2016 'Defender'

[MrLandy]

Not sure where to post this...perhaps it's a new category?
...'End of production' in the Defenders case also means a new model...

Speculation about new names etc are interesting, but the mystery deepens. Will it still be a Defender? Will it be worthy? Will it be plastic, soft, a poor copy? Or will it be absolutely awesome? And importantly, who is waiting?! Is anyone waiting for the new model 'defender' rather than securing the 'last' model?

No it's very unlikely to be the low tech reliable revelation we all dream of. And no it's unlikely to have the true character of a hand built Defender. But...what if it is the best 4wd vehicle ever made? Just a thought... The opportunity is certainly there with Toyota et al going all plastic and everyone else following and going all family dual cab... Vw pretending to make a rugged vehicle... Jeep winning high tech passenger car awards. ...Nissan capitulating to 'patrolling' shopping centre car parks.

We're sad to see the rivets go... But does anyone see the new? Just curious...

Mr Landy.

[Summiitt]

I'm just considering what to do after my 130 is likely to be written off, I have a few options.. Wait and see if a dual cab/ute is released in the new model
Get one of the last 130s available now or the way I'm leaning is to see if Mercedes can get me a G commercial ute on the back of one of the government orders.. I really hope that the new defender tries to take up the commercial market rather than the fashionable SUV market

[MrLandy]

Hey summit, yes that is a dilemma...the G wagon option sounds interesting...is a gov ute version less pricey than the 100K+ of standard model? Read an article online (sorry don't have link) about G wagons not being up to handling the Canning Stock Route! Hmm ...regardless, I'd be pretty tempted if I were you to get a new 130 now, it will hold its value, then you've got one in case the new version is not the real world commercial version we're hoping for...

[Loubrey]

Feeding the rumor mill...

The picture is of the vehicles used in the new Bond movie - SVR Rangie Sport, a prototype Jag (C-X75) and Defender with 37" tyres straight from the factory.

Now for the rumor bit... spot the absence of a diff and live axles on the Defender...?

Just a photo-shop glitch or something more sinister... :D

Cheers,

Lou

[Samblers]

I'm very intretested to see how LR can re-design/market the Defender for the 21st Century.

Original/current defender was a commercial/agricultural/working vehicle that had cross-appeal into the passenger market. Its off-road capabilities were to enable it to do work.

SUV's have a broad-based appeal - jack of all trades/ master of none.

It seems inevitable that LR will have to broaden the appeal of the New Defender but which crowd will end up compromised, left out, or dissapointed?

Commercial users? The military? The serious 4WD-ers? The overland expeditioners?

I hope it doesnt end up a soft-roader. But excited for the reveal ...

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The iconic Land Rover shape started in 1948, in 1957 it had a few design tweeks and in 1980 the radiator and grill moved forward. That basic shape has continued until today.

In 1991, 34 years after the design, the name "Defender" was introduced giving it a quarter century of use.

Why should the next basic, utilitarian, Land Rover model still be a Defender? :confused:

[Loubrey]

I agree, whatever "Project Icon" turns out to be it would almost certainly have a new name.

The Defender (or 90/110 predecessor) wasn't called a Series IV when it was launched and thus we have to assume the name "Defender" will only live on in history books after the end of this year.

Cheers,

Lou

[KarlB]

I'm just considering what to do after my 130 is likely to be written off, I have a few options.. Wait and see if a dual cab/ute is released in the new model
Get one of the last 130s available now or the way I'm leaning is to see if Mercedes can get me a G commercial ute on the back of one of the government orders.. I really hope that the new defender tries to take up the commercial market rather than the fashionable SUV market

Maybe you should consider an Iveco Daily 4x4. Only a little bit longer and wider than a Defender 130 but much greater load capacity. Should be more capable than a Defender in the rough stuff. Lots of info on the web including on the AuLRO Forum, but here are a couple of good place to get a quick overview: 4x4 Ute - TravelTrucks (http://www.traveltrucks.com.au/4x4-ute) and EVA Trade (http://www.expeditionvehiclesaustralia.com.au/index.php/eva-trade).

Cheers
KarlB
:)

[MrLandy]

Intriguing....whether it has a new name or not....it doesn't seem like many are waiting with bated breath for the new! It's definately a big call because unless there is a real design genius at Solihull, whatever its called, it will most likely become known as Tonka or Pretender. ...does anyone have any inside running on who is designing it? Any scoop beyond from UK beyond what we can google?

[ramblingboy42]

This has been questioned and talked about so much.

Official Land Rover status is....'no information about the defender replacement will be leaked to media until all design and engineering approvals are in place'.

They have been very good at this to date.

The only thing you hear is speculation from journalists trying to out do each other.

We will all know at the same time when Land Rover are ready to let us know.

[Pickles2]

This has been questioned and talked about so much.

Official Land Rover status is....'no information about the defender replacement will be leaked to media until all design and engineering approvals are in place'.

They have been very good at this to date.

The only thing you hear is speculation from journalists trying to out do each other.

We will all know at the same time when Land Rover are ready to let us know.
Hello Rambling, Guess what, I agree,......AGAIN!!
It would have to be one of the best kept secrets in the Auto Industry,..anywhere?
"Journos"?..Ain't that the truth?!
Pickles.

[CraigE]

Come on this is Land Rover. They will likely leak photos after it has been on the market for 6 months, Issue a press release about the forthcoming model 12 months after it has been on the market and announce its release 2 years later.



This has been questioned and talked about so much.

Official Land Rover status is....'no information about the defender replacement will be leaked to media until all design and engineering approvals are in place'.

They have been very good at this to date.

The only thing you hear is speculation from journalists trying to out do each other.

We will all know at the same time when Land Rover are ready to let us know.

[Loubrey]

Come on this is Land Rover. They will likely leak photos after it has been on the market for 6 months, Issue a press release about the forthcoming model 12 months after it has been on the market and announce its release 2 years later.

:D:D:D

Must admit they are a miles better corporation under Mr Cyrus Mystry (CEO Tata Group) than ever were under the many previous owners. Nice to have a parent company not interfere with the daily running of the business and allowing a guy like Ralf Speth (CEO JLR) to have goal and vision for the company.

I for one have faith in the direction they're currently taking and I sincerely hope they don't mess Project Icon up...

Cheers,

Lou

[Tombie]

About the time the new thing arrives I should be ready to step up to my next ride...
D5 or New "Icon"

[rar110]

Land Rover Series V and a Series V Sports could work.

[scarry]

:D:D:D

Must admit they are a miles better corporation under Mr Cyrus Mystry (CEO Tata Group) than ever were under the many previous owners. Nice to have a parent company not interfere with the daily running of the business and allowing a guy like Ralf Speth (CEO JLR) to have goal and vision for the company.

I for one have faith in the direction they're currently taking and I sincerely hope they don't mess Project Icon up...

Cheers,

Lou


When you think about it,they don't mess too many up,so i recon it will be pretty dam good.

[110 Pete]

Ive been told by an Un-nameable source that there will be a few models. There will be the "NEW" defender, new shape which will be based on a discovery monocoque base with a different body which will be partialy based on the discovery. It is said to be like a commercial version of the discovery.

Then there is apparently going to be another model which will be almost the same as the current shape. It will be classed as "Commercial", like the Landcruiser ute. Apparently there will only be one wheel base. It will apparently have a Jaguar V8 Diesel from the new Rangie matched with either a 6spd Manual and 8sp Auto. Im very keen to see what the engine/gearbox matchup is like in this "commercial Version.

Anyway, proof of the pudding will be in the eating!

Peter

[Tombie]

Whilst the look of whatever comes will surely be controversial I'm sure it will have the breadth capability we expect.

[digger]

<<<<snip>>>>

Then there is apparently going to be another model which will be almost the same as the current shape. It will be classed as "Commercial", like the Landcruiser ute. Apparently there will only be one wheel base. It will apparently have a Jaguar V8 Diesel from the new Rangie matched with either a 6spd Manual and 8sp Auto. Im very keen to see what the engine/gearbox matchup is like in this "commercial Version.

Anyway, proof of the pudding will be in the eating!

Peter


A commercial version of the defender...

thatd be a luxury model compared with the current one :)

[110 Pete]

A commercial version of the defender...

thatd be a luxury model compared with the current one :)
Well the 110 DC and 130 Defenders are a "Commercial" vehicle.. 😉 Land Rover still classes utilitarian styling as Commercial obviously haha!

[MrLandy]

Ive been told by an Un-nameable source that there will be a few models. There will be the "NEW" defender, new shape which will be based on a discovery monocoque base with a different body which will be partialy based on the discovery. It is said to be like a commercial version of the discovery.

Then there is apparently going to be another model which will be almost the same as the current shape. It will be classed as "Commercial", like the Landcruiser ute. Apparently there will only be one wheel base. It will apparently have a Jaguar V8 Diesel from the new Rangie matched with either a 6spd Manual and 8sp Auto. Im very keen to see what the engine/gearbox matchup is like in this "commercial Version.

Anyway, proof of the pudding will be in the eating!

Peter

Hey pete110 that's some pretty big revelations! Hope your source is true! V8 diesel sounds nice, but unaffordable... Let's hope it truly is commercial, because everything else other than landcruiser that claims to be commercial simply isn't. They're all family cars/dual cabs. Also jury is out for me on monocoque chassis for commercial vehicle. It would need to be heavier duty than disco. ...what a massive opportunity for Land Rover to take the lead over Toyota! With landcruiser being slowly phased out too.... How goid is your source Pete? ...Very intriguing. ...so who is going to wait now and not chase a 2015 defender??

[Loubrey]

Sounds great, but even my mates at the JLR R&D center and test track in Coventry (UK) know nothing about Project Icon. Apparently its frowned upon to even ask questions about it...

Maybe some true "inside" info, but these guys in Coventry new about the Discovery Sport some years ago, long before the suggested conception date.

While they won't tell me anything (they like their jobs too much), I have to believe they would at least tell me that they like the new car or not. At this stage they know nothing...

Project Icon is like the US military's "Skunk Works" from the 50's and 60's. JLR is keeping it so secret that in-house speculation is that its going to be so massive a leap forward that it aimed to not only knock the competition off its perch, but to land so far ahead of them that it will take years, if ever to catch up again.

Cheers,

Lou

[Pickles2]

As the saying goes, "I know nothing"!
But I wish I did, Pickles.

[Tombie]

As a general rule (guideline), vehicles coming out "next year" are in development around 5-7 years earlier...

[PAT303]

Hey pete110 that's some pretty big revelations! Hope your source is true! V8 diesel sounds nice, but unaffordable... Let's hope it truly is commercial, because everything else other than landcruiser that claims to be commercial simply isn't. They're all family cars/dual cabs. Also jury is out for me on monocoque chassis for commercial vehicle. It would need to be heavier duty than disco. ...what a massive opportunity for Land Rover to take the lead over Toyota! With landcruiser being slowly phased out too.... How goid is your source Pete? ...Very intriguing. ...so who is going to wait now and not chase a 2015 defender??

Won't be a V8,my guess will be a range of engines to suit different markets,monocoque is a big leap over separate chassis/body,much stronger/rigid with less wieght,the reason aircraft/F1 cars etc use them.The new Defender will be a world beater IMHO,Land Rover are not restrained by using old bodies like the present model,it's based on the T5 floor pan which is as modern as you can get and you don't hear D4 owners whinging about it regarding cabin space or layout,off road ability or on road performance,the only people that whinge are the same people who whinge about P38 diff's or 19'' rims,it wouldn't matter what Land Rover did they would still find something to bitch about,I personally can't wait.. Pat

[scarry]

Won't be a V8,my guess will be a range of engines to suit different markets,monocoque is a big leap over separate chassis/body,much stronger/rigid with less wieght,the reason aircraft/F1 cars etc use them.The new Defender will be a world beater IMHO,Land Rover are not restrained by using old bodies like the present model,it's based on the T5 floor pan which is as modern as you can get and you don't hear D4 owners whinging about it regarding cabin space or layout,off road ability or on road performance,the only people that whinge are the same people who whinge about P38 diff's or 19'' rims,it wouldn't matter what Land Rover did they would still find something to bitch about,I personally can't wait.. Pat

Agree, no chance of a V8,modern diesels are getting smaller,not bigger.
A modern high tech V8 would also be way to expensive.

The tojo V8 is relatively low tech,10 to 15yrs behind LR's current crop of diesels.

There would be reason to winge if it was shod with 19's?:o:D

Lets hope a base model family wagon is slotted in somewhere in the line up as well.

[PAT303]

A simple 5 seater,like the Telecom specials with the 2.7 TDV6 up to a spec like the current limited edition models with the 3.0ltre in both manual and auto starting around $50,000 and up to $70,000 with all the fruit with 1,000kg load and 3500kg tow rating would be an over night sales success,it would force Toyota's hand regarding both the 200 and Prado. Pat

[pibby]

Whats Toyota market penetration compared to defender overseas?

Wouldn't the base/commercial model disco already fill the role of the new defender? (Not talking utes)

[Tombie]

Whats Toyota market penetration compared to defender overseas?


ISIL seem to like them...

[Avion8]

Well I'm not happy with LR as a 61 year old 107 has real problems getting 700x16 tyres, they just don't plan far enough ahead in my opinion;)

[MrLandy]

Won't be a V8,my guess will be a range of engines to suit different markets,monocoque is a big leap over separate chassis/body,much stronger/rigid with less wieght,the reason aircraft/F1 cars etc use them.The new Defender will be a world beater IMHO,Land Rover are not restrained by using old bodies like the present model,it's based on the T5 floor pan which is as modern as you can get and you don't hear D4 owners whinging about it regarding cabin space or layout,off road ability or on road performance,the only people that whinge are the same people who whinge about P38 diff's or 19'' rims,it wouldn't matter what Land Rover did they would still find something to bitch about,I personally can't wait.. Pat

Nicely put Pat, agreed it could be fantastic. Take your point in monocoque strength. But I'm not convinced yet that it will knock Toyota off its perch... We already have Discovery, but despite winning best 4x4 9 times in a row, it's still not making that big an inroad into 200/Prado. 'Project icon' would surely be going up against landcruiser, which would make it primarily a heavy duty commercial vehicle. I would be disappointed if it wasn't.

[PAT303]

The Jeep has already given the Prado a kidney punch,people are waking up to it's dated design,with the LC the base spec model with the comfort pack was the ride of choice for the grey nomads,nice and simple with less wieght made them good van pullers,Icon with better suspension,more power and torque,better gearbox,even less wieght and much better interior layout would I feel steal the market,it would really hurt the dual cab segment. Pat

[rangietragic]

No matter how good it might be,without a bloody toyota badge on it sales will be slow.We all know toyota could put a badge on a turd and people would buy it,Oh thats right,been done,the fj cruiser and the rukus:D

[Tombie]

Don't need market dominance to be excellent.
That's capitalist thinking...

Just quality & capable product manufactured in a quantity the company desires to make.
As long as the punters purchase all you make, and you're making some cash to develop future models...

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Well I'm not happy with LR as a 61 year old 107 has real problems getting 700x16 tyres, they just don't plan far enough ahead in my opinion;)Exactly what were they thinking!

Good thing that the Rover Co Ltd was merged with Alvis and then with Leyland Motor Corporation and then British Leyland, and then de-merged to BMW and de-merged again and sold to Ford and merged with Jaguar and Aston Martin to form PAG until Aston Martin was sold to some venture capitalists and the remaining Jaguar land Rover sold off to the Tata's.

Why didn't Rajan Tata forsee the need for 7.00 16 bias ply tyres to keep 61 year old Land Rovers going?

[PAT303]

Don't need market dominance to be excellent.
That's capitalist thinking...

Just quality & capable product manufactured in a quantity the company desires to make.
As long as the punters purchase all you make, and you're making some cash to develop future models...

The reason I'm so kurt with the knockers of the Freelander and Evoque,those two vehicles being the volume sellers have helped put LR in a position to be able to afford to develop project Icon. Pat

[debruiser]

The reason I'm so kurt with the knockers of the Freelander and Evoque,those two vehicles being the volume sellers have helped put LR in a position to be able to afford to develop project Icon. Pat

Agreed, the Evoque is a nice piece of kit.

[DeanoH]

I don't think Pat really said that he thought they (Freelander/Evoque) were " a nice piece of kit ".


........................................ those two vehicles being the volume sellers have helped put LR in a position to be able to afford to develop project Icon. Pat

I still haven't figured out why LR kept the FL name after totally discrediting it with the FL1 and as for the Evoque IMO up there with the Tribeca and Ssangyong Musso as a contender for the ugliest 4WD ever built. :D

But hey, whatever rows your boat and if sales of the (arguably) ugliest 4WD ever built provide the funds to develop the 'new' Defender well so be it.

Deano :)

[debruiser]

I don't think Pat really said that he thought they (Freelander/Evoque) were " a nice piece of kit ".



I still haven't figured out why LR kept the FL name after totally discrediting it with the FL1 and as for the Evoque IMO up there with the Tribeca and Ssangyong Musso as a contender for the ugliest 4WD ever built. :D

But hey, whatever rows your boat and if sales of the (arguably) ugliest 4WD ever built provide the funds to develop the 'new' Defender well so be it.

Deano :)

That's taste now isn't it :P

I still like my defender best :)

I wasn't disagreeing with you, I agree that it's good that htey are still working on the defender replacement.

[rijidij]

I like the look of this. According to an online magazine it's supposed to be close to the production shape, but who knows ? how would they know ? unless they have a mole in Land Rover. I'm sure the actual design is a closely kept secret, but personally I'd be happy if it looked like this. I'll be sorry to see the traditional shape go, but it had to happen one day.

I'd like to see the back view too as I'm sure it wont have the exposed rear chassis like the current Defender which makes it so easy to bolt things to (For example, a Rijidij dual wheel carrier ;) :D )
It will be a challenge to design accessories for, but it's also exiting looking at it.

Cheers, Murray

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/388.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/Landys/2016-Defender_zps4c5affca.jpg.html)


I'd be very disappointed if it looked like this, for some reason it reminds me of an International Scout from the 60's :D ..................

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/389.jpg (http://s204.photobucket.com/user/rijidij/media/Landys/2017-Defender_zpsb28fc6e8.jpg.html)

[scarry]

That top pic looks fantastic:)

[YOLO110]

That top pic looks fantastic:)

Agree... its a pretty good shout at keeping the evolution DNA going... :)

[scarry]

Agree... its a pretty good shout at keeping the evolution DNA going... :)

Seems to have the modern 'family' look,but some old looks as well.

Looks like a Tojo killer:o:D:D

[PAT303]

It has to pass pedestrian laws so the bottom ones out,the top one I'd buy no problem. Pat

[debruiser]

you know I really dont mind the bottom boxy looking one... please don't remove me from the forum!!!! :p:p

[Pocket Rocket]

I can't say I like either of them. Really glad I got my 90 before it was too late.

[LouisW]

I can't say I like either of them. Really glad I got my 90 before it was too late.

I sooooo agree, they look like those retro Toyota things!

[MrLandy]

I sooooo agree, they look like those retro Toyota things!

Yes LouisW! That's my fear too...that they will go all nostalgic and retro and plastic! They will look like cartoon characters to me. Poor replicas. They'll only win me over if the design is no frills and exceedingly robust. I'm not interested in something that challenges Prado or Hilux. I'm interested in the unique not the generic.

[loneranger]

I sooooo agree, they look like those retro Toyota things!

It looks like they borrowed the lego set Toyota used to design the FJ cruiser.

[LouisW]

I was driving from Newport (in the loan car -Def 90) to my LRJ Dealer (16km one way) and on route I passed 9 x Jeep Wranglers - a car if find very ugly and the four door version even more so. On my return trip I stopped counting when I passed the 5th. I was very disappointed that i did not see one Landy/Def on the round trip to wave at.

What on earth do people see in a JeepW or why do they choose them in such dispropotion to defenders. There must be something in it i.e. The reason commercial TV attracts more viewers with content like "Keeping up with the KarTRASHians" vs documentaries on SBS.

I tried to research the sales units of the Jeep Wrangler vs the Defender. - can't find anything; who can help?


Now for the concerning part, just suppose LRJ is after the PJ Cruiser and Jeep Wrangler market. Then I expect the new Defender will be exactly what we fear.

However when I put on my commercial Cap, LRJ executives are there to deliver financial results for their investors not the Landy loving community.

BTW. My dealer once again volunteer the following information: " There are all sorts of people suddenly showing interest and buying new defenders now that it is evident that production will end in 2015.

[Loubrey]

Louis,

I don't think LRJ will ever do combat in the Jeep and similar class vehicles market share. LRJ has always aimed at the premium and specialist vehicle markets and that is certainly not the space Jeep and their compatriots play in.

Direct comparison in terms of specification and available features would put the Grand Cherokee in competition with the Range Rover Sport - a completely laughable thought and concept and similarly so for the Cherokee Sport and Range Rover Evoque.

I've had the opportunity to switch between my 90 and a short wheel base Wrangler a couple times on one day and the Wrangler a truly awful car to drive. Its had about $12,000 spent on it for suspension and wheels and its still a mile off matching a stock 90.

I have a lot of faith that Land Rover will stay true to their target market and business plan without "selling out" to compete in an inferior market space.

Cheers,

Lou

[LouisW]

Louis,

I don't think LRJ will ever do combat in the Jeep and similar class vehicles market share. LRJ has always aimed at the premium and specialist vehicle markets and that is certainly not the space Jeep and their compatriots play in.

Direct comparison in terms of specification and available features would put the Grand Cherokee in competition with the Range Rover Sport - a completely laughable thought and concept and similarly so for the Cherokee Sport and Range Rover Evoque.

I've had the opportunity to switch between my 90 and a short wheel base Wrangler a couple times on one day and the Wrangler a truly awful car to drive. Its had about $12,000 spent on it for suspension and wheels and its still a mile off matching a stock 90.

I have a lot of faith that Land Rover will stay true to their target market and business plan without "selling out" to compete in an inferior market space.

Cheers,

Lou

Lou, I am sure you right as I have no basis to contradict you nor am I as well informed - however I am still quite baffled as to why the Jeep Wrangler is so Popular - I understand taste differ but look at the thing surly it can't out sell the defender at a ratio of 6:1 ??? And they more expensive, what am I missing ??

BTW this is not a attempt to Jeep bash, I am really inquisitive.

[LouisW]

Lou, I am sure you right as I have no basis to contradict you nor am I as well informed - however I am still quite baffled as to why the Jeep Wrangler is so Popular - I understand taste differ but look at the thing surly it can't out sell the defender at a ratio of 6:1 ??? And they more expensive, what am I missing ??

BTW this is not a attempt to Jeep bash, I am really inquisitive.

I searched carsales 127 defenders for sale and 864 Jeep Wranglers - ratio of 6.8 to 1, so my indicative count on a 30km round trip was quite accurate :)

[DeanoH]

you know I really dont mind the bottom boxy looking one... please don't remove me from the forum!!!! :p:p

Don't worry you're not on your own. :D

I reckon the top one looks like an Ewok/RRS front spliced to a Mini or Toyota Rektum or whatever rear and is just plain boring, nothing special.

The bottom one has a clear strong side shape similar to a D2 but 'toughened up', look better as a five door. The rear window infill is a bit forgettable as is the dinky little triangle light in the headlight assembly. The slab sided bonnet needs 'softening' and the front needs to be more pedestrian friendly but overall it actually looks like an updated Defender.

Deano :)

[Loubrey]

I searched carsales 127 defenders for sale and 864 Jeep Wranglers - ratio of 6.8 to 1, so my indicative count on a 30km round trip was quite accurate :)

Just a lot more "check book" sportsman on your side of the world. :D Image conscious wannabees who want to look tough without any of the compromises. Hence a ridiculously thirsty 6 cylinder petrol and a very nasty clunky American autobox. All the gear, but no idea..

Over here in the west the Grand Cherokee outsells everything else and they are as common as lawn on the roads. Again, novated leasers wanting to drive a full size SUV, have the image without compromising on soft road comfort or price.

You can't really compare Defender sales with Jeep sales because Land Rover would in any case never be able to build them at the rate Jeeps sell. However, have a look at depreciation on a Wrangler compared to a Defender and it will tell a different story.

Cheers,

Lou

[LouisW]

Just a lot more "check book" sportsman on your side of the world. :D Image conscious wannabees who want to look tough without any of the compromises. Hence a ridiculously thirsty 6 cylinder petrol and a very nasty clunky American autobox. All the gear, but no idea..

Over here in the west the Grand Cherokee outsells everything else and they are as common as lawn on the roads. Again, novated leasers wanting to drive a full size SUV, have the image without compromising on soft road comfort or price.

You can't really compare Defender sales with Jeep sales because Land Rover would in any case never be able to build them at the rate Jeeps sell. However, have a look at depreciation on a Wrangler compared to a Defender and it will tell a different story.

Cheers,


Lou

So let me summerise W*&^kers that follow the crowd - makes sense to me - coupled with the unfounded and missguided concept that Landy's keep breaking down .

Many couch engeneers have told me the Range Rover Sport will fall apart in 2 years :) yet they claim VW are exceptionally reliable, obviously don't read the news papers, and base their argument on rumours.

[cjc_td5]

Lou, I am sure you right as I have no basis to contradict you nor am I as well informed - however I am still quite baffled as to why the Jeep Wrangler is so Popular - I understand taste differ but look at the thing surly it can't out sell the defender at a ratio of 6:1 ??? And they more expensive, what am I missing ??

BTW this is not a attempt to Jeep bash, I am really inquisitive.

A good reason is that in my major regional area, servicing a population of around 100,000, there is a Jeep dealer here (and Toyota, Nissan etc etc) but I have to drive 190km to find my nearest LR dealer.:mad:

[MrLandy]

A good reason is that in my major regional area, servicing a population of around 100,000, there is a Jeep dealer here (and Toyota, Nissan etc etc) but I have to drive 190km to find my nearest LR dealer.:mad:

Absolutely cjc, the combination of what is really a pathetic dealer/service centre coverage for such a massive continent and the perception that Landy's break down is never going to give the general public any confidence... but you know what, they can have their cushy wallowing ugly jeeps!

...because as we all know what this actually means is that there's lots of room for excellent independent land rover service centres to thrive - who are masterly, more knowledgeable, offer a much better and more personal approach and are usually less expensive.

Although having lived many years in northern Australia with a Defender...there is a huge issue concerning the lack of Land Rover service options. ...and this is my biggest concern and the reason I'm skeptical about the next Defender/icon being a serious heavy duty commercial vehicle - LR are not serious about providing customer support in most of the regions we really use these vehicles.

- I so hope I'm wrong and that the next Defender blows Landcruiser away...

[loneranger]

What on earth do people see in a JeepW or why do they choose them in such dispropotion to defenders. There must be something in it i.e. The reason commercial TV attracts more viewers with content like "Keeping up with the KarTRASHians" vs documentaries on SBS.


I'd start with price for Wranglers. Just had a look the 2 door is under $40,000 driveaway. Personally I don't mind the look but I've never driven one and would never buy one.

The other reason is marketing. When was the last time you saw Land Rover advertising the Defender. I can't recall ever seeing a Defender add on TV. Even when they advertise their end of calendar year, financial year sales the Defender is never advertised. Whereas you'll see the Wrangler advertised all the time and its also used in ads for other companies generally with 4 young people in it, the top down and water in the back ground with the sun shining.

[tcf]

I had a Jeep JKU CRD. It was built just as poorly as my Defender 110 Puma. The Jeep was equally, if not more readily modifiable.

To me, the moral of story is each to their own.

I do prefer my Defender, however. And progress is mostly a good thing and of which all good things must come to an end. Which likely will make all of our Defenders a classic. Something the Jeep JK will not ever become IMO. I dare say the 2016+ 'Defender' will also not ever be anything like the classic Defender/Series vehicles we know today.

[Leyland1980]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/02/298.jpg

not sure if any of the eagle eyed among you can theorise any more about the axles suspension and chassis that Bond is using now he has been kind enough to show us the under carriage.

[MrLandy]

For anyone who hasn't seen Solmaniac's 1 year review of his G Wagon, it's excellent... http://www.aulro.com/afvb/european-manufactured/170914-done-something-crazy-4.html#post2089693

I read it with interest in context with this discussion about what the next 'Defender' could be... Obviously the price makes it comparable to a Range Rover, but as most here would know the seating position, overall design and capability make it more comparable to a Defender... but if LR are going all out on the new 'icon', surely the G Wagon is potentially the marker, especially as MB have won so many military contracts with it... and also interesting regarding Solmaniac's review of MB service vs LR service!

Solmaniac..."Will I go back to Land Rover? Well that depends on what the new Defender ends up being and whether LRA stop behaving like a bunch of ****** and learn how to effectively service their customers instead of treating them like an inconvenience. They could learn a lot from MB Australia-Pacific."

[MrLandy]

...oops! sincere apologies Solmanic!...for inadvertently calling you Solmaniac!...two typos!
Mr Landy

[Summiitt]

I hope the new defender is very different mechanically to the old one..I very nearly bought a landcruiser this week, but I knew from experience that I would need to upgrade the suspension straight away to handle the loads I carry. As it turns out my 2013 130 has a market value of $46k.. So it looks like I will be getting a chassis swap rather than a write off, suits me as I can sit and wait for the new defender and see if it's going to be fit for purpose.. I hope they keep a commercial, agricultural market in mind..

[MrLandy]

Hey hope that's good news Summiitt? Not sure what happened but sounds like it must be a pain. I've been tempted by landcruisers in the past, but I drove them for work up north for years and I always come back to the supportive seating position, the ride and handling and outright ability of the Defender. Not to mention fuel economy and character... All the best

[MrLandy]

Hey Summitt, I just found your 'broke my defender' thread... Geez glad you came out if it unscathed!! Very interesting that you could drive away.

It's great that they can transfer vehicle to a new chassis. Hope that's good news for you. ... Insurance wouldn't write it off and give you a new one?

...I guess insurance replacement could become a problem for anyone who has an accident, with end of production looming and no news about the new model! Something I hadn't thought of... Reckon this will make me extra careful.

Cheers all.

[MrLandy]

Hey all, I've just been reading some more about Discovery Sport. It sounds pretty extraordinary. But more so in terms of its market placement. If the LR engineers are this smart with the redesign of 'icon' they will know that market placement has everything to do with the new 90/110/130 replacement. The market is crying out for a real-deal heavy duty 4wd that fills the gap between road comfort and epic durability. If they take it down the Hilux/Amarok route they are doomed to light duty genericism. But if they embrace the fact that most large continents in the world remain majority unsealed roads...and have designed with this in mind, they will blow everything else out of the water. Toyota is clearly waiting to see what LR produce before revealing anything of new landcruiser, but resting on its hilux laurels. Maybe the character of Defender will be missing, but perhaps a new character will emerge. Discovery Sport already fills the space of generality, though not dual cab and this is the danger zone for 'icon'. ...to shrink to the mainstream over-crowded mass market, or to stand tall as the heavy duty leader. ...large dual cab AND large wagon? HD not urban. Hmm lets hope.

...to rove is not to follow.

MrLandy

[PAT303]

Icon will be the Defenders replacement,not a Hilux's. Pat

[MrLandy]

Icon will be the Defenders replacement,not a Hilux's. Pat

Hope so Pat!

[PAT303]

Have faith,Land Rover have been making all the right noises about Icon and they learnt from the Freo1 experience in how much a bad vehicle can cost the company. Pat

[Pickles2]

What about a new Defender like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fc7V7YPSwyg

Should be watched full screen with some good sound!
Pickles.

[MrLandy]

What about a new Defender like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fc7V7YPSwyg

Should be watched full screen with some good sound!
Pickles.

Incredible Pickles! thanks for the post. The potential is definitely there! ...if they can bring it in under $70,000!! Gee, thinking about it, that makes a new Defender for $50,000 right now look even more amazing!

[Nick S]

Looks like it has portal axels under there, wonder what the price is?

[PAT303]

So you want that as the new defender?,so you will all start wearing tight shorts with mesh singlets after you've bought one,make sure your neck chokers don't color clash with the lime green paintwork. Pat

[Pickles2]

So you want that as the new defender?,so you will all start wearing tight shorts with mesh singlets after you've bought one,make sure your neck chokers don't color clash with the lime green paintwork. Pat

?
Pickles.

[MrLandy]

So you want that as the new defender?,so you will all start wearing tight shorts with mesh singlets after you've bought one,make sure your neck chokers don't color clash with the lime green paintwork. Pat

He he, thanks Pat. I'm starting to see we can all rely on you for your excellent dry insights. For the record, I hate the colour and the fat wheels / arches are ridiculous unless you're at the north pole.

[KarlB]

This will give you a little more info: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Du2Ck1TqdEo

Cheers
KarlB
:)

[PAT303]

He he, thanks Pat. I'm starting to see we can all rely on you for your excellent dry insights. For the record, I hate the colour and the fat wheels / arches are ridiculous unless you're at the north pole.

Mate,I want a defender,not some try hard ''bad ass thing'' that will have people wiggling their little finger at me. Pat

[loneranger]

It looks like they mated a Defender with a Wrangler then stole the wheels off a pimped Hummer. :o

What it does do is give hope that the new Defender will meet current safety standards whilst still looking like a Defender even if it has to grow a little to accommodate all those airbags etc.

[MrLandy]

Mate,I want a defender,not some try hard ''bad ass thing'' that will have people wiggling their little finger at me. Pat

I'm with you there mate. It's more the potential that the new 'Defender' will still be a heavy duty unit. ...I've seen plenty of pimped try hard bad ass looking Defenders in my time too!! They don't do anything for me either. It's the classic simplicity of the design icon all the way.

[MrLandy]

...intriguing, no one has yet said they're definitively waiting for the next 'defender'. There's obviously much trepidation, as expected I guess...we live in uncertain times indeed... loving my puma by the way, there's nothing lthat comes close! no trepidation here for a few years to come...

[Tombie]

...intriguing, no one has yet said they're definitively waiting for the next 'defender'. There's obviously much trepidation, as expected I guess...we live in uncertain times indeed... loving my puma by the way, there's nothing lthat comes close! no trepidation here for a few years to come...


Because some of us aren't "waiting"

When it's released I will likely be buying one...

In the mean-time will live with the D4 and MY15 90...

[MrLandy]

Nice call Tombie, best of all worlds!

[YOLO110]

I am pretty certain the 'new' Defender will be something pretty special!

JLR are a highly successful company with a long and rich heritage, backed fully with deep pockets, people and R and D. I don't believe they will let us down with a below par replacement!

Pretty exciting really... but very glad I now have an 'original'!!!

:>)

[loneranger]

I am pretty certain the 'new' Defender will be something pretty special!

JLR are a highly successful company with a long and rich heritage, backed fully with deep pockets, people and R and D. I don't believe they will let us down with a below par replacement!

Pretty exciting really... but very glad I now have an 'original'!!!

:>)

I agree. I think the new Defender will be a very capable vehicle. I'm not sure how much different it will look or how much I will like but I'm not anticipating being in the market for a long time anyway. Although I will be going to look at them when they are released to see what they're like.

[LouisW]

I have no idea the credibility of these photos, but you may find it intresting

[LouisW]

I have no idea the credibility of these photos, but you may find it intresting

Personally I don't like them the 4 door look like the Toyota PJ cruiser

[Loubrey]

I have no idea the credibility of these photos, but you may find it intresting

Louis,

I would hazard a guess at 0% credibility.

Those are clearly just scale overlays of various Land Rover models. The red one still shows the orange of the Range Rover Sport and the green one has a 90's rear cross member and what looks like a Wrangler's roll bar.

Ugly monstrosities like those will just make the actual official reveal so much more special!

Cheers,

Lou

[EastFreo]

Depending on the final look and drive I might be able to convince my wife to swap her Volvo XC60 for a new Defender. She is already on the page for the new discovery and on the weekend even said we could consider the new defender.

[MrLandy]

Depending on the final look and drive I might be able to convince my wife to swap her Volvo XC60 for a new Defender. She is already on the page for the new discovery and on the weekend even said we could consider the new defender.

When a Defender becomes a Volvo! it is the end of the world. Go for the disco sportivo.

[MrLandy]

I am pretty certain the 'new' Defender will be something pretty special!

JLR are a highly successful company with a long and rich heritage, backed fully with deep pockets, people and R and D. I don't believe they will let us down with a below par replacement!

Pretty exciting really... but very glad I now have an 'original'!!!

:>)

....Hope you're right YOLO110, but I'm with you...very glad I have an 'original'!!!

Lots of interesting posts running on this... Intriguing... surely someone out there will break some news on 'the new icon' soon!

Respect to JLR for secrecy during roll out of Heritage models too! It's brilliant.

[Tombie]

But you don't have an 'original' :)
The public was up in arms when they changed from series to Defender, from leaf to coil, to lights in the guards not inboard.

Everything must evolve. Just as our uses, needs and wants evolve.

This new L662 will be a very capable machine - where capable is breadth of capability, not one particular aspect of a vehicles use.

Having said that - we enjoy our 90 :)

[MrLandy]

But you don't have an 'original' :)
The public was up in arms when they changed from series to Defender, from leaf to coil, to lights in the guards not inboard.

Everything must evolve. Just as our uses, needs and wants evolve.

This new L662 will be a very capable machine - where capable is breadth of capability, not one particular aspect of a vehicles use.

Having said that - we enjoy our 90 :)

Ha ha! true Tombie 😊, we're actually on the look out for a series Landy.. .needless to say would love one of each!!

[MrLandy]

If Pat's right:
See: http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/216672-any-news-new-defender-5.html
And new Defender has been pushed out to 2018, it would be why no news has come out. ...But all the press til now has said they've signed off on the new design. Maybe they've been listening and gone back to the drawing board?

[Tombie]

This thread is like watching commercial TV news...

No facts, no data, no info...

Yet it goes on and on:angel:

[kogvos]

This thread is like watching commercial TV news...

No facts, no data, no info...

Yet it goes on and on:angel:
And yet we keep watching...

[PAT303]

This thread is like watching commercial TV news...

No facts, no data, no info...

Yet it goes on and on:angel:

I could tell you,but then I'd have to kill you :twisted:. Pat

[Loubrey]

So it looks like the thread can be relabeled 2018 Defender...

Still mostly drip feeds, but Land Rover USA released a press statement that the Defender will return to US shores in 2019, a year after release in the UK.

Forget the pictures of the DC100 in the article, but if those specifications are anywhere near accurate it sounds to be all good news! Live axles and SDV6 engines... :D

Land Rover Defender to Make US Return in 2019 ? AutoGuide.com News (http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2015/03/land-rover-defender-to-make-us-return-in-2019.html)

Cheers,

Lou

[MrLandy]

Well if it's going to be 2018, they've either gone back to the drawing board to get it right, or stuff it up completely. ....Or this journo is just making stuff up.

"Arriving in time for the Defender's 70th anniversary in 2018, the British automaker will recreate its legendary SUV for the first time since 1948."
...IT'S BEEN RECREATED MANY TIMES SINCE 1948 ... AND DEFENDER IS NOT AN SUV, but it sure sounds like it's going to be!...BE VERY WORRIED...

"the Land Rover Defender range will become a go-anywhere luxury model with tough styling" ...ISN'T THAT WHAT DISCO AND RANGE ROVER ARE ALREADY!

" that will be offered in at least five body types" IT ALREADY IS

"The company is also supposedly moving its most off-road focused model to common wheel and tire sizes to make finding replacement products simpler worldwide." ...I WOULD HAVE THOUGHT 16inch rims were pretty common already. Talk about saying nothing!!

Live axles are good news, but in a world that still thinks horse and cart leaf springs are a good idea, it's not all that revelatory.

I don't have any faith in this journo. ...although 2018 does seem likely given there really is no credible info out there. ...I'd definitely be grabbing a late model DEFENDER right now if I hadn't already!

[stewie110]

Hey summit, yes that is a dilemma...the G wagon option sounds interesting...is a gov ute version less pricey than the 100K+ of standard model? Read an article online (sorry don't have link) about G wagons not being up to handling the Canning Stock Route! Hmm ...regardless, I'd be pretty tempted if I were you to get a new 130 now, it will hold its value, then you've got one in case the new version is not the real world commercial version we're hoping for...

I have a mate who has a grey market imported 2007/8 G320 G wagon. He's done all of the famous "car killer" tracks around Australia including the Canning. The only variation from stock that he has made is fitting the "professional spec" suspension parts. From what he tells me they are the same SKU as the military models have internationally (he's not sure if the Australian versions have the same part).

Going on tracks with him the big differences are
* seems much smaller inside (he seems to pack similar volumes of gear and have less space free for kids etc)
* much much quieter on the road
* has similar axle articulation but with the lockers makes it much more capable factory spec to factory spec.
* much more power
* better engine braking on steep hills in low range (more control i suspect from the bigger capacity engine).

The defender on the other hand (I currently have a 2001 td5) has
* more after market accessories and cheaper parts.
* more space
* less tosser factor (he gets many people slagging him off)
* looks better (imho)

One other point I forgot to mention in my previous (pre-edit) post was that I asked the Local Mercedes commercial dealership if they had any plans on having the professional series imported to Australia (the true direct comparison to the defender) and they went back to head office, came back to me and said not at this time... However they have said they would.. then back tracked several times since the army decided to use them.

[Summiitt]

I've tried 3 mercedes dealerships regarding buying a new G professional and none of them have got back to me.. My 130 is going to get a brand new chassis under it so I'm no longer looking at options.. But if it's 2018 for the replacement defender, I reckon an F350 will be in my driveway before then..

[MrLandy]

Hmm yes, it doesn't leave many options does it Summiitt... Dualcab landcruiser (will be phased out too) or F350. Both very thirsty! ...You wouldn't just keep your repaired 130? Maybe the 2018 Defender will be worth the wait and til then you've got the best anyway. ...Interested to hear your thinking on why you'd go to F350...?

There really is a huge gap in the market for a heavy duty no frills vehicle isn't there.
I assume you need the tray, but if you were seriously looking at a G professional, would a D4 with HD suspension work? Or not HD enough?

Can't see myself ever being able to afford a G wagen. I doubt they'll corner the market anyway with such high prices. I really don't understand why all the majors have dropped the ball on developing an updated no frills heavy duty 4x4. It's like they think everyone has moved to the city and no one needs a working vehicle anymore. Very strange I reckon.

[PAT303]

The only downside to the F trucks is size,they are a very good machine that have the same situation as Land Rovers,they generally only stop for crank angle sensors or fuel regulators and if you buy direct from the US the parts are very cheap and very easy to get,they use less fuel than the Tojo V8 and don't have any of it's problems,a much better vehicle. Pat

[JDNSW]

I really don't understand why all the majors have dropped the ball on developing an updated no frills heavy duty 4x4. It's like they think everyone has moved to the city and no one needs a working vehicle anymore. Very strange I reckon.

I think it may be a bit more than that. Over the last couple of decades, rules round the world for cars have been designed primarily to make them city friendly - emissions, fuel consumption, safety features, especially pedestrian safety. While initially these were not applied to 'working vehicles', they are being applied ever more stringently to these as well, partly because in many markets, at least partly as a reaction to the changes in design, more and more people have been changing to 'working vehicles' to fill the place of an ordinary car (but they don't want the no frills version!).

Add to this the increasing urbanisation round the world, including, and perhaps especially in this country, and the market for this type of vehicle is shrinking as the difficulty in designing them increases. So it is hardly surprising that the number of options is shrinking.

John

[Landybitz]

Theres no doubt that its little sad the good old defender is nearing its end date.

But Land Rover are there to make money, and the Defender is an old design that needs to move with the times.

If Land Rover have any brains they will market the new one ( if theres one ) to the huge none land rover market/owners, most current owns will winge about how modern it looks et etc etc, but thats not a market land rover want to be in.

They already have a iconic brand with a great history so this is a perfect platform to attract new buyers to a modern defender.

If would also make sense to also have a base version, as not every one will want a $100000+ Defender.

Theres even talk all the jigs will be sent to India, cheap labour there and it can then be exported back to the UK, and other place and everyones still happy.

[DiscoMick]

Interesting story in the latest 4 x 4 Australia about utes bending their chassis. Some of the pics were taken during our Simpson crossing late last year so I saw it first-hand. I can say without a doubt they were grossly overloaded, particularly behind the rear axle. This makes the point that most modern utes, except the 130, are just not up to carrying heavy loads over severe corrugations. Will the next Defender be able to do that?

[AndyG]

Well if they were overloaded, that's driver abuse not the vehicle.
I imagine you can break any vehicle with enough weight and a bad enough road.

Q. Do manufacturers normally reduce the GVM for off road? Thinking back vaguely to the army inters. Or is that an Army thing?

[JDNSW]

Well if they were overloaded, that's driver abuse not the vehicle.
I imagine you can break any vehicle with enough weight and a bad enough road.

Q. Do manufacturers normally reduce the GVM for off road? Thinking back vaguely to the army inters. Or is that an Army thing?

As far as I know, most vehicle manufacturers do not even mention off road. However, Landrover may be an exception -

From Series 2a Owners Manual, maximum approved payload for basic 109; Driver, two passengers and 908kg on normal "roads" and "cross-country" 816kg.

However, my 110 owners manual does not make the distinction, merely using the weasel words "other ratings may be appropriate to particular operating conditions, usage requirements and specification variations"

Part of the problem, however, is that most often damage is not caused by off road, but by driving at high speed on bad roads (something Australians are historically renowned for).

John

[frantic]

Well if they were overloaded, that's driver abuse not the vehicle.
I imagine you can break any vehicle with enough weight and a bad enough road.

Q. Do manufacturers normally reduce the GVM for off road? Thinking back vaguely to the army inters. Or is that an Army thing?

Yup, landrover.
Your/ My defender have a recommended tow limit of 1ton offroad. 3.5 on.:D

[Summiitt]

Defenders have no change in their GVM for off road work.. That's the primary reason I run the 130s, I can run them at or close to their GVM straight out of the show room, with no upgrades, new suspension or other mods..and, they hold up to it very well, typically I can get 6-8yrs before looking at new suspension.
Whatever the replacement for the defenders, I hope LR keep the chassis engineering at the top of the list..
GVM has nothing to do with towing..that's GCM..

[DiscoMick]

Yep, it can also be where the load is placed. I saw a Mazda BT Dual cab ute in Alice with a heap of weight behind the rear axle. Saw the same ute in Birdsville and there was a much wider gap between the top of the cabin and the canopy because the chassis had bent. All that weight behind the rear axle had flexed the chassis rails over the corrugations until they bent. If the weight had been further forward he might have been OK. Mind you, a Triton carrying a fair weight further forward chopped out its suspension bushes, broke a Sax leaf spring and had a crack in the side of the ute body from the weight of the canopy bouncing. Too much weight is the enemy. Reckon many people would be surprised at how much weight they are actually carrying on a trip.

[PAT303]

The trouble is the Asian manufacturers are fitting bigger cabs with bigger motors to chassis designed 20 years ago,back then the motors were NA boat anchors that nobody towed with because they had no power,now they have plenty of power with larger cabs so the trays have to move back to the point that they have half the tray overhanging the tow bar,add up the leverage onto the chassis above the rear axle and snap. Pat

[Tombie]

Interesting story in the latest 4 x 4 Australia about utes bending their chassis. Some of the pics were taken during our Simpson crossing late last year so I saw it first-hand. I can say without a doubt they were grossly overloaded, particularly behind the rear axle. This makes the point that most modern utes, except the 130, are just not up to carrying heavy loads over severe corrugations. Will the next Defender be able to do that?

Just to balance this...

I have seen a couple of damaged 130 chassis from heavy loads and offroad work. I have also seen a defender 130 that had started to bow from its load on a trip.

IIRC, A few members here have reported a few chassis cracks...

Anything will stress under certain conditions, and most of the punters will never put their vehicles through those conditions... But everything has its limit.

This is becoming a bigger problem nowadays, as people buy endless gadgets and other junk for travel. Overloading a vehicle way beyond what is necessary for their journey.
Most do not need all the items they take, and never use much of it, but it all contributes to mechanical stress & fuel consumption.

[AndyG]

The trouble is the Asian manufacturers are fitting bigger cabs with bigger motors to chassis designed 20 years ago,back then the motors were NA boat anchors that nobody towed with because they had no power,now they have plenty of power with larger cabs so the trays have to move back to the point that they have half the tray overhanging the tow bar,add up the leverage onto the chassis above the rear axle and snap. Pat

No one can accuse LR of overpowering the Defender Chassis :p in its current rendition

[loneranger]

The trouble is the Asian manufacturers are fitting bigger cabs with bigger motors to chassis designed 20 years ago,back then the motors were NA boat anchors that nobody towed with because they had no power,now they have plenty of power with larger cabs so the trays have to move back to the point that they have half the tray overhanging the tow bar,add up the leverage onto the chassis above the rear axle and snap. Pat

When the current shape Triton was released there were a lot of complaints the tray was too small so Mitsubishi solved it by lengthening the tray. I don't think there were any other changes so basically all the extra length was behind the rear wheels and moved the tow bar further from the rear wheels. See a lot of them driving around the metro area looking like the gap between the canopy and the rear cab is bigger at the top than the bottom. :angel:

[DiscoMick]

When the current shape Triton was released there were a lot of complaints the tray was too small so Mitsubishi solved it by lengthening the tray. I don't think there were any other changes so basically all the extra length was behind the rear wheels and moved the tow bar further from the rear wheels. See a lot of them driving around the metro area looking like the gap between the canopy and the rear cab is bigger at the top than the bottom. :angel:


I heard there is a strengthening kit available from Mitsubishi, but I haven't seen it myself.
All I know is my BIL is disgusted with the weakness of his Triton, which he says is made from soft drink cans, and has bought an old 80 series as a project car, pending getting rid of the Triton. I told him he should have gotten a Defender instead, but he has read too many stories in 4WD Action about how the 80 series is 'the best car ever made', so the propaganda got him.

[MrLandy]

Defenders have no change in their GVM for off road work.. That's the primary reason I run the 130s, I can run them at or close to their GVM straight out of the show room, with no upgrades, new suspension or other mods..and, they hold up to it very well, typically I can get 6-8yrs before looking at new suspension.
Whatever the replacement for the defenders, I hope LR keep the chassis engineering at the top of the list..
GVM has nothing to do with towing..that's GCM..

Exactly Summiitt. No other comparable vehicle has the chassis strength of Defender. If they go to aluminium chassis or monocoque, Defender is finished as a working vehicle. It might yet be something else great, but it's very unlikely it will ever be as heavy duty again.

Ps: interesting to hear you get six years with no mods. ...I blew my original shocks on just one trip up the strezlecki. Only one mod I'd recommend for a stock Defender - Koni Raids.

[Tombie]

A lot of people like Koni...

I removed the set on one of my previous vehicles and dropped them in the bin!!! (Serious)

[AndyG]

Wouldn't that be an interesting 4wd comparo, off the showroom floor, loaded to GVM, no support vehicle, shortest route Sydney Alice

[PAT303]

Exactly Summiitt. No other comparable vehicle has the chassis strength of Defender. If they go to aluminium chassis or monocoque, Defender is finished as a working vehicle. It might yet be something else great, but it's very unlikely it will ever be as heavy duty again.

Ps: interesting to hear you get six years with no mods. ...I blew my original shocks on just one trip up the strezlecki. Only one mod I'd recommend for a stock Defender - Koni Raids.

Mine have done almost every track in WA and are going strong,the only thing I replaced was the bottom bushes on the rear,an alloy monocoque defender will be lighter and stronger than one made from steel with bolted on alloy body. Pat

[PAT303]

Wouldn't that be an interesting 4wd comparo, off the showroom floor, loaded to GVM, no support vehicle, shortest route Sydney Alice

That will never happen for the simple reason Toyota will not want the "King off the Road" V8 landlooser beaten by a 4 cylinder defender. Pat

[DiscoMick]

Its interesting in the 'bent utes' report in the latest 4 x 4 Australia there are two pictures of the latest Landcruiser dual cab v8 utes with bent chassis and one of the experts interviewed says he has seen a number of them bent. No mention of any bent Defender.

[cripesamighty]

They do mention Land Rovers in the April '15 4x4 Australia, but only in the editors blurb at the front of the magazine though.

"It's interesting to note that the only 4x4 manufacturer we could find that reduces the towing capacity of its vehicles for off-road use is Land Rover. And before all the Land Rover jokers have their say, you have to think the conservative Brits know a thing or two about making their 4x4s last many years."

I was at my mechanics today getting the clutch changed on the work Hilux and he mentioned this article. Then he went on about a few vehicles they have had through the workshop with a bent chassis through overloading on bad roads; Triton's, GU Patrol's, Land Cruiser utes, Hilux's, D40 Navara's, etc, but no Land Rovers so far, although they do service a lot of them.

[steane]

I had an ML Triton before getting the Defender and it was a great vehicle. The Triton has copped a lot of bad press and it's got more to do with half-wit owners than the vehicle itself IMO.

Take any DC ute, sell it to a not so bright spark that adds airbags to the rear suspension, then a dual wheel carrier, then overloads it, then drives at silly speeds over bad roads and you end up with a bent chassis. They bend where the airbags place load on a section of the chassis not designed for that load.

I have yet to see evidence of a bent Triton that didn't have airbags. If anyone has and has the pics to prove it I'd love to see them (have some Triton driving mates to stir up...).

There might be a towing capacity sales war going on but the reality is, and sensible people should know this, that very few of the DC utes are real HD commercial vehicles. Many are closer to being cars than any sort of truck. Just because the book says they can tow 3.5 tonne doesn't mean you should and to be frank it would be pretty damn dangerous IMO.

Use them sensibly and they are great things. They have introduced a lot of people to 4WDing and offer a level of practicality that is hard to beat. They drive like cars, have real 4WD (and are extremely capable), can carry a modest load and can even tow!

They shouldn't be confused with a 'HD Truck' though.

[PAT303]

Sorry mate but don't blame people if they are deceived,people retire after spending their life behind a desk and buy a vehicle that suits their needs,it's only after they purchase one that they realise it can't do what the salesman said it would,if toyonissanmitsu built the vehicle properly in the first place there wouldn't be a need to fit airbags-helper springs-GVM upgrades. Pat

[MrLandy]

...any recent reports on a greater lack of Defender stock given the new 'icon' looks like it's now way over the distant future horizon? How many are compromising and opting for something else new before then?

[Pickles2]

I'm surprised that I don't see any shortage of new stock or ramping of pricing.
Only thing is, some variants are no longer available.
S/H pricing is not moving either.
The above suggests to me why Defender as we know it is finishing,.....there is just not the demand.
Pickles.

[PAT303]

You might say there is no demand but around my area,50k's south of Perth there is huge numbers of them,mostly late model TDCi's,the main Perth dealer has no stock except a second hand 5 door,the Rockingham Toyota dealer had two that lasted days in a yard full of 76 and 79 series. Pat

[loneranger]

We drove past Freo Harbour on Saturday night and counted about 10 90's and 110's sitting there. There were 2 Montelcino Red 90's amongst them.

[loneranger]

I'm surprised that I don't see any shortage of new stock or ramping of pricing.
Only thing is, some variants are no longer available.
S/H pricing is not moving either.
The above suggests to me why Defender as we know it is finishing,.....there is just not the demand.
Pickles.

Our Dealer reckons he can sell everyone he can get his hands on especially black ones.

[Didge]

Workmate priced a new 90 the other day - $54K !! seems a bit hefty to me and yet they're driving out the door faster than they can be supplied

[MrLandy]

...quick scan of carsales, only 32 x 2014/15 defenders in the country, mostly 90's and mostly around $55,000. Looks like a shortage of 110's to me and 90 prices are up there. Demand has never been higher I'd say.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Its interesting in the 'bent utes' report in the latest 4 x 4 Australia there are two pictures of the latest Landcruiser dual cab v8 utes with bent chassis and one of the experts interviewed says he has seen a number of them bent. No mention of any bent Defender.So Defender 130 chassis cracking is not an issue then?

Just because a mag doesn't report it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. The problems with the 130 are well reported and IMHO directly related to the nature of the single point loading of coil springs and the cantilever effect on the rear body mounts vs the tripple point loading of leaf springs on most of the other brand offerings.

I must say however the excessive overhang of many traybacks on the Japanese dualcab offerings would be a significant cause of rear chassis failures.

[DiscoMick]

So Defender 130 chassis cracking is not an issue then?

Just because a mag doesn't report it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. The problems with the 130 are well reported and IMHO directly related to the nature of the single point loading of coil springs and the cantilever effect on the rear body mounts vs the tripple point loading of leaf springs on most of the other brand offerings.

I must say however the excessive overhang of many traybacks on the Japanese dualcab offerings would be a significant cause of rear chassis failures.

Not mentioned because its not a common thing to see a bent Defender, I assume. Certainly possible.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Not mentioned because its not a common thing to see a bent Defender, I assume. Certainly possible.
Not sure what is the definition of "common thing" but a quick search on this site reveals:
http://www.aulro.com/~/143894-cracked-chassis-defender-130-2010-puma.html (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/143894-cracked-chassis-defender-130-2010-puma.html)
http://www.aulro.com/~/105195-130-chassis-cracking-issue-any-prevention-method.html (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/105195-130-chassis-cracking-issue-any-prevention-method.html)
http://www.aulro.com/~/45267-130-chassis-cracks.html (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/45267-130-chassis-cracks.html)
http://www.aulro.com/~/128950-chassis-cracking-failures-130s.html (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/128950-chassis-cracking-failures-130s.html)
http://www.aulro.com/~/192491-130-chassis-hairline-fractures.html (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/192491-130-chassis-hairline-fractures.html)
http://www.aulro.com/~/40662-defender-130-chassis-strength.html (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/40662-defender-130-chassis-strength.html)
http://www.aulro.com/~/101277-defender-chassis-welding.html (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/101277-defender-chassis-welding.html)
http://www.aulro.com/~/157103-tray-mounts-2-print.html (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/157103-tray-mounts-2-print.html)
http://www.aulro.com/~/22942-130-crew-cab-defender.html (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/22942-130-crew-cab-defender.html)And that is only the first three pages of 10 pages of results.

[TwoUp]

So how is this side topic relating to 2016 Defender then?


I continue watching this thread for any news on subject (being 2016 Defender).


Regards,
Peter

[MrLandy]

So how is this side topic relating to 2016 Defender then?


I continue watching this thread for any news on subject (being 2016 Defender).


Regards,
Peter

Hi Peter,

Me too! but clearly no one has the insider news. ...It's the vacuum created by the much anticipated 2016 Defender morphing into the speculative 2018 Defender, which may not ever exist, like everything else in the future... Get a 2014/15 Defender while you can I reckon! The 2018+ Defender will be a Hilux copy like every other new vehicle on the horizon. If you're waiting for a faurdinkum new Defender don't hold your breath, get a dusk cab ute which will break a chassis ...and if you get a 130 beef up the tray mounts, but the chassis will probably ok.
Apologies for the cynicism, but it is Friday night and my confidence in Land Rover to build a serious heavy duty working vehicle is dwindling.
Happy weekend!!
Cheers, MrLandy

[MrLandy]

...actually I just noticed you've already got a 98 110, a 2.2 130 and a puma 110!! Is that correct ? ...So you're set!
Cheers mate, doesn't get any better, other than a fully restored series 1!!

[pando]

I guess the thing is if you like the current defender and don't want to see it change, you can have that as you can get one now from the last few years and with the spare parts back up keep it on the road for the foreseeable future. Given the enthusiast back ground of the defender I'd be surprised if the current crop of land rover parts vendors don't keep supporting us with parts for years to come.

Additionally I think there would be a market for licensed CKD style kit car (defender in a box) once the new one is released for low volume enthusiast at home builds for those that are really serious and want a new one but that's for another thread I guess.

As far as the 201X replacement goes, personally IF (that's a pretty big if) the speculation online turns out to be correct then I'm keen to give it serious consideration irrespective of what it looks like. 9 speed auto, low range transfer case (surmising this might be manual only), solid axles, lockers, various body configs, alloy architecture (light but hopefully robust), small capacity diesel (good on juice but hopefully peppy) then on paper it'll suit us just fine for what I would use it for.

To the OP, no, I'm not considering a current new one for what I want it for so yes, I'm waiting to see what comes out of the oven first.

Just want them to get on with it now, been long enough.

[MrLandy]

Interesting Pando...I like your confidence. Does this speculative pic of 2018 Defender convince you? Apart from the dinky RAV4 spare wheel cover, it might all be ok... Hmm...but then if it has a shiny plastic fake chrome terrain selector knob and thinks it can drive itself, in place of an HD transfer case and manual driver mode...ouch! Hmm... I'd still be snapping up a 2015!

[stewie110]

As of mid-last year they (solihull) only had a faint idea of what was going to happen to the market space of the current defender.

The suggestion in an interview (which I can not seem to find right now on google) was that Land Rover was going to have three marques. Range Rover (existing), Discovery, and Defender. With each of the three having different tiers.
Range rover evoque, range rover sport, range rover.
Discovery sport, Discovery 4 replacement and a more basic version of the disco to suit the "current defender market".
Defender -> Replace the freelander brand having a small SUV with various options.. less work-man type... more hipster.

Nearly a year on I have not seen any other detail discussed and follow "land rover" as a news key-word on Google. Most of the new information has been speculative with "press renders" etc. Now the news feeds are suggesting that they are actually going to keep the current defender, however start to manufacture it in India.

The good news for Land Rover is that they are selliing more defenders than they have ever before thanks to the uncertainty of the product line. The bad news for traditionalists is that Land Rover may no longer make something that is as tough as the current defender.

[DiscoMick]

We know they've built a new engine plant for the Ingenuim series which starts at 2.0 litres and can be larger.
We know they have a super sophisticated robot manufacturing plant.
We know they have adopted the key word 'durable' to describe the new Defender.
We know they have the existing platforms which can be used under the new Defender.
We know there's talk of continuing to make the existing Defender in India.
We know they've said they want to knock off the Hilux with a range of vehicles.
That all sounds good to me.

[stewie110]

We know they've built a new engine plant for the Ingenuim series which starts at 2.0 litres and can be larger.
We know they have a super sophisticated robot manufacturing plant.
We know they have adopted the key word 'durable' to describe the new Defender.
We know they have the existing platforms which can be used under the new Defender.
We know there's talk of continuing to make the existing Defender in India.
We know they've said they want to knock off the Hilux with a range of vehicles.
That all sounds good to me.

Keen to know about the Hilux references :)

[Tombie]

I would have that in a heartbeat.

[MrLandy]

Keen to know about the Hilux references :)

Indeed. ...intriguing, I would have thought most of us here would think Defender has already knocked the hilux off its perch as well as the landcruiser, but if what you're saying DiscoMick is that the 20XX Defender is aiming to knock off the hilux in more ways than one, ie: imitate like all the other dual cab light duty keep up with the joneses suburban family wagon utes attempting to do so, such as amarok, bt50, ranger, triton and navara, I would be very worried. Freelander, evoque and discovery already target the mainstream. Perhaps an evoque dual cab ute might fit the bill, but please, any reference to knocking off hilux is only meaningful if Defender doesn't capitulate to imitation. Maybe 2015 is actually the end of the serious HD work 4WD? There seems to be no news on s replacement for the antiquated Toyota 70 series either.

I've just been looking through Jock the Rock's inspiring creation in 'show us your deefers' - the 110 Defender Isuzu turbo hybrid. Looking like the way to go in future, always been my thinking for my battle scarred 98 ...super HD motor and gearbox, same fuel economy as new Defender. Hmm... If the new Defender is not equally robust it will be difficult to find an Isuzu diesel in the coming years I reckon, if not already.

It must be s tough gig for the LR engineers! No wonder it's been pushed back to 20XX! But I really hope the rhetoric about new Defender 'parts being interchangeable with hilux' which is all over the web is a misquote!

[Pickles2]

All pure speculation, except for maybe the Ingenium engines.
This is "The World's Best Kept Secret", and NO-ONE, really knows anything of any substance, apart from a few of the "Inner Sanctum", at JLR U.K., and I suppose the question could be asked, "Do They"?....But I'm being cyncal here, because I think they would!
Pickles.

[MrLandy]

Hey Pickles, yup all speculation based on tidbits of spurious information. :)

[PAT303]

There's no news on the Land Cruiser replacement because there isn't going to be one.Toyota like Land Rover are retiring their old platforms because they can't meet todays standards without a major redesign,if your going that far you may as well start over,Land Rover with a ''new'' defender,Toyota with the Hilux. Pat

[PAT303]

Indeed. ...intriguing, I would have thought most of us here would think Defender has already knocked the hilux off its perch as well as the landcruiser, but if what you're saying DiscoMick is that the 20XX Defender is aiming to knock off the hilux in more ways than one, ie: imitate like all the other dual cab light duty keep up with the joneses suburban family wagon utes attempting to do so, such as amarok, bt50, ranger, triton and navara, I would be very worried. Freelander, evoque and discovery already target the mainstream. Perhaps an evoque dual cab ute might fit the bill, but please, any reference to knocking off hilux is only meaningful if Defender doesn't capitulate to imitation. Maybe 2015 is actually the end of the serious HD work 4WD? There seems to be no news on s replacement for the antiquated Toyota 70 series either.

I've just been looking through Jock the Rock's inspiring creation in 'show us your deefers' - the 110 Defender Isuzu turbo hybrid. Looking like the way to go in future, always been my thinking for my battle scarred 98 ...super HD motor and gearbox, same fuel economy as new Defender. Hmm... If the new Defender is not equally robust it will be difficult to find an Isuzu diesel in the coming years I reckon, if not already.

It must be s tough gig for the LR engineers! No wonder it's been pushed back to 20XX! But I really hope the rhetoric about new Defender 'parts being interchangeable with hilux' which is all over the web is a misquote!

I find it funny how people need super duper defenders to travel in the outback on tracks cut through virgin bush by the likes of Len Beadell in standard series ones:confused:. Pat

[MrLandy]

...so...no one thinks there's a market anymore for a re-designed heavy duty working 4WD?

[MrLandy]

I find it funny how people need super duper defenders to travel in the outback on tracks cut through virgin bush by the likes of Len Beadell in standard series ones:confused:. Pat

...or just a falcon wagon.

[Summiitt]

Land Rover Just need to look at the F series utes, good payload, great towing and car like interiors. The f trucks sold well in Australia back 10 or so years ago, just offer different size and specs and they will sell.

[pando]

...so...no one thinks there's a market anymore for a re-designed heavy duty working 4WD?

who's to say the new defender wont be?[bigwhistle]

[PAT303]

...so...no one thinks there's a market anymore for a re-designed heavy duty working 4WD?

Yes,thats why LR are designing a new defender instead of making do with a lesser ''unbreakable'' vehicle.As I've posted before LR went back to the drawing board with the new defender to fill this gap,the reason it has been pushed back to 2018. Pat

[PAT303]

Land Rover Just need to look at the F series utes, good payload, great towing and car like interiors. The f trucks sold well in Australia back 10 or so years ago, just offer different size and specs and they will sell.

I own two defenders because they do what I want them to do,I'd never buy an F series because it can't do what I want them to do,different market. Pat

[MrLandy]

Yes,thats why LR are designing a new defender instead of making do with a lesser ''unbreakable'' vehicle.As I've posted before LR went back to the drawing board with the new defender to fill this gap,the reason it has been pushed back to 2018. Pat

I hope you're right Pat. But your earlier post, why do people need super Defenders to travel the outback? may be more on the mainstream money I'm afraid. ...Most don't.

Most want the 'look' of being 'outback' ready, of being able to go 'into the nature' (see my post in introductions) but they will never really go there. We live in a boutique nation now and the 'outback' no longer exists. In a global village there is no outback anyway.

Perhaps a 20XX defender is actually a non-sequitur in a global capitalist world, but a truly durable vehicle for those of us who actually live and travel the 90% of this continent that is outside the cities is necessary and a lesser 'unbreakable' vehicle will just break. (My 98 defender outlasted all my mates Toyotas in northern WA by far!) But as a minority member I'm just not holding my breath.

[PAT303]

Don't ask me,we had a few regular posters who always gave advice about outback travel and how standard LR's couldn't do it,one poster had never actually traveled west when I asked him directly.IMHO going off just how good LR have done with the rest of the range I have no reason to believe the new defender,remember LR was going to build it on the D3-4 T5 platform but changed their mind,why would they do that?,because they want live axles instead of indy suspension pushing it back to 2018?,is not going to be a class act. Pat

[MrLandy]

My advice is that there is nothing better than a Defender for inland / northern Australia travel in terms of durability, capability, fuel economy, and to me, comfort. The only potential issue is servicing / breakdown support if not covered by LR assist or one is self-reliant mechanically. RAC Ultimate is good back up.

In my opinion the national LACK of LR service support, particularly in central and northern Australia is the biggest factor reducing consumer confidence in Land Rover in northern Australia. This will need to be addressed in a big way if LR are indeed serious about the next Defender and it's potential to fill the massive gap that will be left by Landcruiser in the north and centre. LR's attitude towards this critical factor never ceases to amaze me. It will be the biggest factor IMHO as to the success of the next Defender if indeed it is a serious Heavy Duty vehicle.

[Orkney 90]

.....

Most want the 'look' of being 'outback' ready, of being able to go 'into the nature' (see my post in introductions) but they will never really go there. We live in a boutique nation now and the 'outback' no longer exists. In a global village there is no outback anyway.


Wait... What?

Perhaps I am misinterpreting what you're trying to say here, but it seems to me that you are implying that people should only buy a Defender if they genuinely mean to go "outback"?

I purchased my Defender because I love the damn things, I like the looks, the relative simplicity, the history and many other factors. Going hard-core four-wheel-driving was NOT one of them. The fact that I have a vehicle that can go almost anywhere is a bonus, but not the main reason I purchased.

Having said this, I am not one of the caf?-latte sipping crowd that just purchased my Defender to "show-off". My parents live on acreage and getting to them involves some dirt roads and mild (except in flood) river crossings. My Citroens were able to do it, my Defender does it quicker and easier.

In my humble opinion there is nothing wrong with buying a vehicle just because you like it. I have restored old buses in the past, but have never stopped to pick up passengers with them...

Yes, I don't have huge sized tyres, or a winch, or a roof top tent. Or rock sliders, or any of the other stuff. But I don't begrudge anyone that does. If that is what you enjoy, hell - you only live once!

Okay, rant over. The underside of my bonnet has some rainwater drops that need cleaning off...

[MrLandy]

Hey Orkney90, no not at all! ...But I can see how what I said could be interpreted that way, so Apols for that. ...it was in the context of speculation about whether the next defender model would up to the task, no criticism whatsoever of any current Defender owner...we all know they're up to the task!

Ps: I'm not into big wheels or rock sliders either and I applaud you for loving the design classic, as I do.

Best wishes.

[Orkney 90]

Thank you for the clarification MrLandy. Of course, it all makes sense now... the "new" Defender... What ever it will be, I am happy that I have the "old" model. Again, each to their own. However, no matter how capable the new model will be, some if not most purists will not like it.

I just hope that there is scope somewhere in the world (India perhaps?) to continue building the current Defender in its present form for many years to come.

[AndyG]

What is Toyota's plan for the 70 series and a replacement. They have lost the mine segment due to ANCAP etc.
Surely this is the segment the Defender should be expanded into, not the relatively soft Hilux car like segment.

[MrLandy]

What is Toyota's plan for the 70 series and a replacement. They have lost the mine segment due to ANCAP etc.
Surely this is the segment the Defender should be expanded into, not the relatively soft Hilux car like segment.

Hey AndyG. Yes. See above.

[Landybitz]

Thank you for the clarification MrLandy. Of course, it all makes sense now... the "new" Defender... What ever it will be, I am happy that I have the "old" model. Again, each to their own. However, no matter how capable the new model will be, some if not most purists will not like it.

I just hope that there is scope somewhere in the world (India perhaps?) to continue building the current Defender in its present form for many years to come.

Insiders at Land Rover have even said the Defender will still be manufactured outside of the UK, and then sold as a commercial vehicle back to Europe and RTW. ( thats not a official LR Statement )

Most of the Purists will probably hate the new Defender and I am sure thats what Land Rover are hoping for, it will then sell in its millions, more so to those who drive Jepp's, Toyota's etc selling on its iconic brand for the next generation of land rover owners to enjoy, and they might make money selling it. Just don't make it look too crappy and you will have a winner.

[Pickles2]

Land Rover have even said the Defender will still be manufactured outside of the UK, and then sold as a commercal vehicle back to Europe and RTW.

Most of the Purists will probably hate the new Defender and I am sure thats what Land Rover are hoping for, it will then sell in its millions, more so to those who drive Jepp's, Toyota's etc selling on its iconic brand for the next generation of land rover owners to enjoy, and they might make money selling it. Just don't make it look too crappy and you will have a winner.
Nope, JLR have said no such thing.
Enthusiasts are "hoping" that Defender will be built elsewhere, but JLR have made no such "committment". They have of course said they are "thinking/considering" etc etc, but there has been absolutely nothing "official" whatsoever from JLR.
Like you, I LOVE the current Defender, wouldn't mind a bigger more powerful engine, but it is what it is & I'm happy with that!
I don't know that I'm gonna be unhappy with the new one, 'cause I know nothing at all about what it will be like. However, knowing me, & how I like "traditional" stuff, maybe I'll say, something like, jeez, I wouldn't mind that stuff (drivetrain) in my (current ('13)) Defender?
The "New" Defeender is "The World's best kept secret", so who knows what it's gonna be, apart from a few boffins in the inner sanctum of JLR?
And there is another aspect, IMHO, to this whole "scenario". Obviously Defender's whole "being" is largely responsible for the Landrover/JLR "brand" that we know today. But whilst in the "old days" when the Landrover/Defender whatever was the major product, it simply ain't any more. Landrover have so many products, so many developments, so much demand, & maybe much more demand than for Defender type vehicles, maybe, just maybe, they aren't going to "push" this category as much as they used to, when there is seemingly an unlimited demand for stuff like Evoque, Discovery Sport, Range Rover SVR etc etc. I just don't know how much JLR are relying upon Defender to fit into the "New Age". No criticism to anybody or anything, I just don't know.
Pickles.

[Landi]

No new Disco or Defender until 2018 - motoring.com.au (http://m.motoring.com.au/news/2015/large-4x4/land-rover/defender/no-new-disco-or-defender-until-2018-50815)

2018! Maybe this thread needs re-naming. Here's an interesting quote as well:
"If the Defender had have changed through a natural cycle, every 10 years, through 60 years, what would it be like today? That's the answer you're looking for, that's what we need to create," said McGovern."

[Landybitz]

If you have seen Land Rovers presentation the new Defender is definitely part of there future plans. What ever form it may be in.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/05/422.jpg (http://s856.photobucket.com/user/juddyburton/media/Landybitz/Screen%20Shot%202015-05-22%20at%2010.33.49%20am_zpsutb320p1.png.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/05/423.jpg (http://s856.photobucket.com/user/juddyburton/media/Landybitz/Screen%20Shot%202015-05-22%20at%2010.33.56%20am_zps6hwlv01u.png.html)

[Pickles2]

Yes Landy, I've seen that,......and I'm just as excited, (and impatient), as you, and everyone else I guess, to know what it all means!
Pickles.

[MrLandy]

[QUOTE=Landybitz;2365227]If you have seen Land Rovers presentation the new Defender is definitely part of there future plans. What ever form it may be in.

Yes, but VERY worrying...'luxury', 'leisure' and 'dual purpose' BUT NO 'WORK' category. Which means no heavy duty category. Hmmm.

Broadly I see it as: Range Rover = luxury; Discovery = leisure and Defender = work / defence. If Defrnder is to become 'dual purpose - luxury leisure' it is the end of Defender.

[MrLandy]

...the luxury / leasure category is already so over catered to its getting ridiculous. Even the army is forced to buy luxury vehicles (Mercedes) for its fleet, at least doubling the 4X4 defence budget! What is going on?! The gap in the market for a serious heavy duty vehicle is massive. Boutique nation here we come!

[LouisW]

Wait... What?

Perhaps I am misinterpreting what you're trying to say here, but it seems to me that you are implying that people should only buy a Defender if they genuinely mean to go "outback"?

I purchased my Defender because I love the damn things, I like the looks, the relative simplicity, the history and many other factors. Going hard-core four-wheel-driving was NOT one of them. The fact that I have a vehicle that can go almost anywhere is a bonus, but not the main reason I purchased.

Having said this, I am not one of the caf?-latte sipping crowd that just purchased my Defender to "show-off". My parents live on acreage and getting to them involves some dirt roads and mild (except in flood) river crossings. My Citroens were able to do it, my Defender does it quicker and easier.

In my humble opinion there is nothing wrong with buying a vehicle just because you like it. I have restored old buses in the past, but have never stopped to pick up passengers with them...

Yes, I don't have huge sized tyres, or a winch, or a roof top tent. Or rock sliders, or any of the other stuff. But I don't begrudge anyone that does. If that is what you enjoy, hell - you only live once!

Okay, rant over. The underside of my bonnet has some rainwater drops that need cleaning off...

I am a "Latte Pretender" owner with a tricked up Pretender - but guys look at it this way, if middle aged "Latte Sipping" white collar ****** keep buying Defenders, LRJ may just decided to make the new Defender very traditional to keep feeding the Pretender market as we will out buy you traditonalist 2 to 1 :)

"ever heard of Panerai "hand-wound" watches with plastic cover not glass - well you have to wind the thing up every 2-3 days but like the defender us ******* like them :D

[PAT303]

Pickles,the ute/pick up-offroad-purist market is just as big or bigger than the Luxury market,Land Rover aren't silly,they know the Defender could go off the scale sales wise in Oz,Africa and in North America,the NA market on it's own could account for 25% of total production on it's own,the towing market is crying out for a basic tow vehicle in the $50,000 price range,a Defender with the 2.7TDV6 or single turbo 3.0ltre with auto,bucket seats,A/C with 5 seats and large rear cargo area like the present model but with a full width rear door would wipe the dual cab market out,not needing GVM upgrades,suspension changes,chips,exhaust,better seating and no chassis cracks would steal those buyers away.LR at the moment is smoking sales wise,the reason is inovation,they are giving the market in each segment just what it wants with clever modern idea's,the RR models are a case in point and when the all alloy D5 arrives watch that sucker take off,LR aren't going to fall over at the last hurdle with the Defender. Pat

[Pickles2]

Yep, realize all that, as I'm sure L.R. do.
Truth is, there's a lot of vehicles competing for, and already in, this market, some dramatically cheaper than what the Defender probably will be (although of course I don't know pricing). Some people just will not pay for quality, there's many reasons for that,...they don't need it, they don't know what "quality" is, & if they can get something that will do the job for them cheaper, then they will buy it,...and then buy another when it wears out, because they can get another NEW one cheap. Can't see L.R. wanting to get into that market. And then ya've got the Chinese "on the march" with their new, and new to Aus, Haval range.
So it's a tough market, & pricing wise,..VERY tough.
One question to you Pat,..Do you see the "new" Defender" being a serious competitor for the likes of the Hilux?.......Myself, I can't quite see that.
Like I said before, like everyone, I know nothing, but I'm sure interested.
Pickles.

[MrLandy]

I am a "Latte Pretender" owner with a tricked up Pretender - but guys look at it this way, if middle aged "Latte Sipping" white collar ****** keep buying Defenders, LRJ may just decided to make the new Defender very traditional to keep feeding the Pretender market as we will out buy you traditonalist 2 to 1 :)

"ever heard of Panerai "hand-wound" watches with plastic cover not glass - well you have to wind the thing up every 2-3 days but like the defender us ******* like them :D

Nice post Loius, but I'm talking about the vehicle, not the driver. Your vehicle is not a pretender if it's a Defender, it's the real deal. How you use it is entirely up to you. Best wishes and maybe I'll buy you a latte one day.

If the 'new' Defender is a pretender I won't be buying one.

I fully understand the market forces you are talking about too Pat and your thinking is sound as always. But, Defender has never gone for mass market AND I think the mass market it should go for is the Heavy Duty, Work, Mining, Military market that is now wide open, not the over supplied mid-weight dual cab ute market. ...As you say pickles that is price driven - down to a price, not up to a quality.

[goingbush]

has this been posted up yet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EX_0RcSYiiM

ha ha they have one of my photoshops on there at 16.44

[dfendr]

E NEW LAND ROVER DEFENDER

The last of the current Land Rover Defenders will roll-off the production lines of Jaguar Land Rover's Solihull factory in the West Midlands in December 2015.

But already a bold new successor for the 21st century is on the drawing board ready to replace it.

A small ?family? of Defenders is even being prepared, including a sporty beach-buggy style.

The proposed new prototype Defender takes its cue from the early canvas-roofed Defenders with their fold-down windscreens that still typify the Land Rover spirit of adventure and exploration ? but with a wrap-around aero-screen and cut-down side windows for exhilarating open-air motoring.

However, in keeping with the demands of 21st century motoring, the proposed new Defender will also include new hi-tech special features.

These include ?Wade Aid?, which uses sonar to assess water depth when crossing a shallow river or ford.

Next generation Terrain Response will optimise the car's setting for any type of environment. A ?Terrain-i ? feature maps the contours of what's ahead to create 3D visual map on the dashboard screen.

It will also have retractable ?on demand? tyre spikes for driving on snow and ice.

There's even a park-assist system to help you parallel park .

Read more: Land Rover Defender stretch with SIX wheels, stealth paint and racing car seats | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3091240/Pimp-road-ride-200-000-stretch-Land-Rover-Defender-SIX-wheels-stealth-paint-bright-red-racing-car-seats.html#ixzz3aqglTHDx)
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

[cuppabillytea]

How long does it take to reach escape velocity?

[PAT303]

Yep, realize all that, as I'm sure L.R. do.
Truth is, there's a lot of vehicles competing for, and already in, this market, some dramatically cheaper than what the Defender probably will be (although of course I don't know pricing). Some people just will not pay for quality, there's many reasons for that,...they don't need it, they don't know what "quality" is, & if they can get something that will do the job for them cheaper, then they will buy it,...and then buy another when it wears out, because they can get another NEW one cheap. Can't see L.R. wanting to get into that market. And then ya've got the Chinese "on the march" with their new, and new to Aus, Haval range.
So it's a tough market, & pricing wise,..VERY tough.
One question to you Pat,..Do you see the "new" Defender" being a serious competitor for the likes of the Hilux?.......Myself, I can't quite see that.
Like I said before, like everyone, I know nothing, but I'm sure interested.
Pickles.

No,not Hilux,Toyota can BS all they like but the Hilux is not a heavy duty vehicle,the new ones getting a smaller motor,2.8ltre from what I read in the paper,thats going to make some unhappy,private buyers look elsewhere which speaks volumes.A base model Defender along the lines of the original Telecom special Land Cruisers would take sales from all other makes,especially the LC itself,have models speced up from there,like a dual cab 130 5 seater with D4 levels of interior room powered by the TDV6 in auto or manual running live axles,1000kg+ pay load,3500kg towing traction control,A/C etc standard for $60,000-$65,000,stand back,you'll get knocked over:cool:. Pat

[PAT303]

Nice post Loius, but I'm talking about the vehicle, not the driver. Your vehicle is not a pretender if it's a Defender, it's the real deal. How you use it is entirely up to you. Best wishes and maybe I'll buy you a latte one day.

If the 'new' Defender is a pretender I won't be buying one.

I fully understand the market forces you are talking about too Pat and your thinking is sound as always. But, Defender has never gone for mass market AND I think the mass market it should go for is the Heavy Duty, Work, Mining, Military market that is now wide open, not the over supplied mid-weight dual cab ute market. ...As you say pickles that is price driven - down to a price, not up to a quality.

Remember that Land Rover was mass market,about 40-50 years ago.The noise from LR is that they want to take the Defender back their,pushing the replacement back to 2018 in my opinion is a very good sign,it means they aren't rushing it,they were going to build it on the T5 platform,like I posted earlier the fact they aren't now suggests they want to keep live axles,for off roaders,tourers,farmers etc whats the suspension of choice;). Pat

[plusnq]

No,not Hilux,Toyota can BS all they like but the Hilux is not a heavy duty vehicle,the new ones getting a smaller motor,2.8ltre from what I read in the paper,thats going to make some unhappy,private buyers look elsewhere which speaks volumes.A base model Defender along the lines of the original Telecom special Land Cruisers would take sales from all other makes,especially the LC itself,have models speced up from there,like a dual cab 130 5 seater with D4 levels of interior room powered by the TDV6 in auto or manual running live axles,1000kg+ pay load,3500kg towing traction control,A/C etc standard for $60,000-$65,000,stand back,you'll get knocked over:cool:. Pat

Oh yes. I'd love if they do that.

[cuppabillytea]

We know they've built a new engine plant for the Ingenuim series which starts at 2.0 litres and can be larger.
We know they have a super sophisticated robot manufacturing plant.
We know they have adopted the key word 'durable' to describe the new Defender.
We know they have the existing platforms which can be used under the new Defender.
We know there's talk of continuing to make the existing Defender in India.
We know they've said they want to knock off the Hilux with a range of vehicles.
That all sounds good to me.
Thanks for focusing on the known. All the speculation is making me anxious. Not that it should because I don't intend to update. However My little bloke says he want's mine when he turns 18, so who knows.

[PAT303]

Williams F1 designed the Ingenuim family of engines,going to such a well established outside source to get the technology they want is a brilliant move. Pat

[cuppabillytea]

I am a "Latte Pretender" owner with a tricked up Pretender - but guys look at it this way, if middle aged "Latte Sipping" white collar ****** keep buying Defenders, LRJ may just decided to make the new Defender very traditional to keep feeding the Pretender market as we will out buy you traditonalist 2 to 1 :)

"ever heard of Panerai "hand-wound" watches with plastic cover not glass - well you have to wind the thing up every 2-3 days but like the defender us ******* like them :D
I'm sure that the Land Rover people keep a close eye on what we the end users do with and say about our purchases. Fora such as this would be a mine of information. The significance of the market's application of their product will not be lost on them. The defender's replacement will certainly be a high resolution reflection of this. However it has to comply with Euro spec and design rules world wide so it can't remain the way it is.
Your contribution to this process is at least as important as anyone else's. I gather you are a Land Rover Lifer, so your self deprecation has to be an ironic crack at the ideologues amongst us.
I'm probably the demographic antithesis of your good self but I understand where You're coming from. I've got an old Russian Government issue watch which I bought from a Russian sailor at the collapse of the Soviet Union. It worked for about a year and a half but i still hang on to it.

[goingbush]

<snip>
I'm probably the demographic antithesis of your good self but I understand where You're coming from. I've got an old Russian Government issue watch which I bought from a Russian sailor at the collapse of the Soviet Union. It worked for about a year and a half but i still hang on to it.

Yeah , I'd keep that watch too, hang on mine still works , I never wear a watch but I'd never throw it out either, comrade . It still glows in the dark too.

or if it aint broke - don't fix it

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/05/308.jpg

After finding another 4x4 that fits me better I doubt I'll switch back unless the next defender is bloody well outstanding !!

[Didge]

.......The defender's replacement will certainly be a high resolution reflection of this. However it has to comply with Euro spec and design rules world wide so it can't remain the way it is.
.........
above quote obviously edited BUT the need to comply with standards is constantly raised as a reason the Defender must change radically however Toyota's Landcruiser 70 is pretty similar to the Defender and they've managed to put airbags, etc in and achieve compliance with standards!
see below :)

TOYOTA AUSTRALIA has announced a raft of updates for the 70 Series Landcruiser range, including ............
Driver and front passenger airbags are now standard and an extended front bumper houses sensors for the airbag system.......
The 4.5-litre engine, which meets Euro IV emission standards, delivers 151kW of power at 3400rpm and generates a sizable 430Nm of torque from 1200rpm to 3200rpm. Hopefully the Defender replacement may supply something competitive.

[cuppabillytea]

Too true Didge,and if the defender changes just that much,i'm sure everyone will be well chuffed.

[PAT303]

above quote obviously edited BUT the need to comply with standards is constantly raised as a reason the Defender must change radically however Toyota's Landcruiser 70 is pretty similar to the Defender and they've managed to put airbags, etc in and achieve compliance with standards!
see below :)

TOYOTA AUSTRALIA has announced a raft of updates for the 70 Series Landcruiser range, including ............
Driver and front passenger airbags are now standard and an extended front bumper houses sensors for the airbag system.......
The 4.5-litre engine, which meets Euro IV emission standards, delivers 151kW of power at 3400rpm and generates a sizable 430Nm of torque from 1200rpm to 3200rpm. Hopefully the Defender replacement may supply something competitive.

It would be helpfull if you posted up to date info,all vehicles sold in Oz have to be Euro V standard by November 2016,the Defender doesn't meet Euro V,neither does the Land Cruiser. Pat

[cuppabillytea]

Yeah , I'd keep that watch too, hang on mine still works , I never wear a watch but I'd never throw it out either, comrade . It still glows in the dark too.

or if it aint broke - don't fix it

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/05/308.jpg

After finding another 4x4 that fits me better I doubt I'll switch back unless the next defender is bloody well outstanding !!
Well said on all fronts tovarich. Your watch is a finer example and probably older than mine.

[Didge]

Oh bugger, ya got me on a minor technicality there, didn't ya Pat? :) let me look further

[Didge]

This confirms Pat's earlier advice:
New Toyota 70 Series ‘under study&#39; - motoring.com.au (http://www.motoring.com.au/news/2013/commercial/toyota/landcruiser/new-toyota-70-series-%E2%80%98under-study-39967)

HOWEVER
let's take a different tack and look at the Merc G wagen - see below :) part of article from March 2011 found at:
Mercedes-Benz G-Class G350 BlueTec - First drive: Benz gives G-wagen another go | GoAuto (http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/C69363B300100D2CCA25784D000ED531)


While the body and chassis are old-school, the diesel engine in the G-class represents the latest technology from Mercedes-Benz. The G350 BlueTec is the first Benz passenger vehicle in Australia to use AdBlue to reduce emissions from the diesel engine.

AdBlue is a urea solution that when injected into the hot exhaust system releases ammonia to convert up to 80 per cent of the nitrogen oxides (NOx) in the exhaust into harmless nitrogen and water when it reaches the SCR catalytic converter

Only a small amount of AdBlue is required, and Mercedes Benz claims that a single tank of AdBlue is good for about 12,000km or until the next service interval.

This technology has been used in heavy trucks for some time, so should an owner ever have to top up the AdBlue, it is available from highway truckstops, as well as Mercedes dealerships. On the G-class, the tank is filled via an opening beside the fuel filler.

BlueTec has reduced the NOx emissions from the turbo-diesel engine in the G350 by around 50 per cent to 295grams per kilometre, and the engine meets Euro 5 emissions regulations.

So back to my original argument/ thoughts - I don't see why JLR can't keep the basic shape of the Defender with obvious improvements that should have happened decades ago (Merc has something similar) and still meet all the requirements of EU emissions and safety - if they can do it so can JLR.

[goingbush]

Of course they can do it.

A hybrid Iveco Massif / Defender would tick all the boxes

Read the model in Brief article in the link below - if only LandRover would follow this philosophy , they would sell like hotcakes, let the late sippers buy Evoques etc.

http://www.iveco.com/en-us/press-room/kit/Pages/the_massif_in_brief.aspx

I reckon the interior craps all over a Puma too AND they have elbow room !!

say Iveco Massif on Defender suspension with the 3.0L Sofim FPT engine.

That engine rocks - Mine is the twin turbo Euro5 and in a defender would go like stink, same engine now is into Euro6 in the new Daily - with AbBlue

[MrLandy]

Thanks Goingbush, intriguing. Iveco Massif on the radar.

...and yes, of course LR can do it... But will they? is the question. Or will they capitulate into the Hilux market?

[goingbush]

Unfortunatly thats quite an old press release the Massif is now History, Defender soon to follow.

Iveco Massif - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iveco_Massif)

the Massif was superseded by the New Daily 4x4, If I get a chance to buy a Massif and bring it back here I will, I think they are the goods http://static.commercialmotor.com/big-lorry-blog/Massif01.JPG

[cuppabillytea]

That argument/thought stands straight up Didge. Might even be prophetic. Billy

[MrLandy]

I reckon the real story is that Land Rover are hell bent on repositioning Defender as a recreational dualcab/wagon. It might have live axles Pat, but I'm not convinced. Goingbush is right I reckon - Iveco or Isuzu have it all before them if they want it - the light truck crossover. Land Rover and Toyota are going for the mass leisure market, like Nissan before them.

[LouisW]

I'm sure that the Land Rover people keep a close eye on what we the end users do with and say about our purchases. Fora such as this would be a mine of information. The significance of the market's application of their product will not be lost on them. The defender's replacement will certainly be a high resolution reflection of this. However it has to comply with Euro spec and design rules world wide so it can't remain the way it is.
Your contribution to this process is at least as important as anyone else's. I gather you are a Land Rover Lifer, so your self deprecation has to be an ironic crack at the ideologues amongst us.
I'm probably the demographic antithesis of your good self but I understand where You're coming from. I've got an old Russian Government issue watch which I bought from a Russian sailor at the collapse of the Soviet Union. It worked for about a year and a half but i still hang on to it.

:) and ....amazing time piece, you should have it refurbished.

[Blade74]

Wishful thinking didge.

[scarry]

I reckon the real story is that Land Rover are hell bent on repositioning Defender as a recreational dualcab/wagon. It might have live axles Pat, but I'm not convinced. Goingbush is right I reckon - Iveco or Isuzu have it all before them if they want it - the light truck crossover. Land Rover and Toyota are going for the mass leisure market, like Nissan before them.

My thoughts as well,LR are usually ahead of the rest,and IS is the future.

Lets just hope they don't complicate the vehicle more than it has to be,it seems they are going away from driver input,with LR also leading the way.

I nice basic simple,but very capable,family wagon has been missing from their line up for years.Auto,TDV6 bla bla.Sensible tyre sizes are a must as well.

As for being as popular as the Hilux,can't see that ever happening,very difficult to change peoples ideas,that would take decades.

[frantic]

Scarry ford already outsell the hilux, if you combine both ranger and bt50 sales, they have for about 2 years in the 4x4 ute sector. Their identical cars under the skin, and what the new defender would have been based on if lr was still in bed with ford, hell, it's even got a 130 inch wheelbase;)
For that reason, lr should target the ranger , bt 50, as well as the hilux as the ute to beat. Not so much the bt50 look as its but ugly from the front.:D

[MrLandy]

Scarry ford already outsell the hilux, if you combine both ranger and bt50 sales, they have for about 2 years in the 4x4 ute sector. Their identical cars under the skin, and what the new defender would have been based on if lr was still in bed with ford, hell, it's even got a 130 inch wheelbase;)
For that reason, lr should target the ranger , bt 50, as well as the hilux as the ute to beat. Not so much the bt50 look as its but ugly from the front.:D

And that's the end of Defender.

[PAT303]

For all of you who think the new defender will be a show pony,read the article Didge posted,Toyota spent how many 100 millions making the 79 meet Australian mine standards,they would not have spent that money if there wasn't a rich market for it,yes they lost out on the dual cab but that's because they are $80,000 to buy,the mines and mum/dad buyers bought light duty DC's instead.Do you think Land Rover would not know about not only our resource sector but Europe's as well?,the biggest coal mine in Germany use unregistered 79 series ute's on site,with the LC going LR would be the only player in town and having said Defender must meet volume sales figures to be viable,building a modern version of the present one would tick all the box's,a DC100 type vehicle wouldn't. Pat

[MrLandy]

Really hope you're right Pat. ...but my first question is: Why has Defender, especially the 130, NOT been king of the mines or Central/Northern Australia already? - I'm talking total absence!! I suggest it's Land Rover's absolute lack of understanding or valuing of these markets, including virtually no sales/service agents in Central and northern Australia...and I don't see any signs of this attitude changing...??

Question 2: why doesn't the category WORK feature in Land Rover's promo alongside Luxury and Recreation as their priorities? Why do they keep talking about Hilux as some kind of global benchmark??

Still not convinced. Really hope I'm wrong.

[PAT303]

It was,when I first started in the mines I worked at HVO coal mine,we had a fleet of 130's,then the town dealer closed so no direct support and the mine safe rules came into play and it was all over,the OCE of that mine drove one of the first Td6 L322 series Range Rovers to come into the country.I don't get the negativity,Land Rover are not stupid and people need to get away from the cafe vehicle mindset,if it wasn't for the cafe,Freelander,Evoque and new Discovery Sport vehicles Land Rover wouldn't have the capital to invest in Defender,too many of you,many on this thread are blinded by that thinking and fail to see the big picture,last year Land Rover sold more vehicles than ever before in it's history and financially the company is very strong,it has both the time,money and infrastructure to build both the alloy bodied D4 replacement and Defender. Pat

[Didge]

This is an interesting thread - lots of varied opinions and concerns but all with the same hope :)

[Pickles2]

Who knows,....anything?
What the "New" defender will be, what it will be, in what market it will sell, depends to a large extent, what "importance" JLR place upon it.
Maybe Defender,whilst still being the Icon, is not as important in the overall "Picture" to JLR as it once was?...Who knows?
Pickles.

[frantic]

And that's the end of Defender.

No that's the middle model defender. They are doing a 3 prong approach to each sector. Currently you have 3 levels of north shore/ tourak tractor, there are 2 soccer mom discos and my guess from their info their will be 2-3 different sized defenders, one about amarok/ranger/hilux size, one around vitara, Rav 4 , cherokee size, and maybe a bigger one if the market can justify it/ sufficient USA demand.
There is a hole in the off-road smaller ute market and genuine off road small 4door wagon( vitara and cherokee trail hawk only 2 ), large sales in the hilux/ranger size globally, with a wagon using identical front panels/drivetrain.

[cccp53]

Next-gen Defender to be built in Eastern Europe (http://www.carsales.com.au/news/2015/land-rover/defender/next-gen-defender-to-be-built-in-eastern-europe-51393?csn_tn=true)

[DiscoMick]

That might not be popular in England but probably makes financial sense

[AndyG]

I live in hope that LR have had a long hard talk to the MOD and other key customers about the base requirements for a work vehicle for 2020 - 2040 .

If they do that, we should all be happy with the results.
If not, well i've got mine :)

[MrLandy]

I live in hope that LR have had a long hard talk to the MOD and other key customers about the base requirements for a work vehicle for 2020 - 2040.

Finally! Someone else calling for a real world work vehicle, not just more boutique world playmobiles! Well said AndyG.

[MrLandy]

PS: I reckon even good Defenders maketh the philosopher.

[Mocky]

In my opinion the longer it takes for Defenders replacement to come online the better it will be.
In other words don't rush them.

Mocky

[Orkney 90]

In my opinion the longer it takes for Defenders replacement to come online the better it will be.
In other words don't rush them.

Mocky

In what way would it be better? Delaying the new model would not give the current model a reprieve.

[PAT303]

Finally! Someone else calling for a real world work vehicle, not just more boutique world playmobiles! Well said AndyG.

:confused: Land Rover has been saying that from the word go,the reason for the delay with the replacement,this thread has gone full circle about three times. Pat

[PAT303]

In what way would it be better? Delaying the new model would not give the current model a reprieve.

Read post 179,it's a good thing. Pat

[MrLandy]

:confused: Land Rover has been saying that from the word go,the reason for the delay with the replacement,this thread has gone full circle about three times. Pat

No they haven't, they keep talking about hi tech vehicles that drive themselves, leisure and luxury categories and competing with with Hilux! I Haven't seen anything from Land Rover about next Defender being a work or Military duty vehicle, or any sign of the expanded dealer network required to support it in the mining industry. Nothing so far has convinced me other than Land Rover see the market for next Defender as city lifestyle adventure - the same market as all other new Land Rover vehicles.

[PAT303]

Land Rover from the outset said the defender must take the fight to Land Cruiser in OZ and Africa,to the point of changing the wheel stud pattern to match Toyota's,they always said they want Defender in North America to take on Jeep,the reason the DC100 got axed,lets drop the negativity,the next Defender will rock. Pat

[MrLandy]

Hope I'm wrong Pat. Cheers mate.

[Blade74]

I'm with you Pat!
I'm keeping faith that the next car will be good.
Yes it's going to be very different as it will be a new design.
A lot of people will find it hard to accept that it really will be a different car.
They will keep the same style to a certain degree aka like the discovery has for years (not the new discovery sport as its a different car).
I was thinking just yesterday that it's taking them a few years to launch it so they're really trying to get it right and are putting a lot thought into it.
I guess it's the most important car in their range for representing Landrovers roots.
Hopefully it's not taking them a while as its not a high priority but I highly doubt it.
I'm thinking that I'll jump on buying one when they come out.

I know this isn't an official picture of the car but if it's anything like this it will be awesome:



94400

[AndyG]

Wild arse guess here.

Prototype will be revealed on 19 Sept 2015, Peterborough , LR Owner Show, as a soft launch, only LR show LR attending in 2015 apparenetly
To me:
All existing production will be sold
Keep faith with the faithful
They have a product to talk to key clients about going forward.

I'm probably totally wrong, but you never know.;)

[DiscoMick]

Some statements I've read have been about the new Defender knocking the Hilux off its perch. Aren't they supposedly even using the same size parts as on Hiluxes e.g. wheels etc?
Incidentally, the last stories I've read have talked about a 2017 launch for the new Defender, so should this thread title be changed?

[PAT303]

Is the D3-4 a giant leap up from the D1-2,is the FL2 from the FL1,L405 RR from the RRC?,why would the Defender replacement be any different?. Pat

[goingbush]

Is the D3-4 a giant leap up from the D1-2,is the FL2 from the FL1,L405 RR from the RRC?,why would the Defender replacement be any different?. Pat

There has never been any giant Leaps at LandRover , only subtle changes.

The 'bright spark' that set off the trend toward creature comfort and away from utilitarian was the Velar - but yes if you compare a 2015 Defender to a 1961 LandRover SW theres a giant leap - even they almost look identical to many people , or can me made to look identical with a few cosmetic parts - but through the years - no giant leaps !

The Velar became what is known now as the RRC

The next 'Defender' needs to be another 'bright spark' - and imo back to utilitarian (concessions to ANCAP and ADR's withstanding) , creature comforts are for school pickup zones.

[Pickles2]

Is the D3-4 a giant leap up from the D1-2,is the FL2 from the FL1,L405 RR from the RRC?,why would the Defender replacement be any different?. Pat
Pat, if I read you correctly, you have great faith in "Defender"/the "Defender" as it was, is, & should be/will be. So do I.
What do you think the "new", I'm not sure about 2016, could be 2018, Defender will be,...engine size, transmission, body configuration/shape etc.
What are you "predictions", as to what we will see in the "New" Defender?
Pickles.

[tact]

"Work truck" type things I appreciate in my 2013 DC:
- close to flat flooring in the front footwells, ie no door sills. Rubber mats not carpet, reasonably washable, hose-able coverings on firewall and transmission bump etc
- in the rear: flat floors, rubber mats, hose-able even behind and under the rear seats, no door sills
- no fuzzy soft interior linings below roof level
- of course the tub: no soft trim or fake roll bars etc

The sort of interior that doesn't make you cringe to think about drilling, cutting, sticking things to. No nonsense.

Would creature comforts be welcome? For sure. Provided they don't compromise the above. E.g. Cruise control but not carpets. Power outlets front, back, tub, but not plastic coin holders.

Adopting things from Hilux?:
- wheel stud pattern, ok. But not the rims/tyres that Hilux come with.


Other thoughts?

[PAT303]

There has never been any giant Leaps at LandRover , only subtle changes.

The 'bright spark' that set off the trend toward creature comfort and away from utilitarian was the Velar - but yes if you compare a 2015 Defender to a 1961 LandRover SW theres a giant leap - even they almost look identical to many people , or can me made to look identical with a few cosmetic parts - but through the years - no giant leaps !

The Velar became what is known now as the RRC

The next 'Defender' needs to be another 'bright spark' - and imo back to utilitarian (concessions to ANCAP and ADR's withstanding) , creature comforts are for school pickup zones.

So the original RRC wasn't a giant leap?,the vehicle that was so far ahead of it's time it totally changed the entire thinking behind 4wd vehicles:confused:,one of only two or three vehicles to have ever done that,as an example. Pat

[goingbush]

So the original RRC wasn't a giant leap?,the vehicle that was so far ahead of it's time it totally changed the entire thinking behind 4wd vehicles:confused:,one of only two or three vehicles to have ever done that,as an example. Pat

no, as opposed to a "giant leap" it was a bright spark, like the bright spark that set off the big bang to create the universe,

If the Series LandRover had stopped production then the RRC took off from there- thats a giant leap .

semantics eh !!

[MrLandy]

It's a giant leap of faith to think that a so-called Defender with little Hilux wheels! will be any good! ...Let alone that a service network that is so city-centric is at all serious about supporting the vast working reality across this country.

[PAT303]

Pat, if I read you correctly, you have great faith in "Defender"/the "Defender" as it was, is, & should be/will be. So do I.
What do you think the "new", I'm not sure about 2016, could be 2018, Defender will be,...engine size, transmission, body configuration/shape etc.
What are you "predictions", as to what we will see in the "New" Defender?
Pickles.

2018 means we are deep into Euro VI standards,the front won't be as ''bluff'' as it is now,more curved with no sharp corners,it's important we are made responsible for injuries caused to half wits J walking,the 2.7 is out,possibly a single turbo 3.0ltre but my guess an Ingenuim engine,LR will go that way to get a longer production run,gearbox's will be auto's with lots of gears,6 speed manual as option,any more is silly,separate transfer,the body would have some Defender traits to carry tradition but will look like the current updated vehicles,I'd expect D4/RRS rounded front end with their lights,no 7'' rounds,I really think they will closely copy the D4 interior,owners love them because they sat 5 people in seats and designed the body around them,simply brilliant thinking,the diffs are hard,they have none that will work,the rear body is hard also,they want three lengths like we have now,a separate chassis is the way to go but they might go a D3-4 with alloy body with steel half chassis,that works very well and could solve mounting a tray,all the latest electric crap to meet world regulations,a basic model for farmers and mine sites and go up from there.What would I like to see,a 3.0ltre ingenuim long stroke four with no transfer but a 9 speed auto with first/second/third lock out spec'ed to my current X-Tech with nice sound/heat proofing,strong head lights,no adapter shafts or axle flanges,redundancy on all electrics and air suspension,strong A/C at the current ones weight but not much wider,I've knocked the mirrors off both of mine.The defender replacement must be equal or better offroad than the present one. Pat

[MrLandy]

...simple:

Heavy duty box chassis and aluminium body with square sided practical inside load space = low centre of gravity, real durability, strength, practicality.

Full size wheels, solid axles, hd diffs and capable, simple and reliable coil spring suspension = ground clearance and reliability.

Heavy duty clutch, gearbox and mechanical low range = solidity and reliability

Truck solid diesel engine, not a tricked up car engine = confidence and longevity

ABS, airbags, traction control, dual batteries, multiple power outlets, real headlights, aircon, heating.

Excellent upright seating position, supportive seats, flat glass side windows. Flat sided body = unmatched visibility off road and comfortable for long km's.

[goingbush]

This is the 2016 Euro6 Iveco Daily 4x4 . ADR compliant (once stupid spare wheel cover is removed)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/05/175.jpg

Live Axles , no concessions to pedestrian safety underneath - The thing is so high - hit a pedestrian and they go under not over ,

registerd as a car or truck , seating for 7 (dual cab) Tare 2750 gvm 4495 (car) or 5500 (truck)

Hose out interior no sills no carpet full time 4x4 3x diff locks standard , and all for $80,000 (for single cab chassis)

why talk about hilux as a benchmark, the Hilux - turned to **** in 1997 when they introduced IFS I can't imagine why anyone can put HiLux and Defender in the same sentence.

Customers are turning away from crap 4x4's offered today and finally have a chance to buy a decent workhorse again. LandRover needs to think about it .

[MrLandy]

If a truck can be Euro6 and ADR compliant, why not a serious HD 4WD? Iveco too big, but great illustration of what's possible and I bet it doesn't have a twiddly terrain selector knob. A Defender is a small truck, not a big car.

"...I can't imagine why anyone can put Hilux and Defender in the same sentence" - absolutely.

[Pickles2]

2018 means we are deep into Euro VI standards,the front won't be as ''bluff'' as it is now,more curved with no sharp corners,it's important we are made responsible for injuries caused to half wits J walking,the 2.7 is out,possibly a single turbo 3.0ltre but my guess an Ingenuim engine,LR will go that way to get a longer production run,gearbox's will be auto's with lots of gears,6 speed manual as option,any more is silly,separate transfer,the body would have some Defender traits to carry tradition but will look like the current updated vehicles,I'd expect D4/RRS rounded front end with their lights,no 7'' rounds,I really think they will closely copy the D4 interior,owners love them because they sat 5 people in seats and designed the body around them,simply brilliant thinking,the diffs are hard,they have none that will work,the rear body is hard also,they want three lengths like we have now,a separate chassis is the way to go but they might go a D3-4 with alloy body with steel half chassis,that works very well and could solve mounting a tray,all the latest electric crap to meet world regulations,a basic model for farmers and mine sites and go up from there.What would I like to see,a 3.0ltre ingenuim long stroke four with no transfer but a 9 speed auto with first/second/third lock out spec'ed to my current X-Tech with nice sound/heat proofing,strong head lights,no adapter shafts or axle flanges,redundancy on all electrics and air suspension,strong A/C at the current ones weight but not much wider,I've knocked the mirrors off both of mine.The defender replacement must be equal or better offroad than the present one. Pat
Sounds good.
I wonder how long We'll have to wait for the first REAL bit of FACTUAL spec stuff from JLR, giving away a bit of the World's best kept secret?
Pickles.

[DiscoMick]

I think the D3 was a great leap forwards in terms of Terrain Response which was then spread across the whole LR range (except Defender) and has been copied by other manufacturers.
I agree the Defender has to be a LOT better than a Hilux. I only mentioned it because I think it was Gerry McGovern who was quoted at one stage saying their target was to knock the Hilux off its pedestal. I think the Ford Ranger/Mazda BT50 has already done that. Will be interesting to see if the new Hilux is much of an improvement.

[Pickles2]

I think the D3 was a great leap forwards in terms of Terrain Response which was then spread across the whole LR range (except Defender) and has been copied by other manufacturers.
I agree the Defender has to be a LOT better than a Hilux. I only mentioned it because I think it was Gerry McGovern who was quoted at one stage saying their target was to knock the Hilux off its pedestal. I think the Ford Ranger/Mazda BT50 has already done that. Will be interesting to see if the new Hilux is much of an improvement.
G'Day Disco. Mate, is that really correct that the HiLux has been knocked off by the Ranger & BT50?.....I'm not saying it isn't,.....I just didn't know!
McGovern?....."The Master Of Subterfuge"?.....He has yet to give any REAL stuff away.
Pickles.

[frantic]

G'Day Disco. Mate, is that really correct that the HiLux has been knocked off by the Ranger & BT50?.....I'm not saying it isn't,.....I just didn't know!
McGovern?....."The Master Of Subterfuge"?.....He has yet to give any REAL stuff away.
Pickles.

The last 2 years ranger has outsold it's twin BT50 about 2:1, this means in 2014 ranger sold 20,000 4x4s, Mazda about 10,000 4x4s to hilux who sold 27,000 4x4 hilux models.
Mazda is going to put on a new face on its bt50 mid year as that is one of the two big issues in its slower sales. The other is fleet.
These are numbers jan to June 2014 and show the twins about 1000 sales ahead of hilux.http://m.motoring.com.au/reviews/2014/commercial/dual-duel-4wd-dual-cab-ute-comparison-2014-45212

[Pickles2]

The last 2 years ranger has outsold it's twin BT50 about 2:1, this means in 2014 ranger sold 20,000 4x4s, Mazda about 10,000 4x4s to hilux who sold 27,000 4x4 hilux models.
Mazda is going to put on a new face on its bt50 mid year as that is one of the two big issues in its slower sales. The other is fleet.
These are numbers jan to June 2014 and show the twins about 1000 sales ahead of hilux.Dual duel: 4WD dual-cab ute comparison 2014 - motoring.com.au (http://m.motoring.com.au/reviews/2014/commercial/dual-duel-4wd-dual-cab-ute-comparison-2014-45212)
Ha ha ha, G'Day Frantic, you are ALWAYS the best with figures!!
Any mechanical upgrades for Ford & Mazda?,.....and also the HiLux I guess?.....I've heard it said that the Ranger engine is the one that should've gone into the Defender?
Pickles.

[goingbush]

The last 2 years ranger has outsold it's twin BT50 about 2:1, this means in 2014 ranger sold 20,000 4x4s, Mazda about 10,000 4x4s to hilux who sold 27,000 4x4 hilux models.
Mazda is going to put on a new face on its bt50 mid year as that is one of the two big issues in its slower sales. The other is fleet.
These are numbers jan to June 2014 and show the twins about 1000 sales ahead of hilux.Dual duel: 4WD dual-cab ute comparison 2014 - motoring.com.au (http://m.motoring.com.au/reviews/2014/commercial/dual-duel-4wd-dual-cab-ute-comparison-2014-45212)

Frantic, one of the comments under that article you linked to says it all .

the YN65 he refers to is the Live Axle hilux .
If Defender drops Live Axles I'll never buy another one - which is a pity, as I'll have to buy a 'Wrangler Africa' instead :(


Rip Van Winkle ? 10 months ago
Congratulations. One of the most comprehensive road tests ever published. Very fair and considered presentation of facts and opinions. I bought the base model Triton last year after deliberating and testing most of these vehicles, being fortunate enough to have Rangers, Amaroks, D-Max, Colorado and Hilux in our work fleet. I acknowledge and admire the benefits of the top rated vehicles in your test but for my personal vehicle I was swayed by the amount of coin I had left to put towards my wife's Skoda Yeti. It is great to see we have so much choice in this category that every Aussie can match his needs, desires and personal choices with the amount of cash he is willing to outlay without the risk of being too disapointed with their choice. By the way I also still drive my YN65 that I have owned for 30 years and I reckon none of these would hold a candle to it off road - now there is a vehicle I wish I could still buy brand new again !!!!

[DiscoMick]

G'Day Disco. Mate, is that really correct that the HiLux has been knocked off by the Ranger & BT50?.....I'm not saying it isn't,.....I just didn't know!
McGovern?....."The Master Of Subterfuge"?.....He has yet to give any REAL stuff away.
Pickles.
I was just expressing an opinion about the merits of those vehicles, not their sales, but I think its generally agreed by the experts that the Ranger/BT 50 are currently technically superior to the Hilux. Be interesting to see if the coming new Hilux catches up.
The Defender's 2.2 engine is the base model in the Ranger, but I think I read somewhere that Ford wouldn't let LR use the larger engine in the Defender, which is a pity. Still, LR will soon be using its own engines in the next Defender.

[frantic]

Ha ha ha, G'Day Frantic, you are ALWAYS the best with figures!!
Any mechanical upgrades for Ford & Mazda?,.....and also the HiLux I guess?.....I've heard it said that the Ranger engine is the one that should've gone into the Defender?
Pickles.

Maths can't lie, but it can be ignored by some.;)
Hilux is due for a new model either mid or end of this year

The ranger 3.2 TD5 was first built in the u.k ( put into transit vans and exported for the first few months of Thai ranger/bt50 production until their engine plant got going)and I believe if Ford hadn't sold LR it would be under the bonnet now.
The gearbox is almost the same, which is why there are several companies doing engine swaps putting the 3.2 in pumas in the uk.
P.s for a Hint at what might have been, look at a rangers bonnet line, it's very similar to the RRC in the way it's cut along the side clam shell like. Other utes are cut along the horizontal panel to make a bonnet line, even the bt50.
Throw in the 130in wheelbase, a unique front and possibly some aluminium panels instead of steel and that would have been ford's defender in a can.

[PAT303]

Ha ha ha, G'Day Frantic, you are ALWAYS the best with figures!!
Any mechanical upgrades for Ford & Mazda?,.....and also the HiLux I guess?.....I've heard it said that the Ranger engine is the one that should've gone into the Defender?
Pickles.

I couldn't,we had a long winded thread about the 3.2ltr and why it wasn't fitted in the defender,simple reason is it went into production around 2006 and the TDCi was in production in 2007.Before the British designed engines were produced Ford used rebadged Mazda vehicles and engines,they also had the PSA/Ford/Land Rover/Volvo engines they still use now,the TDCi name has been on many dfferent engines,some with no family history. Pat

[MrLandy]

My puma sounds like a Land Rover, the air intake purring, the transfer case shunt, the bolt action gearbox, the constant 4WD heavy duty mechanical driveline. And there's something about the way the aluminium body resonates. Sounds nothing like the nondescript tickytack of a Ranger.

[MrLandy]

...not sure how they're going to achieve that unique Defender character in an all new model, if it ever eventuates.

[JDNSW]

...not sure how they're going to achieve that unique Defender character in an all new model, if it ever eventuates.

The most distinctive 'character' of the Defender results from the design features from 1948 that were chosen to allow rapid progress from proposal to the board in September 1947 to delivery of the first production vehicle in July 1948.

These included the use of an absolute minimum of pressed panels, so that there was no delay in preparing tooling, and assembly by labour intensive methods to avoid capital intensive machinery, using a skilled workforce already in place from wartime munition production.

This resulted in a chassis made from flat plates, stick welded together, and a body almost entirely from flat panels with simple bends spot welded, rivetted or bolted together.

Since then, the amount of labour required has been reduced somewhat by increased use of pressed panels, but this has been offset by increasingly stringent design rules.

However, given that the relative costs of capital and labour are very different in 2016 to 1947, we can be certain that the new design will be designed for assembly with a minimum of labour and maximum automation. In view of this, it is really asking for a lot to expect the 'character' of the Defender to be preserved. With any sort of luck though, it will be just as capable - but this begs the question as to what you mean by 'capable'.

John

[Blade74]

I thought the most distinctive character was the ability for water to flow in and out of the cabin. 😁

[MrLandy]

...what! no more rivets? Maybe they went back to the drawing board to build something designed for longevity. What a miracle that would be in this day and age!

No Defender character = Toyota.

[JDNSW]

I don't expect it to have the same character, but that does not mean it won't have character.

John

[Tombie]

I don't expect it to have the same character, but that does not mean it won't have character.

John

Agree...

An example - The VN Commodore... Horrible bloated looking things...
"They" (according to the young lads on site) are now cool... And the lads all love the shape, lines and all things that make up its 'character'..

[DiscoMick]

...what! no more rivets? Maybe they went back to the drawing board to build something designed for longevity. What a miracle that would be in this day and age!

No Defender character = Toyota.

I like my rivets. They're really useful when you want to add or replace something.

[cuppabillytea]

The talk on this thread speaks volumes more than the sum of it's words. I hope they are listening at Land Rover. I'm with MrLandy on the sounds and vibes thing. By the way, a robot only does what a human has shown it. There is no reason why a robot can't do rivets and flat panels just as well as a hand.