Thread: Another Malaysian plane down ...

Hey if it is the Ukrainians no different need to be taken to task, My understanding was the Ukraine did not have BUKs but if they have fine. At present looks more like Russia. I also understood that the Ukraine did not have any heavy armaments in this area and it was occupied by Ukrainian Sepratists and Russian Military. Latest video shows one of these heading back into Russia minus 2 missiles.
The thing to remember is Putin started this and once again is all about oil and gas.
That all aside whoever flicked the switch needs to be taken to account.
There are also reliable reports coming out that the sepratists and Russian military are using this equipment while ****ed.
Also as I have said there will be clear footage from various satellites so the reality is the source will already be known. Whether we get the truth or not is a different thing altogether.

Originally Posted by Offender90

Considering the way this tragic event is being covered by our media, I understand why you would think that.

Fact is however, Ukraine not only has BUK SAMs with an operational ceiling of up to 25 kms (depending on model), but also the infinitely more capable S-300 SAMs (33km ceiling & 300km range). Both are radar guided and truck mounted, so Ukraine is plenty capable of bringing the plane down. Much more so than the separatists in any case, who have only been using heat seeking, shoulder fired SAMs to date (which have an operational ceiling of 3kms).

The first point of debate / investigation should be if the separatists even have a SAM system capable of reaching that height? - which is far from the forgone conclusion that is being presented on the news. Its not helped by the comments of our glorious leader, who hours after the event announced on TV that it is without a doubt the Russian backed separatists who have brought the plane down, and that Russians are the ones who have armed them and should be held responsible.

Sentiment and emotions aside, we don't objectively know what type of SAM was used to bring the plane down. We don't know where the missile came from. All we know with any level of certainty is that it is most likely a Russian made SAM, and we know where the wreckage landed. Unfortunately that is far from conclusive as to who is responsible for shooting the plane down, as all the SAM systems withing the 500km region are Russian made.

There is the "intercepted" phone conversation - where do I begin, the timing and script make it somewhat dubiousd to say the least. Ukranian forces are being ambushed by the rebels left right and centre (so they don't have the information on mass movements of separatist forces), yet they have intercepted a phonecall discusing how separatists brought down the civilian plane, and how there are bodies littered everywhere... I mean who in their right mind would be discussing this on the phone anyway, and not only that, butto be so specific, reiterating all manner of incriminating information several times, as if to make sure it is understood by the lowest common denominator...

In fact it makes such good incriminating evidence, one has to ask if its too good to be true? (Yes, it is if you ask me).

The discussion I've seen on TV, in rough chronological orderm, has been evoilving as follows:

1.) We don't know anything, but the wreckage landed on separatist held teritory
2.) We don't know anything, but if separatists were responsible that would have significant consequences...
3.) Ukraine says separatists brought the plane down...
4.) (We still don't know anything, but...) If separatists brought it down on purpose that would be a war crime and a crime against humanity, if on the other hand separatists brought it down by accident then it would still likely be a war crime, but maybe not a crime against humanity
5.) (We still don't know anything, but...) Separatists may have acquired the capability to shoot the plane down... there was a social media post that they have... oh, but its been taken down
6.) (We still don't know anything, but...) The Russians may have supplied sophisticated weaponry to separatists
7.) (We still don't know anything, but...) If Russians have supplied the weaponry, they should be held responsible...
8.) (We still don't know anything, but...) How shall we punish Putin for supplying the separatists with sophisticated weaponry
9.) (We still don't know anything, but...) If he's responsible, we should block his attendance to the G20...
and so on and so forth.

Listening to the news, I can understand why you feel upset and are ready to call for a lynch mob.

Just remember, we still don't know anything! What's being reported as fact is based on such circumstantial evidence, that I think is crime in itself. Given that public opinion has such a strong influence on the outcome of this conflict, there is a lot at stake for all involved and should be afforded an impartial investigation to establish the facts. Achieving impatiality is a very challenging task in itself, and given the stakes, I strongly fear that the true facts of the case will never come to light.

What has happened is a tragedy, and my thoughts are with the families of the innocent victims, not only Australians, but of all the people on board that plane. However I find it very upsetting to hear reports of the incident presented as a forgone conclusion, because the consequences of said premature judgement may be much worse than the initial incident.

Just my $0.02 worth anyway.

Originally Posted by 1999td5

My family,
My Uncle, 2 of my nephews and my niece were on that flight!

Brings it right back home

Graeme

Graeme,
Thoughts are with you in this sad time. Nothing we can say will really help. Such a tragic waste by some moron with an itchy finger on the trigger.
Someone needs to be brought to account and for you and all the other families and friends of people on MH-17 I certainly hop this happens regardless of who it was.
Take Care
Craig