont critique anything to do with Land Rover design. 😳👹🙃

[PAT303]

I really need to put less effort into my posts.

There's nothing wrong with passion. :D. Pat

[MrLandy]

I've been considering JDNSW's previous post, sage advice and history. Thanks John. Yes it's easy to forget how collective consciousness builds over time and also how circumstances affect outcomes across time as well.

"...despite their success, Landrover is still a small manufacturer in global terms, and I have to wonder whether they will attempt to wrest this market back from the likes of Toyota, or simply merge the Defender label into their existing, successful, market."

It's a testament to the design of 90/110/130 (and its predecessors) that it has survived, despite all of the circumstances that would have seen a lesser design fade into memory long ago. To me this illustrates what is so special about these vehicles, the visionary simplicity of the design.. and to me this plays a big part in explaining the unexplainable... that intangible feeling we all get when we drive them.

Of course a small vehicle manufacturer in trouble needs to take the route of developing vehicles that will sell en mass. And Land Rover have done an amazing job of reinventing the brand with Range Rover and Discovery and in the process saving the brand financially and also becoming arguably the leader in new market segments of high end ultra capable and tech advanced 4wheel drive vehicles. Who would have thought that the exclusive and expensive Range Rover would pave the way for such a massive expansion of city based large 4wd ownership... Etc.

I wonder though, if the same commitment were made to evolving the Defender earlier and not reducing customer service outside city centres... what its market share right across this country would be now?

In the meantime however, the market segment that Defender grew out of: the work oriented, no frills, ultra heavy duty vehicle became a neglected category (and not only by LR, also notably by Toyota and Nissan) ...this is why the lighter duty dualcabs have begun to fill that space to an extent (especially when 5 star ancap became mandatory on mine sites). The so-called 'dinosaur' vehicles of Defender and Tojo 70 series have not evolved to anywhere near the same extent. This, as JDNSW points out, is a legacy of financial necessity and manufacturers focussing on what was perceived as the main game - the mass recreational and burgeoning luxury markets. The New Nissan Patrol is a case in point too, it has really become a saloon and is no longer a serious 4WD.

So where to from here? Is the serious HD fullsize working 4WD really a dinosaur? or is there the potential to re-design for the future? ...Many here have the conviction that this is what the next Defender will be. I think it's entirely possible, but I'm yet to see the evidence. Statements from Land Rover about "competing with Hilux", "wheels being interchangeable with Hilux (what the!?)" and aiming for the "look of durability" are more weighted towards the outcome for the new Defender not being what I'd hope for.

Hence my (sometimes provocative banter I agree) approach to the discussion. ...someone's gotta keep the ******** honest B)

Cheers,

[tact]

"Statements from LR saying compete with hilux .... Wheels from hilux"

Settling on wheels with the same PCD as hilux means what? To me it doesn't mean the new defender will BE like a hilux in many more ways. Just solved the mass market problem for one potential accessory, more choices for rims and more chance to find spares in remote places.

Nothing but a good move. Happy if that extended to many other "commodity" parts.

What does "aiming to compete with hilux" mean? Must that mean lookalike? Must that mean perform like, and be built like hilux?

May I posit that competitors to hilux already include complete lookalike, built alike, perform alike models from a number of manufacturers. Other competitors already break that formula (Amarok, no transfer case etc).

I reckon LR can break further from the "hilux formula" and still be a "competitor". A competitor without being a clone.

[wally]

Waiting on official news on the new Defender.

101634

[MrLandy]

"A replacement model for the Defender was being developed to be launched in December 2016, said the manufacturer."

Land Rover Defender Solihull production line ends - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-35436741)

[Tote]

The article has been ammended so that the last line no longer has a date

Regards,
Tote

[MrLandy]

"Indecision delays the appearance of Land Rover's Defender replacement for at least three years"

"In the JLR backrooms, they know life would be easier without either the Defender or the need to provide a replacement. The trouble is, whenever you ask people what a Land Rover is, they point out, or sketch, their version of the off-road icon."

I'd hazard a guess, the problem is that none of the designers drive Defenders!

[cuppabillytea]

"Indecision delays the appearance of Land Rover's Defender replacement for at least three years"

"In the JLR backrooms, they know life would be easier without either the Defender or the need to provide a replacement. The trouble is, whenever you ask people what a Land Rover is, they point out, or sketch, their version of the off-road icon."

I'd hazard a guess, the problem is that none of the designers drive Defenders!
That's a good point Mr Landy, and its a worry. Designers these days are just that. They all go to the same schools and spew out the same dross in slightly different form, much the same as fashion designers.
The original design for the Land Rover was an Engineer,who saw a need and filled it.
Is there still a need for such a vehicle? Can a simple vehicle still be produced for a special purpose, whilst having to comply with all the Nanny State rules which have been put in place to prevent it from doing harm when not in it's designated environment?
Despite all these concerns, I am still confident they can and will. Because if they do, they will undoubtedly clean up. At least for that period if time it takes for their competitors to come up with a copy.

[Andrew86]

The original design for the Land Rover was an Engineer,who saw a need and filled it.

The needs of customers have changed though, and so too have expectations of comfort, refinement and versatility. People expect cars to be a lot of things now. Rugged enough to be a work horse, comfortable enough for long trips with the family, powerful and fuel efficient, reliable etc.

To design the new Defender to meet just one of those needs (as was the case with the original) just wouldn't work today. It'll need to do a lot of things well if they're going to reach their 70,000 units/year target.

I don't think versatility takes away from the purity of the Defender name, as long as it can still do the important things as well as the original.

[rar110]

The series 1 was popular as it met a need better than anything else on the market. Other makers responded and began making something similar, then innovated further and further to meet a broader need. Innovation in design was inevitable. LR did and still does some great innovating. The Defender design while a good vehicle was more antique than innovative compared to other offerings and didn't appeal to enough buyers to be viable.