Thread: Another Malaysian plane down ...

Originally Posted by 85 county

Seems many Russian people are not so happy with there own governments involvement.

There are photos and statements popping up ( in Russian) then disappearing ( censorship)

The guts is. Rostov, is a small town with a small Kremlin ( quite well restored) and a sort of soviet amusement park beside a lake. I think about 180klm north east from Moscow.

historically it is known as the lake where peter the great built his first ships, to see if he could.

I remember parking up in this soviet amusement park, just down buy the lake. and being not Russian I drove all the way down. Being spring or autumn, the park itself was not operating.
Sitting down with my son who was about 1 at the time for lunch it was quite a nice spot. Not long after a Train ( small kids rides wheels) cam putting down with 3 wagons with seats for say 6 in each. The driver up front and a very FAT woman sitting in the last wagon. a comical site.
Then the Fat thing start yelling that the park is closed and you cant drive down there etc etc. I just ignored her, well because I can and I drive a big black jeep ( 4x4 GW ute) and she is sitting at the end of a kids ride.
10 minutes latter a couple of cops walk close. Obviously sent to kick us out. But then I drove a Bulshoy chornie jeep, so they were being careful. realizing I was not speaking Russian, ( i changed to Thai with my son) they slandered off. Another 10 minutes a suite comes marching down with a news paper under his arm. ( NB the newspaper is an indication of Power, IE the director) but as he got closer he side stepped and pretended to read his paper but with in earshot. 3 minutes he wondered off.

Why mention this, well im trying to explain the redneck heartland mother Russian attitudes to power. I drove a Great wall double cab ute. to an aussie its the second lowest 4x4 on the pride stakes. but to a Russian there. Its a 4x4 and it black and it has tinted windows. That produces some level of fear.

But not every where. but defiantly in Rostov ( NB NOT Rostov on Don) that’s a different place.

Rostov was the assembly point of the masses of untrained soviet solders who counterattacked the Germans at Moscow.

Rostov is surrounded by no go areas

Rostov is where Victor Bout, moved his family to well at least his grandmother, he also kept a home there.

Rostov is where the Ukrainian Russians are being trained.

A pic of me in 2007 about 20 klms north, next village

Well, if that is a description of life in Russia, I say keep the missiles pointed at them. Who looted the possessions of the passengers of flight MH 17? Bob

Originally Posted by bob10

Who looted the possessions of the passengers of flight MH 17? Bob

at a gess, the locals who live on about 300 USD a month, or less atm, who have to grow there own potatos and oinons just to live. those with no money to get out and no money to live, those who do not give a dam who the goverment is and just wish that all the guys with guns just go away.

Originally Posted by bob10

Well, if that is a description of life in Russia, I say keep the missiles pointed at them. Who looted the possessions of the passengers of flight MH 17? Bob

Sky News reporters, according to the footage!

Seems many Russian people are not so happy with there own governments involvement.

As for many people not happy, the most recent Gallup poll of Putin's approval rating in Russia would suggest otherwise.

Originally Posted by Offender90

Sky News reporters, according to the footage!



As for many people not happy, the most recent Gallup poll of Putin's approval rating in Russia would suggest otherwise.

1 do you beleve in a poll out of russia
2 I said many, i would say middle class, assess to internet and the ablity to post anonomisly, SOP in russia

his strong man suport comes from the bottom of the pile, " the west wants us weak" types and from the very rich who beleve he will make them richer. or atleast maintain the curret situation. if he looks weak the bottm will desert him, if the economy falls the rich will desert him. the midle class is of no threat becouse its to small a group. the poor are jellouse of them and the rich despise them.

Originally Posted by Offender90

Sky News reporters, according to the footage!



As for many people not happy, the most recent Gallup poll of Putin's approval rating in Russia would suggest otherwise.

Yes, he is very popular but its a interesting and rather multi layered situation in Russia support wise compared to other countries.
Have a read of this, this article is a fair reflection of my wife's very large middle class extended family here in Russia,their wages have gone up as described in the article but so has inflation and gas prices petrol etc and its better but niggles about corruption are appearing much more as well such as power companies seizing pensioners flats for unpaid power bills, a silly thing to do to the grandma of one of senior commanders of the elite parachute regiment, they can get angry!!!!One family membered retired from the army at 45 with Us$600 (double average wage) per month double the average wages and index linked...... is it sustainable?
Its a complex situation and hard to grasp it all'
I can tell you that Russian TVnews (in russian) would amaze you with some of the stuff that is being said and yes Fox News is bad as well but boy it's amazing sometimes, even Ozzie gets a "not so honorable mention" as well.
Article:

The middle class is the mainstay of Russia's society, as well as the greatest threat to the country's political regime.


Putin Can't Afford His Middle Class Base | Opinion | The Moscow Times

Originally Posted by 85 county

at a gess, the locals who live on about 300 USD a month, or less atm, who have to grow there own potatos and oinons just to live. those with no money to get out and no money to live, those who do not give a dam who the goverment is and just wish that all the guys with guns just go away.

Russians are wonderful people, aren't they? They tolerate a society that encourages corruption, from the top down, that has a culture that worships the bully, who struts around like a peacock on steroids, that has a population of cowards, who will not stand up against the bullies, bullies who have been soundly beaten in Afghanistan, and elsewhere, and who rely on Nazi principles to control their country, yet call the Ukranians Neo Nazis.


As with all cowardly bullies, Russia will get its just reward. It will just take a while for the rest of the World to get it's act together. Bob

Originally Posted by sashadidi

Yes, he is very popular but its a interesting and rather multi layered situation in Russia support wise compared to other countries.
Have a read of this, this article is a fair reflection of my wife's very large middle class extended family here in Russia,their wages have gone up as described in the article but so has inflation and gas prices petrol etc and its better but niggles about corruption are appearing much more as well such as power companies seizing pensioners flats for unpaid power bills, a silly thing to do to the grandma of one of senior commanders of the elite parachute regiment, they can get angry!!!!One family membered retired from the army at 45 with Us$600 (double average wage) per month double the average wages and index linked...... is it sustainable?
Its a complex situation and hard to grasp it all'
I can tell you that Russian TVnews (in russian) would amaze you with some of the stuff that is being said and yes Fox News is bad as well but boy it's amazing sometimes, even Ozzie gets a "not so honorable mention" as well.
Article:

The middle class is the mainstay of Russia's society, as well as the greatest threat to the country's political regime.


Putin Can't Afford His Middle Class Base | Opinion | The Moscow Times

Very complex indeed, but makes perfect sense for the most part. From the perspective of the Russian middle class, do they have a viable alternative if it goes somehat pear shaped for them? I.e. for it to really be a threat to the political regime, there has to be a viable alternative, and I'm not sure if such an alternative exists.

Of all the post soviet leaders,my understanding is that Putin has been the only one that has to some degree reigned in the oligarchs, while expanding the middle class, (which is a pre-requisite for a functioning democracy as we know it.) Balancing the interests of the oligarchs with those of the state is a tough gig, but once again, he's managed to bring the oligarchs around a common cause. Bring them around with an iron fist (as Berezovsky & Khodorkovsky found out) but bring them around all the same. Not exactly an ideal situation, but much better than was there previously.

In my view, Russia in its current state needs a strong man like Putin to direct the petrowealth into other sector,s to share the prosperity and expand the middle class. Time will tell if it works, but realistically speaking, is there an alternative who you think could steer the oligarchs into nationbuilding pursuits? (I don't know enough, but the little that I do know would suggest the intention is there to rebuild Russia into a better state).

Out of curiosity, what kind of stuff is being said on Russian TV? As for Aussies getting a not so honorable mention, can you blame them. Abbott announced in public that the Russians were responsible for the crash 4 hours after the plane went down... and then tried to defend the statement afterwards!!! #*&@*%!!!

Originally Posted by bob10

Russians are wonderful people, aren't they? They tolerate a society that encourages corruption, from the top down, that has a culture that worships the bully, who struts around like a peacock on steroids, that has a population of cowards, who will not stand up against the bullies, bullies who have been soundly beaten in Afghanistan, and elsewhere, and who rely on Nazi principles to control their country, yet call the Ukranians Neo Nazis.


As with all cowardly bullies, Russia will get its just reward. It will just take a while for the rest of the World to get it's act together. Bob

Yeah, not taking the bait.

Originally Posted by Offender90

Very complex indeed, but makes perfect sense for the most part. From the perspective of the Russian middle class, do they have a viable alternative if it goes somehat pear shaped for them? I.e. for it to really be a threat to the political regime, there has to be a viable alternative, and I'm not sure if such an alternative exists. .

very good point and quite correct. but unlike Australia the middle class is quite small or a small percentage of the population. I did read recently the number of 42% Australia is more like 85% i think. BUT the Russian number is Russian produced so i would expect a different set of criteria.
But you still have a country where an on the street cop earns less or about the same as his rent. Odiously to survive this income needs to be supplemented. In short no alternate exists in the short term. the Russian middle class is hoping thing will not change since for them it has never been better.

Originally Posted by Offender90

Of all the post soviet leaders,my understanding is that Putin has been the only one that has to some degree reigned in the oligarchs, while expanding the middle class, (which is a pre-requisite for a functioning democracy as we know it.) Balancing the interests of the oligarchs with those of the state is a tough gig, but once again, he's managed to bring the oligarchs around a common cause. Bring them around with an iron fist (as Berezovsky & Khodorkovsky found out) but bring them around all the same. Not exactly an ideal situation, but much better than was there previously. .

Well the real point is that Putin has been the only leader since the collapse of the CCCP. The rest of your post I agree with.
The not ideal situation is that there are Olarches with there own goals and motivations and that believe they are better stronger than Putin. In a country where the average age for a male is 52, Putin is an old man. Cant last forever, you can sort of see the orlarch vultures circling.

Originally Posted by Offender90

In my view, Russia in its current state needs a strong man like Putin to direct the petrowealth into other sector,s to share the prosperity and expand the middle class. Time will tell if it works, but realistically speaking, is there an alternative who you think could steer the oligarchs into nationbuilding pursuits? (I don't know enough, but the little that I do know would suggest the intention is there to rebuild Russia into a better state). .

Agree, part of the problem is the orlarches are spending there money outside of Russia. Hence Russia put in a pile of laws trying to slow this down. IE it is illegal to travel into or out of Russia with a Visa card. It is illegal to put money on a forran visa card while in Russia. Just the tip of the iceberg.
There has been very little spent in infrastructure in Russia. Sure a newish airport ( forren investment) a lot of shopping centers ( Jewish forren investment) a tunnel that only putting get to use at different times of the day etc. But the highway between Moscow and STP is still crap. Still no trucks are allowed on it in spring time. Hot water is turned off to all apartments for one month of the year etc
My point is every thing that is new is built with money from outside of Russia. Where is the Russian money going? Arms, French ships ( given up on trying to make there own) etc.

Yes they need a strong man like Putin to hold it all together. The Ukraine situation shows that Putin is not as strong as he was. And that’s the problem.

Originally Posted by Offender90

Out of curiosity, what kind of stuff is being said on Russian TV? As for Aussies getting a not so honorable mention, can you blame them. Abbott announced in public that the Russians were responsible for the crash 4 hours after the plane went down... and then tried to defend the statement afterwards!!! #*&@*%!!! .

Well agree Abbot jumped the gun and is leading the charge. BUT as for Russian news. In std soviet reporting style “ whataboutisum is alive and well”
It’s the west’s fault that the plane was shot down. It started off with a load of sifi bullocks but has settled down to it’s the west’s fault for letting the plane fly over. America has blood on its hands and its all there fault. Australia is an americanski puppet,( at least they get something correct).
To sum up Russian reporting

There was a bike / running race/ car race etc. two racers, a Russian and an American. The American won the race

American news. America first we are the greatest we bet the Russians!
Russian news. Great race Russia came second but only because of western influences working against our great Russian hero. America came second to last.