How to get 400Nm from RRC

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Originally Posted by td5inside

iPhone is correcting Dougal to Douglas every time! Sorry for that!

Being so easy to kill the smoke, please give that a go and make a map with same power output and no smoke!

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This is exactly my point. An engine is not a computer, you can't tell it to produce power or torque that the hardware cannot support.

You are trying to tune to power outputs the engine and turbo combination cannot support. This is why you are producing smoke and unsafe EGT.
You need to select hardware which can meet the goals, then tune the maps to suit.

You start with a desired torque curve, this determines the boost and intercooling required. Then it's an iterative process to find hardware that meets the goals or modify the goals to meet the hardware.

The tuning world is full of software guys who are very good at code but don't understand the limits of what they are trying to control.

Hello,

And so we get to a point were we are understanding eachoters...There was no need for you to point the finger at me and telling I´m not a responsable tuner.

Duanes remap its not high on smoke, as all other maps I´ve made to Australia are not. Duane has a big intercooler, a boost box (that fools the ECU regarding turbo pressure as you know), a big 2256 VNT turbo and the original MAF. The problem, has I already reported after the first remap I´ve send him, is that he has insufficiente air (still using original airbox with all the restrictive plastic it has) and also turbo is only blowing @ 1,3 bar. I´ve made similar maps in terms of fuel to cars with same goodies wich were not reported to have lots of smoke and high EGT´s and so ever. Even Duane says that once he has optimised turbo boost there is NO smoke at all!!

And then there is the moment/rpm were you want to have lots of power. If you take a standart td5 with stock map from factory and @ 1000rmp in 3rd or 4th gear you put you foot down on throttle you will get smoke aswell, I can guarantee you! Of course you cannot do it in 5th gear because the original map file does not have the power to do it, but you can in a remaped one, but the smoke is gona be there aswell.

The thing is you receive informations from a costumer to make a map. You receive those infos and also some readings from the car, you just dont know the driving habits.! You make a map (a responsable map) and the costumer give that a go and he loves the power and performance. Now try and take that power away from him again :twisted: In this case, to get ride of the smoke @ that lower rpm´s, we will get ride of some of the power aswell, and that will be suitable for the driving habits. And this is all part of making a fully costumized map upon request as the ones we do here!

There are also some other thinks that are important, such as the fuel quality, the airfilter, the hoses, etc, etc and you have to make a map thinking that these are gona be the worst things available on the market!
I´ve showed you a video of my car totally smoke free and in diferente situations- taking off, at full throttle, even jumping :) My car gets the best the market has to offer in everything, oils, filters, coolant, optimised fuel, etc etc etc!!

The way the car is tuned is only part of the process. The way it is driven is the other part. Newer cars show you in the speddo when is the optimised time to change gear, wich is very interesting. Most of them are diesel comon rail cars with VNT turbos and, even tough, the car tells you to change gear always above 1600/1800, sometimes later!

I hope this can ends this discussion here and the topic can get back to its original subject :)

Sorry to the autor for getting this go so off-topic :(

Actually, thanks to the two of you, I just learned a lot about diesels. No wonder there were all those smokey TDis back in the '90s when people fooled around with the fuelling and not much else.

Thanks for that guys. Informative and entertaining.

I think a p76 conversion with efi will be the way to go. Low cost, easiest conversion and not too much stress for the rest of the drive train.

I'm on the road. I'll post a better reply when I've got a real computer out.

Like wise td5inside and Dougal, its been very educational.

I dont mean to question anyones judgement regarding the original post but wouldnt a 4.6 be better than a 4.4? With the 4.4 you need a leyland inletmanifold and to machine the heads. The 4.6 also has a stronger bottom end I believe.

Definitely, as there appear to be a few problems with the old 4.4 blocks, just from reading on here at least. But it would work if it's what somebody had in the shed.

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Originally Posted by signal

Thanks for that guys. Informative and entertaining.

I think a p76 conversion with efi will be the way to go. Low cost, easiest conversion and not too much stress for the rest of the drive train.

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Some important things to realise about the P76 engine.
1. Starter motor register in the block is bigger. You either need a P76 starter or a spacer ring.
2. Crankshaft bolt pattern is bigger. You will need to do some machining to make a manual flywheel fit, a 4 speed auto would be even more work due to the silly adaptor system they run. Spigot bush hole is different too.
3. The P76 block is 20mm taller so this means you need to modify the engine mount brackets and drill and tap the lower bolt holes in the block.
4. You will also need inlet manifold spacers and they aren't exactly common or cheap.
5. P76s are from '73-'74 and will not pass any roadworthy inspection where the tester is aware of emission regs. The latest RRC you'd legally fit one to would be around 1980
6. ACL will soon be unable to supply ANY main bearings for the P76, and they are unique to this engine.

A 4.6 is tons easier to fit, just need to find one cheap...

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Originally Posted by bee utey

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A 4.6 is tons easier to fit, just need to find one cheap...

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x2. The p76 4.4 is a great motor offroad with lots of low down torque, but these days it is so much of an orphan I don't know why anyone would persevere unless they already had one.

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Originally Posted by td5inside

Duanes remap its not high on smoke, as all other maps I´ve made to Australia are not. Duane has a big intercooler, a boost box (that fools the ECU regarding turbo pressure as you know), a big 2256 VNT turbo and the original MAF. The problem, has I already reported after the first remap I´ve send him, is that he has insufficiente air (still using original airbox with all the restrictive plastic it has) and also turbo is only blowing @ 1,3 bar. I´ve made similar maps in terms of fuel to cars with same goodies wich were not reported to have lots of smoke and high EGT´s and so ever. Even Duane says that once he has optimised turbo boost there is NO smoke at all!!

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Insufficient air is bollocks. These engines are MAF equipped, they know exactly how much air is coming in, the only reason they smoke is when being told to overfuel.

There are three things that directly control the amount of fuel being injected.

1. Throttle map. These set injection quantity based on rpm and throttle position. It is trivial to reduce maximum injection quantities and different rpm.
2. Torque limiters. These limit the maximum injection quantity based on rpm. They take precendence over throttle inputs. It is again trivial to set these to limit smoke.
3. Air/Fuel calibration tables (aka smoke map). This one does the final moderation and limits injection quantity based on measured airflow. If you have smoke, then the above two are set to smoke and the either the third is also set to smoke or the MAF is buggered.

Why are you only using 1.3 bar on a 2256V? I have this exact compressor built into a turbo for my work car, they are tested reliable to over 26psi (1.8 bar).
1.3 bar is roughly stock boost, with only stock boost you can only gain a fraction by richening the mix.

Just because an owner doesn't report smoke, doesn't mean it's in any way clean. It just means they don't notice or they don't care.
On other forums a car owner has sworn their car doesn't smoke, another member posted a picture of her car with the back covered in exhaust smoke.

The absence of smoke also does not mean EGT is safe. Good injection systems can still burn clean with piston-melting EGT level. Past 800C and clean is possible.

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Originally Posted by td5inside

And then there is the moment/rpm were you want to have lots of power. If you take a standart td5 with stock map from factory and @ 1000rmp in 3rd or 4th gear you put you foot down on throttle you will get smoke aswell, I can guarantee you! Of course you cannot do it in 5th gear because the original map file does not have the power to do it, but you can in a remaped one, but the smoke is gona be there aswell.

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I haven't been able to try this on a stock TD5, but I have not seen any stock vehicle ever compete with the smoke in your videos. They are not comparable.

Knowing the A/F ratio in a tune is not difficult. Check the MAF values against known engine displacement and boost, then divide MAF values by injection values.

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Originally Posted by td5inside

The thing is you receive informations from a costumer to make a map. You receive those infos and also some readings from the car, you just dont know the driving habits.! You make a map (a responsable map) and the costumer give that a go and he loves the power and performance. Now try and take that power away from him again :twisted: In this case, to get ride of the smoke @ that lower rpm´s, we will get ride of some of the power aswell, and that will be suitable for the driving habits. And this is all part of making a fully costumized map upon request as the ones we do here!

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If a tune was "responsible", then there is no smoke to get rid of.

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Originally Posted by td5inside

I´ve showed you a video of my car totally smoke free and in diferente situations- taking off, at full throttle, even jumping :)

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Those videos were not enough to tell anything about the tune.