Disco vs. Defender?

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Originally Posted by isuzurover

As has been stated, NCAP type testing is artificial and does not necessarily represent the real world.

A comprehensive and rigorous study of accidents in the UK between 2000-2004 showed that the defender (no airbags) was safer than all other cars and 4x4s on the road. Including the discovery (D1 at the time) and Merc ML.

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p...ps5e76ffd3.jpg
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p...ps5e76ffd3.jpg

Note that the study only looked at chance of injury to the driver - since the vast majority of vehicles are driven with a driver only and no passengers (hence the vast majority of crashes are the same).

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Looking at this type of data that is years old is not really worth a cracker today.

There have been massive improvements in vehicle safety over the last ten years or so.

As Rick130 has said,the best thing that could be done would be more driver training,education, etc ,for the nut behind the wheel.But unfortunately this doesn't look like happening any time soon .

I recently went to a BMW driver training course with a mate.What an eye opener,we both learnt a lot.A fantastic day,which should be mandatory for anyone with a drivers license.

I am on the road every day,and i continually see what these nuts do behind the wheel:(

As for the Defender,D3/4 comparison,in my view it is whatever rocks your boat.

If you like owning a defender,great,if you want a disco,great.

Difficult to compare two completely different types of vehicle,built for completely different uses.

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Originally Posted by TerryO

Still while both are good off road and have their own strengths and weaknesses. I must admit it's hard to go past the safety point that keeps being raised and many Defender owners keep scoffing at.

Below is a link to an accident that happened is SA when a drunk driver in a Audi driving at over 200 kph crossed a highway and hit a family of four head on in their Disco 3 doing about 100 kph in the opposite direction. This thread created lots of discussion at the time in the D3/4 section.
Anyway go have a look at the many pics taken by one of the forums members called Koos Best, who also owns a D3, then judge for yourself whether you would rather be in (and have your family in) a Disco 3/4 or your Defender in a similar situation.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/...-africa-4.html

One other point, someone commented that they didn't understand why a D3/4 is over a ton heavier than their Defender?

The answer is simple while your Defender may have a sturdy chassis, a Disco 3/4 also has a sturdy chassis and a full monocoque body, which basically means it has the best of both worlds in modern vehicle design when it comes to strength and safety, however this over engineering makes them heavy.
That is how a Disco 3/4 can have the body, from bumper to bumper, lifted off the chassis and it doesn't break in two or have the doors jam. Try lifting the body off of your Defender in one piece and see what happens.

It is rumoured the next Defender will be based on the T5 platform (same as the D3/4) if it is then new Defender owners will not only have a great vehicle off road but a much safer one on road.

cheers,
Terry

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Gotta say, and while I do have a soft spot for the Defender, looking at that link has just firmed up the Disco 3 as the next family vehicle. That accident was horrific. Thanks for posting the link.

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Originally Posted by TerryO

[snip]

The air suspenion on the D3 is far superior to any coil sprung suspended 4x4 I have driven by far, including late model Patrols and 100 and 200 series Cruisers.

[snip]

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Not doubting what you've felt for a second, but I'd reckon I could get a coil spring suspension to feel even better/more stable than air bags (and I plan on going with air bags on the 130, at least on the rear to start with)
In other words the spring medium shouldn't matter, although the inherent rising rate of a gas spring can work against you.
This is the reason air shocks such as Fox and King make aren't used on off road racers, only rock crawlers.

It all comes down to spring rates, roll rates, wheel travel, geometry and most importantly, damping.

terry now we are getting somewhere,
Rick has the benefit of 27 or so inches of wheel base. All discos are too short to be good at fast broken dirt second grade roads. ? ?

My old 130 with a pus bag tdi constantly amazes friends in new play does, 200s, etc etc (no one has fancy discos up here) with the average speeds it will hold on poor roads. Dunno what it is, i am not unsafe but the 130 sticks like glue throufgh broken corners and over washouts that others are slowing then accelerating for. ? ? ? On average i am the one waiting.

The only time i lose out is on the pdr where stupid speeds are possible and i refuse to do them on dirt

Next time your in the deep north we should head out and get you 3tonner stuck to the gillsin quick mud :-) dont stress ill just drive round you chain up and winch you out :-)

S

Ps
Uniball eye micro in black.
Only way to fly.
S

Good point Steve.
I keep forgetting how much is trailing away behind and it makes a difference.

I felt it immediately when I jumped into Serg's 110, and he noticed the extra length of the 130 as soon as he started to manoeuvre it into the street.

What a longer wheelbase does for you is slow down transients, it makes things feel slower and increases stability.

The shorter the wheelbase the faster it reacts to your input, but also the more reactive it is to the terrain too.

On really tight, switchback stuff a shorter wheelbase will be a faster vehicle, all things being equal.
On longer, more flowing and straight out fast corners a longer wheelbase is a huge advantage.

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Originally Posted by roverrescue

terry now we are getting somewhere,
Rick has the benefit of 27 or so inches of wheel base. All discos are too short to be good at fast broken dirt second grade roads. ? ?

edited ... :-)

Next time your in the deep north we should head out and get you 3tonner stuck to the gillsin quick mud :-) dont stress ill just drive round you chain up and winch you out :-)

S

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Ok Roverrescue thank you for the offer and believe me I'd be more than happy to look you up when I get a chance to get away from work long enough to head properly up north to visit the lovely spot where you live.

As you have raised this subject lets compare wheelbases and overhang between the two vehicles.

A 110 Defender has a wheel base of 2794 mm & overall length of 4785

A D3/4 has a wheel base of ............2885 mm & overall length of 4829

So a D3/4 has a longer wheel base and just a little bit less over hang than a 110 Defender. I'd guess that would come as a bit of a surprise for most reading this thread.

Can't wait to get those 32" muds on the old girl before the next off road jaunt with those sooky Fender boys. ...;)


cheers,
Terry

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Originally Posted by scarry

Looking at this type of data that is years old is not really worth a cracker today.

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Sorry, but I say that statement is complete BS. At the very least, those data show that there is a huge disparity between NCAP testing and the real world.

I don't think anyone would disagree that vehicle safety has improved a lot since 2004, or that a defender would suck in a heavy rollover, but how much that matters in the real world is another matter.

The other thing that is clear from the (overall) stats in the study (And other similar studies) is that mass/size is your friend. It is clear that it in an accident between a defender (or disco) and a 5-star rated small car, you want to be in the defender. Yet in NCAP type testing 4x4s often look worse than smaller car-type vehicles.


EDIT - A quick search reveals that ~half the cars on that list that the defender beats are 4-star ANCAP rated - same as the D3!!!

any time terry,
All Landy drivers are welcome out at the shed :-)
Your still short on wheel base.
Real fenders run a wheel base of 3225mm

Just the way it is

I do wonder if the d3 handling over a d1 or 2 is a function of that extra 300 or so mm of wheel base?

Steve

ive been waiting for someone in defence of the d3/4 to post this

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4U-yFmnu0sY]Range Rover Sport + Land Rover Discovery 3 / LR3 extreme steep climbing - YouTube[/ame]

cant believe anyone would attempt that with one hand blocking the sun from his eyes, :eek:

no doubt about it, those cars drive themselves !!

I'd have to be driving the whole way in the Defender, both hands , feet and brain in gear - but not into the sun

Still, fact is, I do prefer to do the driving !!