Thread: why dont they use rail?

Originally Posted by tony66_au

As a HV operator you are almost always doing something to avoid a bad situation and the main key to smooth and seamless operation is a simple technique ALL road users should apply called "Forward observation".

The more information you possess about the traffic around you the sooner you can plan your position on the road and the more aware you are of real and potential liabilities so you can avoid them with minimum fuss and bother.

When I was a signaller on the railway, I tried to keep drivers informed of what was happening, especially non-passenger train drivers. If I knew a coal train, for example, was going to be slowed by signals I'd let him know so that he could regulate his speed to avoid having to come to a stand (with the consequent long time to get rolling again). A loaded coalie takes a long time to stop and restart.

I'd also tell passenger train drivers so they could keep pax informed.

However, I'd worked with signallers who would never tell a driver what was happening unless the driver called them.

Originally Posted by woody

We had a an unwritten policy in the warehouse that if a load came in too early (taken from the printed consignment note) we would be too busy to unload the trailer until after the recommended travel time, including breaks was up.
Occasionally we would get a cranky driver but most appreciated the down time, especially when they could blame us for it.

Unlike other distribution centres we had a strong work and social ethic and believed what we were doing was protecting our own families and the greater community not some shareholders bonus.

We found that the biggest problem with rail was damages, as we were sending mostly shrink wrapped pallets the shunting and multiple handling was cause for concern.

woody

When I had line haul trucks one of the things that got right up my nose was the attitude of warehouse staff. They all seem to think that truckies have nothing better to do than wait around their yards. It seemed to me that if one arrived at a warehouse within half an hour of a break time then staff would either studiously ignore you, or just disappear until (often quite some time) after their break. Why they can't get stuck in and make a start on the job then finish after their break is beyond human understanding.

One would often hear an exchange on the company two-way between the despatcher at Marrickville and the truck. Along the lines of-

"where are you?"
"still at Fred's Foundry waiting to unload"
"what! you should have been out of there an hour ago. Smith's Grog are screaming at me about late delivery."
"the lazy ******* here are still standing around scratching their bums"
"I'll 'phone the warehouse manager and get up him"
"already have, just another useless lazy *****"

Having worked all sides of the argument...

The reason the rail doesnt get used is because it doesnt go where its needed when its needed and realistically almost anywhere with a carpark can be pushed into service as a roadhead if need be. But a train that needs a dedicated rail head infastructure, then you've got the delay of building a whole rail car consignment, getting all the cargo in one place then loading it all up then building up a whole trains worth of rail cars then sending it down the rail (and woe betied you if you try doing that in large scale with passanger cars as well) then undoing it all loading it into trucks to make it to the final point.

Most retailers view the delays that causes as unacceptable and theres also the common misconseption that in the event of any failure in the rail network that even further unacceptable delays will be caused because you cant just back up a train and take the back roads.

In reality it can be faster to load your cargo onto a truck at your depo then kick the truck on up the road to the delivery point.Oon the east coast you can do sydney to melb/bris/canberra as a same day service whereas mostly doing it by train usually incurs a days delay as well as you having to actually think and plan out around what the existing schedule is for the trains, essentially more work and that doesnt fit in with societies current "I want it now, and I dont want to wait or work for it" attitude. Fix that attitude First and you might see a return to cheaper but slower means of freighting which may then garner enough support to see our rail infastructure improved But dont count on that.

Think about this.

Everyone thought that the new improvements for the Sydney was a great thing because it ment that the flights could be faster and cheaper thing was though, no-one wanted to deal with the extra noise of the planes, they didnt want to be under the new flight paths, or to deal with the extra trucks to get the freight to the planes. Look at brisbane, was there any consideration put in place to utilise the rail service that was put in as part of the "Air-Train" service (which is more or less a dismal failure, it costs me less in terms of time and tickets to get from ipswich to the airport if I go by taxi) for freight?

Theres just as many truckers that cause issues for loadies as there are loadies that cause issues for truckies and in a lot of cases theres about a many customers/boses making life difficult for both by trying to penny pinch their way around responsabilities and requirement

Originally Posted by frantic

A lot of people have hit the nail on why rail is used far less for interstate transport; cost, time , storage are the main problems.
Cost may be changed over time as fuel prices rise but looking to u.k/e.u where they pay 50%+ per litre and have similar trucking issues , that will be a long way off unless legislated.
Time could be saved on the east coast by killing 4birds with one stone. A dedicated high speed passenger tgv/maglev Brisbane , Sydney Melbourne allowing dedicated rail for freight. Go look how close tnts main depot is to rail(cosgrove rd Enfield) this would not only speed up freight(bird1) it would reduce the need for a second airport in Sydney (bird2) reduce fuel burnt by both trucks and planes(bird3) and be far safer in the case of an accident, be it by bad loadin/overloading driver or equipment failure(bird4).
If you solve the time issue you solve the storage problem for the companies using just in time.
As to double handling, the same thing happens now with parcel freight companies, load into small pud in city , transfer to b-double to send to next state, unload to either a pud for capital delivery or onto another semi for regional distribution centre then into a pud.(pud= pick up delivery anything from a 1t van to 20ton rigid)
One other thing is that truckies are their own worst enemy now with a large number of owner drivers meaning they cannot afford to protest or strike as they risk losing their contracts and going bust. This has muted the voices that would have been raised about unrealistic schedules.

Agreed, a high speed train link up the east coast would be a great thing on a few levels and having traveled by train for the hell of it a few times in the last 15 years I can state that the current system as slow as hell and when the discount air fares were in play way too expensive.

It was also an unpleasant journey because of the people along the way.

The XPT which is supposed to be a high speed journey was anything but high speed on every occasion with enforced speed restrictions due to track issues and this was with passengers and not freight so the entire system would have to be replaced to go anywhere near efficient enough to carry the loads and to keep the speeds and times comparable with road freight taking into account the transport times from rail heads to the drop off points.

So heres the stumbling block, Who and how do we pay for this?

You cant have rail/road crossings so its all tunnels and bridges, New stations, new rolling stock and engines and in effect an entirely new system which would cost billions to set up, years to implement with cost blowouts and other complications and then there is maintenance overheads.

Fighting between State and federal gumbyments, cost offsets and the fights about who to lump with the offsets and then theres economic growth and shrinkage which would have a major effect on its viability and profitability.

Natural resources shipped via rail from site that are under threat from all sides be they environmental, Union or even the mining companies who have shown in recent times that they will pull the pin on supposedly done deals when they become economically unviable for one reason or another.

Trucks it is and im pretty sure that Trucks it will stay, Our laws re trucks have changed with time to allow them to operate ay 100 kph from the old school 80 kph, trucks and drivers are now regulated out the ying yang with tachographs, Driver monitoring hooked into the trucks themselves which in some cases shut down, GPS tracking allowing speed, location and all of the above in averages, Mass management pilot schemes allowing higher load weights and variations on logged hours and far better driver training that has ever been seen.

Companies spending money as legislated to train, review and improve drivers and billions spent on new trucks and trailers by the private sector in an attempt to improve the system from within.

So why doesn't it work as well as we would like it?

Roads for one, they are awful!

Not wide enough, bad design and management and nobody is spending the dollars consistently enough to keep the system in a reasonable state of repair let along making the system better.

The roads are the key for now, improve them, fund them and importantly maintain them.

Make them wider, add lanes and wider shoulders, make them drain better and build em with decent bases so they dont fall to pieces in the wet/dry/whatever and you will see reductions in accident, deaths etc.

The XPT which is supposed to be a high speed journey was anything but high speed on every occasion with enforced speed restrictions due to track issues and this was with passengers and not freight so the entire system would have to be replaced to go anywhere near efficient enough to carry the loads and to keep the speeds and times Quote

You are right on the Brisbane/Sydney linethe only section that I could work out that a little bit of steam could be had was the Newcastle/Sydney section.All the rest was up hill and down dale with far too many curves.Also XPT stops for freight to pass.Correct me if I'm wrong but that's how it seems to me.
John.

I travel regularly on the XPT between Sydney and Dubbo. It is reasonably comfortable, and, at least for me, compares favourably with the road journey, in that it is much more stress free, cheaper (Senior's concession, but probably would be anyway by the time you take into account parking in Sydney), and is far cheaper than air, although here the major difference is obviously travel time and less obviously that there is one service a day compared to a dozen or more by air.

I also note that almost all the distance west of Lithgow is single track, which makes any increase in freight handling problematic.

I travelled early last year from Yass to Melbourne on the XPT, and the major concern was that it ran several hours late.

John

Originally Posted by JDNSW

I travel regularly on the XPT between Sydney and Dubbo. It is reasonably comfortable, and, at least for me, compares favourably with the road journey, in that it is much more stress free, cheaper (Senior's concession, but probably would be anyway by the time you take into account parking in Sydney), and is far cheaper than air, although here the major difference is obviously travel time and less obviously that there is one service a day compared to a dozen or more by air.

I also note that almost all the distance west of Lithgow is single track, which makes any increase in freight handling problematic.

I travelled early last year from Yass to Melbourne on the XPT, and the major concern was that it ran several hours late.

John

Yes John it is comfortable but it takes around 16 hours from Brisbane to Sydney.Also the closer you get to Sydney the more young dickheads get on and sometimes they are hard to control and get chucked off.The fares are great for pensioners.
John.

My son is a civil engineer. He tells me that all new road bridges over rails in NSW will have to be designed and built to have clearance for double deck container wagons.

Dave is correct in that rail can not compete with road for general freight. Clients expect door to door in minimum time. Thirty years ago I was running four line haul trucks on Brisbane-Sydney shuttle, pick-up today, delivery next working day in the other city. Rail is good for bulk haulage, grain, mineral, shipping containers, and the like. A high speed long haul passenger rail service would have to compete on price with the airlines. In fact it would have to have a price advantage to offer against the longer travel time. Right now it is cheaper to fly between state capitals than to drive.

I have not used Qld. Railways freight services for many years. They used to be bloody hopeless. It once took four weeks to take a Land Rover from Rocklea to Cairns. Another time a Rover for Morven was unloaded and left in the Rockhampton yards. Not even going in the right direction. Another for Cloncurry was passed through to Mt. Isa and unloaded. In both these cases QR staff tried to hand the vehicles over to the local dealer. "It is a Land Rover. It must be yours." If YOU didn't record THEIR wagon number they could not trace the shipment.

QR freight reps were keen to get some of the mining equipment business. I would tell them that they needed to be able to do the same job as the road heavy haulage companies, minimum dismantling, and from Brisbane to the coal mines in two days, and no need for cranes at the other end. The 75 tonne dozers would have to be blade, pushbeams, trunnions, and tracks off to fit QR loading gauge. On top of this, they then had only two wagons on strength that could handle the job. Might take them a week or two to find one and get it to Brisbane. Brambles could put a dozer on their big self-steering float in the afternoon, take off first light next morning and be on the CQ coalfields that evening. I pointed out to the QR sales manager that the same dozers could be ordered from Chicago, put on a rail wagon to Long Beach, then a fast ro-ro ship to Brisbane and be here in 28 days with only the blade and push beams off.