Thread: iMac 20" Vs. Clone.

Originally Posted by dm_td5

You left out one key issue in your abridged description.

If you want a computer that works out of the box, doesn't need a lot of tweaking, fiddling, understanding what's going on. You should have a Mac.

If you want one that's going to cost a lot less than a Mac, require a good understanding to get setup and then after that not waste a lot of your time, get a PC and a variant of Linux.

Personally I hate tinkering with computers now days. That's really the only reason I got a Mac over a Linux box. But what made me switch was Vista because as I mentioned I hate tinkering.

Yup. IT guys tend to forget that most 'normal' people have no idea about how to do things or why things may not be working, and nor do they want to which is why IT guys get work. So when you're at home and you've got photos and video to turn into a DVD for the family you don't want to be fluffing about with techy stuff to make it happen. You just want to put the photos in and let the computer do its thing.

On the other hand, if you are one of those that do like to tinker, then the Mac is a great playground too. It gives you the best of all aspects of personal computing.

That's life. Deal with it and move on.

An argument that is brought into play when the position is weak and/or untenable. The dominance of the position it represents suggests superior knowledge and understanding and you are supposed to bow out gracefully. It is intended to shut down the conversation.

That's your life, not mine. I do not and will not live your life. I will move on when I choose to move on, and not when you tell me to. As I have said, my position on what platform is used is, these days, largely a choice of personal preference and even within corporates there is room for alternative OSs if the IT department can shift out of its myopic view of what constitutes effective support vs cost. Nearly all the IT consulting work I do is with large corporates and government agencies and rarely do I see anything in them other than Windows - that doesn't stop me from using Macs or FreeBSD because I choose to.

In more enlightened organisations I have witnessed, the IT department allows users to 'buy' various levels of support so that if the user chooses to, they can have their own OS (Linux too if they want) and get access to the corporate network and applications. There has been no appreciable increase in cost to the IT department but users are happier and they get to use the programs that are written for their platform. Peer support, which exists despite many IT heads accepting it as a valid form of support, can play an equally vital role if clubs of users can be established. So too with Internet based forums.

So what's all this mean? Life is what you make of it, and it doesn't have to be in a Microsoft world. Move into the world that best fits your view of it, be that proprietary or free, or some range in between. Big iron or PC. Make your choice based on what you want or need, and don't listen to those that say there is only one option.

Modern computing is moving towards giving the user more options, not fewer. That is why Macs allow you to run various OSs on the same hardware. To me that's life and with those choices I can move on with it. IT departments that continue to force users into a narrow band of capability are facing ever greater pressure from users to change their philosophical viewpoint.

Alan

Phew, that feels better

Originally Posted by PaulP38a

<SNIP>

• If you want your computing time to be a religous experience and fancy yourself as a rebellious, avant-garde type who won't be told by "the Man" what is good for you - unless that man is Steve Jobs - then you've probably already got a Mac and I'm wasting my breath/typing.
• If you just hate Microsoft and everything it stands for, then get the latest version of Ubuntu and OpenOffice, which will run on almost any PC made in the last 5 years. Best of all, it costs nothing.
• However, if you want to have the widest range of hardware, software and support options available you're pretty well stuck with using a PC and Windows.

That's life. Deal with it and move on.
Cheers, Paul.

Hmmm... are you seriously telling me that in your opinion a PC with VISTA on requires the same or less maintenance and involves less pain than any apple (maybe excluding the air) with OS X installed? Consider someone who doesn't work in IT and has to deal with firewalls, spyware, and viruses. Consider the Windows magic slowdown. Are you serious?

I had a fright tonight. My brother who has a new apple said it wasn't working with his printer blah blah... I thought oh no a blot on the mac record? I told him to replace the cable. He didn't think that was the problem. So, I went over there and replaced the cable, which was the problem. The Mac retains it's good record.

Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

Hmmm... are you seriously telling me that in your opinion a PC with VISTA on requires the same or less maintenance and involves less pain than any apple (maybe excluding the air) with OS X installed? Consider someone who doesn't work in IT and has to deal with firewalls, spyware, and viruses. Consider the Windows magic slowdown. Are you serious?

Nah! What he's saying is if people went to Mac he'd be out of a job

And the more mac users there is, the more software and product available...

They forget that there are Mac "Boxes" too, which can take all the high end cards in them....

BTW - For our little "Steam" addict....
I just loaded Steam to see how the Mac would go...
My original MBP 17" runs Steam like a champ!!!!

Damn... Repost sorry... Server error

...

You gotta love it when someone takes the bait

Originally Posted by disco2hse

Yup. IT guys tend to forget that most 'normal' people have no idea about how to do things or why things may not be working, and nor do they want to which is why IT guys get work.

I see your point, but this statement is as arrogant as any I have made in previous posts that you have criticised me for. What is a "normal" person?
In the quote above you could easily substitute the word "IT" for other fields such as "auto mechanical", "legal", "landscape gardening", "electrical" or "plumbing".

Originally Posted by disco2hse

So when you're at home and you've got photos and video to turn into a DVD for the family you don't want to be fluffing about with techy stuff to make it happen. You just want to put the photos in and let the computer do its thing.

Couldn't agree more - I have a wife and two kids who expect this happen (on Mac and PC) - and that is the happy family picture that vendors have been marketing for years. But when that Mac or PC doesn't live up to the hype set by the vendor, you either read the manual or talk to someone who has. If you weren't too sure about what you were doing before you started, hopefully you read the manual first.
When you get in to a new car, most things will be familiar because you've driven cars for years and had a fair bit of instruction before being let loose on one by yourself. If the fuel filler catch is in a different position, or that reverse gear notch is not where you expect it to be, do you blame the car or do you make an effort to find out for yourself? i.e. read the manual, ask someone.

Originally Posted by disco2hse

On the other hand, if you are one of those that do like to tinker, then the Mac is a great playground too. It gives you the best of all aspects of personal computing.

Spoken like a true zealot. I don't believe there is anything useful (ouch, that's too subjective) that a Mac can do these days that can't be achieved by a "tinkerer" on a Windows Vista or Linux PC, although I am happy to be corrected on this.

Originally Posted by disco2hse

An argument that is brought into play when the position is weak and/or untenable. The dominance of the position it represents suggests superior knowledge and understanding and you are supposed to bow out gracefully. It is intended to shut down the conversation.

Not at all - it was just a closing statement that left itself open to interpretation by the reader...and you did. However, your description is an excellent fit for IT practitioners and vendors who use/abuse the term "best practise"

Originally Posted by disco2hse

That's your life, not mine. I do not and will not live your life. I will move on when I choose to move on, and not when you tell me to. As I have said, my position on what platform is used is, these days, largely a choice of personal preference and even within corporates there is room for alternative OSs if the IT department can shift out of its myopic view of what constitutes effective support vs cost. Nearly all the IT consulting work I do is with large corporates and government agencies and rarely do I see anything in them other than Windows - that doesn't stop me from using Macs or FreeBSD because I choose to.

Woah! Sounds like you have a big chip on your shoulder - are you recently out of uni, or work for Apple by any chance? Not the sort of response I'd expect from an IT Consultant unless they were pushing a bandwagon.
All of the consulting I do these days is with clients that run Windows as their main desktop environment. They still have pockets of "special use" machines that fill a niche requirement running flavours of UNIX or Mac OS'. I don't seek out clients that only run Windows, that is just the commercial reality of most large corporates and government agencies.
10 years ago, my main client ran 10,000 Macs across the country but found they were too limited in options for enterprise management and line-of-business applications. They initiated a project to eventually replace th Macs with PCs.
The reason your clients use Windows is not because Microsoft has them by the short and curlies or because the Whole of Govt Procurement Guidelines prohibit Macs or Open Source, it is because that is where there is the most choice in terms of hardware, software and services. Of course, this is changing as Open Source products become more widely adopted and the major vendors throw their weight behind them. With Apple now adopting the Intel platform, it is quite possible that Macs will make a comeback too. I hope they do. Nothing like competition to make the other players (i.e. Microsoft) lift their game.

Like you, I also run flavours of Linux, Mac and Windows. I'm a tinkerer and like to experiment with the capabilities of the operating system and applications. Some of my most useful technical tools run on Linux, but almost all of my day-to-day productivity apps run on Windows.
Unlike you, I'm not religious about it. I'll happily use OpenOffice instead of Word, PowerPoint or Excel, and Firefox instead of IE but it's no big deal really. The computer and it's apps are just a tool to get work done with.

Originally Posted by disco2hse

In more enlightened organisations I have witnessed, the IT department allows users to 'buy' various levels of support so that if the user chooses to, they can have their own OS (Linux too if they want) and get access to the corporate network and applications. There has been no appreciable increase in cost to the IT department but users are happier and they get to use the programs that are written for their platform. Peer support, which exists despite many IT heads accepting it as a valid form of support, can play an equally vital role if clubs of users can be established. So too with Internet based forums.

You know, I don't like the term "users" for people who use computer systems, in much the same way that when I was an IT engineer and junior consultant many years ago that project managers referred to me as a "resource". Seems a bit degrading when the term "person" will suffice.
I have consulted to and worked for a few of these "enlightened" organisations. It works in technical organisations where the employees have binding responsibility for the IP and legal compliance of the organisation, and there is usually a fail-back standard desktop environment that can be accessed via remote desktop if/when the employee breaks his/her own machine. This model is also widely adopted in academic institutions.
As the former IT Director of a government organisation, I encouraged peer support and feedback from my internal clients. However, the integrity and security of the data that I was custodian of was a matter of greater importance than giving people the choice of what platform to use. There is no way I could ever justify the capital outlay or return on investment for providing multiple platform support to approx 1,000 end-user devices.
We had a few Macs in the environment but they were not permitted to be connected to the production network.
Financial institutions and government agencies tend to be the most pedantic with respect to locked-down computing environments, and for good reason. Wouldn't you like to think that the institution that holds your life savings, or all your personal medical/welfare/tax records has a tightly controlled data management and IT security regime in place?

Originally Posted by disco2hse

So what's all this mean? Life is what you make of it, and it doesn't have to be in a Microsoft world. Move into the world that best fits your view of it, be that proprietary or free, or some range in between. Big iron or PC. Make your choice based on what you want or need, and don't listen to those that say there is only one option.

Agreed - there are always options, especially for home users... which is what this thread was about.
Somehow we strayed in to the realms of the corporate IT environment, which is nothing at all like the freedom of personal use.

Originally Posted by disco2hse

IT departments that continue to force users into a narrow band of capability are facing ever greater pressure from users to change their philosophical viewpoint.

Most business decision makers in organisations of more than 30 people would tend to think of this as fiscal responsibility not philosophy.

Originally Posted by disco2hse

Phew, that feels better

Crickey, feels like I took the bait right back

No hard feelings Alan. I respect your opinions and wish you all the best in your IT consulting.

Cheers, Paul.

Originally Posted by Tombie2

Nah! What he's saying is if people went to Mac he'd be out of a job

And the more mac users there is, the more software and product available...

They forget that there are Mac "Boxes" too, which can take all the high end cards in them....

I'd only be worried about that if I was a Windows/PC engineer... and if I only knew Windows/PCs then I'd be worried about my job anyway.

If my clients went to a single platfrom (Mac or PC, server and client) there might be less demand for IT architecture, integration and project managent, but that is highly unlikely given corporate and government investment in "legacy" IT systems.

Nothing wrong with Macs (I have one too) as long as you understand that you are in the minority.

Then we drive Land Rovers, so we're used to that anyway

Cheers, Paul.

Originally Posted by PaulP38a

I'd only be worried about that if I was a Windows/PC engineer... and if I only knew Windows/PCs then I'd be worried about my job anyway.

If my clients went to a single platfrom (Mac or PC, server and client) there might be less demand for IT architecture, integration and project managent, but that is highly unlikely given corporate and government investment in "legacy" IT systems.

Nothing wrong with Macs (I have one too) as long as you understand that you are in the minority.

Then we drive Land Rovers, so we're used to that anyway

Cheers, Paul.

Cool!!!!

On a similar note... Where I work (OneSteel) used to be a VMS / UNIX / Apple company...

Every desktop system was Mac (most of our systems are telnet client into the server clusters)...

And one day the Gen Manager was replaced by a new guy...

He didnt like Macs...

Suffice to say a large $$$ sum was paid out and all the Macs disappeared within months!!!!

Were now on PCs...

Although I do have an old VAX system sitting here running our Mill Control Systems that I use daily... Stable bugger that...