Thread: one for the young Greenies.

Originally Posted by Chucaro

And not to mention that now and extra billon of people are using cars and electrodomestics (China, India, etc)

Yes, but at least that topic is mentioned from time to time. Nobody mentions population, which in my lifetime has more than tripled - by the end of my life it may be five times what it was when I was born; an increase that previously took centuries.

And no, I don't have a simple solution - I suspect that economics will impose one, that is going to cause a lot of pain for a lot of people.

John

Originally Posted by JDNSW

I think you are wrong on that. It possibly applies in the USA and maybe even in a fewEuropean countries, but I would be very surprised if it applied in Australia or the world as a whole. Most food animals in Australia except poultry and pigs are fed most of their lives on grass (a minority with grain fattening), and the vast majority of Australian crops are for human consumption, mostly overseas. There is an unfortunate tendency by the Americans to assume that what applies in their country is the same worldwide, and then others outside the USA take these 'facts' and assume they are correct.

Think of the major grain producers (not exporters) in the world - USA, Canada, Argentina, Australia, Egypt, India, China, Ukraine, Russia - do you really think that most of this grain is used for feeding animals? Considering that the major exporting countries (USA, Canada, Argentina, Australia) sell almost all exports to countries that have low consumption of meat, such as China and India, this seems unlikely.

The elephant in the room that nobody mentions is the increasing world population - that is the root of almost every environmental problem.

John

OK - looks like ~40% of grain is used for animal feed worldwide. However in the US, an additional ~20% of grain production is used to make ethanol - mainly for transportation...


The elephant in the room was already mentioned previously in the thread.

Originally Posted by JDNSW

Yes, but at least that topic is mentioned from time to time. Nobody mentions population, which in my lifetime has more than tripled - by the end of my life it may be five times what it was when I was born; an increase that previously took centuries.

And no, I don't have a simple solution - I suspect that economics will impose one, that is going to cause a lot of pain for a lot of people.

John

The solution is not simple or fast to impose and is education and ignoring the "laws" imposed by regulated religion.

Originally Posted by isuzurover

OK - looks like ~40% of grain is used for animal feed worldwide. However in the US, an additional ~20% of grain production is used to make ethanol - mainly for transportation...


The elephant in the room was already mentioned previously in the thread.

A quick look at Wikipedia (for what it is worth) shows world total of fodder of all types about 635 million tons.

Grain production - wheat 682 million, maize 817 million, rice 679 million, Barley 148 million. That hardly looks like 40% to me, without even taking into account minor grains such as oats (24 million) and non grain animal fodder included in the fodder figure.

And going back to the original statement that "Most farmland is used to grow grain to feed to animals." this seems unlikely to be true - although there is also the question of how you measure farmland - you can't legitimately compare a hectare of marginal dryland wheat country with a hectare of bananas in NQ or a hectare of irrigated rice, or a hectare of market garden in the Lockyer Valley. So what did the original statement actually mean - if anything?

John

Originally Posted by JDNSW

A quick look at Wikipedia (for what it is worth) shows world total of fodder of all types about 635 million tons.

Grain production - wheat 682 million, maize 817 million, rice 679 million, Barley 148 million. That hardly looks like 40% to me, without even taking into account minor grains such as oats (24 million) and non grain animal fodder included in the fodder figure.

And going back to the original statement that "Most farmland is used to grow grain to feed to animals." this seems unlikely to be true - although there is also the question of how you measure farmland - you can't legitimately a hectare of marginal dryland wheat country with a hectare of bananas in NQ or a hectare of irrigated rice, or a hectare of market garden in the Lockyer Valley. So what did the original statement actually mean - if anything?

John

Plus 258 millon tons of soybeans.
The problem with grain production and specially soybeans is that is a very attractive crop and more land is cleared and dedicated to soybean production every year.
As a result some countries have less land dedicated to small crops and cattle wich in turns bring unemployment to rural towns and degradation to the environment.
Argentina is a good example of this problem with 18.9 million hectares, up from 18.6 million hectares estimated last week. The Rosario Grain Exchange is expecting the soy crop to total 49.5 million metric tons, the second-largest ever.
From 1995 to 2005 Argentina alone have an increased output of 216 percent.
Soon or later something have to give and will be the environment.

Originally Posted by Benz

I know allot has changed.

guess i was pointing out the mistakes made back when it was first cleared.

allot of what was done can't be undone so easily.

I think the point is they weren't mistakes at the time, that's how they fed themselves and others, that was the foundation of the economy and society today. That's where the taxes and money for the schools and universities came from, that's where today's greenies came from.

Ive said it before here and sound like a broken record. You want to stuff the environment? Have bad economic policy, maker people poorer. Every ideology, religeon, movement, you un-pick it and you find the same thing, people after money and power. Same thing, same people, same search for power it's the survival and procreation gene doing its job. He's got something I want/He wants what I don't want to give him.

Originally Posted by JDNSW

A quick look at Wikipedia (for what it is worth) shows world total of fodder of all types about 635 million tons.

Grain production - wheat 682 million, maize 817 million, rice 679 million, Barley 148 million. That hardly looks like 40% to me, without even taking into account minor grains such as oats (24 million) and non grain animal fodder included in the fodder figure.

And going back to the original statement that "Most farmland is used to grow grain to feed to animals." this seems unlikely to be true - although there is also the question of how you measure farmland - you can't legitimately a hectare of marginal dryland wheat country with a hectare of bananas in NQ or a hectare of irrigated rice, or a hectare of market garden in the Lockyer Valley. So what did the original statement actually mean - if anything?

John

I retract my previous statement and replace it with: "almost half of worldwide grain production goes to feed animals. After ethanol production is removed, the proportion of grain which goes to feed the planet is likely significantly less than 50%". [the previous statement was hasily written, and not quite what I intended to say]

The ~40% statistic was based on a 2008 report from the FAO (website is down at the moment so I cannot link). The 2008 report had a figure of 36% of worldwide grain production being used for animal fodder, with a growth rate of 2%pa on that figure. Hence close to 40% in 2012 would be expected.

Originally Posted by Benz

really?

not even going to waste my time

Please go ahead, waste your time to educate me.

Besides, I thought much of WA was disappearing overseas anyway.

Originally Posted by bob10

If I was crashed in the Andes, trapped on a frozen plateau. with a rugby team , I would gladly eat human if it kept me alive. [ start with the front row forwards, they never work hard, so would be tender. ] MMMMMMMMMMMMM.!, with Fava beans ![ and a little garlic] Bob

Just be thankful it's not a soccer team... I've heard they taste like women.

Originally Posted by Tank

If our Ancestors who lived in the trees hadn't come down to the ground and started eating meat the human race would not exist, Regards Frank.

I'm just grabbing some popcorn, and waiting for the Christians to show up. This is gonna be good.