this would make me very nervous, record gun sales in US

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Originally Posted by akelly

BLUF: It's legal to own guns for the purposes of sport - it is not legal to own them for 'protection'.

...snip...

Suffice to say, if your gun is kept in a safe (as the law requires) you are not going to be protecting anyone with it anyway. Unless you think you'll wake up in the night to the sounds of rubbish bins being knocked over, get up, open the safe, fit the bolt, load the rounds, rush outside... then what? Shoot someone armed with a knife? Fire blindly into the dark? Shoot a kid armed with a replica pistol? You'll be sharing a bunk with Bubba in no time...

Cheers,

Adam

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I get what you are saying and it probably all holds true for your place, or the average city house. But how do you know how effective my firearm will be or how much time I have to ready it in my individual situation? I am pretty sure you do not have the plans to my house or property. :o

As per my other post, this may very well be true for your place - your fence is left open, you have no dogs, your house is 6m from the curb of your street, your gun safe is in the opposite end of the house. Fine, point taken. Use a bat or a knife. I would too! A firearm's a dud option if your environment is against you.

But not everyone lives on top of each other in a city or town. Some of us live on property with dogs with plenty of notice if someone shows up in the middle of the night, and in the right scenario, a firearm is an effective deterrent. There is no guarantee I will always wake up if my dogs go nuts, so I am not going to argue a firearm is always the right answer either. There is no blanket judgement call on that.

By the way, I am pretty sure if a perp broke into your home with a replica pistol, and you shot, stabbed or wacked him in the face with a bat, you would have a solid claim to reasonable force - given replica pistols require a collector's licence, and in low light it would be reasonable for you to feel your life was directly threatened by a firearm. ;) Shoot someone with a knife or someone "outside" of your house and you are definitely going to see Bubba.

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Originally Posted by bee utey

The point being made is that unless you carry the gun fully loaded and cocked 24/7 you won't be able to use it in self defence if someone is coming rapidly at you. And if you do carry a loaded weapon around statistics suggest that the most likely victim of your gun is either you or a close family member. In a dark alley a knife is probably a better weapon than a gun, being silent and all that.

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Not to enter the "my stats are better than your stats" argument, but my understanding of the concealed carry issue is that it is effective in some States and less effective in others. The pro-carry guys quote stats from States where it is effective and the anti-carry guys quote from States where it has had little to no effect. I don't think there are any real stats around carrying increasing the danger to yourself? I believe that argument is more against home defense in the U.S. where there are lax storage laws (and people keep loaded firearms around the house) and people end up having their weapons used against them by perps or injure/kill themselves through an accidental discharge.

Thanks for your input Vanguard - good sensible stuff and the next comment is not directed at you, just a general comment.

This thread is heading the same way every 'gun' thread does: pro-gun chaps building and destroying straw men. I'm not anti-gun, I'm anti people who think guns are for protection.

As for stats about concealed carry making you less safe? Check here: VPC - The Violence Policy Center - Concealed Carry Killers You'll find plenty of family members, friends and 'bystanders' shot by trigger happy ****wads who want to live a 'dirty harry' fantasy by carrying a loaded weapon around in their pants

Cheers,

Okay cheers, Adam.

I'm not convinced carrying firearms in public is either needed or effective either, and I think the risk are too high. Not needed here in Australia. Maybe on the Gold Coast :p

My final comment is that a firearm probably is not the best choice for a lot of people, for home defense. However, as everyone's home/situation is different, there are scenarios where a firearm could be a good choice in the right circumstances. I certainly support giving people the option anyway.

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Originally Posted by Vanguard

Okay cheers, Adam.

I'm not convinced carrying firearms in public is either needed or effective either, and I think the risk are too high. Not needed here in Australia. Maybe on the Gold Coast :p

My final comment is that a firearm probably is not the best choice for a lot of people, for home defense. However, as everyone's home/situation is different, there are scenarios where a firearm could be a good choice in the right circumstances. I certainly support giving people the option anyway.

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Most balanced reasoning yet, thank you.:thumbsup:

Not really a credible source akelly. 200 shootings over 5 years. There are estimated to be 9000000 CCW permit holders in the US. That 200 includes cases that may have been legal but are "pending", and it also lists Jared Loughlin as a legal concealed carry holder when he actually committed felony fraud to obtain his handgun. It also contains domestic shootings at home which are irrelevant to the CCW argument if you're being honest.

But that was just a 5 minute look I had.

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Originally Posted by akelly

Thanks for your input Vanguard - good sensible stuff and the next comment is not directed at you, just a general comment.

This thread is heading the same way every 'gun' thread does: pro-gun chaps building and destroying straw men. I'm not anti-gun, I'm anti people who think guns are for protection.

As for stats about concealed carry making you less safe? Check here: VPC - The Violence Policy Center - Concealed Carry Killers You'll find plenty of family members, friends and 'bystanders' shot by trigger happy ****wads who want to live a 'dirty harry' fantasy by carrying a loaded weapon around in their pants

Cheers,

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Well, no one is forcing you to carry one. They are however forcing those that do want the option, not to carry one. Anyone would have thought that we were grown ups able to make mature decisions about our own lives. But thats right we are all good sheep who get told what to do and how to do it.

The trouble is a belief held by someone whether you consider it rational or not is what is true to them, so the protesters in Sydney today were acting in their belief rationally and with great justification in their view and nothing l or you or the police or the Prime Minister is going to say will sway them from that fact.

Same goes for gun control, gun ownership, 4wd ownership and use, large dogs, SUV's, world climate or large Super Trawler's cleaning out the oceans.

That is the issue we all have to face and deal with and that is why there is always more than one side in an argument and why very rarely anyone beliefs that they are in the wrong.

In a democratic society we believe that everyone has a right to an opinion and we believe that most opinions but not all opinions have a right to be expressed or acted on.

However in any society members have to comply with the majority view whether rational or not or face the consequences and that explains the NAZI party, communism, extreme Islamist and Prohibition era in USA.

History decides whether you are a terrorist or a Liberation fighter and it also helps if your side view won the war.

So Gun control is an issue where different societies have different views with the USA being the extreme of gun rights in the Western world and Australia in the left of middle saying guns needs to be controlled and restricted.

They say the reason for the difference between USA and Canada in the issue of gun control and gun use by public boils down to the history of their cultural and political development. The USA with the popular cultural view of the lawless West, rampaging Indians, Wild creatures requiring a man to own a gun to defend themselves in conjunction with the wording of their constitution to have an armed civilian population to act as militia as the USA colonies didn't have a standing army and Canada where the Mounties were the rule of law everywhere and lawlessness didn't have a popular cultural view among the population and England provided a standing army for defence.

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Originally Posted by homa1

the reality is that having a side arm does not guarantee safety, although you may feel safer alot of training is needed,

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a hell of lot of training is needed

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Originally Posted by akelly

The best part about CCW is that criminals don't have to break into your house to steal your guns, they just take them off you in the street! Saves on broken windows at home I guess.

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This has got to be the stupidest comment I have ever read.
First of all firearms have to be strictly locked up in a very secure safe which is bolted to the ground within your house, it isn't a break the window and you've got yourself a firearm.
Also there would be no way a criminal could simply steal a firearm off somebody, who has it concealed, on the streets.
I don't think you understand a concealed carry is there to protect that person's life.
If anyone was to even attempt some sort of robbery on them I'm certain that individual with the concealed firearm wouldn't take any chances.
Stealing a firearm out of someones own holster or hands would be one of the easiest ways of ending your own life, definitely not worth the effort and risk.