So the PUMA goes back to the garage again tomorrow

[dullbird]

*SIGH*

The Puma is going back to the garage again tomorrow for the engine rattle that they have still not found the fault to:(...

This problem has been chased for nearly 18months now..And its back again funnily enough with the colder weather! Again.

And is getting worse day by day.....Not to mention the added annoyance of pulsing on no throttle slightly down hill...which is also getting worse.

The other day the pulsing came on so much that it was making are second chins noticeably wobble:BigCry: :D

I think the only things that have yet to be looked at on this car is the MAF and the factory fuel mapping. I'm personally going with both. as the two issues we have now I think are separate.

Even more annoying than that is the time and money WE have to dedicate taking this car to the bloody garage..especially as we have to pay for a courtesy car, I just think its wrong! why should we have to keep paying for cars trains etc etc to get us home and back to the garage to pick up because they can't find a fault on our car.. I need to count up how many times the car has been in that garage BUT IT IS A LOT.....and has cost us a lot of money.

You don't buy new cars so you can spend money constantly boring one IMHO:mad:

[scarry]

Maybe a letter to LR Australia may help?
I feel your pain:mad:

[dullbird]

Thinking about it, but very much doubt its going to achieve anything.
You know was thinking about my next car being a D3.....with the service that we have got from owning a new car I'm not going to bother.

It does not pay to buy new these days...not when you still have to spend money. I can only say that I love my car but I'm becoming increasingly disappointed with Land rover so much so that the D3 is not looking so exciting any more.

Should of brought second hand so we could service it our selves and been 20grand better off

[Chucaro]

I cannot understand why you have to be out of pocket when the LR mechanics do not have the expertice to find the problem.
I know that with my latin blood I will be see my solicitor if I was in your shoes :mad:

It is not only LR, I have a friend with a top of the line crusier which have defective speedo and Toyota cannot find where is the problem.
New speedo cost between 1500 and 2000 depending the serial number of the vehicle. :eek:
The vehicle already was 4 times at the dealer!

[BigJon]

If the Cruiser has had the speedo looked at while under warranty and it wasn't fixed, Toyota are legally obliged to repair it properly free of charge even if the warranty has expired.

[dmdigital]

Not good Lou. Hope they get it sorted this time.

[Chucaro]

If the Cruiser has had the speedo looked at while under warranty and it wasn't fixed, Toyota are legally obliged to repair it properly free of charge even if the warranty has expired.

Yes you are correct, but who is going to pay for all the lost time by the client just because Toyota do not like to change all the components at once?
Also they ask the client to do the trouble shooting and drive the vehicle with a speedo that do not work all the time :mad:
It is very similar problem to what it is hapen with the Puma, they need to be told by a solicitor what are their obligations.

[slug_burner]

When I did get my Defender serviced by the dealer many years ago, they used to give you a courtesy car. As time went on, they wanted you to pay for the courtesy car or you could have a shuttle ride back tot he city center.

For the costs they were charging they should have retained the courtesy car instead of turning it into a hire car. When they are chasing warranty claims they should pay all your costs.

I too feel for you. The cost of new cars is just a little too rich for my blood to then have to put up with the fault finding on warranty claims. At least when you buy second hand you can pick your mechanic and also get in there and sort things for yourself.

If I was after a D3 the issues with the defender puma would not put me off. I don't know if D3 drivers are less vocal or if their product has been sorted out a bit better. LR would have a lot more invested into the D3 market. LR is just living off the following the defender and series vehicles have built up in the past. They have no real interest in the utility market, the prestige market is where LR wants to be. Plenty of fat built into the prices.

[dullbird]

When I did get my Defender serviced by the dealer many years ago, they used to give you a courtesy car. As time went on, they wanted you to pay for the courtesy car or you could have a shuttle ride back tot he city center.

For the costs they were charging they should have retained the courtesy car instead of turning it into a hire car. When they are chasing warranty claims they should pay all your costs.

I too feel for you. The cost of new cars is just a little too rich for my blood to then have to put up with the fault finding on warranty claims. At least when you buy second hand you can pick your mechanic and also get in there and sort things for yourself.


If I was after a D3 the issues with the defender puma would not put me off. I don't know if D3 drivers are less vocal or if their product has been sorted out a bit better. LR would have a lot more invested into the D3 market. LR is just living off the following the defender and series vehicles have built up in the past. They have no real interest in the utility market, the prestige market is where LR wants to be. Plenty of fat built into the prices.

its not the issues with the defender that has put me off its the lack of support via Landrover Australia that has done it.

The issues yeah well they are bloody annoying but I expected them having one of the first in OZ. What I didn't expect is having to pay god knows how much money and time out of my own pocket while we are the test bed for the new model. The issues would be a lot more easier to stomach if we weren't having the added hassles of getting the car to and from the dealership every bloody 5 mins.

To give you some idea everytime Ian has to pick up the car it costs him $15 on the train from the airport if he goes straight from work:mad:...otherwise he comes home I rush from work to pick him up and then I drive him up there which is also my time and my fuel

[Blknight.aus]

time to hit them on the lemon laws, demand a replacement vehicle if they cant sort the reliability problems.

[solmanic]

..especially as we have to pay for a courtesy car,...

WHOAH!!! That's not right! I think you need to change dealers. I always insist on a free courtesy car whenever the Defender goes in for warranty work. It does often mean I have to wait a little for a window when one is available, but I'm not putting up with running around chasing defects for free! And believe me, I take it out of the loan car's @rse in fuel and wear and tear ;). I think the last one may not have even made it from the dealership to the servo for its next fill up :cool:.

[Roulston]

I have an SVX and wondered that if I really need specialist advice on the engine I might not get good expert advice, on the engine at least from FORD.


These engines have been on the road for years and done billions of miles in transit vans, they have little to prove, but debugging an intermittent fault might be easier for a ford mech.

Even if were simply for a diagnoses.

Tony (SVX78)

[dullbird]

I have an SVX and wondered that if I really need specialist advice on the engine I might not get good expert advice, on the engine at least from FORD.



These engines have been on the road for years and done billions of miles in transit vans, they have little to prove, but debugging an intermittent fault might be easier for a ford mech.Even if were simply for a diagnoses.

Tony (SVX78)

That's all well and good but they are not exactly the same as what is in a ford as ford gave the engine to landrover and they redid a lot of stuff to get the power&torque etc out of it that they did. Plus there are parts on the engine that were redesigned and made by landrover.

Infact I believe that ford were so impressed what the land rover engineers had done to the engine that they took on the designs to reincorparate back into there transit.

Funnily enough I think the vacuum pump was one of the land rover redesigned and built parts........:lol2: and it failed:lol2:

Edit: As far as I'm also aware transits have had a lot of problems with the EGR...

[PAT303]

The one problem I have with engine knocks is that they are very common in most or if not all new T/D's.Why that is I don't know but the D4D is renowned for it and the three I have had for work vehicles rattled quite badly,one was almost like detonation at start up.Does the engine knock when cold or all the time?. Pat

[dullbird]

Doesn't knock on start up and tick over....and its not really a knock its a machine gun rattle. (possible detoantion) and only does it as its about to hit boost 2000rpm only in the morning and when its cold and or damp. it happens every morning unless we go out when it has warmed up a bit late morning and the car has had the sun on it.

once it has done it it will not do it for the rest of the day.......

Although the newest thing it has started doing on occasions is it will do it again 50 meters up the road. this has never happened in the past, in the past it used to do it once and if it was bad enough go into limp mode.

[Sleepy]

WHOAH!!! That's not right! I think you need to change dealers. I always insist on a free courtesy car whenever the Defender goes in for warranty work. It does often mean I have to wait a little for a window when one is available, but I'm not putting up with running around chasing defects for free! And believe me, I take it out of the loan car's @rse in fuel and wear and tear ;). I think the last one may not have even made it from the dealership to the servo for its next fill up :cool:.

Yup "x2" , MLR have always provided me a courtesy car for Warranty work. (Even if it is a clapped out Ford Focus :D - although got a nice D3 once)
Good luck with the pooma DB.

[PAT303]

Doesn't knock on start up and tick over....and its not really a knock its a machine gun rattle. (possible detoantion) and only does it as its about to hit boost 2000rpm only in the morning and when its cold and or damp. it happens every morning unless we go out when it has warmed up a bit late morning and the car has had the sun on it.

once it has done it it will not do it for the rest of the day.......

Although the newest thing it has started doing on occasions is it will do it again 50 meters up the road. this has never happened in the past, in the past it used to do it once and if it was bad enough go into limp mode.

What you have described is the identical thing that most D4D owners say.IMHO I think it is the high injector pressure that causes the fuel to burn quicker as it atomizes faster and more completly than earlier engines so that they have a ''harder'' diesel knock.They get the power through getting more punch out of the fuel. Pat

[solmanic]

Just for the record, my "rattle" is still there although it has only happened maybe twice since the EGR was replaced back in March. I am watching it like a hawk now that weather is cooling down. I'll be sending it in for the vacuum pump to be replaced sometime in the next week or so (fortunately I only have some oil seepage, not the explosive failure others have had). I will be asking the dealer to run a diagnostic check to see if any fault codes have been recorded.

I am suspicious the reason it has only happened twice since the repairs is more to do with the fact that I have changed my usual morning driving routine. Since moving house I am closer to the main road, so the vehicle is on the accelerator sooner. Before it used to always happen at the same stop sign in the morning, when coasting to a stop, or at idle. Now I don't have any stops before getting the vehicle up to speed so it's warming up quicker.

My dealer seemed pretty convinced it was the EGR, hence the replacement but I will be keen to know what, if anything, your people find.

[TimNZ]

Doesn't knock on start up and tick over....and its not really a knock its a machine gun rattle. (possible detoantion) and only does it as its about to hit boost 2000rpm only in the morning and when its cold and or damp. it happens every morning unless we go out when it has warmed up a bit late morning and the car has had the sun on it.

once it has done it it will not do it for the rest of the day.......

Although the newest thing it has started doing on occasions is it will do it again 50 meters up the road. this has never happened in the past, in the past it used to do it once and if it was bad enough go into limp mode.

Hi DB, my 110 does exactly the same thing, although its never been bad enough to cause it to go into limp mode. The dealers haven't been able to replicate it, and it hasn't been cold enough for it to happen again this year.

My 110 will usually do it when I change from 2nd to 3rd when I first drive away from home in the morning, I've found that if I'm not carefull with my gear change and have the rev's too low when I change into 3rd and "bump" the rev's up I'ts far more likely to happen.

All the best with the dealers, I've found that if you suggest something, (ie that the egr is at fault), they will look at everything else first! Best just to drop the car off, drink their coffee, and demand a free loan car!

Tim

[Eduardo]

Dullbird,

You are not the only one that have a poor support from the dealers. here in Chile is more less the same.

As a Puma owner for 1 year my Defender has been in the dealers at least 6 to 7 times for guarantee issues. In fact, tomorrow will leave again to repair a issue with the lift tube in the rear crossmember.

At the beggining they were quite reluctant to provide me a courtesy car free of charge, but after the Defender leave us in the middle of nowhere with all the family on a sunday night due a clutch problem I began to be more "aggresive" with the dealer. In fact, during the last 3 guarantee repairs they provide me with a courtesy car free of charge. They pick up the car were I was and they leave me the courtesy car, so I don't loss any time.

I hope that you can receive the same treatment as me, because is not fair that we, the mice labs of the Puma, must paid the design errors of the LR company.

Cheers and good luck.

[maggsie]

I think the time you for you being 'nice' and accepting of the dealer is well and truly over. I would be fuming by now and would be notifying the dealer principal that his dealership is about to become notorious to the rest of Australia for all the wrong reasons. Also let him know that you have contacted your solicitor and that all costs will be borne by the dealership including the time and money previously spent driving back and forth due to their incapacity to sort the problem.

Regards
Maggsie

[tempestv8]

Doesn't knock on start up and tick over....and its not really a knock its a machine gun rattle. (possible detoantion) and only does it as its about to hit boost 2000rpm only in the morning and when its cold and or damp. it happens every morning unless we go out when it has warmed up a bit late morning and the car has had the sun on it.

once it has done it it will not do it for the rest of the day.......

Although the newest thing it has started doing on occasions is it will do it again 50 meters up the road. this has never happened in the past, in the past it used to do it once and if it was bad enough go into limp mode.

Hmm, as previously mentioned by another poster, it does sound like the same sort of symptoms as what Toyota Prado and Hilux D4D owners are experiencing - a harsh engine knocking sound when the engine is driven from stone cold.

There's a long thread on this subject here:

pradopoint.com - Toyota Prado 4x4 Landcruiser Forum • View topic - diesel rattle in D4D Prado (http://www.pradopoint.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=3107)

Sorry to hear about this issue on your PUMA. :(


<edit: added the following>

Interesting to find out that Mitsubishi Pajero TDs are also getting this issue - this is the first time I've come across this:

http://forums.overlander.com.au/viewtopic.php't=60950

The NS Pajero is only a couple of years old, still the new shape. The poster in the link above recorded the knocking rattles from his engine. Is it the same sort of sounds as what you are hearing?

[dullbird]

What you have described is the identical thing that most D4D owners say.IMHO I think it is the high injector pressure that causes the fuel to burn quicker as it atomizes faster and more completly than earlier engines so that they have a ''harder'' diesel knock.They get the power through getting more punch out of the fuel. Pat


Thanks Pat..

It really is something you need to hear its not a harder knock its a differnt rattle noise, doesn't sound like a deisel with just more grunt.
I'm affraid its to hard to explain if it was that easy it wouldn't of taken us nearly a year for the garage to hear it. We have had problems with the pressure in the rail as we have had 2 pressure valves changed out. So you could be on the money there.....but the knock that is common to those type deisels :no2: if it was there all the time when driving through the day I would agree...butits only there for 30secs max

[dullbird]

Hi DB, my 110 does exactly the same thing, although its never been bad enough to cause it to go into limp mode. The dealers haven't been able to replicate it, and it hasn't been cold enough for it to happen again this year.

My 110 will usually do it when I change from 2nd to 3rd when I first drive away from home in the morning, I've found that if I'm not carefull with my gear change and have the rev's too low when I change into 3rd and "bump" the rev's up I'ts far more likely to happen.

All the best with the dealers, I've found that if you suggest something, (ie that the egr is at fault), they will look at everything else first! Best just to drop the car off, drink their coffee, and demand a free loan car!

Tim


Its not good to hear Time but for us its good to hear as we have been pulling our hair out thinking it can't possibly just be us with this problem:)

And yes 2 to 3rd although we are starting to get it happening on a second go once gone from 3rd to 4th and not always straight after the gear change either.. can quite often be after the change and a couple of meters up the road

[dullbird]

Hmm, as previously mentioned by another poster, it does sound like the same sort of symptoms as what Toyota Prado and Hilux D4D owners are experiencing - a harsh engine knocking sound when the engine is driven from stone cold.

There's a long thread on this subject here:

pradopoint.com - Toyota Prado 4x4 Landcruiser Forum &bull; View topic - diesel rattle in D4D Prado (http://www.pradopoint.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=3107)

Sorry to hear about this issue on your PUMA. :(

That my point though it doesn't happen on start up the car ticks over as normal its not until you are 300/400 hundred meters up the road it does it and then it wont do it again! but lets just say for arguments sake thats what it is how do you fix it?

EDIT: I have just read that link...its not the same, the rattle is not there on start up...and I don't see how it can be normal if it send the car into limp mode. I'm not convinced it is the same problem if it is its a derivative of it not the same

[PAT303]

What it needs is to be hooked up to a nanocom system as it is driven first thing so you can actually see and record what is going on when it happens otherwise the dealers are just taking a stab in the dark. Pat

[dmdigital]

Nanocom won't talk to a new Defender, Rovacom FaultMate is supposed to but I'm not sure how well it does.

[dullbird]

What it needs is to be hooked up to a nanocom system as it is driven first thing so you can actually see and record what is going on when it happens otherwise the dealers are just taking a stab in the dark. Pat

well I would like to think that is what the dealers and there equipment is there for:D.

If I'm going to go as far as fault finding it my self which is not possible at this point might as well fix it myself:o....(which is also not possible:D)

[PAT303]

I don't know which one works but it does need to be driven with it connected to work out whats wrong.It is pointless and for me annoying for maitenance people to replace parts willy-nilly in a vain attempt to fix faults. Pat

[dullbird]

I don't know which one works but it does need to be driven with it connected to work out whats wrong.It is pointless and for me annoying for maitenance people to replace parts willy-nilly in a vain attempt to fix faults. Pat


I agree I reckon it would of been cheaper for them to swap the bloody engine out.
Still I don't care about their costs I just want my car fixed.

Part of the problem we think and why the dealer doesn't get it as much as we do at home..although they eventually heard it after a year (up until then it was like trying to prove we weren't lying:mad:) They keep the car garaged over night which means the car sits in a warmer and less damp environment. We asked them to leave it outside as it is more likely to rear its head if its environment is kept as a constant, but they can't leave it out due to insurance purposes:(

[PAT303]

Agree there.It has to be diagnosed when the problem happens and in the same conditions. Pat

[SVX37]

*SIGH*

The Puma is going back to the garage again tomorrow for the engine rattle that they have still not found the fault to:(...

This problem has been chased for nearly 18months now..And its back again funnily enough with the colder weather! Again.

And is getting worse day by day.....Not to mention the added annoyance of pulsing on no throttle slightly down hill...which is also getting worse.

The other day the pulsing came on so much that it was making are second chins noticeably wobble:BigCry: :D

I think the only things that have yet to be looked at on this car is the MAF and the factory fuel mapping. I'm personally going with both. as the two issues we have now I think are separate.

Even more annoying than that is the time and money WE have to dedicate taking this car to the bloody garage..especially as we have to pay for a courtesy car, I just think its wrong! why should we have to keep paying for cars trains etc etc to get us home and back to the garage to pick up because they can't find a fault on our car.. I need to count up how many times the car has been in that garage BUT IT IS A LOT.....and has cost us a lot of money.

You don't buy new cars so you can spend money constantly boring one IMHO:mad:

Hi Dullbird. Sorry to hear of your woes. I hope you got a really great deal on the car when you purchased considering you are paying for a loan car. I'm not sure who you are talking to at the dealership but I suspect you really need to escalate the issue to the highest point of contact and sit down and have a meeting with them. Quite simply, you have passed over your hard earned far too easily. I would not have paid period for the loan car (except on the first occassion). It is their responsibilty to fix it without you being out of pocket and the loan car should be free. I have been very clear with the dealer in this regard and I have never paid for car for warranty issues outside of servicing. You need to be firm and say it with a smile, get them to agree there is an issue that they should find and fix - works for me. Cheers...

[sclarke]

As much as i feel for you, you might need to go the Winging POM treatment and ring ACA......

It has worked for a mate with a toyo once...

[jskerm]

Is there any change in the smoke colour when it happens? Could be an injector tip problem. Only does it at an exact temperature / circumstance and sounds like like a rattly piston? If it is you should notice a change in the colour of smoke while it's happening. (probably a bit hard to notice while driving though)

[dullbird]

Is there any change in the smoke colour when it happens? Could be an injector tip problem. Only does it at an exact temperature / circumstance and sounds like like a rattly piston? If it is you should notice a change in the colour of smoke while it's happening. (probably a bit hard to notice while driving though)

injectors were changed

[Blknight.aus]

ahh but were they?

[dullbird]

I'm guessing they were as we had to take the car back as they were on order and not coming in to the following week..

another person in the uk who also had a water in the fuel problem is also having what he describes as an engine knock problem...
thought what he wrote was intersting

See below

On a more upbeat note, the dealers had a meeting with some people from land rover about why my lr keeps breaking down over the last year or so and they think they have come up with the cause. They think the pump is over pressurising and when the injectors reach critical pressure it is dumping fuel in leading to semi-hydrolock. Just waiting for parts to be delivered.

[PAT303]

The biggest problem seems to be that parts are being replaced left right and center with no knowledge of what is happening.No one seems to know where the problem is and what parts are making a difference.It looks to me like the dealers are just chasing thier tails. Pat

[rrturboD]

I had a similar experience with my inlaws Citroen, local dealer could not put a finger on the problem so I called Citroen Customer Service, with the complete 6 month repair/repair tale etc... they appointed a liaison person, who it seemed got the dealer service people talking with other people who had solved same problem.

Probably worth a polite call to LR Customer Service people, and see what they can do to help. At least it gives LR a chance to earn some brownie points with the client!

[Blknight.aus]

I'm guessing they were as we had to take the car back as they were on order and not coming in to the following week..

another person in the uk who also had a water in the fuel problem is also having what he describes as an engine knock problem...
thought what he wrote was intersting

See below


On a more upbeat note, the dealers had a meeting with some people from land rover about why my lr keeps breaking down over the last year or so and they think they have come up with the cause. They think the pump is over pressurising and when the injectors reach critical pressure it is dumping fuel in leading to semi-hydrolock. Just waiting for parts to be delivered.




not buying that for a second. the pressure involved in opening even an old school injector is well beyond most electric pumps and definately beyond any mechanical lift pump.

what I can buy is this.

1. they fobbed you off till they had a gap in the work schedule to get your vehicle in did some faffery, got a temp fix and called it a day.

2. they did change the injectors but they pooched the install

3. they didnt clean the fuel system out correctly so now you're back at square 1 and need yet another complete fuel system overhaul.


for the injectors to be leakingunder pump pressure enough to cause hydraulicing youd pretty much have to remove the needle from the injector. I might buy that some injectors are dribbling and the residual pressure in the fuel rail is leaking into the pot when the engines off but in that case you wouldnt get a start (because the engine would be hydrauliced) and if you did you'd have a pretty much constant case of diesel knock, the injector condition would worsen, leak more and by now the engine would have done a runaway like the detroit 2 strokes do when they melt the injector nozzle.

[eksjay]

This lack of real support seems to be a sign of the times, not only by LR, but by other makers. I would punish LR by not buying a D3.

I am beginning to wonder what a true off road tourer should be? I was leaning to a Defender as my next NEW car thinking that this beast has been around for ages and therefore would be reliable. There is a lot to love about it - the space, the heavy duty nature of the undercarriage etc, but it is blighted by small component failures and software problems that make it a bad choice.

Although I am from the Jeep camp, Chrysler's new cars also have their share of issues.

Perhaps people looking to go bush touring should use an old Ford Falcon. Even with the 2WD handicap, you know it will go from A to B [that is, B for middle of B-ugger all] on a dry day. I have seen people do it and we once shadowed a family on an outback track for 300km in case they ran into trouble at creek crossings [which were flowing]. No assistance was needed in the end...

At least any bush mechanic can take a look at an old Ford or Holden and identify a mechanical fault and get it back on the [off-] road quickly.

As I have said in previous threads... LR should drop the current new price of the Deefer by about $15K for the inconvenience of its mindless and countless faults.

[dullbird]

not buying that for a second. the pressure involved in opening even an old school injector is well beyond most electric pumps and definately beyond any mechanical lift pump.

what I can buy is this.

1. they fobbed you off till they had a gap in the work schedule to get your vehicle in did some faffery, got a temp fix and called it a day.

2. they did change the injectors but they pooched the install

3. they didnt clean the fuel system out correctly so now you're back at square 1 and need yet another complete fuel system overhaul.


for the injectors to be leakingunder pump pressure enough to cause hydraulicing youd pretty much have to remove the needle from the injector. I might buy that some injectors are dribbling and the residual pressure in the fuel rail is leaking into the pot when the engines off but in that case you wouldnt get a start (because the engine would be hydrauliced) and if you did you'd have a pretty much constant case of diesel knock, the injector condition would worsen, leak more and by now the engine would have done a runaway like the detroit 2 strokes do when they melt the injector nozzle.


Well I dont know dave you tell how I'm supposed to know whether or not they change all these things....yes yes ask for the parts sometimes we pick the car up on closing not always possible! it would be pretty stupid for them not to change them as it would only cost them more money. as they can't really go and change them again, we have had the pump changed twice (or maybe we didn't)
Have to say dave I love your posts your for ever telling the worst cases and that things weren't changed.....how about some good news i have enough negativity involved with this car and land rover at the moment:(

[Chucaro]

I do not know what are the LT way to deal with defective parts under warranty.
With John Deere, VW and Ford I have to send them to the manufacturer for credit and inspection by the quality control so it was impossible to give them to the customer

[dullbird]

I do not know what are the LT way to deal with defective parts under warranty.
With John Deere, VW and Ford I have to send them to the manufacturer for credit and inspection by the quality control so it was impossible to give them to the customer

Yes I think they do have to send them away.....But you can still ask to see them I think
We actually got our fuel filter back yesterday which is what they think has caused all this (we shall see) but thats only because we paid for it and asked for the other one.

If it is the fuel filter then to cause the rattle as much as it has means they have never changed it when they say they did and they also can't of drained it when they did....they tried to blame us off roading the car AGAIN for the blocked filter which is very silly as they were supposed to have drained it 2 months before so if it was blocked then they have missed it. don't see how you can block a filter on tarmac. As we keep telling them the car hasn't offroaded

[PAT303]

I do not know what are the LT way to deal with defective parts under warranty.
With John Deere, VW and Ford I have to send them to the manufacturer for credit and inspection by the quality control so it was impossible to give them to the customer

Thats right,no point replacing parts if they aren't stuffed.I can't see why they don't have a test rig for checking components.Like I said,they are just taking a stab in the dark. Pat

[PAT303]

Fuel filter?????. Pat

[Chucaro]

I do not know if the Puma have a pre-filter with a water trap if not I would fit one.It will protect the main filter and also you will be able to see if there is any water coming from the tank.
There are models with large or small bowl so you will be able to get one that can be fitted on the engine bay.
Cav-Delphi is a good combination and excellent product.
Have a look HERE (http://www.oztion.com.au/vshops/item.aspx?itemid=1984132&tid=) for them

I doubt that the LR dealer is going to fit one for you so go to a diesel shop (to be cover) and get one installed.

Cheers

[rar110]

those filters look great, especially with the plastic bowl. Last time I changed the filter the glass bowl shattered when tightening it up. Wasn't that tight.

[dullbird]

how are they set up those filters....only reason I ask is talking to an independent land rover place he said if those water trap things have like a pre filter type set up he wouldn't fit it....because by putting more filters in the line you can possibly upset the flow by putting more resistance with in the lines.

Now don't flame me that was just his opinion

[JohnR]

Yes they do have a water filter, catcher thingy? I empty mine quite often and I do get a fair bit of water out of it? If your looking for it it is just infront of the rear drivers side wheel and it has two turn buckle knobs that remove the protective shield and then get a glass jar and open the big plastic knobby on the bottom keep going untill you see deisel. It can be quite scary the first time you do it as you get loks of water and lots of crappy **** that looks organic?

Chin up Dullbird, just keep telling yourself its still under warranty and they will fix all these problems at their cost :) I would suggest they are doing their best as someone that runs a workshop I can not EVER see a reason to not fix something just so it comes back again, it just doesn't make sence to do this.

Cheers,

[dullbird]

Yes they do have a water filter, catcher thingy? I empty mine quite often and I do get a fair bit of water out of it? If your looking for it it is just infront of the rear drivers side wheel and it has two turn buckle knobs that remove the protective shield and then get a glass jar and open the big plastic knobby on the bottom keep going untill you see deisel. It can be quite scary the first time you do it as you get loks of water and lots of crappy **** that looks organic?


Chin up Dullbird, just keep telling yourself its still under warranty and they will fix all these problems at their cost :) I would suggest they are doing their best as someone that runs a workshop I can not EVER see a reason to not fix something just so it comes back again, it just doesn't make sence to do this.Cheers,

Thanks John

My only woes......I don't want to go through the hole having to prove it wasn't our fault again!! So I hope people can understand my defensiveness over things. They tried to blame us once before and we almost had a 10grand claim through the insurance....( no joke the assessor was waiting on the other end of the phone for the go ahead)..until I tracked down the all important paper work from the uk,

when someone says to you hey its your fuel filter and you have been off road (when we haven't) of course I'm getting the weapons out as I can only feel from personal experience that again we are being put in the spot light once again for causing the issues that are very much not our fault

[one_iota]

I think that the "fit for purpose" rule might apply here.

Why isn't a vehicle that looks like it belongs in a paddock not able to be driven there ?

Mine has been driven there why can't yours?

[Blknight.aus]

Well I dont know dave you tell how I'm supposed to know whether or not they change all these things....yes yes ask for the parts sometimes we pick the car up on closing not always possible! it would be pretty stupid for them not to change them as it would only cost them more money. as they can't really go and change them again, we have had the pump changed twice (or maybe we didn't)
Have to say dave I love your posts your for ever telling the worst cases and that things weren't changed.....how about some good news i have enough negativity involved with this car and land rover at the moment:(

the good news is Im about to let you in on one of my secrets...... and something thats blindingly obvious.


the obvious, you're on aulro so you have acess to all the info you could ever need as far as anything mechanical goes. Information grants power and ability.

my secret a paint pen.

gather the info on what a likely fault item might be. then put paint pen marks to identify alignment and security of the items. IF I know something is ment to be changed I'll even go to the effort of putting witness marks into it with a center punch

Id love to be able to offer more but Im at the distinct disadvantage of my sum total experience with the engine is less than 120minutes and none of that was doing diagnostics work or spannering so I dont know its nuaces and Im relying on generic principals instead of R/l experience.

end of the day, the pistons are still moving, the cranks still turning so its not dead yet, it just needs a little time at the trauma unit.

you can swap the filter element over for one that has the cav type filter bowl on the bottom I know I just finished replumbing fozzy and now I have 4 filters all that handle water seperation. the common filtration levels are 100,50,30,20,10,5 micron but you can now get 1 micron in that setup.


or you can put a fuel water seperator in as a "before filter" item and they offer no resistance to fuel flow. relying on what is mainly an upside down funnel in a jar the fuel flows over the outside of the funnel cascades down the edge of the jar then turns around and flows up the inside of the funnel. water being heavier than diesel seperates off at the turn and sinks to the bottom of the bowl. Really good ones also have a spiral action so that centrifigual action assists in the seperation.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Can I say too that if dealers invoice manufacturers for new warranty parts from cars all the brands I've been involved in have to send all the parts back, or put them at the dealer and they are audited periodically.

There may be crooked dealers out there but I'm sure they wouldn't last long!

[dmdigital]

Just to point out to those who don't know the Puma very well and to expand on what JohnR and DB posted.

The Puma has a fuel filter on the chassis rail above the front of the driver's side rear wheel. Its protected by a metal shroud that is easily removed and has a central plastic drain cap on the bottom. Very similar in appearance to the Td5 in many ways. The difference though is that it incorporates a water separator and is a 5 micron filter, it also has a domed top with a threaded central shaft that locates and holds it in place. The whole domed portion thus locates in to the top housing on the chassis. There is no visible gasket on the top of the filter and the bottom drain has a small rubber gasket around the shaft of the drain plug.

[Bushie]

The one problem I have with engine knocks is that they are very common in most or if not all new T/D's.Why that is I don't know but the D4D is renowned for it and the three I have had for work vehicles rattled quite badly,one was almost like detonation at start up.Does the engine knock when cold or all the time?. Pat

I'm just about to be rid of my work Hilux - on a cold morning you would swear it was full of marbles, it's noisy enough that people will stare at you as you pass them. Firstly Toyota couldn't find a problem, left it overnight with them, but they still couldn't find a problem (deaf mechanic ??). At the next service they did "an injector flush and reset" (whatever that is). It was supposed to take around 1000km before they settled down, well the noise is still there maybe not quite as bad but still noisy.

Part of the problem is the noise goes fairly quickly when the engine gets a bit of heat (say 3-4km), definitely worse the colder the weather (this weekend up Tamworth way should be good)

The thing is out of the 7 hiluxes we have mine is the only noisy one. (if you discount the squealing clutches)


Martyn

[dullbird]

Ok so Ian text me this morning we still have the engine rattle....surprise surprise. I feel slightly insulted when they thought they had cleared it because of a blocked fuel filter....when even I could of told them there and then that it wouldn't solve the problem the car is now on its third filter hence how I know it wouldn't of been that. But we have to try these things....

That one was at our expense though thats the frustrating thing 160 bux for a filter:(

[Chucaro]

Did you have the chance to read THIS (http://www.landrover-uk.net/forum/showthread.php't=144712) ?

Looks like that in UK LR treat the customers better :(

[Scallops]

Did you have the chance to read THIS (http://www.landrover-uk.net/forum/showthread.php't=144712) ?

Looks like that in UK LR treat the customers better :(

Looks like HansV has possible found a solution - the dealers sound just as bad.

[CraigE]

Geez DB, hope you get it sorted, just read this whole thread. Not good and has put me off a Puma a bit.
It is a shame LRA have become what they have. When we bout the Disco in 97 had no drama with any warranty work at all, but there was nothing like yours. The dealer was excellent as well, it is a shame they have gone out of business (Gold City Land Rover Kalgoorlie). We always had a loan car free and never got charged for fuel even when we had to take one back to Kambalda for the weekend (130). Usually we would get the Demo (Disco / Freelander etc) and if there was no demo they just grabbed a sedan off the lot.
Hope you get it sorted and you should not be out of pocket for warranty stuff.

[Chucaro]

Looks like HansV has possible found a solution - the dealers sound just as bad.

Dave-H and Nidge have the engine replaced. Interesting precedent, I would like to see what will be the responce of LR head office if dullbird write to them.

[dullbird]

landrover australia have contacted us today....so hopefully we can get this sorted.
or at least progressing

[Chucaro]

landrover australia have contacted us today....so hopefully we can get this sorted.
or at least progressing

:BigThumb: keep us informed, I am glad that at the very least they have contact you.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

:BigThumb: keep us informed, I am glad that at the very least they have contact you.

I imagine the deal will contain some type of secrecy clause :o

[SVX37]

Ok so Ian text me this morning we still have the engine rattle....surprise surprise. I feel slightly insulted when they thought they had cleared it because of a blocked fuel filter....when even I could of told them there and then that it wouldn't solve the problem the car is now on its third filter hence how I know it wouldn't of been that. But we have to try these things....

That one was at our expense though thats the frustrating thing 160 bux for a filter:(
If I could be blunt Dullbird, you handed over your hard earned again too easily. Or, at the very least as there solution did not fix the problem, common law states you are entitled to a refund. Just an outsiders view.:)

[dullbird]

I
f I could be blunt Dullbird, you handed over your hard earned again too easily. Or, at the very least as there solution did not fix the problem, common law states you are entitled to a refund. Just an outsiders view.:)

How is that? they told us the filter was blocked....filters are a service item items that we have to pay for..

They showed us fuel with debris in it, are you saying you wouldn't of paid? I don't see how you can not pay in such a situation.

[PAT303]

Load off crap.The fuel filter will not cause the engine to rattle,won't cause it to cough 400 yards down the road or any of the other problems.If the filter was blocked the engine would struggle when ever it's put under load regardless of weather it's hot or cold or 400 yards or 4k's down the road.It sounds to me like a sensor or parameter in the ECU like slightly too early injection is not quite right. Pat

[dullbird]

Load off crap.The fuel filter will not cause the engine to rattle,won't cause it to cough 400 yards down the road or any of the other problems.If the filter was blocked the engine would struggle when ever it's put under load regardless of weather it's hot or cold or 400 yards or 4k's down the road.It sounds to me like a sensor or parameter in the ECU like slightly too early injection is not quite right. Pat


Yes I know Pat your teaching me to suck eggs here....

BUT as said above when someone tells you your filter is blocked and hands you fuel with debris in it how can you argue and not pay regardless of whether it is related to the issue or not!...they were told by land rover to check the filter. They did and they said it was blocked the fact that I don't think it is, is another matter and until I see another puma filter that has been changed to compare it with a pay $400 to have it analysed how can I argue?

[SVX37]

How is that? they told us the filter was blocked....filters are a service item items that we have to pay for..

They showed us fuel with debris in it, are you saying you wouldn't of paid? I don't see how you can not pay in such a situation.

I would have refused to pay as they replaced something which did not resolve the original issue. In your situation, servicable or not, it should have been waived under the circumstances. Under your specific circumstance as 3 have been replaced, that is why I would have refused. Just what I would have done. I don't get angry with the dealers but I certainly ensure I know my rights and what is fair. I would always pay for what I should, don't get me wrong, but I would have only paid up for the new filter once they resolved the main issue.

[CapeLandy]

When I opened the bleed screw on mine I found about 5mm water and a lot of brown mud from a trip we did in the rain on dirt tracks.
So far I don't think it has caused any hassles but I still check now and again and all that comes out is fine mud with some diesel.
I suppose I should be changing the filter though.
I did re-locate the tank breather to at least prevent more water in the fuel.

Rgds
James

[dullbird]

I would have refused to pay as they replaced something which did not resolve the original issue. In your situation, servicable or not, it should have been waived under the circumstances.
Under your specific circumstance as 3 have been replaced, that is why I would have refused. Just what I would have done. I don't get angry with the dealers but I certainly ensure I know my rights and what is fair. I would always pay for what I should, don't get me wrong, but I would have only paid up for the new filter once they resolved the main issue.
2 have been replaced we are now on the third one of the others was replaced under warranty from the water in the fuel.
and we couldn't prove it hadn't resolved it until we tried it..
We still would of had to replace it whether it was related or not to the issue thats the thing I think your missing

[PAT303]

Yes I know Pat your teaching me to suck eggs here....

BUT as said above when someone tells you your filter is blocked and hands you fuel with debris in it how can you argue and not pay regardless of whether it is related to the issue or not!...they were told by land rover to check the filter. They did and they said it was blocked the fact that I don't think it is is another matter and until I see another puma filter that has been changed to compare it with a pay $400 to have it analysed how can I argue?

So it's a new vehicle,is the crap in the filter from when they made it or are you buying crap fuel?.Go back to your first post>the only thing they haven't changed is the MAF and ECU<.They will both cause the problems you have if either or both are a bit iffy. Pat

[dullbird]

So it's a new vehicle,is the crap in the filter from when they made it or are you buying crap fuel?.Go back to your first post>the only thing they haven't changed is the MAF and ECU<.They will both cause the problems you have if either or both are a bit iffy. Pat

no pat I said those things haven't been looked at yet. And yes I know those things could possibly cause it I read other forums too. But if the car is not showing up faults for these items and they have no specific service messages for it I can't see them touching what they think are working parts....I have mentioned it once before. Maybe I need to mention again. Trouble is I don't know how a garage like that works I'm assuming they follow some sort of troubleshooting flow chart when unfamiliar with its workings.

I also don't know whether the car has shown up any codes recently as I haven't asked if it has It may well be that they keep chasing a dead end street a code that actually doesn't lead them anywhere, and may not be directly related.

It isn't the crap from being a new car it was a small amount of sand and grit....as for the fuel station we use BP and try to stick to the same few garages ones with high turn over as recommended by the dealership

[SVX37]

2 have been replaced we are now on the third one of the others was replaced under warranty from the water in the fuel.
and we couldn't prove it hadn't resolved it until we tried it..
We still would of had to replace it whether it was related or not to the issue thats the thing I think your missing

Maybe I am missing that but I am just trying to help you as you say you are handing over all this money all the time for many things including loan cars. The thing you are missing is the money you are handing over.:o My point is do not pay for these unecessary things as under a warranty, most other dealers will give you a loan car.....for free.....just top up the fuel.

[Blknight.aus]

Whats supposed to happen is the vehicle comes in with a complaint, this is usually a symptom. the mechanic identifies the symptom as per the customers complaint and learns how to replicate it if it only occurs under certain circumstances.

they then sit down and have a good long hard think about what could be making the noise and then work out what causes that to make the noise.

they then do some testing to isolate the faulty component and then swap that component.

this can be done because they are supposed to know how and why the engine works and how all the different bits interact.

Heres a comparison. (you do cameras, I know a couple of vague things from people who've tried to correct my abysmal talent of wasting MB's trying to take a decent photo)

I know didly about cameras I point em I squeeze the button the green light comes on I push a little more and the flash goes off and hey I took a picture.

now lets just say that the picture didnt come out right I have no idea why it didnt but I bet that IF I showed you the picture you could look at it and be thinking something along the lines of

"the colours could be all dark because the f stop setting on the camera and the iso speed is set too slow."

"the colours are all dark because you dont have enough light"

"the colours are all dark because the flash timing is out"

"the colours are all dark because the camera is set to "dark and moody photos "

and whatever other things might cause it.

Then you'd ask nicely to see the camera, spend about a minute playing with it and out of all those things that you come up with realise that the "picture style" setting was on "moody gothic emo" instead of "rose coloured glasses"

you'd then give me back the camera and say all fixed enjoy.



NOW unfortunately its not quite that easy with engines (assuming it is as simple as IVe made it with the camera example) as one part thats broken can cause a knock on effect that takes out a second item you fix the first part but because the second part is no longer supporting the first part (which is now a new part) the way that its supposed to and the first part fails again.

or

you could "fix" one item but its not the right item whats been fixed was just something that was a symptom and not the cause so given time the problem recurs.

And just to make it all the more annoying....

they dont do things the same on all engines. sensors move, ranges change and adjustments differ, and sometimes thats between models of the same engine.

Its annoying and on a personal level I hate it when I pooch a diagnosis cause it means I have to spend more time doing something I should have gotten right the first time and less time fixing other problems.

I hate it even more when whats meant to be a professional workshop is manned by one bloke who can tell the difference between a con rod and a cotter pin whose supervising a dozen appie's because the owner can boast a fully staffed workshop while raking back the government subsidies for having the appies. Things get missed and experience goes walkies.

[dullbird]

most other dealers will give you a loan car.....for free.....just top up the fuel.

Most dealers except ours ;) although we have just had our car loan cost squashed by the dealer when we paid for the filter....:D

But hey if anyone that goes to the same dealer as me in Sydney has been given courtesy cars when going in for warranty and service work please speak up as it only strengthens my case.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Can I just say you have my sincere sympath DB. I've been through this type of thing (not with LR) and it's not fun. Best of luck and I hope they sort it. :)

[Chucaro]

Hello DB, I am curious if the fuel tank have been removed, inspected and cleaned.
If the problem with debri in the filter persist I would ask if this job have been done. I assume that if they have done that after the third filter change.
Is the tank metal or plastic? Did you have a look wich type of debri is on the filter?
Cheers

[PAT303]

Dullbird if it only does it first thing on a cold morning it won't show a fault code.To show a fault code means that it has a fault,something is wrong all the time,not just in the morning.I would take it to Ultra tune,leave it overnight and get them to run a MAF test first thing in the morning.We have a very good privately owned and run one here in Kal,I would tell them whats wrong and give them a try. Pat

[Chucaro]

Ultra tune:eek:
They refuse to look a Land Rover in Bundaberg because "it is too complicated and it is very hard to get spares"
And I am not even talk about a Td5 ot a Range Rover, I am talking about series LR's and Tdi
I just wonder if they are mechanics on just spare parts replacement specialist for Ford, Holden, Toyota and Nissan :angel:

[Psimpson7]

Dullbird if it only does it first thing on a cold morning it won't show a fault code.To show a fault code means that it has a fault,something is wrong all the time,not just in the morning.

Thats not strictly true Pat. It should log the code, it just wont be 'current'

[muddymech]

When I opened the bleed screw on mine I found about 5mm water and a lot of brown mud from a trip we did in the rain on dirt tracks.
So far I don't think it has caused any hassles but I still check now and again and all that comes out is fine mud with some diesel.
I suppose I should be changing the filter though.
I did re-locate the tank breather to at least prevent more water in the fuel.

Rgds
James


i have a theroy on this, i think teh sand is forced into teh filter from the top of the draing nut if it is not cleaned when a sample is taken. when i cut my filter open to see if it was blocked (there was a small amount of sand in there) the nut that the drain plug goes into is not sealed so any debris on top of teh drain plug is screwed into the filter, this then gets washed out of the small neck from fuel flowing past the ancour nut, so next time a sample is taken there is sand or grit in it.

not a great design, in my opinion.

ian

[PAT303]

Thats not strictly true Pat. It should log the code, it just wont be 'current'

I know its not strictly true but I've worked on these type of problems before and it's common for the MAF to have oil residue on the element causing rough running and not showing up on the scan.It is a very common problem on engines with a few hours on them.I have a rodeo with the exact same problem as dullbirds puma that will run like a swiss watch after a squirt of contact cleaner.My disco I've just sold was the same,clean the MAF and the difference was clear. Pat

[dullbird]

Dullbird if it only does it first thing on a cold morning it won't show a fault code.To show a fault code means that it has a fault,something is wrong all the time,not just in the morning.I would take it to Ultra tune,leave it overnight and get them to run a MAF test first thing in the morning.We have a very good privately owned and run one here in Kal,I would tell them whats wrong and give them a try. Pat


er it does (not all the imte)and it has.....thats how the pressure relief valve on the common rail has been changed twice. (related code)

you cant tell me it wont log a code if it has been bad enough it has gone into limp mode.

Infact we have even picked up codes on our scanguage...now it might not be directly realted to the problem but this again only strengthens my theroy on the fact that they could be chasing a code down a dead end street...

[dullbird]

I believe the dealer has excepted the cost of the filter...without us asking once we called and told them the problem is still there :).

So I feel much happier that if feel they are being fair with us.

[SVX37]

I believe the dealer has excepted the cost of the filter...without us asking once we called and told them the problem is still there :).

So I feel much happier that if feel they are being fair with us.


Well still not solved the real issue but at least you are not coughing up all your coin now.:)

Cheers,

[PAT303]

Ultra tune:eek:
They refuse to look a Land Rover in Bundaberg because "it is too complicated and it is very hard to get spares"
And I am not even talk about a Td5 ot a Range Rover, I am talking about series LR's and Tdi
I just wonder if they are mechanics on just spare parts replacement specialist for Ford, Holden, Toyota and Nissan :angel:

The local bloke here is very good,he services all the LR's in town as we have no dealer.He has worked on the Defender,disco and now our new L322. Pat

[dullbird]

ok here you are its not great but turn your volume up.....drag the slider to about 45sec the engine rattle starts at around 51sec and finishes around 57

YouTube - MOV00002

[PAT303]

Sounds like diesel knock to me,was it cold?,It sounded like it was trying to give you what you wanted but the injection timing was too early. Pat

[dullbird]

yes it was cold as it always is when it does it..... why do you think it doesn't do it from start up? I personally describe it as a rattle not a knock....because it rattles the whole car when it does it and when your in the car sounds a bit like a machine gun

[dullbird]

Sounds like diesel knock to me,was it cold?,
It sounded like it was trying to give you what you wanted but the injection timing was too early. Pat

surely your timing can't be most mornings only 500 meters away from the house and then be fine....doesn't make sense.

[TimNZ]

Sounds pretty much the same as my car, at the same time too. We have some cold wet mornings coming over here soon, I'll have to start recording my morning drive.

Cheers,

Tim

PS I must say I make strange noises when I'm woken up in the morning, perhaps it's just coming out in sympathy??

[dullbird]

we had another recording too..Ian records every morning now but we really need to do it with a camera...problem with the mobile phone is i think there video and sound recording pick up to much ambient noise.

the idea is all recordings have date so we can prove how much it does it.

[muddymech]

well the dealer covered the cost of the filter replacement, then said i could just pay the insurance excess on the hire car, ouch i messed up there by misunderstanding the cost. the car was $27 or $35 if i was to reduce the excess, damn the $35 was the excess reduction and did not include the car hire, so if they had not covered that it would have been $62 for a single days rental, now thats an expensive way to get to work and home for one day, guess its back to the train and wasteing more of my time getting too and from the dealer.

on another note the dealer is in talks with landrover and has said fault codes were logged and they have been supplied to landrover, first i had heard of it, but asked for the codes and should have them tomorrow. hopefully some one on here will help diciffer them.
ian

[TimNZ]

Next time my one does it I'll scan it straight away, hopefully there is some sort of common fault.

Cheers,

Tim

[Blknight.aus]

I know that sound.......

thats the injection timing wandering and throwing it into diesel knock. (injecting too early and knocking like a petrol engine pings when the spark timing is advanced too far)

the wrx motor can do it too..

theres literally a dozen causes for it and my favorite one is "bad earth connection"

other things that can help it along are

poor connections to
boost pressure sensor
knock sensor

noise on the cam/crank angle sensor line
injector crack pressure set too low
timing gear/chain lash (for mechanically actuated injectors
restriction in the injector pump spill port
fuel cetane rating too low
hot spots in the combustion chamber (usually only on precombustion diesels)


I can quote the chapter and verse on it for the old school mechanical diesels, some of those are best guess for whats the electronic equivalent of a mechanical part. Suggest it to the dealer, see what they think.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

To my untrained ears it sounded like timing too :o

After Dave's excellent response I was going to add solar flare as a possible cause but apparently there isn't much of that (http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2009/01apr_deepsolarminimum.htm) happening either. :(

In all seriousness it sounds like something electrical that changes state as it transitions. ECU's use temperature as a trimming factor in their mapping. I wonder if it's a glitch in the map that happens as the car moves through a temp. Temperature senders aren't perfectly accurate. I wonder if that explains its intermittent nature.

It would be interesting if someone could tap the temperature sensor on one that does it and see if it happens at the same value (temp) each day. If you could prove it was at the same value on one car then you could test it on another. That would be a big find.

A mate of mine designs engine ecu's and control software .. I'll run this past him.

[TimNZ]

Thanks Dave, one of the fault codes I've had appearing in the past has been due to the inlet (boost) pressure out of range. Could be a problem with the MAPT sensor, or like you said a bad earth. Could even be a problem with moisture affecting the MAPT sensor, which would explain why it only happens when the engine is cold.
Hopefully LR will figure it out soon and come up with a fix, (fingers crossed!).

Cheers,

Tim

[TimNZ]

<snip>
It would be interesting if someone could tap the temperature sensor on one that does it and see if it happens at the same value (temp) each day. If you could prove it was at the same value on one car then you could test it on another. That would be a big find. <snip>



I'll keep an eye on my scan gauge, as its permanatly mounted on the steering collum (sp?) displaying the MAP (boost) value, the inlet air temp, and the water temp. Hopefully there is some sort of pattern.

Cheers,

Tim

[muddymech]

i will do the same, i know generally it happens below 20c (air temp) have just started recording temps for evey day it happens.
i suggested fuel leaks (air in system when fuel drains back into tank over night) ecu, mapping all to the dealer but they just pretty much ignore anything i can offer and go down their own path.
have also suggested it more prone to happening on damp mornings.
i know im getting well and truley over it.
ian

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I'll keep an eye on my scan gauge, as its permanatly mounted on the steering collum (sp?) displaying the MAP (boost) value, the inlet air temp, and the water temp. Hopefully there is some sort of pattern.

Cheers,

Tim
Perfect! can't wait to hear.

[dullbird]

ours scanguarge is also premantly set on the dash

ours reads ambient, water, revs and ltrs per k......

Tim if we have a similar problem might be worth setting them the same and comparing figures.

[PAT303]

It would be interesting to plumb in warm-over-exhaust air like many petrol vehicles and see if it still happens.I'm still thinking the ECU is trying to get the motor to do what it wants it to do before it's warmed up and able to deliver,that would cause knocking as the fuel is not burning in a smooth wave but pulses and thats the ''knock'' you hear.Every owner so far has posted that the problem never happens at operating temp. Pat

[Blknight.aus]

sorry guys but its not going to be an individual item that causes it IF its what Im suspecting it is.

the short version is.

its a cumulative error thing. several things have to be slightly wrong at the same time for it to happen. the kicker is no individual thing will be far enough wrong for the ECU to log a fault....

the long, sort of close enough but not technically exactly how it happens version is

think of it as measurements, each sensor or factor represents one measurement

if we define 1 cm to be 1cm +/- .2mm then if we make 5 measurements using 5 ipoints and let the ECU do the maths then

.8+1.1+1.1+1+1=5

1.2+1.2+1.2+1.2+1.2=5

.8+.8+.8+.8+.8=5

so if each one of the factors (represented by one measurement) is out then you get a cumulative error but if you check each sensor/factor one by one then its within spec .

but if you make one overall measurement then you should come up with 5,6, and 4 for the examples above. we can see that the maths isnt right but because the info isnt being flagged as erroneous the ECU can keep working with it.

very roughly thats what the knock sensor (or its equivelent) does for you

all the other sensors give their input, the ecu makes its determination based on the info its got and then if it gets it wrong the knock sensor makes an overall measurement and tells the ECU "thats wrong" and then it makes adjustments as needed.

[solmanic]

...on another note the dealer is in talks with landrover and has said fault codes were logged and they have been supplied to landrover, first i had heard of it, but asked for the codes and should have them tomorrow. hopefully some one on here will help diciffer them.
ian

I'm also very interested to see what fault codes they got. When my dealer informed me that they had found a fault code, that's when they decided to replace the EGR. I wonder if your's will have the same one.

Still not convinced that it has totally fixed mine, but it is certainly better. (refer other Puma rattle thread post regarding my changed morning routine).

[dullbird]

we have had fault codes before when its happen...most of them being realted to fuel pressure valve thingy on the common rail...

[Sleepy]

we have had fault codes before when its happen...most of them being realted to fuel pressure valve thingy on the common rail...

Ahh.......... the "ol fuel pressure thingy on the common rail trick again".




Will you hurry up a get this sorted DB, I want to buy one!:p

[dullbird]

hey if it was up to me I would of had it sorted last year:p unfortunately we have to wait for these mechanics to do it......A mechanic that might I add blamed a bolt missing out of our rear anti roll bar for our pulsing problem :lol2: anyone else that has had the pulsing got a bolt missing? :lol2:...if so thats your fix:p

[Reads90]

Had a mate who had the same problem with a D3. The garage had it more than he did . In the end he wrote to land Rover Uk and faxed it to them and the dealership, the dealership owner and anybody he could think . He did this when it was in the garage saying that he wanted the car fixed by a certain date or a new car or his money back in cash waiting for him.

Land rover gave him a brand new D3 as they could not fix his D3

[muddymech]

looks like its a fuel px problem, still waiting for service rep to get back to me with the codes.
watch this space, will they be able to fix it as from what i can see the details sent to landrover analysis were the same as those sent about one year ago.

ian

[dullbird]

Update:

Ian spoke to the garage and they have informed us that land rover are aware of the problem and are working on a fix. The fix is not due to arrive until July....
The fix apparently is a software upgrade.....which is what we suggested at the begining that it was a leak or possibly the ECU.

So fingers crossed we might be getting somewhere. I'm not upset I can't take the car in until July I'm very happy that we no longer have to take the car in for a pointless journey knowing that they are stabbing around in the dark.....

Here's hoping we solve this problem once and for all.....

[Scallops]

Update:

Ian spoke to the garage and they have informed us that land rover are aware of the problem and are working on a fix. The fix is not due to arrive until July....
The fix apparently is a software upgrade.....which is what we suggested at the begining that it was a leak or possibly the ECU.

So fingers crossed we might be getting somewhere. I'm not upset I can't take the car in until July I'm very happy that we no longer have to take the car in for a pointless journey knowing that they are stabbing around in the dark.....

Here's hoping we solve this problem once and for all.....

Yes - good luck with it. :) I wonder if your effort will result in everyone getting the software "patch" update on their vehicles. :angel:

[PAT303]

It's no doubt as simple as not letting the ECU advance the timing untill normal engine temp is reached. Pat

[dmdigital]

Yes - good luck with it. :) I wonder if your effort will result in everyone getting the software "patch" update on their vehicles. :angel:
Quite possibly, but I suspect that as Lou & Ian's is an early Puma they probably have upgraded the engine map since 2007. Not having the ability to interrogate the map version I guess we won't know. I suspect the reason for the delay is that LR won't actually e-mail out the map file but rather have to issue it as a patch on CD to the dealer.

Be nice to think that it will be rolled out to everyone though.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I also think the fix is a software update away. Did you have any luck working out if the rattle happens at a consistent temperature?

[dullbird]

Quite possibly, but I suspect that as Lou & Ian's is an early Puma they probably have upgraded the engine map since 2007. Not having the ability to interrogate the map version I guess we won't know. I suspect the reason for the delay is that LR won't actually e-mail out the map file but rather have to issue it as a patch on CD to the dealer.

Be nice to think that it will be rolled out to everyone though.

No the delay I believe derek is they haven't made it yet:D
can't imagine Land rover would be mailing out CD's either not when they have there own entire server/database they can upload to for dealer access (GTR) remember there are parts of GTR that is not accessible to the public.

[dmdigital]

Good point.

[rar110]

Went to Austral the other day to drive a Puma to see how different it was. They didn't have one to test drive they said. I was a bit surprised.

They had quite a few 110s in the workshop so must be selling a few.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Went to Austral the other day to drive a Puma to see how different it was. They didn't have one to test drive they said. I was a bit surprised.

They had quite a few 110s in the workshop so must be selling a few.

Either that or they are all in there being fixed. :eek::eek: :o :wasntme:

[muddymech]

Went to Austral the other day to drive a Puma to see how different it was. They didn't have one to test drive they said. I was a bit surprised.

They had quite a few 110s in the workshop so must be selling a few.



trivetts in paramatta got one on the four court may be you can try them
ian

[muddymech]

I also think the fix is a software update away. Did you have any luck working out if the rattle happens at a consistent temperature?



Its not consistent the best rattle seems to come at 15c water temp, thats usually about 2-5 higehr than ambient, figures taken off scan gauge, the rattle will still happen up to 20c water temp.

ian

[Scallops]

trivetts in paramatta got one on the four court may be you can try them
ian

Mmmm - Quite a drive for a fella that lives in Brisbane. ;)

[FenianEel]

Went to Austral the other day to drive a Puma to see how different it was. They didn't have one to test drive they said. I was a bit surprised.

They had quite a few 110s in the workshop so must be selling a few.

They've got a couple there now, blue 5 seater, grey 7 seater, I took it for a spin last week. :DNoice very noice...think I'm going to get me one!

[rar110]

They've got a couple there now, blue 5 seater, grey 7 seater, I took it for a spin last week. :DNoice very noice...think I'm going to get me one!

this was on Tuesday. Maybe I didn't look like someone who wanted a defender.

[muddymech]

Mmmm - Quite a drive for a fella that lives in Brisbane. ;)



opps

[JohnR]

They've got a couple there now, blue 5 seater, grey 7 seater, I took it for a spin last week. :DNoice very noice...think I'm going to get me one!

:angel: Seeing one drive past your house each Saturday hasn't influenced this decision has it??? :D:p

Go for it, join the club, you'll love it!

Cheers,

[FenianEel]

:angel: Seeing one drive past your house each Saturday hasn't influenced this decision has it??? :D:p

Go for it, join the club, you'll love it!

Cheers,

Even the Mrs and the tinlids love yours, part of our Saturday routine, all perving on your Defender:D

[solmanic]

Did it badly this morning. First time the car has been driven on a cold morning for ages so that would explain why we haven't had it happen much since the EGR was replaced in February. I am interested to see if we get the same response about needing a software update from LR as DB/MM.

[Scallops]

Did it badly this morning. First time the car has been driven on a cold morning for ages so that would explain why we haven't had it happen much since the EGR was replaced in February. I am interested to see if we get the same response about needing a software update from LR as DB/MM.

Can you tell me more about this rattle? You see, mine will rattle for perhaps 1-2 seconds after firing when I start it in extreme cold , then run normally. I then give it a few minutes at idle, and drive off gently until it reaches operating temp. I thought all diesel engines will do this type of rattle thing.

Is this what yours is doing?

[dullbird]

I;m guessing from solmanics other posts in the past its similar to what ours does not on start up but when being driven

[solmanic]

Yes, it happens a few minutes after starting. It's a driving-along thing, not necessarily a start-up thing. The usual pattern is as follows:

- Start the car normally, nothing strange.
- Idle in the car port for only about 15-20 sec or so whilst I sort myself out.
- Idle down the driveway - nothing strange.
- Drive off down the street - engine coasting downhill - nothing strange, all smooth.
- Accelerate gently from the bottom of the street, drive without putting much load on the engine for perhaps 400-500m and few turns.
- Then, usually between gear changes, engine revs/rattles of its own accord.
(this morning happened between 2nd & 3rd, then again between 3rd & 4th gears)
- Drives normally from then on.

On the odd occasion when the rattle has occurred whilst in-gear there has been a noticeable loss of power.

In 18 months I have only had the engine light come on once. So far Land Rover's attempts to fix this have included replacing the fuel pressure valve and replacing the EGR.

[dullbird]

solmanic its exactly the same as ours.....

Would just like to say that this morning was the coldest morning we have had yet....ice on the windscreens..

And the defender went into limp mode

[eksjay]

Dullbird, sounds like your Defender's ongoing problems are ... indefensible. I would look into lemon laws.

I would like to extend that comment to most new 4WDs currently in the saleyards no matter what the make. They want to go into limp mode for the slightest possible reason.

A big let down to genuine off-road enthusiasts.

[solmanic]

...I would look into lemon laws.

As far as I know, Australia does not have any "Lemon Laws". Manufacturers are simply obliged to keep fixing problems under warranty as many times as it takes and the only way to get any compensation for lost time & productivity caused by repeatedly having your vehicle off the road is to sue.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Can you tell me more about this rattle? You see, mine will rattle for perhaps 1-2 seconds after firing when I start it in extreme cold , then run normally. I then give it a few minutes at idle, and drive off gently until it reaches operating temp. I thought all diesel engines will do this type of rattle thing.

Is this what yours is doing?

If it's only rattling while the oil light is on I would think that's quite normal.

[one_iota]

Help

I'm struggling with 14 pages and no real facts here.

I had a very brief episode of the chatters a few days ago...cold morning 200 m from home loss of power but no engine light. Mind you I am not losing sleep over it. A rare glitch is just that.

This has happened once before but with engine light and a replaced sensor.

My retorical question is "what is happening?"

What makes the chattering noise?

If the fuel pressure sensor is registering a fault is it because there is too much pressure or too little?

or

Is replacing a sensor like shooting the messenger?

We are dealing with a bit of machinery hereso there must be a cause for the effect. I see no forensic or engineering analysis.

[dullbird]

Help

I'm struggling with 14 pages and no real facts here.


I had a very brief episode of the chatters a few days ago...cold morning 200 m from home loss of power but no engine light. Mind you I am not losing sleep over it. A rare glitch is just that.

This has happened once before but with engine light and a replaced sensor.

My retorical question is "what is happening?"

What makes the chattering noise?

If the fuel pressure sensor is registering a fault is it because there is too much pressure or too little?

or

Is replacing a sensor like shooting the messenger?

We are dealing with a bit of machinery hereso there must be a cause for the effect. I see no forensic or engineering analysis.

I'm sorry Mahn but last time you had the problem or similar problem....you had a sensor changed you said all was fixed!

So is this the same problem you are having or now a different problem which seems to now be related to what we are all having.

A rare glitch :lol2: I wish a few of us could call it that.

You wont always get the engine light with the problem we are having mahn we have only had the engine light 3 times and two of those times we went into limp mode. (baring in mind we have had the problem for well over a year now)

The sooner people start to tell there dealers and keep on at there dealers about this problem the quicker the fix might get here...there is a software update coming for this fix apparently july.....I only wish it had come last year but with only myself complaining about it they were not going to rush about it for one person.

I'm not quite sure how to take what you mean in regards to you have seen no real facts in these 14 pages.

But I will answer as this if we could answer your questions in regards to fuel pressure and sensors then we probably wouldn't have a problem as it would of been fixed a long time ago....

They didn't know what was causing it hence the no facts.

[PAT303]

I would idle it for longer,a couple of minutes and get some heat into it before I drove off.If there was ice on the windscreen give it more time. Pat

[solmanic]

Well I have been onto my dealer about my rattle since a few months after buying the thing. In that time they have never denied that the problem exists, even though they haven't been able to replicate it themselves. They have had fault codes and done the two supposed repairs (fuel pressure valve & EGR) but I am keeping at them about the fact that the problem persists.

Its a tough one since, for me at least, it's not the sort of problem that makes my motoring any less enjoyable. Just the nagging knowledge that something isn't, and never has been totally right with the engine from new.

My plan now is to email and fax the dealer every single time it happens. Even if they can't make it happen when it's at the dealership, they can't really dispute a constant and detailed stream of feedback - all in writing - all with dates, times and conditions. No-one could claim that I was making it up and at least my service manager believes me and assures me that they will keep on it.

But Mahn, you are right. It doesn't make sense that a problem such as this, that at least four people on this forum are experiencing, has not been sorted out by Land Rover. Maybe we should all draft detailed letters to Land Rover (and I mean extremely detailed) and pass them around amongst ourselves so we all can verify how similar they are, then simultaneously email them to customer care. If they get four detailed complaints all at once, from different parts of the country, they might just realise that there is a design problem here that needs to be addressed at a factory level, not just having individual dealerships stabbing in the dark.

...that is if the supposed software fix that DB/MM have been told about doesn't sort it out.

[solmanic]

I would idle it for longer,a couple of minutes and get some heat into it before I drove off.If there was ice on the windscreen give it more time. Pat

Whilst that is good advice, this is a modern vehicle that was cold weather tested in Norway... It should be able to handle a quick cold morning start up in Sydney!

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Whilst that is good advice, this is a modern vehicle that was cold weather tested in Norway... It should be able to handle a quick cold morning start up in Sydney!

Did you take it for a run this morning Solmanic? It should be cold enough for a rattle :eek:

[Scallops]

After just checking BOM site - it was -2.7 degrees in Ipswich this morning when I fired up Grover. I warmed it up for 3 or so minutes, drove off slowly and without load until engine temp came up - no rattles or unusual noises.

I can't understand why some Pumas do this and some don't - especially if the fix is software - that doesn't make sense. :confused:

[Captain_Rightfoot]

After just checking BOM site - it was -2.7 degrees in Ipswich this morning when I fired up Grover. I warmed it up for 3 or so minutes, drove off slowly and without load until engine temp came up - no rattles or unusual noises.

I can't understand why some Pumas do this and some don't - especially if the fix is software - that doesn't make sense. :confused:

I wonder whether its happening during your long warm up period? Due to being at idle you don't notice it?

[Scallops]

I wonder whether its happening during your long warm up period? Due to being at idle you don't notice it?

I know this has all been said before, but as it has come up I will reiterate - According to both Austral and MR Automotive - warming it up in cold weather for 3 or so minutes (as I'm doing) is not a long warm up at all - it's good policy. To quote Jason at MR - "It's the best thing you can do for your engine". I have seen other gurus here say it's not good policy - so why do actual LR mechanics say it is? :confused:

I have made my own decision to keep doing this warm up in the face of this conflicting advise - hey, I'm the one who is not having the issue! ;)

Anyhow - Sometimes I get a chatter that lasts about a second or so just after firing (I'm also told this is normal for a diesel engine) - but, strangely, not this morning.

As a post script (see solmanic's reply below) - having discussed this issue further with solmanic, I am now aware that even if affected vehicles go through "my" warm up procedure it woudn't prevent the issue from happening.

Boy-o-boy - what is going on with these Puma vehicles? It's just abysmal.:(

[solmanic]

Just been around the block, and yes, a little rattle. Nowhere near as bad as yesterday, but still definitely there.

I think the warm-up discussion has been confused somewhat from the original argument that it's just not good practice to let a modern diesel idle for extended periods (like truckies do when they have to keep their heaters/A/C going).

Anyway... now to fire off this morning's report to the dealer.

[solmanic]

Just thought I should share this response to a PM from Scallops as it has further info on my rattle history. I've added some clarifications to my original PM in blue...

In the past, when I've tried warming the vehicle up the rattle still occurs during that time. This has happened maybe twice only and not because I was specifically warming the vehicle up, I just had the vehicle idle a bit longer than usual before driving off. It's actually more unnerving when it occurs at idle as it goes on for longer until you rev the engine. This morning I noticed it did the rattle at about the same time as the temperature needle started to move up from cold (maybe consistent, but it's the first time I have noticed). My (and I'm sure other people's) issue is that warmed-up or not, this has been happening from new in a modern diesel that was supposedly cold weather tested and not harshly treated. I usually only idle along gently after starting figuring this is as good as a static warm up an yet it still rattles?!? Something is definitely not right and Land Rover need to fix it.

Sent my morning bulletin off to the dealer and rang to confirm they got it. My service guy is away until Monday so we'll see what he thinks the next move is.

[one_iota]

:)

Lou,

My post was not meant to belittle or make light of the seriousness of the issue for some here. My use of the word "glitch" when referring to my incident was merely to say that for me the problem so far fortunately is minor and rare. The glitch is similar to others and therefore probably the same cause just not as frequent or as severe.

Our collective frustration stems from the lack of engineering facts here...not as a result of lack of knowledge of the people here but rather Land Rovers rigour or lack of it.

Having said that there seems to be some common and consistant symptoms and as Solmanic says we should be gathering this information and escalating it above the dealers.

[dullbird]

Thanks for the clarificatin Mahn......:)

Like i have said before.....its not good that people are having these problems but for me personally it is, as we no longer have to fight this battle on our own.

It was a very long year trying to prove the rattle even exsisted....but the fact that we no longer even need to worry whether or not it can be created says to me that the issue along with time is obviously getting worse.

Thats why I worry that people do not take a rattle like this in the car seriously.

I'm not saying every time you hear a rattle to panic but if you get a rattle in the same manor as others its not something I personaly feel that anyone should just go oh yeah I'm not worried.

I suppose only time will tell whether this will in tern start damanging components when not fixed, but all I can say is the frequency of it happening has more than increased since the inital problem raised its head 18months ago. To the point where it doesn't have to be cold so much to do it.

yes it happens less frequent when its warm but it has happened.....so the dealers and landrover and even owners to some degree ignoring the problem, I can assure you is not going to make it fix its self and go away.

[sashadidi]

For interest here in New Zealand -5 in the mornings, puma is outside and starts OK everyday
heard of guys on hunting trips -12 etc no problems etc so as such be related to cold? as they start on some vechiles ok and the Transit engine starts in the cold in the UK My friends had several and my relatives have in the real russian winter!!! which is very cold!!!
perhaps software, sensors, water in the diesel? has affected the rail like what is destroying the New v8 landcruiser engines over here and they all need new rails, injectors etc at cost of $30000!!!!
yet the puma is supposed to cope with bad diesel?
must be very annoying but if you can isolate the cause, Ithink it cannot be the cold as such

[dullbird]

i'm not saying its directly related to the cold but it certainly hs a pattern...

And people are having problems with it in the uk. hence why they are now working on a fix...

my car has also had new sensors and pressure relief valves and new injectors..

But I know what you mean

OH and lets not forget the cure all fuel filter :lol2:

[sashadidi]

Maybe these guys might be worth asking?
Ford Transit Forum &bull; View forum - Frequently asked questions!! (http://fordtransit.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=40)

[dullbird]

have been on there before.....problem is what lot of people dont realise expecially when they say "well the uk transit's dont have a problem" is land rover have some of there own designed parts on this engine and tuned it there own way

[PAT303]

I see this whole rattle problem as not a problem.You will not do damage to your engine so stop worrying.I see it as no more than my Tdi not wanting to go at 5am or the disco used to slip it's torque converter until it went a few K's and built up heat or most of my site machines that won't work at all until hot etc.I have one other problem about idleing,listen carefully as I'm only going to say this once YOU ARE NOT GOING TO HURT YOUR ENGINE BECAUSE OF IDLEING.You would need to idle the thing for hours to cause damage so don't start them and drive them,give them a minute to start up.Remember,how does a diesel ignite diesel?,by heat.Cold engine=no heat=inconsistant ignition=rattle rattle.I've never driven a vehicle that drives without an issue on a winter morning. Pat

[dullbird]

i think you will find most people when starting there cars at least with us anyway its not a case of ignition on and back off the drive.....you fuss around doing things for Ian its fillling in his log books etc and noting the mileage and working out the totals and stuff...he then pulls off the drive and idles out our cresent......

What he doesn't do is sit there for 5/8mins warming the car up before he even puts it into gear.

[sashadidi]

have been on there before.....problem is what lot of people dont realise expecially when they say "well the uk transit's dont have a problem" is land rover have some of there own designed parts on this engine and tuned it there own way
Yes of course, pity sometimes they may have run across it before
I will ask my relatives in russia and they run them and see if they had any problems or clues mainly as they have about 6 of them and do many kilometres

[Rugrat]

Just for the record, my "rattle" is still there although it has only happened maybe twice since the EGR was replaced back in March. I am watching it like a hawk now that weather is cooling down. I'll be sending it in for the vacuum pump to be replaced sometime in the next week or so (fortunately I only have some oil seepage, not the explosive failure others have had). I will be asking the dealer to run a diagnostic check to see if any fault codes have been recorded.

I am suspicious the reason it has only happened twice since the repairs is more to do with the fact that I have changed my usual morning driving routine. Since moving house I am closer to the main road, so the vehicle is on the accelerator sooner. Before it used to always happen at the same stop sign in the morning, when coasting to a stop, or at idle. Now I don't have any stops before getting the vehicle up to speed so it's warming up quicker.

My dealer seemed pretty convinced it was the EGR, hence the replacement but I will be keen to know what, if anything, your people find.


Ok the EGR has been in for a little while now, and the temps have been cold and the air damp. I can't say the 'rattle' has re-occured but on 1 occasion it almost did. What i mean by this is that 30 mtrs down the road I 'felt' the engine change - so I dropped out of gear gave it a gentle rev for 30/60 secs and then put it back in gear - no issues. I am not 100% convinced that the EGR is the total solution but so far it seems to be a good start :)

[chumpion]

Hi folks,

The same problem appears to have happened to my brand new Puma yesterday. I took off as per normal, got 300 meters down the road, it spluttered a bit, and went into limp home mode.

I pulled over, turned everything off, then back on, but it was still in limp home mode. So I drove it back home, and called "Rover Assist" (aka. NRMA), and waited a while.

The guy that turned up ummed and arghed, checked the water and oil, and asked if it was a diesel..... He plugged in his little computer, and didn't have any European Diesel models in the system, and said to take it to Land Rover.

I live about 2km's from the dealer, so I popped it round yesterday. Today they have told me it's a fuel leakage problem somewhere near the injectors, but are waiting for Land Rover to confirm the error code (they haven't seen this one before, apparently).

I enquired about a courtesy car, but was told no deal, until they know what it is.

The car is now 5 weeks old....

[solmanic]

It doesn't really sound like the same problem we're all having. Hopefully it is as straightforward as a fuel leakage problem or something else that the error code specifically points them to. At least then it will be a positive fix as opposed to an educated let's try this.

[dullbird]

Sounds like the same problem to me. will be interesting knowing whether it ACTUALLY IS a fuel leakage problem ;)

Ask them what the error code is and post it up on here!

[reeksyofoz]

phew ... glad i bought a TD5 :D

[one_iota]

phew ... glad i bought a TD5 :D

Buying a Land Rover you are not entirely "out of the woods".

Some elsewhere would say "I'm glad I bought a Toyota" :p ;)

But where's the fun in that?

[Chucaro]

Buying a Land Rover you are not entirely "out of the woods".

Some elsewhere would say "I'm glad I bought a Toyota" :p ;)

But where's the fun in that?

Then again if you log in a Toyo forum some would say "I'm glad I bought a Land Rover" :D

[reeksyofoz]

Yeah, my other car's a Triumph so I must have it in for myself :D

[one_iota]

Yeah, my other car's a Triumph so I must have it in for myself :D

:D

Once upon a time my other car was an Alfa...then I saw the error of my ways...haven't learnt much though.

[mightgeta4be]

did a search on google on "common rail diesel rattles" came across a English site who say this
" With the introduction of high pressure diesel common rail injectors a few years ago, we are now experiencing new diesel engine problems due to the failure of the diesel injectors. It has been found that a significant percentage of failures are caused by excessive return flow from the diesel common rail injectors. This back leakage problem within the diesel common rail injectors is causing hard starting, erratic idling and lack of power."
It may appear that you are not alone with the problems you are experiencing with you Puma. Look at some of the other forums and you will see that similar problems are also happening on other common rail diesels.

[justinc]

Buying a Land Rover you are not entirely "out of the woods".

Some elsewhere would say "I'm glad I bought a Toyota" :p ;)

But where's the fun in that?

There is a LC200 getting chassis cracks repaired in town at the moment, some 50 hours warranty work so I'm told....Oh what a feeling!:eek:

JC

[CraigE]

You want to see the dramas my friend has just been through with his Toyo 100 Series 1HZ. Has been overheating for a while after dropping belts and blowing out the radiator and expansion tank, so in steps over the last 6 months
New radiator after inititial overheat, system flush etc. No better.
New aftermarket viscous hub. No better.
Cooling system flushed again. No better.
Toyota Factory viscous hub fitted. No better.
Injector pump overhauled and set to strict factory settings. Now down on power a bit and no better.
Head off and crack tested. No problems found, head like new. No better. Had expected to have to purchase new head.
After getting annoyed he did a search and kept coming up with viscous hub issues and the fact that up to 80% of factory viscous hubs are not infact set up properly from the factory and the plates and holes that move to allow oil flow through correctlly can be 1/2 a turn out. So old factory viscous hub pulled apart, too much oil in and holes not aligning correctlly. Set the plate. Filled with correct amount of oil after reassembling, removed hub from car and installed this one. Pulled one apart just removed and pretty much brand new and found the same.:o
Vehicle now does not overheat.
This has had specialists and general mechanics baffled for months.
Glad I bought a Fender.;)

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Ok, so we've discussed why td5's aren't having this problem. But my question remains. Why aren't other common rail diesels having this problem. Like the same or similar engine in the transit, or the mass of diesel golfs in Australia?

[Scallops]

Ok, so we've discussed why td5's aren't having this problem. But my question remains. Why aren't other common rail diesels having this problem. Like the same or similar engine in the transit, or the mass of diesel golfs in Australia?

As the problem has yet to be diagnosed - it is rather difficult to say why (or even if) this is a problem effecting other CRD engines. ;)

[Chucaro]

Ok, so we've discussed why td5's aren't having this problem. But my question remains. Why aren't other common rail diesels having this problem. Like the same or similar engine in the transit, or the mass of diesel golfs in Australia?

High pressure common rail diesel pump fitted to Peugeot and Citroen applications is failing commonly.

HERE (http://www.canadiandriver.com/2006/05/10/auto-tech-common-rail-diesel-injection-maintenance.htm) is an article explaining why can be problems with this technology

Cheers

[Captain_Rightfoot]

High pressure common rail diesel pump fitted to Peugeot and Citroen applications is failing commonly.

HERE (http://www.canadiandriver.com/2006/05/10/auto-tech-common-rail-diesel-injection-maintenance.htm) is an article explaining why can be problems with this technology

Cheers

Where are they failing? In Australia?

I'm just trying to establish if it's a common problem with all the manufacturers due to fuel in Australia. From what I know manufacturers will usually do durability testing before they bring a type in, particularly where it has certain requirements. IE High sulphur in Aus diesel was always cited as the reason why we got common rail diesels here later than other countries.

If all the manufacturers are having problems then this issue is not likely to be solved any time soon. It's just that this is news to me as I know a few people with diesel golfs and BMW's and I haven't heard anything about this problem.

I noted that the prado is a direct injection diesel (like the TD5), but the landcruiser is a "common rail" diesel. Has anyone heard about landcruisers having this problem? I can't imagine that landcruisers get special filtered fuel on mine sites.

I'm sorry if I'm being tedious but I like to start at the start and work through it. If all manufacturers are having this problem then maybe LR have misjudged it. In that case it's plausible that there won't be a solution from LR.

If it's just LR, and not even transit diesels then clearly it's particular to the defender which gives me hope they will sort it.

[Scallops]

Where are they failing? In Australia?

I'm just trying to establish if it's a common problem with all the manufacturers due to fuel in Australia. From what I know manufacturers will usually do durability testing before they bring a type in, particularly where it has certain requirements. IE High sulphur in Aus diesel was always cited as the reason why we got common rail diesels here later than other countries.

If all the manufacturers are having problems then this issue is not likely to be solved any time soon. It's just that this is news to me as I know a few people with diesel golfs and BMW's and I haven't heard anything about this problem.

I noted that the prado is a direct injection diesel (like the TD5), but the landcruiser is a "common rail" diesel. Has anyone heard about landcruisers having this problem? I can't imagine that landcruisers get special filtered fuel on mine sites.

I'm sorry if I'm being tedious but I like to start at the start and work through it. If all manufacturers are having this problem then maybe LR have misjudged it. In that case it's plausible that there won't be a solution from LR.

If it's just LR, and not even transit diesels then clearly it's particular to the defender which gives me hope they will sort it.

Dullbird, the original poster of this thread, has still not actually received a diagnosis of the problem from Land Rover - they try this, they try that - it hasn't been fixed. Some other owners are having the issue. But many are not (me, for example).

But the problem in answering your question is this, and I repeat - we still don't know the exact issue. For this reason, it is impossible to state why it is or isn't happening in other vehicles makes - all we have is an effect in some vehicles.

[Chucaro]

The reports of faliure in other brands of vehicles is from overseas.
I am not familiar with the filtration system on the Puma. The only what I can say is that after considerable research overseas regarding the filtration for the common rail diesel system a filter of 2 microns is required before the pump/injectors
Going by my experience with John Deere, Ford, Class and Deutz circa 1977/1980 I only can say to you that manufacturers of machinery and vehilces are very relactant to admit faults on their design or that their system can be improved.
If I have a Puma I would fit dual filtration both with water traps.

Cheers

[PAT303]

Ok, so we've discussed why td5's aren't having this problem. But my question remains. Why aren't other common rail diesels having this problem. Like the same or similar engine in the transit, or the mass of diesel golfs in Australia?

They are.The D4D in both 4 and 8 cylinders,the DiD are all knocking.It's not an LR thing.Hot fuel-air into a cold block means uneven burn,it's the stop-start burn that cause the knock.All common rail engines do it but only on cold start up. Pat

[BilboBoggles]

I have a few relatives who work in the Diesel Industry - specifically they are diesel engineers. I've been chatting to them recently because my brand new PUMA's fuel system has been destroyed by water.. Long story...

Their most common source of work at the moment is rebuidling out of warranty CRD's. Toyota tend to fix any issues under warranty at the moment - so that's why you hear little about it. Apparently a fuel issue on those new V8 diesels will empty your wallet of up to $40,000!!!!!! The car's only worth $60k... So I can imagine there will be lots of publicity once Toyota start expiring warranties.

Quite often one bad tank of diesel - or if you are unlucky enough to mis fuel with a bit of petrol, will destroy the high pressure pump. If you drive it till it dies then you will destroy the injectors and the rail. Stop as soon as any surging or rough running issues occur on a CRD, or any warning lights. Many small cheap cars with CRD, are written off when this happens as it's simply not worth fixing them.

I've learnt many things in the last few weeks due to the huge bill I face, Shell Service stations are not Shell. Shell has a great liability policy for water in fuel - but only for the COLES EXPRESS shell servos. All other shell servos are independant and you are screwed if you get bad fuel from them. You need to improve the filtering on a PUMA - the factory filter is worthless. Get RACV insurance - they will cover you in this situation.

The transit has an additional and large sedimenter and filter - and a warning light for water.

A small amount of water through a piezo CRD injector is enough to damage it - and cause a change in the spray pattern..... It may still run, but might cause all sorts of issues in the long run. Water in the rail can cause issues with the fuel pressure regulator and cause it to peg open or leak - this is the cause of the power loss. Once it's over pressured due to water in the rail - the valve seat on the regulator is damaged - and it will never by right after that.

[isuzubob]

Ok, so we've discussed why td5's aren't having this problem. But my question remains. Why aren't other common rail diesels having this problem. Like the same or similar engine in the transit, or the mass of diesel golfs in Australia?

Most VW diesels (up until the very latest Golf VI & Tiguan) use the same unit injector technology as the Td5. Off the top of my head most heavy duty truck engines also use unit injectors, although MAN are the only ones I know that use common rail in a heavy truck (12.4 L, 353 kW/480 hp Euro 4)

Rob W

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Dullbird, the original poster of this thread, has still not actually received a diagnosis of the problem from Land Rover - they try this, they try that - it hasn't been fixed. Some other owners are having the issue. But many are not (me, for example).

But the problem in answering your question is this, and I repeat - we still don't know the exact issue. For this reason, it is impossible to state why it is or isn't happening in other vehicles makes - all we have is an effect in some vehicles.

I'll confess... I thought I was posting in the puma water thread. There are so many puma problem threads I'm getting confused :p :p

Sorry!

I agree DB's problem is certainly different to the water issues. However I see the water issues as a big one!

[PAT303]

I'm still lost on the water bit,I have had my Tdi for 12 years,have driven it in every state and territory including around tassie and have only once got water in my fuel,from a servo 30mins from home!!!.The amount of times I've fueled it from jerry cans or drums or got fuel from strange places I couldn't count so unless it all goes through the motor no worries or I'm just lucky I don't know.I've just finished 7 years of being a mobile plant fitter and I never had water troubles in countless machines,all diesel that I've looked after.It seems to me to be an excuse for stopping customers questions. Pat

[solmanic]

Aren't we getting off-topic here? I thought we had come to some sort of understanding that the problem was cold weather related, maybe fuel delivery related but not necessarily related to the fuel itself. Over the past 18 months I have pulled a fair bit of water out of my filter canister, but surely if fuel was the source of our post-start-up-rattle issues, it would happen all the time? Not just when it's particularly cold.

On the issue of water/muck in fuel. Here is a photo showing the amount of water I pulled out of the filter/separator late last year after a particularly wet drive interstate...
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh191/solmanic42/081101FuelFilterDrain.jpg

That is, in my opinion, a hell of a lot of water... but I am pretty sure none of it is as a result of fuel contamination. My vehicle has never been filled at a remote, outback service station. All fills have been from major chains on highways or in the city - I figure this greatly reduces my risks of bad fuel.

Following this trip I showed this photo to my dealer and pressured them into relocating the fuel tank breather in accordance with the recommendation that was going around. In March this year they did so and it is now clipped up behind the rear wheel arch guard (not in front of it as before). Interestingly the vehicle went through the entire wet summer with the fuel breather still in it's original place but without any post start-up rattles.

I just checked the fuel filter/separator for the first time since the breather was relocated (about three and a half months ago now) and got hardly any water - A small amount of sediment but very little water (not even worth a photo). We have had some spectacularly wet weather here in Brisbane this year so to find this big a difference in the amount of water coming out the filter drain certainly proves to me the fault with the original breather location (unless it is all going through to the engine now :eek:).

Sure, some people may be experiencing similar types of engine behaviour as the result of bad fuel, water being drawn through the system or whatever, but I don't think my problem is related to this. It only occurs in cold weather, and only briefly after start up, and so far only once been bad enough to cause an engine warning light.

I hope this extra info is of some help.

[dullbird]

We are getting off topic in this thread...the water in our fuel did it cause our rattle? maybe but its not due to injectors getting damaged or the pump never working right again....because ours have been changed!! and the rattle is still there.

limp mode again yesterday......lets hope they hurry with this so called fix as the limp modes are getting closer and closer together.

Just a thought to the others have had experienced the problem if not often....

It used to happen to us every now and again...hence why it took us a year to prove it to the dealer. we have now had it in limp mode twice in less than 3 weeks.

So be vigilant just becasue its only happened to you once or twice still consult your dealer as it used to only happen to us once or twice it now happens ALL the time, so is proof that it is only getting worse.

[solmanic]

...So be vigilant just becasue its only happened to you once or twice still consult your dealer as it used to only happen to us once or twice it now happens ALL the time, so is proof that it is only getting worse.

X2
I am very aware of this and hence my insistence on keeping pressure on my dealer for a complete solution. I dread this problem escalating into frequent "limp mode" failures once I am out of warranty.

If someone said to me "this happens to all CRD engines and you just need to warm it up for at least a minute or two", then that's what I would do. But using DB's case as an example where the problem shows signs of increasing and getting more frequent over time, then surely warming up is not a solution to the underlying problem, just a means of avoiding it.

[PAT303]

The D/gas system on my Tdi doesn't feed gas in until the coolant temp is over 45 degree's,Why? because the engine will knock,once again why? because the engine isn't hot enough to give complete combustion,you get detonation instead of burning.Back about a hundred posts I mentioned that the software fix is probably nothing more than the ECU not letting the fueling or timing increase until the temp has reached a point where even combustion is garanteed regardless of throttle position.All of the puma owners have the same trouble,the engine rattle and all of you have it not at start-up but half a mile down the road,right where your getting into traffic and putting your foot down,the ECU doing what it's told and dumping hot fuel into a cold engine. Pat

[slt]

Just one more thought here why this still may be water related. Cooler temperatures will cause water to condense ... with higher temps that water is suspended in air as vapour. From reading this thread, this problems seems to be particular prevalent shortly after a cold start on colder days, ergo ... just my 2c worth.

[solmanic]

I have previously thought whether there could be cold weather condensation in the fuel line downstream from the filter...

[Captain_Rightfoot]

But condensation happens from air I thought... it's when the air can no longer hold the moisture. The only place there should be air is in the tank??

[BilboBoggles]

From talking to Shell technical - apparently water can be held in suspension in diesel and then condenses out in colder weather. The Australian standard for diesel allows for up to 0.05% water - which on 1000l is 500mls.

[PAT303]

Diesel fuel unfortunately is isotopic so it does attract moisture.The reason that it is taking time to fix this problem is because I believe there is more than one reason for it happening.I also believe it is the knock sensor and not the fuel valve that causes the engine to go into limp mode. Pat

[scarry]

Diesel fuel unfortunately is isotopic so it does attract moisture.The reason that it is taking time to fix this problem is because I believe there is more than one reason for it happening.I also believe it is the knock sensor and not the fuel valve that causes the engine to go into limp mode. Pat


I bet if it was a problem with a D3 or RR,it would be well & truly sorted by now.

It appears they (LR) are stalling on the problem.

Hasnt happened on juniors Puma yet & its been pretty cold here

[one_iota]

The cold air/condensation theory is a possibilty. Ian and I discussed this briefly a couple of weeks back. What isn't consistent is the regularity of the occurence. On the two times this has happened to me it was cold and dewey. For me there have been many mornings like that without it happening? For Ian and Lou it is frequent however.

[Lionel]

limp mode again yesterday......lets hope they hurry with this so called fix as the limp modes are getting closer and closer together.



I haven't been following this thread all that closely, as I have a TD5, but surely when your engine goes into limp mode it would log a fault in the ECU.

If so wouldn't the dealer be able to locate the fault. One would also, by now, expect that they would have replaced all likely sensors, as this engine has been acting up virtually since new.

Engines dropping into limp mode are surely a safety issue, apart from anything else.

Cheers,

Lionel

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I haven't been following this thread all that closely, as I have a TD5, but surely when your engine goes into limp mode it would log a fault in the ECU.

If so wouldn't the dealer be able to locate the fault. One would also, by now, expect that they would have replaced all likely sensors, as this engine has been acting up virtually since new.

Engines dropping into limp mode are surely a safety issue, apart from anything else.

Cheers,

Lionel

I'm actually not aware that the td5 has a limp mode? If it does I've never heard of it.

[dullbird]

I haven't been following this thread all that closely, as I have a TD5, but surely when your engine goes into limp mode it would log a fault in the ECU.

If so wouldn't the dealer be able to locate the fault. One would also, by now, expect that they would have replaced all likely sensors, as this engine has been acting up virtually since new.

Engines dropping into limp mode are surely a safety issue, apart from anything else.

Cheers,

Lionel

yes it does log a code and yes they do change the relevant peices that clears the fault but this doesn't fix the core problem that keeps making it do it.....

[Lionel]

I'm actually not aware that the td5 has a limp mode? If it does I've never heard of it.

I wasn't talking about a TD5, I was referring to Dullbird's Puma!

Cheers,

Lionel

[Sleepy]

I'm looking forward to you fixing your problem DB (probably not as much as you) - I am sure they will eventually find the issue as you don't seem to be the only one.
I'm going for a little test drive next week so I'll give them a "hard time" and see what the Melbourne "experts" know.



I'm actually not aware that the td5 has a limp mode? If it does I've never heard of it.

Td5 has Limp Home - mentioned in the owners manual.

[mickygee]

Hi Guys, well today i had my first limp mode event since owning the puma in dec 08. i drove to the coffee shop up the road at about 11.30 am (yes very late waking up this morning) . when i got back in with my coffee i head a loud rattle on acceleration and the engine light came on and power dropped. i turned off the engine immediately and waited a few minutes. turned it back on and still the same so i limped home.
thought i should do some surfing on the problem and saw someone on this forum suggest wiping clean the Damp Sensor (the tube inside the housing on the front right of the engine . push the yellow button release to reveal it). anyway i saw is was somewhat oily. i wiped it and put back together. amazingly, when i restarted the car everything was back to normal. the engine light also switched itself off.
i will update again when i run the car a little longer.

[carjunkieanon]

saw someone on this forum suggest wiping clean the Damp Sensor (the tube inside the housing on the front right of the engine . push the yellow button release to reveal it). anyway i saw is was somewhat oily. i wiped it and put back together. amazingly, when i restarted the car everything was back to normal. the engine light also switched itself off.
i will update again when i run the car a little longer.

Glad you got it working.
Do the new Pumas not work in damp weather? seems foolish for an English car....

[PAT303]

Is the sensor in the air inlet?,Volvo have the same on thier offroad models,if it picks up moisture in the intake it cuts the rev's back so water isn't ingested,as it dries out it allows higher rev's.Cruisers from the 100 series onwoulds also have it but it stops the engine dead and it cannot be restarted until it goes to a dealer for a reboot. Pat

[dullbird]

So an update:

In the month of July with the daily rattles we got two limp modes.
In the month of August not only did we have the daily rattles we had three limp modes
2 of which were in the same morning after having 3 seperate rattles.
That was drive up the road Big rattle engine light pull over turn off the car leave for a minute or so start engine leave it for a moment before driving (doing this brings the car out of limp mode) start to pull out 2nd to third no high rev's another Big engine rattle and again limp mode. again pull over turn the engine off leave for a minute or so start the engine wait before pulling out, pull out and again an even bigger engine rattle and longer but this time no limp mode. :) car continues on its daily routines with out a hiccup.
the third limp mode was two days after.

We call the garage who have been very good with us very recently.....but before even got to tell them about the limp modes we are frequently getting we were asked to organise to bring the car in.....

The car was taken in today to have a new engine fitted...and we were also given a courtesy car without charge while they have it.

So its not all bad doom and gloom.....and hopefully we will be lucky enough to have an engine like some of the others that don't seem to suffer these issues...and we can finally for once and for all get out and really enjoy the car which is what we brought it for:)

[Crackerjack]

Are you legally obliged to go to a dealer for warranty work and servicing while under warranty in Australia, they got rid of that requirement in the UK several years ago, therefore you can take your vehicle wherever you want

[abaddonxi]

Yay, hope it's the outcome you wanted.

[one_iota]

Lou and Ian,

Good to hear that news :D

[Bush65]

...

The car was taken in today to have a new engine fitted...
Great news, though a pity that it has taken so long.

I can't help but think Land Rover must have know for some time what the real problem is - these engines have been in used in large numbers (not only in Land Rovers for enough time now :mad:

I do hope that soon you will enjoy a trouble free Land Rover.

[Shonky]

Congratulations!

About friggin time. :mad:

Lets hope this clears up your issues once and for all! :D

[TimNZ]

That's a great result Ian and Lou!!! Hopefully you can start to enjoy the vehicle you brought now!

Cheers,

Tim

[spudboy]

Lou - am pleased to hear that EVENTUALLY they are doing something about it. Hopefully your hair can start to grow back now.

I'd like to find out what the diagnosis is when they strip the engine (which I presume they will) to find out what was going wrong.

[JamesH]

Great news. Best of luck with the new donk. It's been a long saga for you both. The past is back there and the future is this way etc, but geeze, getting the new car of your dreams shouldn't be like this

[Scallops]

Yeah - good luck with the new engine - it's got to be a good outcome, albeit too long coming. Does the warranty begin over again now?

[dullbird]

Yeah - good luck with the new engine - it's got to be a good outcome, albeit too long coming. Does the warranty begin over again now?

I have a feeling not! I'm pretty sure when new parts are fitted under warranty they take on what warranty period is left I could be wrong on that though.

[Chucaro]

That it is fantastic,congrats, now you have a 2009 Puma :D
I guess that the over 7000 views in this thread have something to do with it :D

[dullbird]

perhaps.....although some people on this form still think there is nothing wrong with my engine!!!

Little do they know!!!!!!

[Scouse]

Are you legally obliged to go to a dealer for warranty work and servicing while under warranty in Australia, they got rid of that requirement in the UK several years ago, therefore you can take your vehicle wherever you wantSo you're saying you don't need to go to a dealer for warranty work in the UK?
Amazing :eek:.

[Scouse]

I'd like to find out what the diagnosis is when they strip the engine (which I presume they will) to find out what was going wrong.The whole engine is returned to the UK. It's up to them what they do with it but the dealer will never know the outcome of the stripdown.

[Sleepy]

Lou - congrats - I hope that solves your drama

There must be some type of warranty - let's say, for example, they did this one day before your warranty expired - and it broke down the next day.....
I would think they would have to provide some sort of assurance.

The sad thing is it sounds like they have no idea what your problem is.... therefore replace the lot. Oh well if it solves your problem.......

With any luck they will fit a gem of a motor and you'll be right for another 150,000 to 200,000 kms.

[Sleepy]

The whole engine is returned to the UK. It's up to them what they do with it but the dealer will never know the outcome of the stripdown.

Watch out for Puma engines on ebay ;)

[dullbird]

Lou - congrats - I hope that solves your drama

There must be some type of warranty -
let's say, for example, they did this one day before your warranty expired - and it broke down the next day.....
I would think they would have to provide some sort of assurance.

The sad thing is it sounds like they have no idea what your problem is.... therefore replace the lot. Oh well if it solves your problem.......

With any luck they will fit a gem of a motor and you'll be right for another 150,000 to 200,000 kms.

you always have the manufactures warranty which is generally 12 months I think...I thought people were asking about land rover warranty

[muddymech]

The whole engine is returned to the UK. It's up to them what they do with it but the dealer will never know the outcome of the stripdown.



pity be interesting to know what they find.
ian

[muddymech]

Are you legally obliged to go to a dealer for warranty work and servicing while under warranty in Australia, they got rid of that requirement in the UK several years ago, therefore you can take your vehicle wherever you want


i belive all warrenty work must be done by the dealer but servicing can be done by any qualified mechanic/garage.
ian

[Blknight.aus]

not so.

servicing can be carried out by any suitabley certified mechanic

warranty work is carried out by any authorised agent (which is typically dealers)

[Psimpson7]

Anyone can service the car as long as they use the correct genuine parts and service to the correct schedule.

My car was serviced by me from 11000 miles and I never had an issue on warranty claims.

[dullbird]

not so.

servicing can be carried out by any suitabley certified mechanic

warranty work is carried out by any authorised agent (which is typically dealers)

Dave I think that is what Ian said:confused:

[dullbird]

Anyone can service the car as long as they use the correct genuine parts and service to the correct schedule.

My car was serviced by me from 11000 miles and I never had an issue on warranty claims.


I have to say I do find this bizarre.....How can they prove that the service was done at that time and you did in fact change the filters and that you even did it correctly if your not a qualify mechanic that is able to stamp the book:confused:

[Psimpson7]

They didnt seem to care. Never asked to see any service record ever, on any occasion it went in! As long as it was under the 60k miles 3 yrs they were happy to have it.

Who's to say somebody couldnt just get a rubber stamp made up claiming to be a garage anyway! not exactlty difficult or hard to do.

$10 and I could be stamping as anybody! Its nonsense!

[dullbird]

They didnt seem to care. Never asked to see any service record ever, on any occasion it went in! As long as it was under the 60k miles 3 yrs they were happy to have it.

Who's to say somebody couldnt just get a rubber stamp made up claiming to be a garage anyway! not exactlty difficult or hard to do.


$10 and I could be stamping as anybody! Its nonsense!

yeah that's true

[Rugrat]

The car was taken in today to have a new engine fitted...and we were also given a courtesy car without charge while they have it.


Glad all is being sorted for you guys - when its hard to prove it makes it doubley difficult.

Update on us:

Since the patch was applied to the ECU - we haven't had any issues - it does run better (takeoff and power) however it sounds like a 'true, clacker diesel' when at lowrevs and cold - reminds me of my 3.0ltr Patrol.

Its back in the dealers at present to have every connector (and from what I can gather thats electrical ones) and sensors cleaned / changed and sealed better. Two day job so while they have it the rear seat will be replaced and the handbrake fixed up...

[andrew e]

How much of the motor is being replaced?

Andy

[Captain_Rightfoot]

How much of the motor is being replaced?

Andy
Yeah... that ocurred to me. Imagine the head scratching if after the new motor the noise is still there. :o

Lets hope that doesn't happen to DB :)

[dullbird]

How much of the motor is being replaced?

Andy

I dont know what they class as the engine....so i'm guessing the the block and electrics but not the ancillarys:confused:

[spudfan]

Regarding Dullbird's problem. It is hard to argue with the vehicle going into limp home mode. This surely suggests that there is something not quite right. Tracing the problem or problems is the issue. I suspect it is down to the ECU and all the decisions it makes as it is being fed by sensors that monitor an awful lot of stuff.Whether it is a faulty ECU, a faulty sensor (or sensors) or a dodgy program is anyone's guess.
In my naievity I thought that if a problem arose, that the brain or the ECU logged this and made the fault known to the dealer by being connected to a diagnostic machine.A mechanic explained it to me by saying that if I went into him and the brake lights were not working he would plug in the vehicle to the diagnostic machine. This would tell him that the lights were not working but it would not tell him why.He would try to trace the fault in the time honoured time consuming way. He also stated that it is possible that a faulty component could be the issue but whether it is truly faulty or just faulty because of a fault in the electronics controlling it, it was hard to say.
Over here a Discovery had it's engine replaced as it was not running right. When it was started up with the new engine the fault was still there. The reason being that the injectors from the original engine were used in the new engine. The problem was caused by a faulty injector. Why the diagnostic machine cannot say this mystifies me.
I hope Dullbird gets the problem sorted. My first port of call would be a new ECU and all that other stuff I do not understand. Who ever heard of a series Land Rover or a Tdi going into limp home mode? Even with all this electronic stuff and fuel monitoring my Puma does less miles to the gallon than the Tdi. Fair enough the emissions may be cleaner but I am using more fuel to cover the same distance. Sometimes I think bureaucracy needs a dose of common sense.

[Crackerjack]

i belive all warrenty work must be done by the dealer but servicing can be done by any qualified mechanic/garage.
ian

I believe you are right there, anyone can service as long as genuine parts used but the dealer would have to handle warranty work, especially in this sort of situation

[dullbird]

I'm pretty sure its a software problem as we have had alsorts changed including injectors.....
So technically no a new engine is not going to fix that...BUT there are cars out there that don't have problems like we have..so possibly something else is also at play..maybe tolerances with in the engine who knows.

all I know is hopefully with this new engine we get trouble free driving....this engine could just as easily raise the problem also but hopefully they will find the fix for it by then if it does. remember I have had this problem for 18months now it went from not being able to prove it happened to the dealer...to limp modes that can come sometimes just days apart.

So despite what some people may think that its a common problem and it wont hurt the car we have living proof that the car has in fact gotten significantly worse and to some degree undrivable.

All we want is a car we car drive...and not have to wait until the afternoon to do so...if that means another engine just so we get that for 2 years while they find a fix so be it......hopefully that wont be the case

[Grumbles]

Quite a saga. Hope the new engine solves all the problem. But are they extending the warranty appropriately too?

[Rugrat]

All we want is a car we car drive...and not have to wait until the afternoon to do so...

x2
so whilst I hope a new donk fixes it for you - I also hope the rest of us with 'this issue' find solutions as well :D Then we can all enjoy the car we bought!!!

[87County]

I'm pretty sure its a software problem as we have had alsorts changed including injectors.....
So technically no a new engine is not going to fix that...BUT there are cars out there that don't have problems like we have..so possibly something else is also at play..maybe tolerances with in the engine who knows.

all I know is hopefully with this new engine we get trouble free driving....this engine could just as easily raise the problem also but hopefully they will find the fix for it by then if it does. remember I have had this problem for 18months now it went from not being able to prove it happened to the dealer...to limp modes that can come sometimes just days apart.

So despite what some people may think that its a common problem and it wont hurt the car we have living proof that the car has in fact gotten significantly worse and to some degree undrivable.

All we want is a car we car drive...and not have to wait until the afternoon to do so...if that means another engine just so we get that for 2 years while they find a fix so be it......hopefully that wont be the case


when do you expect to have it back?

... and is there a "running-in" regime required these days ?

[andrew e]

what car did they give you as a run around? Freeloader 2?

[dullbird]

what car did they give you as a run around? Freeloader 2?

its a PUG...hence why Ian needs a lift to the sydney blokes night out at belangalo. Its quite a nice car actually bloody nippy little thing..

in regards to the question of running in yes you do have to run them in....have to stay under a certain speed for the first 1000k's I think. can't remember now would have to look at the book think its not to exceed a 100 from memory

[Captain_Rightfoot]

All we want is a car we car drive...and not have to wait until the afternoon to do so...if that means another engine just so we get that for 2 years while they find a fix so be it......hopefully that wont be the case

That's what you paid for and my hopes are with you that LR will get that to you. Nothing can compensate for the hassles you have though so fixing it is the least they should do.

If this doesn't fix it you should get your money back or a new one!

[abaddonxi]

I'm pretty sure its a software problem as we have had alsorts changed including injectors.....
<snip>

If so are they replacing ECU as well?

[dullbird]

If so are they replacing ECU as well?

I dont know what they are replacing but I would consider the ECU part of the engine

[Blknight.aus]

Dave I think that is what Ian said:confused:

my bad, I didnt write that up very verbosely, heres the examples.

Im a qualified mechanic, I have a certification number (which is what should be incorporated into the stamp that I'd use to stamp your servicing book as required by your warranty. so thats servicing any qualified mechanic can do it.

If I rang LRA and jumped thorugh all the hoops I could get certified to be a warrany agent for landrover which means I can not only service a landy but I can be an authority on warranty work and carry out such at landrovers expense. But I wouldnt be a dealer.

assuming I owned a car sales yard I could also become a dealer but IF I didnt have any form of workshop then I could be a dealer but not have a warranty authority. I know of one case where for 8 months the local toyota dealer was also the landrover warranty agency. (yes it was in queensland).

As for whats replaced on an engine during a "warranty replaced engine" anything that does not need to come off of the donk to pull it out is usually replaced and in the case of an electronically managed engine the ECU and all its related sensors should also be replaced(ecu, engine and the inital sensors are usually a matched set to start with). Usually this will include a clutch as the flywheel will be new and its bad practice to use a second hand clutch on a new flywheel.

warranty replaced components when fitted retain both the mandatory manufacturing warranty (not covering things like bearings, belts) and whatever is left of the original vehicles warranty whichever is the longer so long as OEM parts are fitted. Its usually possable where the component manufacture warranty exceeds the remaining vehicle warranty to have the vehicles warranty extended to cover the labour charge of the component should it fail outside of vehicle warranty but inside vehicle warranty. Catch is you have to organise this BEFORE the vehicle warranty runs out.

IMHO If I was you I would be speaking to the dealers managment about extending he warranty of your vehicle to cover the new engine for the original warranty period of the whole vehicle (for example if you had a 3yr/100K Km warranty then ask for the engine, clutch and ancillaries to be recovered from current date/kms for 3yrs/100K Km)

[dullbird]

my bad, I didnt write that up very verbosely, heres the examples.

Im a qualified mechanic, I have a certification number (which is what should be incorporated into the stamp that I'd use to stamp your servicing book as required by your warranty. so thats servicing any qualified mechanic can do it.

If I rang LRA and jumped thorugh all the hoops I could get certified to be a warrany agent for landrover which means I can not only service a landy but I can be an authority on warranty work and carry out such at landrovers expense. But I wouldnt be a dealer.

assuming I owned a car sales yard I could also become a dealer but IF I didnt have any form of workshop then I could be a dealer but not have a warranty authority. I know of one case where for 8 months the local toyota dealer was also the landrover warranty agency. (yes it was in queensland).

As for whats replaced on an engine during a "warranty replaced engine" anything that does not need to come off of the donk to pull it out is usually replaced and in the case of an electronically managed engine the ECU and all its related sensors should also be replaced(ecu, engine and the inital sensors are usually a matched set to start with).
Usually this will include a clutch as the flywheel will be new and its bad practice to use a second hand clutch on a new flywheel.

warranty replaced components when fitted retain both the mandatory manufacturing warranty (not covering things like bearings, belts) and whatever is left of the original vehicles warranty whichever is the longer so long as OEM parts are fitted. Its usually possable where the component manufacture warranty exceeds the remaining vehicle warranty to have the vehicles warranty extended to cover the labour charge of the component should it fail outside of vehicle warranty but inside vehicle warranty. Catch is you have to organise this BEFORE the vehicle warranty runs out.


IMHO If I was you I would be speaking to the dealers managment about extending he warranty of your vehicle to cover the new engine for the original warranty period of the whole vehicle (for example if you had a 3yr/100K Km warranty then ask for the engine, clutch and ancillaries to be recovered from current date/kms for 3yrs/100K Km)

Yes it has got a new clutch.....

and we are hoping to be able to extend the warranty of this vehicle, we were hoping it would be offered Ian seems to think it may be something offered close to the end of the warranty...my guess is what you have said we need to approach someone

[Blknight.aus]

Last time I had an extended warrenty deal it was offered up as soon as they had the new parts fitted and were ready to return the vehicle. It was written up so that only the new items fitted were covered beyond the scope of the normal warranty. (they also extended the whole thing by 2 months for the time I didnt have the car)

lets say you have a 3 year warranty, you have the car for a year and get a new motor. under the revised warranty if you blow the diff at 3yrs6mnth from date of purchase then thats not covered but if the crank snaps at 3yrs11months then thats covered.

It'd be a great sign if they offer it up straight off the bat for you.

[dullbird]

So we have got the car back.......... :banana:

VERY PLEASED!!!!! with the service from the centre.........had a long chat with the service manager who we know to be a good bloke but don't deal with him usually on the day to day stuff. Put us very much at ease....and made it a pleasure to be in there.

Must admit I was going in not expecting for it to run smoothly....and came out feeling like a respected and valued customer.

We drove the whole way home with big smiles on our faces.... :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

The car feels good...(in the short journey we did) Ian said the clutch was a little heavier (not much) but gear changes are not clunky.......the first thing we noticed was the engine sounds a lot smoother and a lot deeper..whether this is due to the new patch that has come out or the fact that ours was sounding a lot rougher I don't know as people with the patches are reporting a smoother ride.

We are driving to Melbourne tomorrow so this will be the cars Run IN. Was advised to not just sit it at 100 but to vary speed as much as we can just while running it in.

Just wanted to say a big thank you to Ian at the service centre....makes all these issues feel so insignificant when you get talked to, dealt with and treated fairly.

[Scallops]

That's great dullbird - I'm very happy for you - good luck with it. :)

[Blknight.aus]

your heavier clutch is normal..

as clutches age, get used and wear out the springs in the pressure plate fatigue, dont worry the % of fatigue is calculated in at the time of manufacture.

[dullbird]

we have the revised clutch fitted now as they said all the springs were loose in the old clutch

[Chucaro]

I am happy for you, have a nice and safe trip and keep it up to 95kph.
Now that you are forced to look after the engine (speed) would be nice to keep a record of the fuel used.

[dmdigital]

That's good news Lou!!! You sound much happier. I'm really pleased it's worked out for you guys.

As for running it in, don't exceed 3000rpm and try to keep to no more than 100kph for the first 800km. That's according to the owner's handbook.

[dullbird]

That's good news Lou!!! You sound much happier. I'm really pleased it's worked out for you guys.


As for running it in, don't exceed 3000rpm and try to keep to no more than 100kph for the first 800km. That's according to the owner's handbook.

yes I'm aware of the running in have done it once already...

I was just putting up that we were advised while on a long run not to sit it at one speed but to vary it while running the engine in...don't forget going to Melbourne and back will be its run in.....so its not like we will be doing up and down gear changes like in and around the city.

[Sleepy]

I was always taught, when running in, to not maintain the same engine speed for long periods. (as well as not racing or straining the motor)

Whatever, I am sure you'll treat your renewed defender with the respect it deserves.

Congrats on finally getting a reasonable solution....hope it all goes well.

[Blknight.aus]

we have the revised clutch fitted now as they said all the springs were loose in the old clutch

hmmm


now THATS interesting.....

do you know if they have kept the old stuff or has it already gone back/been disposed of?