Thread: Ambulances and red lights.

What annoys me is not when people dont have room, that is not their fault, but when they do have room and do not move or pull out into the right lane in front of you.
Even on site, had a bus driver pull out in front of me on a mine site. The bugger sat and watched us coming from about 300metres away (station) and then waited until we were about 20metres away and pulled out causing us a 2 minute delay. Let us just say he did not work there by that afternoon.

We ,in the emergency services in Queensland,have had 2 criminally prosecuted for criminal charges that I can remember.One was an Ambo in Central Qld the other was a firie in Brisbane's south west.Both were acquitted.However it made the powers to be, issue an edict that all vehicles under turnout conditions stop at Red lights and stop signs.To come to a standstill caused more problems then it was designed to eliminate.I'll explain why...To start with on all Fire Appliances in Queensland their are 3 different sounds for the siren.."The yelp" "the wailer".and one I called "star wars", I cannot remember it's official term.The idea is to try and make enough noise to warn motorists on an on-coming Emergency Vehicle.At red lights and stop signs If the vehicle came to s a complete standstill,some motorists thought that the emergency vehicle in question was stopped so that they could then resume their right of ( the motorist) and took off accordingly which more often or not resulted in the big red truck and motorist coming to grief with the motorist coming off second best.Now because of the accident one firie was taken off crew and left at the scene of the accident( standing orders).We argued with our powers to be that a complete stop was folly all that was needed was to slow down and just keep the wheels removing check that the intersection was safe and clear to cross do so and proceed.It took us a while but we convinced the powers and the order was changed.
In reply to another answer on this thread on moving through heavy traffic caused by the incident to which the Emergency Vehicle is proceeding ,is to run the middle line of the road.There is sufficient width on our modern Australian roads for the vehicle to progress. I can remember one turnout in Sydney where 3 children were reported trapped in a housefire and the responding vehicle was hindered by narrow streets with cars parked on each side.The OIC made the decision because of impending loss of life and that kids were involved to smash his way through as there was no other way.Now the kids were as reported trapped and the lot were bought out by the firies.There was a furore afterwards by the enraged car owners but the act in NSW was followed by the OIC and in a subsequent investigation he was exonerated.I think the lesson in all this is " you can be damned if you do and damned if you don't.The same as applies to Emergency Vehicles when confronted by Red lights and stop or give ways signs.Commonsense should prevail on both sides.Remember it might, one day , be you the emergency vehicle is coming to assist.
John

Originally Posted by Disco44

I can remember one turnout in Sydney where 3 children were reported trapped in a housefire and the responding vehicle was hindered by narrow streets with cars parked on each side.The OIC made the decision because of impending loss of life and that kids were involved to smash his way through as there was no other way.Now the kids were as reported trapped and the lot were bought out by the firies.There was a furore afterwards by the enraged car owners but the act in NSW was followed by the OIC and in a subsequent investigation he was exonerated.

That was in Newtown. Cleaned the whole street up, both sides from memory. Typical inner city street, very narrow And as usual, the press had a field day

G'day Disco44

Yes, there are a couple of estates in the Caboolture area that would be similar in width, as some of the previous council's have allowed developers to build narrow streets, there is little hope of getting an appliance down them,that in turn with close proximity of houses leads to area destruction and injuries very similar to old inner city Sydney,they too will probably be gettos in 2089.



cheers

Emergency vehicles (Ambo's, Firies, Police, SES and RTA) have an exemption under the Road Rules so that the Road Rules don't apply. The catch is that their breach of the Rules is reasonable and they are taking care - all a bit grey, but there you go - if it was too specific life for these guys would be a nightmare, so they kept that bit simple.

If 'you' decided to breach a Rule in order to allow an Emergency vehicle pass, then that's up to you and you too have to take care and deem your action to be reasonable. So in the scenario posed, it would be fair and reasonable that the Rule (Stopping at a red light) would not apply.

IF you copped a pill from a red light camera, then your best approach would be to have a copy of the job record from the Ambo's and write away to the issuing Authority (in NSW, the State Debt Recovery Office - SDRO) seeking a caution. If this fails (they say no) then, have the matter heard before a local court. You'll have your first day (a Mention) for the matter to be 'mentioned'. This is your opportunity to tell the Magistrate 'i did it' (plea of guilty) and offer an explanation for your actions. I'd also offer the letter you sent and its reply from the SDRO and hopefully the Magistrate will pop a gasket at the insanity and have the matter dismissed.

The process is a PITA but that's the only go we have in 'camera' land. Secondly, you are required by law to move out of the path of an Emergency vehicle that is displaying red and/or blue lights whether or not it is sounding an electronic siren - so that would also be in your favour.

At the end of the day, what ever we do, for whatever reason, you are responsible for your actions when driving....you just need to be able to justify them.

As for people not moving out of their path - some (lots) don't know what to do, some freak out and can't make the decision, and some don't give a crap. Either way, the offence of 'not move out path of emergency vehicle' is rarely enforced because (for Police) they're usually on the way to an urgent job and can't stop and book the dope for not getting out of the way.

It's comforting? to hear its not just Sydney drivers....

Matt.

I just did the pursuit and urgent duties driver training in Goulburn just before xmas, not at all fun . We are taught that if the lights are red and there is no path through the traffic because the lights are red we turn the siren off but keep the lights flashing and as soon as the lights go green the sirens go back on and off we go. If its super urgent we have to seek permission from the Duty Officer on Police radio to cross to the wrong side of the road.

There is no requirement for you to move through the red light to let the ambulance, police or fire vehicle through. If you look both ways and there are no cars in site then by all means move to the left and let the emergency vehicle through as Mudmouse said, otherwise you wait until the light goes green and then move to the left as quick as you can.

Congratulations Matt.

It just highlights the contrast between the Legislation (Law - Road Rules) and a departmental policy. If the lights are left on, then they have to get out of the way (safely of course) and if you need to drive on the opposite side of the road to potentially save someones life, the Rules say you can, but a policy says you have to wait for a break in radio transmission, make the request, have someone in an office consider the 'risk' from the perspective of a 'desk' and get back to you to say 'ay or nay' - precious time when you're the one making the decisions based on your observations.

The Firies and Ambos don't have such a policy largely because EVERY job they respond to is urgent. I'm not critical of the policy, however it does leave some Police hamstrung and unable to, or delay the execution of their duty according to Law.

...would've been hot in Goulburn too I'd imagine.

Matt

well thanks for all this clarification...as much as it pained me to say it I would not move out of the way on a red light simply because the description you have given its easier to justify not moving then it is too move.

Don't get me wrong I'm very aware of the emergency services and when I first came to OZ it really infuriated me that no bastard pulled over for them and when they did it was like a rush to be the first person to pull out jump the que and get a free sail through the traffic while driving behind them.

Big lack of respect for what you guys do if you ask me.
in the UK you only have to hear (not see) and people are already pulling over. I guess the problem in the UK is though the roads are so narrow if they didn't they would never get through but at least the people in the UK respect that they pull out in exact same position as what they pulled in at