Thread: Water to Air Intercooling

Originally Posted by admiralranga

Considering it seems like you're only running out of cooling capacity at high loads and ambient temps very rarely would a water mist setup for the IC/rads be an option?

Did do some research on this and the fact I have a 40 litre water tank in the back of the D2 thought I thought it could possibly be used as a reservoir, but fresh water is precious if I was to do the Simpson or such, for VHC trips would not be an issue.

Looking at my Nanocom logs and it would appear that the ATAIC (mine is a SercK) works pretty bloody well with inlet temps at around 35-40C, but again this is driving every day with very high 'ambient' temps to the radiator. The front area of the D2 is 'small' and compromised as many previous threads have attested to and have not put driving lights in front of the radiator due to this fact

The thought is to reduce the thermal load into the radiator to allow for an EF to operate effectively, irrespective of the temps of the day or the load on the engine. There is enough capacity for the radiator to cool the TD5 irrespective of state of tune as can be attested to around the world, but headroom is restricted as anyone towing will attest to as well.

As with coolant many manufacturers are moving to electric (power losses) and in the case of intercooling, companies such as BMW, Toyota ( Toyota V35A-FTS 3.5L Twin Turbo Engine Specs, Problems, Reliability, oil - In-Depth Review ) etc. have gone WTAIC for the higher performance variants whilst lower powered may utilize ATAIC, emissions are one reason but the effectiveness of being able to control temps are primary.

One of the thoughts I had was along the lines of the plumbing, already the TD5 takes the outlet of the turbo down low and then lifts it up to the intercooler, if this was to rather go down into a pipe that runs low with the coolant assembly below the radiator and a product such as the barrel from PWR then almost vertical directly into the intake manifold - remember I am thinking about EF so space is not an issue in this case and it may not be a issue with the VF - this is entirely possible. Then its a case of finding space for the small 'radiator assembly'...

Forgot to add, my initial thoughts as to WTAIC was to an add a frame to the 'shroud' had made for the initial EF conversion and hang it above the front of the engine with a small scoop cut into the rise of the bonnet.

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such as this one - Large Universal Intake Bonnet Scoop- Toyota Landcruiser 70/76/78/79/80 - Mr Bodykits - with it connected to the frame and just a cutout in the bonnet itself.

Yes I know, too much time on my hands!

Originally Posted by RRT

Yes I know, too much time on my hands!

Too much money, possibly! I have plenty of time......

Scoop looks like the one my son's Patrol has. His started life as a 3.0 Turbo so had a small scoop already, but now it's a tuned TD42 ( if such a thing is possible ) and the IC is bigger. As Discorevy says, in front may be more efficient, but the TD42 is a kettle at the best of times. Tough choice, I hate overheating... TD5s allegedly don't.... but mine did.... Sure, idiotic plastic dowels.... Makes me nervous though.

Originally Posted by Tins

Too much money, possibly! I have plenty of time......

Scoop looks like the one my son's Patrol has. His started life as a 3.0 Turbo so had a small scoop already, but now it's a tuned TD42 ( if such a thing is possible ) and the IC is bigger. As Discorevy says, in front may be more efficient, but the TD42 is a kettle at the best of times. Tough choice, I hate overheating... TD5s allegedly don't.... but mine did.... Sure, idiotic plastic dowels.... Makes me nervous though.

For your son, the M57 and 8HP would be optimum especially as it is already a straight 6 engine bay with plenty of room!

Front Mounted is more efficient than top mount no doubt as they also tend to be dimensionally larger than a top mount, but my interest was they also compromise the radiator somewhat let alone already having to deal with the AC and Trans Cooler as well.

Even in a standard setup the reduced pressure drop across a WTAIC against a ATAIC would be for some enough, sure it is only a couple of psi but this is performance and along with the lower EGT's due to lower IAT's, again, they are advantages which can be weighed up as to viability for some. The more performance someone is chasing the more advantageous WTAIC is.

Already have enough on my plate to thoroughly pursue this, gee haven't installed the Patrol Airbox and 4" snorkel yet. That said will be monitoring any others movement on this topic because sometime in the future, this is coming!!!

Originally Posted by RRT

Looking at my Nanocom logs and it would appear that the ATAIC (mine is a SercK) works pretty bloody well with inlet temps at around 35-40C, but again this is driving every day with very high 'ambient' temps to the radiator.

The thought is to reduce the therm

So what would the TD be between air into air box compared with air into the engine(charge air),at say 100Km/hr on the flat?

Just interesting to compare to the LC200,with top mount,but no bonnet scoop,it uses ram air ducted through the bonnet,which is more efficient than the bonnet scoop on the 70 series,as my son has one and his TD is always a lot higher than ours.

Originally Posted by scarry

So what would the TD be between air into air box compared with air into the engine(charge air),at say 100Km/hr on the flat?

Just interesting to compare to the LC200,with top mount,but no bonnet scoop,it uses ram air ducted through the bonnet,which is more efficient than the bonnet scoop on the 70 series,as my son has one and his TD is always a lot higher than ours.

A whole lot the information out there is regarding petrol rather than diesel with generally much lower charge pressures. This colours the information as being suitable for extreme situations rather than a benefit for the street, however diesels are in somewhat an extreme situation as to charge pressures, 14psi is up the upper reaches for most petrol engines yet this is a standard TD5.

You will never get below ambient temp with an IC unless secondary cooling such as ice or refrigeration is used, basic thermodynamics. The after market IC's are big with large surface areas for the purpose of cooling and at 100kph, there is a lot of air coming through the system to dissipate temps.

The cooling fan at these speeds is generally not required and the reason VF are used, but the issue is more relevant to low speed usage. It is here where the system is compromised, if we did not slow below 60kph we probably could ditch the fan altogether. A road is also hotter than the ambient temperature as can be attested to when walking on asphalt with bare feet, so the air above the road will also be hotter - gliders use heated air from roads and rocks to rise on the thermal currents they create.

When accelerating pressurizing of the air (and rise in EGT's) increases the IAT proportionally (this lags somewhat as the system takes time to heat up) but generally the intake pressure is reduced once we achieve speed and allowing the ability of the IC to dissipate the heat with increased airflow down to a stabilized temp. I would contend it more the size of the IC and associated plumbing that would give lower temps at these speeds rather than ducted or scooped, simply there is more than enough throughput with either.

The issue becomes when the vehicle is moving slowly, either system or FMIC without fan assistance will not receive the airflow they need to cool as well as when travelling at cruising speed. Sustained running at low speeds under load can lead to heat soak conditions totally compromising cooling. The ram air system probably does not have fan assistance and a compromised access to the atmosphere at low speeds, the scoop less so.

Here is an add for a 79 intercooler with fans, take some of the marketing gumph out it but the inherent message is we need airflow to an intercooler to allow it to dissipate heat
Why would my Landcruiser need this?

As we have experienced from countless hours spent on the dyno, the Toyota Landcruiser VDJ engines suffer hard from heatsoak into the factory top mounted intercooler. Inside the ECU, there are specific parameters which will derate the engines performance under these conditions leaving you with less power and less torque, sometimes up to 20% less! You may have even experienced this in your own travels. This effect is often amplified by tuning, so if you have had your Landcruiser tuned, then this is a must! Fitting this kit reduces the effect of the heatsoak significantly.

Top Mount Intercooler Thermo Fan Kit 70 Series Landcruiser - HD Automotive

You may have even experienced this in your own travels. This effect is often amplified by tuning, so if you have had your Landcruiser tuned, then this is a must! Fitting this kit reduces the effect of the heatsoak significantly.

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Never experienced any loss in power,due to heatsoak,but we don't tow,and not tuned.
I have always wondered how accurate a dyno is as the vehicle is stationary,sure a large fan can blow air towards the vehicle,but the quantity could be nowhere near the amount,either by more or less,than the ram air once it is movng.
The worse i have seen,with the 200, is at an ambient of 37 degrees,75 degrees air into the engine.That was over an hour working the vehicle very hard, travelling at low speed in very soft sand.I was more concerned about the auto temperatures than anything else at the time.
Normal driving,even climbing something like the old,or the new Toowoomba bypass,in ambients of 40 degrees,loaded,the air into the engine will sit between 10 and 15 degrees,which is pretty good i would have thought.We do that run regularly.Generally it will sit at between 4 to 6 degrees above ambient at Hwy speeds.Even better at lower ambients.

There are a few tests around on those fans,on 200s,and some have worked out at highway speeds,they actually restrict air to the TMIC.
On a 79 they may work well.

On another note,a mate recently had a GVM upgrade on a Ranger,and a larger intercooler was part of the "Kit".So maybe the FMIC on that particular model is borderline in size.

You know that is a large intercooler on the 200, 2 * 10" fans WOW!! In discussions with Davies Craig when looking to install the EF on the TD5 the use of fans in front of the radiator although not an option for the D2, could in fact cause a situation of reduced effectiveness as the fan speed is interrupting the airflow rather than assisting at speed, less of a problem at low speed where the fan itself is providing the flow.

The large fan used on the DYNO is an interesting scenario, it is not 'ducted' directly into the radiator afaik rather at the car, and, could never match a full WALL of air coming in at 80kph + as a vehicle is on the road. A car front will split the air from a fan as it is the path of least resistance.


The real world scenario data you have provided is great, the delta between IAT and temp of coolant ( I know that this is TMIC ) but is shows if this was a TD5, that IAT against a radiator that is outputting coolant at 95C at the outlet with low air volume due to speeds is at a very compromised level. The greater the delta the better the cooling ability so to speak. This is certainly the expected situation where heat soak in a TD5 would occur with the FMIC no chance of being as effective as required. From here as the engine works harder, the temperature will rise further.

The TD5 auto also has the Auto Cooler in front of the radiator as well and as we know the temps here are also 80C+ and a hardworking auto D2 with standard TC will raise that.

When we are looking at a price of $1K and upwards to around $1.8K (PWR) the cost of upgraded FMIC is not inconsiderable, are the benefits there and palpable, absolutely. A PWR WTAIC is going to cost around the same as its PWR FMIC once additional piping is taken into account and then there is the fitting itself. There can be considerable savings, still using quality parts, that would be around the lower cost of upgraded FMIC's. These are a fair bit cheaper than the TOYO aftermarket fan upgrades which the ones discussed are over $2K, talk about tax!!!!!!