Disco vs. Defender?

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Originally Posted by roverrescue

No one in their right mind could possibly assume a defender would be 'safe' in a head on at combined speeds approaching 200+km/h but those type of accidents are thankfully exceedingly rare - and choosing a vehicle that has the majic 5 numbers on the chance you will be in one of those accidents is not logical - and if you were in such an accident it is NO gaurentee of survival either (Audi A4 driver point in case)

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In an head-on crash, impact speeds don't add, they average. With each vehicle gaining or losing half of the total momentum.

Equal vehicles head on at 100km/h each is the same as each hitting a wall at 100km/h.
Equal vehicles head on, one at 150km/h, the other at 50km/h is again the same as each hitting a wall at 100km/h. But immediately after both vehicles will be doing 50km/h in the direction the faster one was headed.

2 ton vehicle meets 20 ton truck at equal speed, the shared momentum drops the trucks speed by 10% and increases the vehicles speed by 900% in the other direction.

Of course no crashes follow these rules exactly. Most involve evasive action which makes crashes at the least offset with greatly reduced speed.

I just missed a prado take on a maxima at an intersection I lived near. Both vehicles entered at 50 and hit the brakes when they realised they both wanted the same space. Final impact speed was probably 10km/h on each vehicle.

Worst case is the unbeleivably stupid (overtaking blind) or unbeleivably inattentive (driver from another country on the wrong side of the road). The latter here gets in the news about once a year.

Hi Roverrescue,

The thing is we aren't comparing any other Ancap rated vehicle like a Audi here, where comparing a D3/4 and a Defender, so the accident is relative.

Yes that kind of accident is at the extreme, but why I showed it was because a family of four got out of such a extreme accident relatively unscathed where as the Audi owner ended up as mince meat literally.

Would a family of four in a Defender having a head on at the usual 100 kph with another vehicle on a country road be its safe? I'll put it another way if there was a head on between a Defender and a Disco 3/4 which one would you prefer to be driving and have your loved ones in after looking at those crash pictures?

Robocop (a Policeman)who comments in that thread stated he has been to many nasty crashes with dead people and that is why in part he sold his 110 and bought a new Disco, so his family would be safer.

To sum up if that family in South Africa came out of that horrendous crash in the condition they did then the Disco is a very good thing. We all know owning any vehicle isn't just about how safe your vehicle of choice is, there are many other factors that make us decide why we buy certain vehicles. But in this thread the difference in safety between the two vehicles is stark and many Defender owners carry on like it means nothing.

cheers,
Terry

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Ancap ratings and 60 gazillion airbags are all well and good certainly has helped but...
Marketing works really well when asking the question about your loved ones.

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Apologies but the above was where I assumed you meant that ANCAP was a marketing ploy. And I thought that you were having a go at the statement my wife made regarding safety. Combine a long day and a comment about someones wife and yeah, I do get insulted and angry.

I admit to trying to have some fun on the forum and occaisionally stirring the pot with people. So apologies if I have offended as well. It is hard on a forum to get your whole point accross and one shouldn't assume that anyone else has no experience or done any research into an area.

I have had two defenders and both of them have been great vehicles. In my opinion though, they are less safe than my D2 due to its safety rating that includes airbags and crumple zones. And yes it has a steel bullbar and can plough wildlife into the ground

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Re-read roverrescue's post no.43,as an Ambulance officer who's attended many crash's his post is spot on,also there's no difference between a three star and five star vehicle in a crash but if it makes you feel better having 5 stars all the power to you,it's your money,your vehicle and your family. Pat

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From the ANCAP website Car safety ratings | Car star ratings | Car ratings - ANCAP:

In an ANCAP 3 star rat ed vehicle, the prominence of Orange (Marginal) in the driver's head, chest, upper legs and lower right leg indicate a moderate risk of serious injury or death. The passenger fares better than the driver, with good protection of the head and lower left leg (Green). Yellow (Acceptable) in the torso, upper left leg and right lower leg of the passenger indicates a lower risk of serious injury.
ANCAP does not recommend purchasing vehicles with less than 4 stars.

In an ANCAP 5 star rated vehicle, the prominence of green (Good) in the head, body and legs, illustrates a high level of protection and survivability for both driver and passenger occupants. Yellow (Acceptable), on the lower legs, and the chest of the passenger, shows only a slight chance of serious injury to these areas, which are not likely to be life threatening.
ANCAP recommends consumers look for 5 star rated vehicles when buying a new car.

Analysis undertaken by the Monash University Accident Research Centre has shown that there is a good correlation between the ANCAP crash test results and the vehicle's actual real world performance as measured in the Used Car Safety Ratings. International studies have shown cars that perform better in crash tests provide better occupant protection than vehicles that perform poorly in crash tests; A US study found a driver is 74% less likely to die in cars rated good than cars rated poor in car to car head on crash of two cars of similar mass. A Swedish study also found cars with three or four stars are approximately 30% safer than cars with two stars

It seems that both Monash University and the 'injuries' sustained by the crash test dummies disagree with your statement.

Just so you know, I also work in Emergency Management and my partner is an experienced Ambulance officer so I do have some background in the area. She has been to plenty of accidents to where motorcyclists have been killed. Speed and or alcohol were a major contributing factor in the majority of them. Have you ever tried to ride a DR650 over 120kmh? I agree that motorcycling is dangerous and I should not have brought it up in a safety focus argument. But as I stated, life is about managing the risks you see as the most important. I don't smoke, drink or take drugs but choose to ride a motorbike in the safest way possible.

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Originally Posted by TerryO

Hi Roverrescue,

The thing is we aren't comparing any other Ancap rated vehicle like a Audi here, where comparing a D3/4 and a Defender, so the accident is relative.

Yes that kind of accident is at the extreme, but why I showed it was because a family of four got out of such a extreme accident relatively unscathed where as the Audi owner ended up as mince meat literally.

Would a family of four in a Defender having a head on at the usual 100 kph with another vehicle on a country road be its safe? I'll put it another way if there was a head on between a Defender and a Disco 3/4 which one would you prefer to be driving and have your loved ones in after looking at those crash pictures?

Robocop (a Policeman)who comments in that thread stated he has been to many nasty crashes with dead people and that is why in part he sold his 110 and bought a new Disco, so his family would be safer.

To sum up if that family in South Africa came out of that horrendous crash in the condition they did then the Disco is a very good thing. We all know owning any vehicle isn't just about how safe your vehicle of choice is, there are many other factors that make us decide why we buy certain vehicles. But in this thread the difference in safety between the two vehicles is stark and many Defender owners carry on like it means nothing.

cheers,
Terry

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As you know, there's far more to a purchase decision than just safety, it's but one aspect in the overall weighting, and for most of us basic economics plays a huge part.

How much weight you give 'safety' depends very much on your personality. If I was really serious (fearful ?) about my own safety I'd ditch the Defender and buy a new 79 Series or GU ute with airbags, or an Amorak/BT50/Ranger tomorrow

I'm taking a punt, 90% of the time it's just me in the car.

If I was strapping a 5 and 8 year old in regularly, that view would more than likely change.

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Originally Posted by gusthedog

..........motorcycling is dangerous..........

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I can't really comment from a great position of experience on riding motorbikes, as I got my license at 17 back in the UK but have never ridden one since. The reason being that at 18 I had to go into hospital for an operation, and as my father was in the RAF at the time, it was a Services hospital that I went into (jumping the NHS queue!). In my time in that opthopaedic ward, and I was there a couple of weeks, there were a number of bike crash victims that came in and out, and a couple of guys that were there for the duration.

I saw enough things there to put me off motorbikes for life.

I'm not going to bother giving my opinion on Discovery v Defender, as I don't feel the need to justify my purchases and it has already been done to death, however, I will say that it is the Defender that I would like, but it is the Discovery that I should have.:D

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Originally Posted by rick130

Hahahaha, very selective Terry and I like the twists on the conclusions, but why keep trying so hard to justify your purchase decision ?
What is it that drives you to continually show that a Disco3, the car you purchased is 'better' than a Defender ?

Hmm....

Post # 34.

There endeth the lesson :p

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I'm not trying to justify owning a D3 Rick, rather just having some fun mocking you Defender owners who love to bite.

You were involved in the earlier similar discussion on this topic in the D3/4 section, apart from me stirring the pot hardly a D3/4 owner bothered to get involved, yet the thread was full of Defender owners saying why their vehicles were better.

Same thing has happened here, basically take Gus and I out of the discussion and there are only staunch Defender owners defending their vehicle of choices honour.

Mind you all joking and ribbing aside I can't believe some of the comments being made about safety as if it means bugger all. You yourself have justified the Defenders lack of safety levels because they are designed as a work horse and not meant as a family vehicle.

That's fine if it was true, but very few Defenders owners I know use them as work horses, nearly all are family vehicles.

Given that I'm not sure what lesson you were trying to give?

LR gets round the standard passenger safety requirements by selling them as 'work vehicles' even though they know most are bought as family transport and will never be used for work.

By the way did you actually look at the link with the pictures of the crash between the Audi and the D3?


cheers,
Terry

When the timing is right I will purchase one of these :)

Saluki | JE Engineering

The problem with safety is there is no limit. There can always be more padding imposed, at far greater inconvenience, to make things "safer".

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Originally Posted by gusthedog

Apologies but the above was where I assumed you meant that ANCAP was a marketing ploy. And I thought that you were having a go at the statement my wife made regarding safety. Combine a long day and a comment about someones wife and yeah, I do get insulted and angry........

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No harm done;) No insult intended.

Ride a bike to work daily also, sometimes rely on a quick getaway to stay out of others apathetic driving attitude.

Without trying to take the thread even more off track and just my own personal reflection.

There are quite a number of us here involved in trauma/ medical area with some very sad experiences to reflect on.
For Me the strongest influences from these have not been the car I drive but rather to my driving style,attitude and vehicle loading/ setup.

Cheers

Perhaps the Disco owners are talking up their vehicles to reduce their terrible depreciation, hoping Defender owners will buy their second hand Discos when they buy new D4s. :o

Nobody has mentioned the depreciation of Discos compared to Defenders. Discos go out of fashion once a new one comes out. Defenders never go out of fashion, or maybe never were in fashion. ;)

To go from four star ANCAP to five you simply need a beeping seatbelt warning instead of just a flashing one.

Jeff

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