Disco vs. Defender?

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Originally Posted by manic

What if two cars are heading for a head on collision both traveling at 100kph. One is a D3 with its crumple zones, monoqoque body and bull bar the other a defender 110 with a steel ladder chassis anchored bull bar. Which one would you rather be in? You wouldn't want to be in either of course, and personally I would have to flip a coin. A solid defender would use the disco as a crumple zone and could rip through the disco, mount it and decapitate it - you just don't know.

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Very interesting comments Manic ....:eek:

You kind of completely missed the point altogether though, a D3 has a full chassis and a monogoque body bolted on top, as I said it actually has the best of both worlds when it comes to structural rigidity for its passengers..

You also assume that just because a vehicle doesn't crumple easy on the outside that its occupants are safer on the inside. Without crumple zones, airbags and collapsible steering wheels and columns etc most vehicles transfer the shock of a sudden stop into what ever is inside the vehicle.

You may have a slightly less crumpled vehicle but think of this for a moment, have a look at those pics of the inside of that crashed D3 from SA. Needless to say the airbags and other passenger safety aids did quite a lot to reduce the injuries suffered by the four passengers, possibly even saved their lives.

Can you list just one occupant safety feature other than a seat belt that any Defender has inside the cabin please?

cheers,
Terry

ohhh terry you make it too easy :-)
All fenders have the most significant safety device inside the cabin


The one on the tiller :-)

Steve

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Originally Posted by goingbush

ive been waiting for someone in defence of the d3/4 to post this

Range Rover Sport + Land Rover Discovery 3 / LR3 extreme steep climbing - YouTube

cant believe anyone would attempt that with one hand blocking the sun from his eyes, :eek:

no doubt about it, those cars drive themselves !!

I'd have to be driving the whole way in the Defender, both hands , feet and brain in gear - but not into the sun

Still, fact is, I do prefer to do the driving !!

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Yes Goingbush, that is an excellent video showcasing how good a D3/4 is at going places off road many other 4x4's struggle, by the way there is another utube video from Moesgatle that involves a Land Rover for those who have not seen it.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivlz6jRWmfg&feature=player_detailpage"]Accident @ Moegatle - Koos se Klim /Tsogwe - YouTube[/ame]


Luckily apart from someones pride no one was hurt.


cheers,
Terry

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Originally Posted by TerryO

Very interesting comments Manic ....:eek:

You kind of completely missed the point altogether though, a D3 has a full chassis and a monogoque body bolted on top, as I said it actually has the best of both worlds when it comes to structural rigidity for its passengers..

You also assume that just because a vehicle doesn't crumple easy on the outside that its occupants are safer on the inside. Without crumple zones, airbags and collapsible steering wheels and columns etc most vehicles transfer the shock of a sudden stop into what ever is inside the vehicle.

You may have a slightly less crumpled vehicle but think of this for a moment, have a look at those pics of the inside of that crashed D3 from SA. Needless to say the airbags and other passenger safety aids did quite a lot to reduce the injuries suffered by the four passengers, possibly even saved their lives.

Can you list just one occupant safety feature other than a seat belt that any Defender has inside the cabin please?

cheers,
Terry

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Actually, after 22years of crash and forensic investigations, I can tell you that the people in the defender would be most UNLIKELY to survive such an impact. The deceleration of such an impact would be beyond the bodies ability to survive, whereas the discovery with the crumple zones and airbags have a high possibility of not only surviving, but with relatively minor injuries by comparison.

Once you have seen the autopsies and results of sudden deceleration impacts you begin to understand how fragile, but also how resilient we are.

The truth is that car design, crumple zones etc are safer, strong rigid cars may have their uses, may stop animals from immobilizing you, but you are certainly not safe in them.

I don't trust statistics anymore, because they can be used to strengthen or weaken any argument without being truthful or representative in either case.

My experience is actual hands on experience, dealing with things you don't even want to imagine, and the people left behind.

I'm not going to argue whether the defender or disco is the better choice as its an individual decision and like politics, there will be no winner.....but you will never convince me it's a safe car, no matter who is driving, or what alleged good statistics you produce......

So go out and drive your individual vehicles, be it defender or disco, drive them safely, enjoy them, we are all land rover owners, and hopefully I, or someone like me, won't meet any of you professionally, but statistically, that's unlikely........unfortunately.

Cheers all.

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Originally Posted by bigkevg

Actually, after 22years of crash and forensic investigations, I can tell you that the people in the defender would be most UNLIKELY to survive such an impact. The deceleration of such an impact would be beyond the bodies ability to survive, whereas the discovery with the crumple zones and airbags have a high possibility of not only surviving, but with relatively minor injuries by comparison.

Once you have seen the autopsies and results of sudden deceleration impacts you begin to understand how fragile, but also how resilient we are.

The truth is that car design, crumple zones etc are safer, strong rigid cars may have their uses, may stop animals from immobilizing you, but you are certainly not safe in them.

I don't trust statistics anymore, because they can be used to strengthen or weaken any argument without being truthful or representative in either case.

My experience is actual hands on experience, dealing with things you don't even want to imagine, and the people left behind.

I'm not going to argue whether the defender or disco is the better choice as its an individual decision and like politics, there will be no winner.....but you will never convince me it's a safe car, no matter who is driving, or what alleged good statistics you produce......

So go out and drive your individual vehicles, be it defender or disco, drive them safely, enjoy them, we are all land rover owners, and hopefully I, or someone like me, won't meet any of you professionally, but statistically, that's unlikely........unfortunately.

Cheers all.

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Enough said on this me thinks, thanks for commenting on what is a very serious and important topic Kev.

Anyway thats it for me for now. The rest of you Defender owners can argue it out if a 90 or a 110 really is a real Defender or if only 130's are, as has been mentioned a few posts ago. ...:p

Or even better still, the two utube clips of the D3 and the Fender going up that little hill in SA could be discussed. ...:angel:

cheers,
Terry ;)

Some people just have to have the last word.

(why did I post that Moetgale video :o )

I still think a pen is better than a pencil :wasntme:

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Originally Posted by goingbush

[snip]

I still think a pen is better than a pencil :wasntme:

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Naa, a finger nail dipped in tar :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigkevg

Actually, after 22years of crash and forensic investigations, I can tell you that the people in the defender would be most UNLIKELY to survive such an impact. The deceleration of such an impact would be beyond the bodies ability to survive, whereas the discovery with the crumple zones and airbags have a high possibility of not only surviving, but with relatively minor injuries by comparison.

Once you have seen the autopsies and results of sudden deceleration impacts you begin to understand how fragile, but also how resilient we are.

The truth is that car design, crumple zones etc are safer, strong rigid cars may have their uses, may stop animals from immobilizing you, but you are certainly not safe in them.

I don't trust statistics anymore, because they can be used to strengthen or weaken any argument without being truthful or representative in either case.

My experience is actual hands on experience, dealing with things you don't even want to imagine, and the people left behind.

I'm not going to argue whether the defender or disco is the better choice as its an individual decision and like politics, there will be no winner.....but you will never convince me it's a safe car, no matter who is driving, or what alleged good statistics you produce......

So go out and drive your individual vehicles, be it defender or disco, drive them safely, enjoy them, we are all land rover owners, and hopefully I, or someone like me, won't meet any of you professionally, but statistically, that's unlikely........unfortunately.

Cheers all.

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In a head-on, crumple zones in either vehicle reduce the impact forces on both.
The end result of forces felt by the occupants (airbags excluded) is in the ratio of vehicle mass.
Acceleration = Force/Mass. The force is the same.

Put simply, in any head on, the heavier vehicles occupants take less impact. You put any 5 star 1 ton car head on into a 1 star 2 ton 4wd and the 4 star difference becomes very insignificant.

Fine one more bite.

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Originally Posted by TerryO

Very interesting comments Manic ....:eek:

You kind of completely missed the point altogether though - nope don't think so.

You also assume that just because a vehicle doesn't crumple easy on the outside that its occupants are safer on the inside. Without crumple zones, airbags and collapsible steering wheels and columns etc most vehicles transfer the shock of a sudden stop into what ever is inside the vehicle.
You assume that I assumed that. Example was a head on collision between a def and disco at the same speed, in that situation I'm well aware that the disco makes for an excellent crumple zone.

You may have a slightly less crumpled vehicle but think of this for a moment, have a look at those pics of the inside of that crashed D3 from SA. Needless to say the airbags and other passenger safety aids did quite a lot to reduce the injuries suffered by the four passengers, possibly even saved their lives. The Audi had many airbags too. For the most part the disco occupants were saved by the mass and size of their car. Of course it is better to have the air bags, but clearly they will do next to nothing for you if you crash head on into a heavier object at high speed.

Can you list just one occupant safety feature other than a seat belt that any Defender has inside the cabin please? In a big slow defender sensible driving with a seat belt is all you need. I drive smaller cars at faster speeds with ABS, Stability control, wrap around airbags , pre-tensioners and all that and I am not as safe - look what happened to the Audi!

cheers,
Terry

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If a defender suits your needs but you are so worried about your safety on the road that you would completely rule it out then you might want to consider not driving on the roads at all.

All the safety features in my Brothers ANCAP 4 star rated 4x4 did not stop his wife & unborn child being killed in a crash on the Calder a few years ago.