Thread: V8 fuelling and sparking but no start. HELP PLEASE

Originally Posted by bee utey

You need a RAVE disc...

Bee utey, I have all rave discs , problem is my Electrical wiring diagram reading is the pits.
update
I just installed a spare ECU, and still no difference.
just about to reinstall my old XYZ switch as this is what I did when I fitted the new trans before starting, to eliminate that as a cause.

I'm going to check fuse 14 also.

One thing I haven't done is try another battery, it might be enough to crank but no reserve for the ECU and like
regards, Mario

Well I checked fuse 14 20 amp and there is 12.5 volts.
Fuse 24 has no voltage.

also reinstalled the old Transmission XZY switch and no difference, so I'll eliminate that one.

A new factor to the equation is I plugged nanocom in and got this code.
P1668 Anti Theft Alarm Serial link Drive Cycle A , signal too high.

It's also funny that Hawkeye showed some codes that nanocom missed.
those codes related to me disconnecting some harness plugs to the transmission.
So it looks like I'm going to have to investigate Bee utey's info re fuse 24.
I wonder if the anti theft code has anything to do with it?
Oh the joys!.
Damn electronics, none of these probs in the old carby days. Starting to loose patience.

Re the code P1668, I googled up this,
Applies to US discos


Failure to Start - "Passive Immobilization" Enabled

AFFECTED VEHICLE RANGE:

Discovery Series II (LT) All

SITUATION:

VEHICLE MAY NOT CRANK AFTER BEING UNLOCKED (BUT MINE DOES CRANK )

The customer may complain that occasionally the vehicle will not crank. This may be because the Non-NAS Passive Immobilization feature has been accidentally turned on in production or during repair operations.

If Passive Immobilization is enabled, the vehicle will immobilize itself if the ignition key is not turned to position "II" or the engine is not started within 30 seconds of unlocking the vehicle. With the ignition key in position "II", the vehicle will show that it is in the immobilized state by illuminating the alarm LED continuously. The engine will not crank if the ignition key is turned in an attempt to start the engine.

RESOLUTION:

REPLACE BCU WITH NEW OR RE-PROGRAMMED UNIT

To turn off the Passive Immobilization feature, replace the BCU with a new unit ensuring that the proper installation procedure is followed. Alternatively, after contacting the LRNA HelpLine send the original BCU to Land Rover to be re-programmed and install the re-programmed unit ensuring that the proper installation procedure is followed.

PARTS INFORMATION:

YWC000310 BCU

WARRANTY CLAIMS:

86.55.75 Time 0.50 hrs.
Install new or re-programmed BCU

FAULT CODE: A

Normal warranty policy and procedures apply

REPAIR PROCEDURE

SYMPTOM VERIFICATION OF ACTIVATED PASSIVE IMMOBILIZATION

1. Unlock the vehicle and wait one minute.

2. With the ignition off, verify that the anti-theft alarm LED in the instrument pack blinks slowly.

3. Turn the ignition key to position "II" and verify the alarm LED is on continuously. This indicates an immobilized condition.

4. Check that Passive Immobilization is on by attempting to start the vehicle with the LED on continuously.

5. If the vehicle does not start, confirm that Passive Immobilization is turned on as follows:

^ Turn off ignition and remove the key.

^ Press the unlock button on the plip once.

^ Attempt to restart the vehicle within 30 seconds.

^ If the vehicle starts normally, Passive Immobilization is activated. The BCU must be replaced or reprogrammed by Land Rover after contacting the LRNA HelpLine.



TESTBOOK VERIFICATION OF ACTIVATED "PASSIVE IMMOBILIZATION"

NOTE: The Bosch Engine Management ECU may flag a P1668 Fault Code if an attempt to start the vehicle is made when Passive Immobilization is activated. This will only be evident by interrogating the Bosch Engine Management ECU with TestBook. The fault will not turn on the Check Engine (MIL) lamp.

1. Using TestBook, verify Passive Immobilization is enabled as follows:

^ Select Vehicle Configuration.

^ Select Dealer Configuration.

^ Select "CLASS" (Corporate Locking and Alarm Security Strategy).

^ Note the status of Passive Immobilization.


2. If Passive Immobilization shows "Disabled" the setting is correct for North American vehicles and the no-start/no-crank condition has another cause.

3. If Passive Immobilization shows "Enabled" the BCU must be replaced to provide the customer with the standard North American configuration. Two options are available:

^ Return BCU to Land Rover for reprogramming and install the reprogrammed BCU with proper menu selections.

^ Install a new BCU from parts inventory and install with proper menu selections as outlined in TIB 86/03/01/NAS.


4. Call the Land Rover Technical HelpLine for approval before you replace a BCU or ship a BCU to Land Rover.


OPTION 1: RE-PROGRAM EXISTING BCU TO TURN OFF PASSIVE IMMOBILIZATION

NOTE: Because the "Passive Immobilization" is a security-related feature, there is no way to turn off this feature with TestBook. Land Rover has the ability to perform this function using special software. Land Rover will FedEx the BCU back to the retailer on the day received.

1. Verify that the ignition switch is in the OFF position.

CAUTION: The negative cable removal must be performed within 30 seconds of pressing the plip button.

2. Perform the following steps within 30 seconds:

^ Press the unlock button on the plip.

^ Immediately remove the negative battery cable from the battery.


3. Refer to the Workshop Manual and remove the BCU from the vehicle.

4. Send the BCU via FedEx to Land Rover North America Inc. for reprogramming and return.

5. Refer to the Workshop Manual and install the re-programmed BCU.


OPTION 2: INSTALL NEW BCU TO TURN OFF PASSIVE IMMOBILIZATION

CAUTION: When installing a new BCU, the default is "Passive Armed." Failing to follow the BCU installation/replacement process correctly could cause Passive Immobilization to be turned on again.

1. Refer to the Workshop Manual and install a new BCU.

2. Refer to TIB 86/03/01/NAS and follow the installation/replacement procedure carefully to ensure that the BCU is installed correctly and that "Passive" is turned OFF.

Originally Posted by bee utey

Oops, second fuse, the one after the ignition relay is fuse 14, 20A. This is the fuse for the ignition coils and shoud be live with the ignition on and the ignition relay switched on via fuse 24.

If you are getting no voltage at fuse 24 (with the ignition on), there's a problem. The live side of this fuse is directly connected to the ignition switch via a yellow 3mm wire. Check back to your ignition switch. Check both sides of the fuse.

Fuse 23 is the starter motor (SM) cranking fuse.

You need a RAVE disc...

Hi Bee utey. Checked those fuses again this arvo, yes has voltage on both, the fuse 24 had feed from the opposite side to the other fuses.

Coils are firing , and fuel is flooding in the cylinders,
I'm running out of options.
I'm pretty convinced that it's a problem with the spark occuring on the wrong cylinder as the injector squirts fuel, (Similar to when plug leads are fitted in the incorrect sequence)

Reading through RAVE there is also a cam angle sensor, might have to check that also

Running out of ideas, may be some how my timing chain as jumped some sprockets?? and cam and crank are out of sink?

Getting ready to set fire to the damn thing

Mario

Did you eliminate the CKP sensor.

Extract from the workshop manual below. (pages 18-2-14 to 18-2-16, Page starting 313 of Adobe)

Regards
Andrew


ENGINE MANAGEMENT SYSTEM - V8
18-2-14 DESCRIPTION AND OPERATION

Crankshaft speed and Position (CKP) sensor (C0168)
The CKP sensor is located towards the rear of the engine below cylinder number 7, with its tip adjacent to the outer
circumference of the flywheel. The CKP sensor is the most important sensor on the vehicle and without its signal the
engine will not run. The signal produced by the CKP sensor allows the ECM to determine crankshaft angle and speed
of rotation. The ECM uses this information to calculate ignition timing and fuel injection timing.
The CKP sensor works as a variable reluctance sensor. It uses an electromagnet and a reluctor ring to generate a
signal. As the reluctor ring passes the tip of the CKP sensor the magnetic field produced by the sensor is cut and then
re-instated. The ECM measures the signal as an ac voltage.
The output voltage varies in proportion to engine speed. The reluctor ring has a set tooth pattern, 60 teeth are spaced
at 6° intervals and are 3° wide, two teeth are removed to provide a reference mark at 60° BTDC for number 1 cylinder.
There is no back up strategy or limp home facility if this sensor fails, the engine does not run.
Input/Output
Because of the nature of its operation the CKP sensor does not require any electrical input source. The CKP sensor
is a 3 pin variable reluctance sensor generating its own electrical output. The 2 output sources from the sensor are
earthed via pin 46 of connector C0636 of the ECM and sensor output is via pin 32 of connector C0636 of the ECM.
This output is in the form of an ac voltage waveform. The 3rd pin is used by the ECM as an earth screen, this screen
protects the integrity of the CKP sensor signal to ensure that outside electrical interference is eliminated, it is
controlled via pin 45 of connector C0636 of the ECM. The ac voltage generated from the CKP sensor is relative to
engine speed.

ENGINE MANAGEMENT SYSTEM - V8
DESCRIPTION AND OPERATION 18-2-15

Typical CKP sensor output
The above readings are dependent upon correct air gap between the tip of the CKP sensor and the passing teeth of
the reluctor ring. The correct air gap between the tip of the CKP sensor and the passing teeth of the reluctor ring can
be set by the correct fitting of a spacer as follows:
l 9.2 mm spacer for vehicles with manual gearbox fitted.
l 18 mm spacer for vehicles with automatic gearbox fitted.
It is vital that the correct air gap is maintained, if the air gap becomes too wide the CKP signal becomes too weak,
causing possible engine misfires to occur.
The CKP sensor can fail the following ways or supply incorrect signal:
l Sensor assembly loose.
l Incorrect spacer fitted.
l Sensor open circuit.
l Sensor short circuit.
l Incorrect fitting and integrity of the sensor.
l Water ingress at sensor connector
l ECM unable to detect the software reference point.
l Ferrous contamination of crank sensor pin/reluctor
In the event of a CKP sensor signal failure any of the following symptoms may be observed:
l Engine cranks but fails to start.
l MIL remains on at all times.
l Engine misfires (CKP sensor incorrectly fitted).
l Engine runs roughly or even stalls (CKP sensor incorrectly fitted).
l Tachometer fails to work.
l Flywheel adaption reset – ferrous contamination
If the CKP sensor fails while the engine is running the engine will suddenly stall, this is because the CKP sensor has
no backup strategy. If this happens the ECM will produce a fault code that it can store in its memory. If the engine is
not running when the CKP sensor fails, the vehicle will crank but will be unlikely to start, and no fault code will be
generated. In this instance the MIL lamp will remain illuminated and the tachometer will fail to read.

ENGINE MANAGEMENT SYSTEM - V8
18-2-16 DESCRIPTION AND OPERATION

It is vital that the CKP sensor output wires are not reversed (i.e. the connector is fitted incorrectly) as this will cause
a 3° advance in ignition timing. This happens because the ECM uses the falling edge of the signal waveform as its
reference or timing point for each passing tooth on the reluctor.
Whenever a new crankshaft position sensor is fitted or the flywheel is removed, the adaptive values will have to be
reset, using TestBook.
Should a malfunction of the component occur, the following fault codes may be evident and can be retrieved by

TestBook:
P Code J2012 description Land Rover description
P0335 Crankshaft position sensor a circuit malfunction Reference mark outside search window for more than
two revs, with engine speed above 500 rev/min
P0336 Crankshaft position sensor a circuit range/
performance
Incorrect number of teeth detected ±1 tooth between
reference marks with engine speed above 500 rpm

Originally Posted by Andrew D

Mario

Did you eliminate the CKP sensor.

Extract from the workshop manual below. (pages 18-2-14 to 18-2-16, Page starting 313 of Adobe)

Regards
Andrew


ENGINE MANAGEMENT SYSTEM - V8
18-2-14 DESCRIPTION AND OPERATION

Crankshaft speed and Position (CKP) sensor (C0168)
The CKP sensor is located towards the rear of the engine below cylinder number 7, with its tip adjacent to the outer
circumference of the flywheel. The CKP sensor is the most important sensor on the vehicle and without its signal the
engine will not run. The signal produced by the CKP sensor allows the ECM to determine crankshaft angle and speed
of rotation. The ECM uses this information to calculate ignition timing and fuel injection timing.
The CKP sensor works as a variable reluctance sensor. It uses an electromagnet and a reluctor ring to generate a
signal. As the reluctor ring passes the tip of the CKP sensor the magnetic field produced by the sensor is cut and then
re-instated. The ECM measures the signal as an ac voltage.
The output voltage varies in proportion to engine speed. The reluctor ring has a set tooth pattern, 60 teeth are spaced
at 6° intervals and are 3° wide, two teeth are removed to provide a reference mark at 60° BTDC for number 1 cylinder.
There is no back up strategy or limp home facility if this sensor fails, the engine does not run.
Input/Output
Because of the nature of its operation the CKP sensor does not require any electrical input source. The CKP sensor
is a 3 pin variable reluctance sensor generating its own electrical output. The 2 output sources from the sensor are
earthed via pin 46 of connector C0636 of the ECM and sensor output is via pin 32 of connector C0636 of the ECM.
This output is in the form of an ac voltage waveform. The 3rd pin is used by the ECM as an earth screen, this screen
protects the integrity of the CKP sensor signal to ensure that outside electrical interference is eliminated, it is
controlled via pin 45 of connector C0636 of the ECM. The ac voltage generated from the CKP sensor is relative to
engine speed.

ENGINE MANAGEMENT SYSTEM - V8
DESCRIPTION AND OPERATION 18-2-15

Typical CKP sensor output
The above readings are dependent upon correct air gap between the tip of the CKP sensor and the passing teeth of
the reluctor ring. The correct air gap between the tip of the CKP sensor and the passing teeth of the reluctor ring can
be set by the correct fitting of a spacer as follows:
l 9.2 mm spacer for vehicles with manual gearbox fitted.
l 18 mm spacer for vehicles with automatic gearbox fitted.
It is vital that the correct air gap is maintained, if the air gap becomes too wide the CKP signal becomes too weak,
causing possible engine misfires to occur.
The CKP sensor can fail the following ways or supply incorrect signal:
l Sensor assembly loose.
l Incorrect spacer fitted.
l Sensor open circuit.
l Sensor short circuit.
l Incorrect fitting and integrity of the sensor.
l Water ingress at sensor connector
l ECM unable to detect the software reference point.
l Ferrous contamination of crank sensor pin/reluctor
In the event of a CKP sensor signal failure any of the following symptoms may be observed:
l Engine cranks but fails to start.
l MIL remains on at all times.
l Engine misfires (CKP sensor incorrectly fitted).
l Engine runs roughly or even stalls (CKP sensor incorrectly fitted).
l Tachometer fails to work.
l Flywheel adaption reset – ferrous contamination
If the CKP sensor fails while the engine is running the engine will suddenly stall, this is because the CKP sensor has
no backup strategy. If this happens the ECM will produce a fault code that it can store in its memory. If the engine is
not running when the CKP sensor fails, the vehicle will crank but will be unlikely to start, and no fault code will be
generated. In this instance the MIL lamp will remain illuminated and the tachometer will fail to read.

ENGINE MANAGEMENT SYSTEM - V8
18-2-16 DESCRIPTION AND OPERATION

It is vital that the CKP sensor output wires are not reversed (i.e. the connector is fitted incorrectly) as this will cause
a 3° advance in ignition timing. This happens because the ECM uses the falling edge of the signal waveform as its
reference or timing point for each passing tooth on the reluctor.
Whenever a new crankshaft position sensor is fitted or the flywheel is removed, the adaptive values will have to be
reset, using TestBook.
Should a malfunction of the component occur, the following fault codes may be evident and can be retrieved by

TestBook:
P Code J2012 description Land Rover description
P0335 Crankshaft position sensor a circuit malfunction Reference mark outside search window for more than
two revs, with engine speed above 500 rev/min
P0336 Crankshaft position sensor a circuit range/
performance
Incorrect number of teeth detected ±1 tooth between
reference marks with engine speed above 500 rpm

Hi Andrew, when I disconnect the CKP and crank the engine there is no spark at the plugs. When I reconnect it I have spark and fuel.
The old CKP does this, as does the brand new genuine one. It is the correct part number for autos as it has a larger spacer than the CKP on the manual gearbox version.

I have read the Rave section of engine management, and noted the fact that if the connector is fitted incorrectly then the timing could be out.

I checked this again this afternoon and there is no way can I connect it the wrong way at the socket as it won't go in unless the correct orientation on the plug clips is used.

as :TestBook:
P Code J2012 description Land Rover description
P0335 Crankshaft position sensor a circuit malfunction Reference mark outside search window for more than
two revs, with engine speed above 500 rev/min
P0336 Crankshaft position sensor a circuit range/
performance
Incorrect number of teeth detected ±1 tooth between
reference marks with engine speed above 500 rpm

I can only crank engine at 360rpm

The reluctor ring has a set tooth pattern, 60 teeth are spaced
at 6° intervals and are 3° wide, two teeth are removed to provide a reference mark at 60° BTDC for number 1 cylinder.

I don't know it this will show anything, but tomorrow I intend to rotate the flywheel and find the 2 tooth missing section of the reluctor ring and check where cylinder 1 is at.

regards, Mario

is it possible that the injectors are continually pumping fuel causing the flooding,don"t know if this is possible.

Originally Posted by lewy

is it possible that the injectors are continually pumping fuel causing the flooding,don"t know if this is possible.

It's flooding more likely that on each rotation of the motor the injectors squirt, but the spark is not there to ignite it. Then it must eventually get a spark and thats the popping sound I get, but the pistons and valves are not in the correct stroke.

The P1668 fault is: Anti-Theft Alarm serial link fault Drive cycle A: Signal out of range - above maximum

The EOBD workbook on the RAVE CD also describes this DTC as "Serial link open circuit".

Possible causes:

1. Open circuit - C637/33 (LGS) to C661/10 (LGS)
2. Connectors C661, ECM C637 (B)
3. Alarm ECU Faulty
4. Alarm ECU not fitted.

Use the Electrical Library pdf on the RAVE CD to identify the connectors and pins (Look at the "Connector Views" section). Check you have continuity from C637/33 -> C661/10 then make sure contacts aren't backed of housings, dirty, etc, etc.

I can't find EOBD Workbook via the RAVE interface but it's on the disk image at pdf > general > talr000e.pdf

cheers
Paul