TD5 Vibration... (yes I know there is a 409 post thread on this)

[jezzarezza]

In the process of trying to find cause for low frequency vibration/harmonic in my D2 auto. Have looked on the forum (409 posts, 2hrs later.. holy ****!) Before I just aim the parts cannon at it, I'm going to start basic and cheap. my list of potential causes in order in which I will tackle this is as follows, would appreciate any advice:




Disco 2 TD5 auto possible causes for vibration/harmonic occurring at 2250 (peak vibration, starts at approximately 2150 and ends at about 2300 – just before and just after first line/increment after 2000rpm)




Diff drive flange/Rubber grommet – has already been replaced – no change




1. Counterweights check if they're there and secure first – there should be three mounted underneath? – on the rear axle/diff, T box and crank pulley? (crank pulley was replaced by previous owner trying to solve this problem)




2. Torque converter drive/flex plates – I'm thinking this is unlikely as there is no 'clack, clack, clack' as I switch the car off. I will look to see if there is any cracks and if so will replace. Another solution could be the upgraded converter from Ashcroft – I need to get a tune first..




3. Handbrake cable/ run out of the drum - The part number and repair procedure for this kit taken from a PDF on this forum: 70/06/04/NAS, part no# SMN500050 .............Hold down spring kit - brake shoe.




Having trouble finding this part in oz stores, and the price of shipping alone is $35 for a $16 dollar part.. excessive!! is there another part no for the same kit? If someone could provide a link to get it cheaper I would be very gratefull. (I tried seing if the vibration stops if I had the handbrake on, in neutral and park and it was still there but I will still try this solution as it is relatively cheap and easy)




4. Engine mounts and tranny mounts – duro ratings, is OEM necessary?? What is oem duro?? is Nolathane an option?? (red) ?? Any links to the cheapest and best option welcome




5. Exhaust – down-pipe, flex coupling placement & or backpressure harmonics – what is the easiest way to find out which of these options is the culprit?




6. Oil cooler pipes – I have no idea how this could be causing the vibration, but it was suggested so I have put this as an option to get info about it



7. Driveshaft vibrations – of which there are several different types: Transverse, Torsional, Inertial excitation, Secondary couple and Critical speed vibrations – Will have to sort this out by taking it to a shop. Will do this if the above fails.




Apparently, there was a fix for the front shaft re. spline joint stiffness: Old part number: FTC5320 or TVB000100 New part number: TVB000220. How do I find out which shaft I have? (I have an early 2001 and not sure if it has been changed)




8. Transfer case – from what I have read this is a bit over my head. I may have a small leak in the intermediate seal and my TC may need fixing/replacing or the intermediate seal done – This is also a big and expensive job (day/half day or so) so I am leaving as a later option as well.




The rear drive shaft was replaced before I bought the car, not sure about the front. As I was told by the previous owner, he was lucky for this to not have caused catastrophic damage. I am wondering if this has led to wear on the transfer case and if it is contributing to the vibration. – again, if this is the case, I will look at TC fix as a later option.




9. TD5 harmonics & engine wear – worn journals and bearings – solution: grind journals & replace bearings – This is a last option for me as it’s is above my skill level







cheers

[AK83]

....




Disco 2 TD5 auto possible causes for vibration/harmonic occurring at 2250 (peak vibration, starts at approximately 2150 and ends at about 2300 – just before and just after first line/increment after 2000rpm)




....

From this line, I doubt you'll find anything in the driveshaft system(eg. drive shafts, unis, etc.)
Handbrake maybe, engine mounts possibly, harmonic balancer, etc .. maybe! But from your description it sounds engine related.
What you describe there, does that mean that you get the vibe irrespective of gear(and hence speed)?

Quick story: brother had this same issue for a long while just after he got his '03 TD5, and we chased all manner of driveline and engine hardware.
Changed filters, oils, you name it, we changed it.
I'm convinced now that his similar vibe was related to the injector washers. I reckon they were on the way out, coz eventually they got to a very bad situation where not only did he have the vibration issue, but then the motor cut out as if no fuel.
I've posted about this issue some time back, and thanks to insistent helpful members here, the injector seals/washers were done.

Solved both the shutdown issue and (for a short while) the vibration issue too.
What actually happened to his Td5 tho was that not long after the injector washers were done, another vibe started, but this one was different. Not 'speed related' in any way other than close to toque converter lockup.
Anyhow, the new vibe was a worn, slipping torque converter. rebuilt, and now about as good as new(other than a loud exhaust).

So define the vibe more specifically. ie. is the vibe only at 2150-2300 only in top gear? ... torque converter lockup or unlocked? .. what about third gear? ... or any gear or neutral? Etc, etc.

[jezzarezza]

From this line, I doubt you'll find anything in the driveshaft system(eg. drive shafts, unis, etc.)
Handbrake maybe, engine mounts possibly, harmonic balancer, etc .. maybe! But from your description it sounds engine related.
What you describe there, does that mean that you get the vibe irrespective of gear(and hence speed)?

Quick story: brother had this same issue for a long while just after he got his '03 TD5, and we chased all manner of driveline and engine hardware.
Changed filters, oils, you name it, we changed it.
I'm convinced now that his similar vibe was related to the injector washers. I reckon they were on the way out, coz eventually they got to a very bad situation where not only did he have the vibration issue, but then the motor cut out as if no fuel.
I've posted about this issue some time back, and thanks to insistent helpful members here, the injector seals/washers were done.

Solved both the shutdown issue and (for a short while) the vibration issue too.
What actually happened to his Td5 tho was that not long after the injector washers were done, another vibe started, but this one was different. Not 'speed related' in any way other than close to toque converter lockup.
Anyhow, the new vibe was a worn, slipping torque converter. rebuilt, and now about as good as new(other than a loud exhaust).

So define the vibe more specifically. ie. is the vibe only at 2150-2300 only in top gear? ... torque converter lockup or unlocked? .. what about third gear? ... or any gear or neutral? Etc, etc.

It’s worse under load, at any speed, only rpm related (not gear related, happens in all gears and not shut down issue at all). When under load, at max vibration, there is another higher frequency “rattle” that comes it that sounds like it’s coming from under the dash somewhere, it seems secondary.

This rattle is not there when stationary, in N, handbrake off and the low frequency vib is much less, almost bearable

[rover-56]

Firstly, the TD5 is a 5 cylinder. There is a inherent vibration in this engine around 2200-2300.
LR's attempt to suppress it was basically a rubber mounted mass on the rear of the transfer case, and very clever oil filled engine mounts. The V8 does not have this problem.
Make sure the TC mass is there and bolted on tight, and only use genuine engine mounts.
The vibration will be more apparent in auto lockup because there is a direct mechanical connection to the drive train.
The 5 cylinder engine vibration (which you will not be able to remove) will cause all sorts of secondary rattles and buzzes elsewhere, but the real solution is the TC damping mass, and good engine mounts.
Good luck.
Terry
(one time happy D2 TD5 owner)

[jezzarezza]

Firstly, the TD5 is a 5 cylinder. There is a inherent vibration in this engine around 2200-2300.
LR's attempt to suppress it was basically a rubber mounted mass on the rear of the transfer case, and very clever oil filled engine mounts. The V8 does not have this problem.
Make sure the TC mass is there and bolted on tight, and only use genuine engine mounts.
The vibration will be more apparent in auto lockup because there is a direct mechanical connection to the drive train.
The 5 cylinder engine vibration (which you will not be able to remove) will cause all sorts of secondary rattles and buzzes elsewhere, but the real solution is the TC damping mass, and good engine mounts.
Good luck.
Terry
(one time happy D2 TD5 owner)

Thanks. I’ve checked the engine and trans mounts and they look reasonable. The drivers side looks new (They may not be genuine though). Flex plate is fine. The transfer case has the mass there. I will see if bolts need a nip up on that now. Torque converter seems to work fine, no slipping, accelerates well and changes gears well and smooth.

What you say makes sense, though definitely not what I want to hear in a way would be much less annoying if it was toned down or continuous I feel myself anticipating the vibration. I will try new mounts and check handbrake next as soon as i can find a reasonably priced kit for it.

I’m also suspecting the exh manifold and flex joint as that is where the majority of the vib/ harmonic seems to come from

[AK83]

It’s worse under load, at any speed, only rpm related (not gear related, happens in all gears and not shut down issue at all). When under load, at max vibration, there is another higher frequency “rattle” that comes it that sounds like it’s coming from under the dash somewhere, it seems secondary.

.....

Ditto!
Knowing what I now know of the TD5, if I were in your situation, the first thing I'd be double checking would be the injector seals and washers.(unless you've already had them checked/done).

I suspected just about everything except those seals.
Not a hard job to do, and the parts are cheap .. and really should be done .. at a guess every 100K klms or so anyhow.
Like I said, I'm totally convinced that the similar sounding vibration issue brother had was due to the injector seals, which only got worse over the course of the few months we tried to figure out the problem.

BTW: not long after the vibes started I remember doing a service or something where we had much of the front of the car apart, and during idling the harmonic damper was obviously cactus.
Damned expensive thing too, so was changed .. so we assumed that this was the vibe issue. New one fitted made no difference.

ps. the other obvious thing to check would be the injector loom, again, we changed his but made no difference.

Note that I found it close to impossible to believe that the seals would cause such an issue, but then thinking about it, it kind'a makes sense.
The injectors operate at such high pressure, if they're even just a fraction 'imperfect' in the way they operate, it makes an inherently unbalanced machine, more obviously unbalanced.

I have no idea how much the parts cost, but about $50 seems to be about normal, then you just need a couple of hours work to change them.

Hand brake should be obvious(I've read) as they say apply a small amount of handbrake whilst travelling along, and if it doesn't make a difference, then it's not the typical handbrake issue.

FWIW: We changed fuel pump, FPR, fuel filter, the small one way non return valve(at the fuel filter head) engine oil, fuel(first time around, he thought maybe a bad batch of diesel), blew out fuel lines, front propshaft rebuilt, transfer case front flange .. all came to nothing!
Then one day it started to do the shutdown thing, it would run fine for about 2-3mins, no vibes!! .. but then would shut itself down(like a lack of fuel).
I thought CPU or wiring loom, but the respected members who know better all said injector seals ..
Changed them, and ...

And just for clarity on his issue too tho. He then went on a camp trip, and a few weeks after ha came back, it started to vibrate again, only this time only at speed(ie. not engine revs). only in third and fourth. Then when I drove it, the torque converter was ovbiously slipping(unlocking) and causing this new vibe.
Only question I keep going back too now after all was done, was if the torque converter was on the way out prior, and maybe under more strain before the injector seals were done, or did the rough running cause the torque converter to start playing up.
Previous owner had the trans rebuilt about 6 months prior, and of course I'm always weary or such claims, but when I took the converter to a mob to rebuild, it was obviously rebuilt not too long ago.
My mechanic and the trans place I took it for a service both said the trans was obviously rebuilt not long ago too .. so my doubt was squashed.
I still question tho .. if new trans and torque converter, did the injector seal cause the converter to fail early!

Also, apparently you can measure the TD5 engine mounts for wear(collapse) using something like a drill bit. I've only read about it and never tried it(even tho I should have when we were going through the checking phase)
And I'm sure once you figure out the first vibe issue, the secondary noise(under dash) will likely stop being a nuisance.
.

[jezzarezza]

Ditto!
Knowing what I now know of the TD5, if I were in your situation, the first thing I'd be double checking would be the injector seals and washers.(unless you've already had them checked/done).

I suspected just about everything except those seals.
Not a hard job to do, and the parts are cheap .. and really should be done .. at a guess every 100K klms or so anyhow.
Like I said, I'm totally convinced that the similar sounding vibration issue brother had was due to the injector seals, which only got worse over the course of the few months we tried to figure out the problem.

BTW: not long after the vibes started I remember doing a service or something where we had much of the front of the car apart, and during idling the harmonic damper was obviously cactus.
Damned expensive thing too, so was changed .. so we assumed that this was the vibe issue. New one fitted made no difference.

ps. the other obvious thing to check would be the injector loom, again, we changed his but made no difference.

Note that I found it close to impossible to believe that the seals would cause such an issue, but then thinking about it, it kind'a makes sense.
The injectors operate at such high pressure, if they're even just a fraction 'imperfect' in the way they operate, it makes an inherently unbalanced machine, more obviously unbalanced.

I have no idea how much the parts cost, but about $50 seems to be about normal, then you just need a couple of hours work to change them.

Hand brake should be obvious(I've read) as they say apply a small amount of handbrake whilst travelling along, and if it doesn't make a difference, then it's not the typical handbrake issue.

FWIW: We changed fuel pump, FPR, fuel filter, the small one way non return valve(at the fuel filter head) engine oil, fuel(first time around, he thought maybe a bad batch of diesel), blew out fuel lines, front propshaft rebuilt, transfer case front flange .. all came to nothing!
Then one day it started to do the shutdown thing, it would run fine for about 2-3mins, no vibes!! .. but then would shut itself down(like a lack of fuel).
I thought CPU or wiring loom, but the respected members who know better all said injector seals ..
Changed them, and ...

And just for clarity on his issue too tho. He then went on a camp trip, and a few weeks after ha came back, it started to vibrate again, only this time only at speed(ie. not engine revs). only in third and fourth. Then when I drove it, the torque converter was ovbiously slipping(unlocking) and causing this new vibe.
Only question I keep going back too now after all was done, was if the torque converter was on the way out prior, and maybe under more strain before the injector seals were done, or did the rough running cause the torque converter to start playing up.
Previous owner had the trans rebuilt about 6 months prior, and of course I'm always weary or such claims, but when I took the converter to a mob to rebuild, it was obviously rebuilt not too long ago.
My mechanic and the trans place I took it for a service both said the trans was obviously rebuilt not long ago too .. so my doubt was squashed.
I still question tho .. if new trans and torque converter, did the injector seal cause the converter to fail early!

Also, apparently you can measure the TD5 engine mounts for wear(collapse) using something like a drill bit. I've only read about it and never tried it(even tho I should have when we were going through the checking phase)
And I'm sure once you figure out the first vibe issue, the secondary noise(under dash) will likely stop being a nuisance.
.

Thanks for all this info and taking the time mate.

I will try changing injector seals, esp bc its cheap and easy to do. It does make sense.

The engine and trans mounts look good, more than 10mm between the steel parts, though not sure if they’re genuine or not. The old man suggested putting a thin strip of reasonably soft nylothane behind them (not sure if this is will work, a little worried i’ll add more stiffness by condensing/squashing the mounts)

I will also have a look at the exhaust manifold for soot. I wondered if that late rattle was from the heat shield anyway. Worth a check

[jezzarezza]

Here are my engine mounts, they look ok to me but I don’t really know what I’m looking for. Is there a way to tell if they’re genuine?

On the engine mount tip.. does anyone think it’s a bad idea/can forsee trouble by putting a thin strip(5mm or so thick) piece of nolathane under the chassis side of the engine mount? I wouldn’t think 5mm would mess with driveline geometry too much (might make bell housing a bit too close to trans tunnel tho)

[rover-56]

You did well getting the camera down in there.
Don't know how to compare gen and non gen engine mounts, when I replaced mine the old ones looked a lot like the new, but a bit lower.
I think you would have to take them out, and the LH one is a bit hard to do.
Replacing the injector seals makes sense, anything that makes the engine run less evenly, like injector problems would make it harder for the engine mounts to absorb the vibration.
Replacing my eng. mounts certainly reduced that vibration at 2150 to a level I could tolerate.
Problem is that it is at 100kmh in auto lockup.
"I have to do 110 officer, because the car doesn't like the speed limit"
Cheers,
Terry

[rover-56]

I meant to add that I don't think adding nolathane underneath is going to improve the flexibility of a worn engine mount.
Your mounts look ok though.
Terry